I went to the K-zoo show. I shot a LOT of bows. I've got to say I just don't see the value in the high price big name bows. Now I'm new to all this trad stuff, but I just couldn't see the difference between a plain jane $900 bow and a $450. Is there some reason for the high price that illudes me? Or is it just a name. Anyway just wondering what I'm missing. :confused:
I was given my first recurve, but my second recurve was bought, and it was only 200 dollars. A 55# greatree deer master take down. I have 5 traditional bows, including the martin hunter($489), some "antiques" and a u-finish bow. And the greatree is still my favorite:)! It has been my understanding that the reason some bows are so expensive is because of the woods contained in the bow. My take down is only black walnut and maple. No exotics, my hunter has some exotics in there. SO I would be willing to bet that is why? Just my theory!
Buy a $450 bow then buy a $900 bow. You'll see the difference.
OR
Go buy all the equipment, spend a year learning how to build one, spend 60 hours making one then tell us what YOU would charge.
The word Custom usually implies CUSTOMER. That being said, the customer has a say in how his or her bow is going to look with the choice of different options.
Wood type accent stripe, tips, core the list goes on. You can keep it as simple as you want or go with all the bells & whistles. When it comes down to it. It's up to YOU >------->
I used to think the same way until I got my first custom bow built to my exact specifications. The bow feels more like an extension of your arm rather than feeling like your just holding a bow.
I have a few good friends who are bowyers and the talent it takes to turn a piece of wood into a beautiful and efficient hunting tool is amazing!! My hats off to the builders who are still doing it "one at a time" all by hand with no CNC machines.
It goes far beyond just getting a general shape that flings an arrow. Tillering limbs based upon your shooting style, hitting the desired draw weights, shaping the bow for maximum performance all requires much skill and effort. Not to mention buying a product that will get personal attention should something go wrong.
Lastly, I really feel it is important to buy from our local small business owners. They are like you and me, trying to make a living in this great country during times that are tough. Supporting the local economy is going to make our country better in the long run. :thumbsup:
My answer is a question of comparison. What's worth more a manufactured home or a custom built home of equal size? Same principal.
I know special wood costs more. Just saying I couldn't find much difference in bows that were similar style...60" 50# r/d longbow nothing special woods. One costs $900 the other costs $500 or so. Neither was made custom for me. Just a bow off the rack.Both looked great. Nice finish, nice sanding, darn good looking bow, well constructed..etc. I'm not naming names or anything just wondering what in general makes the price go up so much higher. I know the old saying "You get what you pay for" but sometimes you do pay for a name.
truthfully? There is no difference. I've built a few bows and have owned some "custom" bows and a few off the shelf bows. Many times the production bow shoots as well as a custom bow.Find what you enjoy shooting well and have fun.
They are all worth what the bowyer charges. That being said I have had some 1000.00 bows that I did not feel were worth it and I have had some 500.00 bows that I felt like they were worth alot more. The price doesn't make the bow good or bad. What you have to do is shoot em all before you look at the price and then decide. I have had quite a few bows and the best have been in the 500 600 dollar range. What someone else considers the holy grail may be a dog to you. Value isn't summed up in price. Ymmv.
I have owned several bows. At the moment I own 2 tomahawk takedown bows and 2 custom bows from not so well known manufactures cactus cal and Shane Hyme and a really inexpensive production bow. I shot the manufactured bow all last summer. And I shoot my Shane Hyme non stop since I got it back from refinishing. I would never give up the bow that I only paid $550 for. It shoots just as good as my tomahawks if not better. And in all honesty my production bow that only cost $125 shoots pretty good. It does have some hand shock but it is also a 68" almost flat bow. So in the end it just comes down to what you like. So try em all and pick the one that fits you best. So just shoot until you find a manufactuer that fits your style.
The little details in a bow end up making a big difference in the total cost. As an example, one bow might be built with red elm limbs. Another might have bamboo cores with red elm veneers. At first glance they might look very similar, but there will be a difference in how they shoot. Did you notice the overlays on the front and the back of the riser? How about the tips? Glue lines? Subtle curves in the riser, detailed shaping of the grip, two wood combos, etc., etc. What kind of finish is on the bow and how will it hold up over time? Just the finish itself can run over $100 per gallon. And it is hard on spray guns that have to be replaced constantly.
Then throw in the details of design that can't really be noticed without shooting. Smoothness of draw, speed, and pointability are all functions of well thought out and tested designs that take much time and effort to develop.
