Ok,it's time for a test of broad head sharp vs razor sharp.Give me some ideas as to what types of material I should use to do this.I'm not talking about splitting bone,I'm talking what gives the best opening ragged or razor sharp cut.I will make up some ballistic gel,maybe do pumpkins,and I will clean out some pumpkins and fill with red water to see the drainage.what do you think? :archer:
Hog carcass. When your done have a roast.
Al
Why not go to a butcher shop and buy a chunk of meat past its due date. A inside or outside round would do nicely. Probably cheaper than ballistic gel. And you get to BBQ when your done!
I think you're going to find out what a broadhead does to a pumpkin filled with red water or a slab of ballistic gel and it isn't going to tell you anything about what the same head will do on a living, breathing, moving animal. :)
Thats why all Ideas are welcome.Whats your's
Hunt!
that we do but the recent topic it which gets better blood trails,and wound openning that bleed more.
Take a broadhead with a file/rough edge and run it across your finger.
Take a scary sharp Silver Flame and run it across your finger (just be ready to go to a Dr.) :biglaugh:
Experiment complete.
What he said ( KSdan ).
There's just too many variables to answer that question with a test. Broadheads have different steels and some seem to hold a filed edge better than a honed edge. That don't mean it's better, that just means its better for that steel. The longer a head stays sharp, the more it cuts, the more it bleeds. Fact is there is such a thing as "sharp enough" and that's where most folks settle. It's far easier to get a "sharp enough" filed edge than it is to get a "sharp enough" honed edge. A properly honed edge will always bleed more, penetrate deeper, and bleed faster provided the steel is capable of holding that edge. The amount of blood on the ground has little to do with how fast the animal bled out and much more to do with what was cut and where the entry and exit are.
I do a lot of blade sharpening, bH's and knives, have did several for forum members. I have read, and have had several Doctors that are friends tell me, that a seratted or rough edge, tears up the edges of veins, arteries when passing throug, displaces the tissue of them, that they cant seal off as easy as those cut with a razor sharp. This is in muscle tissue and internal organs. I have shot animals with heads sharpened both ways, got about the same result, but did seem to get better bloodtrails with rough edges that were" good enough". This is the theory behind the Magnus Stinger Buzzcut and the older Kolpin Terminator serrated edge broadheads that came out in the 1980's. My brother in law killed a bunch of deer with those and a wheelie bow.
yes sir file sharp are prefered by some ,, I know some people that use belt sanders to sharpen Broadheads and they get good results so each to there own I like to file then hone my Broadheads ,,
I have found that pumpkins generally drop in sight, so the blood trail isn't all that critical. :rolleyes:
I've done this test several times,I use live critters,they work quite well.
A bleeding pumpkin would still be cool to see though,,do that an post the pic's.
I posted some info on live animal results when sticking in the thread your refering to Ipcjon2.
Just how do you suppose you're going to judge this? Sounds like fun, but meaningless.
As I stalked up on the bighorn; the ground gave way; and my arrows spilled out from my back quiver and slid down the rock slide.
I collected them up; and they were all too dull to shoot.
Then I looked up; and the bighorn was headed my way!
I reached into my pack and pulled out my belt sander; hoping the generator would not alert the ram: until I was done sharpening....
:rolleyes:
A dead cow :)
I use a square with a handle that was 5x5 with rubberbands all around it and pushed a broadhead through it away from yourself and watched if the rubberbands rolled over the blade or the rubberbands were cut. It looks like a letter "p".
Dave
Like someone said a scalpel sharp head will leave a fine cut that easily heals.. It also does not alert the nervous system which causes the blood to clot and quit flowing..
Case in point.. nick yourself shaving and it bleeds profusely but heals quickly.
Cut your self with a dull knife, the cut is many times deeper, larger etc, but bleeds little in comparison, and can be a booger to get healed up, and generally leaves a visible scar while the razor cut does not.
I vote for the razor sharp.
One test I do, is to take a tissue, set my coffee cup on one side near the edge of the table, and hold the other side with my hand and stretch it as tight as I can without moving the cup.
Then but a broadhead with an arrow on the tissue point down.
I want the head to slice a hole equal to the broadhead with out help and only the weight of the arrow pushing it through.
I'm sure that a razor head vs a filed head is technically sharper. What I know FOR SURE is that heads I file cause massive bleeding and a quick death. And I can carry a file in my pocket.
If I can't get a head scary with just a file, I won't use it.
QuoteOriginally posted by Molson:
I think you're going to find out what a broadhead does to a pumpkin filled with red water or a slab of ballistic gel and it isn't going to tell you anything about what the same head will do on a living, breathing, moving animal. :)
I gotta agree with that :thumbsup:
While I whole-heartedly agree that you won't see any real-world benefeits to shooting a pumpkin filled with 'blood', I must admit, I'm giggling lik a 3 year old at the thought of watching the video!
Come on, who wouldn't wanna see that!?! There's nothing more entertaining (To my mind, which admittedly probably tells you a lot about my mind!) than watching something that goes 'POOF', 'BOOM', or 'SPLAT' when shot :biglaugh:
The broadhead debates and tests are just that...they are tests. There are just far too many variable when hunting. I think most of us can agree (including myself) that our experiences in the field with various heads all show different results. My first trad deer was a perfect shot...broadside, 27 yards, center punched both lungs with a clean pass through. Shaving sharp 2 blade head. Didn't put a single drop of blood on the ground!!!! Not one. Luckily I saw the deer fall. For that reason alone, I shoot 3 or 4 blade heads now. But others have "highway" blood trails with 2-blades. I've also shot deer with less-than-perfect broadheads and had massive holes and bleeding. It's almost a "crap shoot" when your out there. So I concentrate of just making whatever equipment I have be in the best condition possible.
I do agree with Rob though...I would love to see the pumpkin and red water test!!!! :bigsmyl:
Jack you are dating your self - that thread is long - long dead and in a class all by itself.
volunteer to run a razor sharp blade across your left arm and a file sharpened blade across your right, then keep track of
1) how deeply they cut
2) how cleanly they cut (or how much damage
they created
3) how freely they bled
4) how long they bled freely
Without a live organism being tested upon, I can't imagine any testing being really legitimate.
You can poke a dull stick thru a pumpkin full of water and get some great bleeding. In fact, a dull stick would make for a larger hole than that created by a sharp point, and drain it faster.. try blunts and see what I mean.
ChuckC
For a ballistic medium, I'll send you my mother-in-law's 'Meat Loaf Supreme' and all the 'Christmas Delight' fruitcake you want.
Free shipping too.
QuoteOriginally posted by KSdan:
Take a broadhead with a file/rough edge and run it across your finger.
Take a scary sharp Silver Flame and run it across your finger (just be ready to go to a Dr.) :biglaugh:
Experiment complete.
Exactly!
Even I remember the "Dead Cow" thread and that was like... well Moby Dick was still in a fish bowl back then..lol
I have seen many suicide victims with both razor cuts on the wrist and ones done with regular kitchen knives I know exactly what each does,Problem is that I don't get to see how long it takes for them to bleed out.Now I have spoke with the forensic pathologist that I work with and they state that the ragged cut will not clot as fast as the scalpel cut,With the right paper work I may be able to do this test with cadavers...LOL
Next time you speak to your forensic pathologist, would you ask him to cite his references as to why ragged cuts don't clot as fast as scalpel cuts. Tests on cadavers are not likely to simulate live, moving animals IMHO.
Here an excerpt from "Hunting with the Bow and Arrow" by Saxton Pope. I guess that is the conclusion from a hundred years ago ... ;-) they preferred filing sharp over razor sharp ...
"The question of the cutting qualities of the obsidian head as compared to those of the
sharpened steel head, was answered in the following experiment:
A box was so constructed that two opposite sides were formed by fresh deer skin tacked in place. The interior of the box was filled with bovine liver. This represented animal tissue minus the bones.