Until you have shot a number of bows for extended periods it may very well be difficult to see much difference in some of the details. But they are definitely there, and most bowyers are grossly underpaid for the quality of work they produce. In the end, add it all up and buy what makes you happy! :thumbsup:
I paid Steve Turay of Northern Mist $500.00 for my custom, made for me, Baraga Longbow. The materials, colors, draw weight, etc were picked out by me.
It is by far the smoothest bow I have ever shot.
Ahhh... I got ya. ;) I thought you were referring to why customs cost more than a factory bow.
One other aspect is, Kzoo is a great place to get the initial "feel" of a bow (eg. grip, smoothness and other basics). BUT at 10 paces, every bow seems fast and will hit where you look with a reasonably close arrow.
Eric
QuoteNow I'm new to all this trad stuff, but I just couldn't see the difference between a plain jane $900 bow and a $450. Is there some reason for the high price that illudes me?
I tend to agree with you. I cannot tell the difference performance wise in most cases and I wonder how many of us would know the difference in a blind trial.
Does the name have something to do with it? Definitely. BUT, a bowyer had to have a great product to establish that name/reputation.
Its like buying a painting. There are amazing painters whose paintings are worth nothing. You can pick them up at craft shows. Then there are established painters who have galleries for their work and charge thousands. Both are functionally the same, they fill up space in your house and tie the room together. There is intangible quality that comes with owning that famous painter's work.
I could never justify buying a $900 bow. However, seeing some of these bows at the show made me realize their worth, especially when you meet the man that made it. I could just see the hours that went into some of these bows to make them as perfect as possible.
There is a lot of pride that comes with that, and that pride carries over from bowyer to customer.
I guess my point is that, functionally you do not always get more for the money. But there ARE other things people are willing to pay for.
A person new to trad who only shot one or two bows will most likley not be able to tell the difference. I made the same comment a few years back but now I will have to say I can tell more than I did and shooting a bow at 7 yards is hardly a fair test.
It's funny....Denny Strugis and I were talking yesterday about how different the osage longbow "feels" than the other exotic woods. More snap in it. I guess you just have to have a feel for it, or be conscious of the differences.
The most important part is that your arrow its the mark. I'm sure alot of the extra costs are, as Whip and others said, the "options" we choose.
Most of these bowyers are "artists" and the beauty of the work is what you pay for - I'm sure there are 700 dollars bows which shoot as well as a 1500 dollar bow but they don't look the same. Some people don't buy exspensive art for their homes as well and are happy with a beer sign - to each his own. I do not own a bow over 600 bucks, that's just me, if I win the lottery, maybe I'll think about it some more.
John, I felt the same way a couple of years ago, but now that I have shot and owned a dozen or more different custom bows.
I now know that is not true. Some of what your are paying for is craftmanship and the special woods, but the design and construction of a truely custom bow is well worth the money spent.....IMO
QuoteOriginally posted by Whip:
The little details in a bow end up making a big difference in the total cost. As an example, one bow might be built with red elm limbs. Another might have bamboo cores with red elm veneers. At first glance they might look very similar, but there will be a difference in how they shoot. Did you notice the overlays on the front and the back of the riser? How about the tips? Glue lines? Subtle curves in the riser, detailed shaping of the grip, two wood combos, etc., etc. What kind of finish is on the bow and how will it hold up over time? Just the finish itself can run over $100 per gallon. And it is hard on spray guns that have to be replaced constantly.
Then throw in the details of design that can't really be noticed without shooting. Smoothness of draw, speed, and pointability are all functions of well thought out and tested designs that take much time and effort to develop.
Until you have shot a number of bows for extended periods it may very well be difficult to see much difference in some of the details. But they are definitely there, and most bowyers are grossly underpaid for the quality of work they produce. In the end, add it all up and buy what makes you happy! :thumbsup:
Well said Joe! I think the answer is in the details!
I think what he was asking is. Two bows with the same design,same woods but one is priced 400 and the other is 900.And they both shot the same.Why the price difference. Its not a custom vs factory bow.
As others have said, the price goes up as you pick your woods, accent stripes, and so on.
One thing that I take into consideration is how the bowyer/company stands behind their bows. Customer service is worth a premium to me.
Other have said it already and I will agree. DETAILS make a price worth paying. If you can hit the mark with you $450.00 bow then that is what you should shoot.
As kat said how they stand behind there work is worth a lot as well.
It is the same with many items including bows, arrows, quivers, guns, optics, tents, stereos, TVs, automobiles, and more items than I could ever list. Each product in a category does most of what you would need such an item to do. I can see out of a $200 pair of binoculars well enough to do most things, but I have paid $2000 for a great pair. What's the difference? I know the difference and to me it is worth paying far more, but I could have done about as well with the cheaper binoculars. Just about any car would get me from my house to work and back, so why would I pay tens of thousands of dollars more for a particular vehicle? I think we all know the answer to that. Same thing with a bow. There are very significant differences between most bows that cost $500 and those that cost double or triple that amount. I have found that the last 10% of benefits are usually more expensive than the first 90%, often by multiples. Only you can decide whether the cost is justified.
Some bows offer far more than what their price reflects. For example, I think Chad-Holm (Holm-Made bows) makes bows that are huge bargains for the money. I can't believe he can build such a nice bow and even make a profit. Most bowyers, even the ones selling their bows for the highest prices, are not making much in profit. The increased prices usually reflect more expensive materials, more labor, or higher equipment costs. All of the custom (or semi-custom) bows are bargains when you factor in what it takes to produce and market them.
The most expensive bow I own is the most beautiful, but it is not the one that I shoot the best. There are some people who think this make of bow is the best shooting one around. I wanted it because it looked the best to me, not because it shot the best for me, and I was willing to pay a lot to get it. Most of my bows are a combination of what I think shoots best and looks best. Those bows get expensive too.
Can a bow for under $500 satisfy a hard core hunter? Sure. If I had to hunt for the rest of my life with only a $450 Holm-Made Osprey, I would be happy. I know there are other bows out there that are huge bargains like the Holm-Made bows.
Allan
YA GET WHAT YA PAY FOR :readit:
To a new or average violinist, a fiddle looks and plays as well as a Stradivarius. ;)
QuoteCan a bow for under $500 satisfy a hard core hunter? Sure. If I had to hunt for the rest of my life with only a $450 Holm-Made Osprey, I would be happy. I know there are other bows out there that are huge bargains like the Holm-Made bows.
Well said. I feel the same about my Bamas. To say that you just get what you pay for is selling a lot of fellas short.
However, I also agree with T Folts and Orion. As you become more experienced and advance in skill your tastes change. You notice little things. I know I'm not anywhere near that point with archery yet. It took me at least 5 years of playing guitar to figure out what I preferred.
To many folks want to make it seem like some mystical thing.If the price of the bow dictated the preformance of the bow, then all the great shots would be shooting the highest priced bow on the market. That's the logic that is being thrown around here, even though it's far from the truth.
Like I said shoot what makes you happy and what you can consistently hit with, if it's a 1500 dollar bow or a 150.00 bow doesn't matter. It's not the bow it's the shooter!!!
QuoteOriginally posted by Orion:
To a new or average violinist, a fiddle looks and plays as well as a Stradivarius. ;)
bad example, I dont even know anyone that owns a stratavarious! lol, jk, actually a good example
From what I hear, you aren't the only guy at Kzoo to experience STICKER SHOCK! :biglaugh:
Yep, its the experience of the archer that makes one more likely to notice the subtle diffences between the bows, and they then decide if those differences equate to dollars and cents. I've been fortunate to travel with a bowyer to many shows, expos, rendevous, and gatherings and have shot thousands of different bows. I feel differences in bows. I look at how the bow is finished, and listen to how the bowyer treats his customers. Then I decide if it is worth the extra money or not. Two bows that are the same or close I might pay more just because the bowyer acts the way he does, and his reputation carries with the value of the bow.
When I first got into trad equipment I was loaned a high dollar custom recurve to try. I couldn't afford one then and shot the loaner for several months. Then I purchased an inexpensive, but name brand production line recurve as my own. The difference was amazing and immediately discernible. Now I shoot custom bows made by true artists and craftsmen and I won't go back. Hell, I wouldn't be surprised if the engineering skills of a traditional bowyer rival those that design all the contrivances that go into a compound device. Takes a ton of ciphering to get the proper results for the individual's particular design. Lot's of wasted time and material, too. In my mind a custom bow from a reputable artisan is worth every penny.
I'll have to agree 100% with Biggie's first post. Right on the money !!!
It's OK... Buy the one you like and be happy. We all have a different shade of happy. Some have a top-shelf happy index and some are just happy...
todd
I like Orion's violin analogy. And amar911 is right on the mark - you can make the same comparison with almost any piece of merchandise. Knives, custom pool cues, custom golf putters. I have what I think is a nice hunting knife, it has gut many a deer, it holds a good edge and does what I need it to do. I suspect I'll have it until I loose it or die. Would a high dollar Randall knife be any better for my use? Probably not, I'm not into knives and the subtle differences in weight and balance and all the other custom features would be lost in my inexperienced hands. Someone into high quality custom knives would be able to see and feel the differences right away and be willing to pay it. I can't be an aficionado in everything, I choose custom traditional bows.