At a distance of ten yards I discharged an obsidian-pointed arrow and a steel-pointed arrow from a weak bow. The two missiles were alike in size, weight, and feathering, in fact, were made by Ishi, only one had the native head and the other his modern substitute. Upon repeated trials, the steel-headed arrow uniformly penetrated a distance of twenty-two inches from the front surface of the box, while the obsidian uniformly penetrated thirty inches, or eight inches farther, approximately 25 per cent better penetration. This advantage is undoubtedly due to the concoidal edge of the flaked glass operating upon the same principle that fluted-edged bread and bandage knives cut better than ordinary knives.
In the same way we discovered that steel broad-heads sharpened by filing have a better meatcutting edge than when ground on a stone."
is it just me or is this one of those classic argument
2 blade v. three blade
wood v. carbon
skinny string v. "normal" string
three fletch v. four fletch
ford v. chevy
That no matter what data is collected or expert is consulted or what anecdotal story is relayed that most peoples minds are already made up and what is boils down too is this
Hunting season is over and everybody has cabin fever and is just looking for a fight.
LOL
Caleb
QuoteOriginally posted by robtattoo:
While I whole-heartedly agree that you won't see any real-world benefeits to shooting a pumpkin filled with 'blood', I must admit, I'm giggling lik a 3 year old at the thought of watching the video!
Come on, who wouldn't wanna see that!?! There's nothing more entertaining (To my mind, which admittedly probably tells you a lot about my mind!) than watching something that goes 'POOF', 'BOOM', or 'SPLAT' when shot :biglaugh:
I gotta go with Rob on this one...I could not get that picture out of my mind either. No pumpkins available this time of year or I would give it a try!
po-tah-to, po-tay-to...
This is a definition of the two types of wounds caused by the two types of broad heads from Health guidance.
Incisions(scalpel sharp)
Incised wounds, or cuts (Fig. 2), in body tissues are commonly caused by knives, metal edges, broken glass, or other sharp objects. The degree of bleeding depends on the depth and extent of a cut. Deep cuts may involve blood vessels and may cause extensive bleeding. They may also damage muscles, tendons, and nerves.
Lacerations(file sharp)
Lacerations (Fig. 3) are jagged, irregular, or blunt breaks or tears in the soft tissues. Bleeding may be rapid and extensive. The destruction of tissue is greater in lacerations than in cuts. The deep contamination of wounds that result from accidents involving moving parts of machinery increases the chances of later infection.
I will have cited documentation when I go to work on Friday. :thumbsup:
Are we trying to kill something cleanly or do maximum damage ? If I screw up and hit one such taht it is not mortal.. ie a leg hit or neck or some such, wouldn't a nice clean cut ultimately heal up better with less damage, scaring etc for the critter ?
I was trained that a cut caused by a sharp blade will cause less tissue damage, causing less physiologic reaction that ends in clotting ( a whole series of events takes place for a clot to form) than compared to a dull or ragged instrument, which damages more tissue and does cause this physiologic reaction, hence, quicker clotting.
The clean slice will shut easier, and heal over easier, however we are talking a slice here, not a gaping hole in your side that is moving apart as you run.
Both will cut, suit yourself on what you wish to use. Both have been used for quite some time.
I am pretty certain that 50 years ago very few of our predecessors used KME sharpeners and diamond hones to sharpen their broadheads, and in fact I think I have seen enough to know that many never ever even tried to sharpen up the head they used.
As long as the design and metal of the head will hold up to it, I believe sharper is better than not so much sharp (including file sharpened ).
More fun. extend this discussion to double vs single bevel sharpness. Can you get one sharper than the other ? Does it matter ?
ChuckC
It looks like this would be as close as you could come to an applicable study, if the amount of bleeding would have just been quantified.
http://tradgang.com/noncgi/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=083981;p=4
pdk25 we should also do platelet counts and test protein and iron content along with about 15 other different things which all add to the clotting of blood. Im really close to just giving this one up.spent more time on this than I did hunting this week...LOL :banghead: :campfire:
Yeah, I would give it up if I were you. You are not likely to come up with an adequate study that would uniformly be accepted.
Done,taken my filed heads and going home...LOL
Well I could suggest that you go to Africa or Australia and shoot a lot of game with both heads. Document your findings scientifically and then write the results so that even I can understand.