Another point to consider is that some of the bowyers are rather new and somewhat unknow. Not saying that they don't make a high quality product, just that they are relativley new to the industry. If I am looking for a new recurve and Jim Bob Bows has their recurve for sale at $1000 and Bob Morrison and Black Widow are selling their bows for $1000, I am buyin' a Morrison or a Widow. Now once ole Jim Bob has made and sold a boxcar load of bows and his bows and customer service have been proven, I might consider a Jim Bob. Most anyone starting in business has to sell their product at an extremely competitive price to get their product "out there". Once it has proven itself and the orders begin to back up, the price will raise. My take on it anyway!!!! Mike
Now I'm new to all this trad stuff, but I just couldn't see the difference between a plain jane $900 bow and a $450.
Like you said your new to this. The range was only ten yards at the show. :saywhat:
The reason that bowyers consistently sell bows for $900, $1000, $1500 or more is because they can! They have earned the right to do so. Their product has earned s reputation as a solid performer, they back their product, they use quality materials, they have great resale value, etc.
If you are starting out and can't justify the investment in a new custom bow, I would recommend that you buy a used custom. You will get the noticeable performance improvement at the price you are looking for. If you get a fair deal, you will probably get your money back if you choose to upgrade.
I think one of the biggest problems IMO is that alot of the bows at the show are just strung up and you go shoot some close to right arrows and it can be very misleading when you shoot a untuned bow with the wrong setup .I have over the years learned how much better a bow can shoot tuned in right. I think with the right setup you would see a huge difference in preformance.
I remember wondering the same thing when I was new at this traditional archery thing. I was shooting a few different bows, still didnt know much about tuning and arrows, and thought, a bow is a bow is a bow.
That was until I shot my first custom longbow. I went to Kazoo and flung arrows out of a bunch of 'em. Most felt similar to my untrained hand, but I looked for the one that really fit my hand the way I liked. I also noticed that there was no hand shock, or vibration. The bowyer took the time to make sure the bow was set up right, and gave me some good arrows to shoot out of it.
I didnt buy one then, but bought one from him later that summer.
Bows are like wine. Sure, you can grab a couple bottles of Boones Farm, and get the desired results cheap enough, and may find you're perfectly happy with that. But then you may try some of that higher end wine up on the top shelf. Its smoother, pleasing to the palate, and you never look back at that Boones Farm the same.
Bow making, like good wine is an art. A finely honed craft. The name speaks for itself. The reputation, the look, feel and confidence.
Your question is a good one, one that many often wonder.
bows are just like knives. you can make it your whole hunting life with a $50 Geber folder. it is fine or you can get an Andre Van Heerden folder for $1200. is the $1200 Heerden worth $1150 more than a $50 Geber?? only you and your pocket book can answer that question.
Same thing with bows. Only you will know the answer.
rusty
ps there is over a 12 months waiting list for certain Randall Knives.....and they are not $50 knives :)
QuoteOriginally posted by Dsturgisjr:
From what I hear, you aren't the only guy at Kzoo to experience STICKER SHOCK! :biglaugh:
Now that is funny right there!! :biglaugh: :biglaugh: From what I hear there were a few people!
Let it go Denny..........
I'm coming to terms with what looks pretty and what works for me. I have two Widows that are close to mint and absolutely beautiful. This past week, I bought a used Reflex Nomad (aluminum riser, fiberglass limbs, ugly as hell). I can shoot that Nomad far better than the others. The price difference is over $500 between the "customs" and the aluminum, but if I had to pick one for a do or die situation...it would be the Nomad.
This is a picture of a guy with sticker shock over the price of his new hat at Kzoo last weekend. :)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v328/Dsturgisjr/biggieKzoo.jpg)
:biglaugh: :biglaugh: :biglaugh:
Biggie's head block-out Brian's entire body in the Tall Tines booth! Ha!
There are lots of beautiful bows made, and with a couple notable exceptions, pretty much any bow built to say, 50#@28" will shoot the same arrow pretty darn close to the same speed as another with the same draw weight & design.
Truth be told, a lot has to do with established big name bows, and pride of ownership. When you enter the trad world, in short order you know the big, established names and the prices their bows command. There's something about owning one of these that appeals to most all of us. Kind of like when someone asks you "hemi"?, and you casually say "of course"...