Or you could just read Dr. Ashby's studies and results. And choose to believe it or not.
Mike
Just sharpen your broadheads as best you can with file or hone and shoot straight; double lung, tight behind the foreleg. Bill mc
I read somewhere that ragged cuts clot faster due to the increase in surface area while clean smooth cuts bleed easier since the tissue has less ability to knit itself together.
I cannot prove or disprove this but I know that when shaving I bleed a real long time. The idea behind the jagged edge is that it grabs tough tissue better.
I like BH as sharp as I can get and have no problems with that.
Mike "Wingnut" You were reading my mind.
Most people don't know what a truly sharp broadhead is...They file sharpen and it works...No argument Traditional archers tend to want to do thing "traditionally" just like dad or grandpa. Dad and grandpa killed a bunch of animals. The science of sharpening has been around for decades but unfortunately as archers we are just beginning to understand it....or accept it. Eye surgeons have used glass for years because of its superior cutting edge. Like I said I have never heard anyone complain that they had a knife or broadhead that was too sharp...
Wingnut I respect what Dr Ashby does and If thats you cup of tea drink it I live in south Jersey and I dont plan on going to Australia or Africa .So I will use what I think is the most effective on the animals I hunt Deer, Squirrels, and rabbits.But dont get me wrong if a cape buffalo season opens in Jersey I will be reading his articles.and as always stated by many if you aim in the right spot and have good form and practice often the animal will go down effectively,file sharp or razor sharp.As I have become aware that there are way to many factors to satisfy the needs of all.The End
Love you guys in a straight way! :campfire:
Tim
maybe try a very large chunk of raw meat, like a roast, then measure the amount of force it takes to push a broadhead arrow thru. Everything else about the test has to be identical, arrow spine, diameter broadhed size etc.
ChuckC
Don't give up yet, ipcjon2. Ideas like yours are what feed experimentation. What I would like to see is which edge is the most durable. Maybe you (or someone else) could come up with a repeatable method of testing for sharpness (using rubber bands maybe?)and shoot the same brand of broadhead into different materials; one with a filed edge and the other with a honed edge, and see which edge proves to be the most durable. I think we would all agree that the edge that is the most durable would probably be the most desireable.
to really do it properly with factual results the medium you're using would have to be almost perfectly consistent - and the ammount of pressure applied to each broadhead identical
right ?
I would think a gel type substance would work, and some kind of tool that accurately and precisely measures inch/foot pounds
I think with a file one can make a very coarse edge that is not necessarily sharp. A very sharp filed edge if done with the Hill method if very sharp before the serration is done will be that much of a keener edge than one that is not so sharp. I put a very light serration on shaving sharp single bevel heads and we are getting great results with them. however, not all files give the type of serration that I look for. The corner of the file has to be very sharp for it to work. If you look at each serration as if it were a tiny individual cutting surface, it would show to be extremely sharp. Plus, if a hard tendon or bone is contacted it makes sense to me that the blade would retain more of a cutting edge and possibly stay sharp in a back quiver longer. Animals are not a consistent medium nor are all broadheads equal. For a time and my son still prefers to use a raised burr done with a very fine diamond steel. The broadhead is shaving sharp under that burr, but the burr is a finer edge than that. I am always surprised by how much of that burr stays in tack after passing through a deer. I am not trying to disprove the findings of the Dr. in anyway, it is just that have found that certain modifications seem to work for us very well and it is perhaps a bit of a novelty and fun to find that our forefathers had somethings right as well. I keep thinking here about the primitive fellow that buried an obsidian tipped cedar to the feathers on a canadian moose with a slower than average osage flat limb, the obsidian point certainly was not razor smooth unless one looks real close at the tiny chipped dimples along the edge, which were probably sharper than razor sharp. The last deer I shot was with a shaving sharp broadhead that neglected to put the serration on, I only ever have two serrated broadheads with me on any given day and I lost both of them shooting at a coyote earlier that day. I cannot say one way or the other that I had an advantage for the rather short blood trail to the deer.