It's like the guys I know in the compound world who have killed a bunch of deer with their lower end PSE, but positively covet the newest & hottest big money Matthews model. It's not that the Matthews being able to kill deer better, it's owning a MATTHEWS!
On that note, I killed a lot of deer back in the day with a Bear Whitetail II I bought for $90 new, but I digress...
What really puzzles me is not the cost of big name customs, but the cost of Bear & Martin production bows. Now that's insane!!!!
:clapper:
QuoteOriginally posted by NDTerminator:
What really puzzles me is not the cost of big name customs, but the cost of Bear & Martin production bows. Now that's insane!!!!
Best statement in the whole thread!
The most gorgeous bow with all the inlays, and exotic woods is going to cost more than the bowyer's standard bow, if he builds both. It is not always a good idea to compare different bowyers or manufacturers based on price alone. Generally, custom bows are going to cost more than a production bow, but you will find expensive production bows. That doesn't mean they are equal. So, don't base you decision on price alone.
When really matters is the arrow. Neither bow will shoot a poor arrow well; both will shoot a good arrow better.
Almost everyone developes a preference for a particular type of bow, or bowyer, after shooting for awhile. Some find the needed for the fastest, the prettiest, something really unique, the best shooter, others are happy with a basic bow. Bowyers are trying to find out find out what sells best for them. Try some bows and take it one day at a time, unless money doesn't matter. But, buy or make the best arrow for you can for what you a going to use it for...
Ya sticker shock :eek: Then a little of this when the wife see the receipt :knothead:
The term is supply and demand. Good quality and service allow a bowyer to demand only what customers will pay. I bet none of the $900.00 bows you saw were the very first one that bowyer was trying to sell. Newer and smaller bowyers often have great prices during their introductory or early years. As they get known as good bowyers/craftsmen they can demand more. Whip gave you all the ingredients for what/why quality adds up. $900.00 is a deal, all the bows I've bought in recent years were $1,100.00 +.
QuoteOriginally posted by Dsturgisjr:
This is a picture of a guy with sticker shock over the price of his new hat at Kzoo last weekend. :)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v328/Dsturgisjr/biggieKzoo.jpg)
But you did notice how slim, trim, and handsome it makes him look didn't you? :thumbsup:
Great hat Biggie! :D
QuoteOriginally posted by hunt it:
The term is supply and demand. Good quality and service allow a bowyer to demand only what customers will pay. I bet none of the $900.00 bows you saw were the very first one that bowyer was trying to sell. Newer and smaller bowyers often have great prices during their introductory or early years. As they get known as good bowyers/craftsmen they can demand more. Whip gave you all the ingredients for what/why quality adds up. $900.00 is a deal, all the bows I've bought in recent years were $1,100.00 +.
I usually stay out of this type of talk and probably still should, But, your saying that you can't get a quality bow unless you spend $1000+ dollars for one?? I whole heartily disagree, I see all bows as works of art that each bowyer puts his heart and soul into each one made, just because he doesn't need to charge or "demand" $1000+ sure as heck doesn't mean it's not worthy bow! I shot a lot of different bows in Kalamazoo, it just so happens that the one that felt the best to me was about $525...
I dunno about $1000 bows, but with materials at $225 per bow, time and equipment invested, I can't see anyone staying in business selling bows for $450.
if you cant find a great bow between 100 and 500 between fleabay and all the great bowyers out there , you are not lookind hard enough... also a used bow is still new to me and like an older woman , they may be able to show you somthing that you didnt know.....
You guys complaining about bow prices should try and make a living as a bowyer....it is near impossible!
I sell things for a living....and I sell them for as much as the market will bear.So should bowyers.
I'll pay whatever the price is for the bow that feels best to me. I like several recurves and they are in the $500- $750 range. If these bowyers changed their price to $1,500 I would pay it(after saving for a while of course)!
Just like anything else in this world...you get what you pay for! ....Biggie, was that hat to tight???
We weren't at KZoo but I sure can understand the sticker shock. I come from a family that knew what unemployment was and where not every christmas was special.
So when we went into business we set as our goal to build a high performance top quality bow that the working man could afford.
You should see the emails I've got from the high priced bowyers telling me that we are underpriced.
But we hold the line even though we are now in the established group.
Mike
They are only worth what you personally think they are worth. I think bowyers have the right to charge what they think it is worth but I don't have to agree. Given that these are wants not needs I will pay to get something I want.