My set up is...Mohawk LB 64" 57# @ 28" Easton 2018 29" long Zwickey no mercy 165 grn single bevel. total arrow weight is about 530 grains.
Target of choice was west texas whitails.
Impact was a little bit foward hitting the mature buck in the right shoulder,distance was aprox. 18 yards. After a long search the deer was spotted a few days later with the arrow still impacted in the shoulder but otherwise no worse for wear. I changed my set up to this because this very thing happened to me three years ago,and i hate to wound an animal,I agree this was a poor shot but shouldnt this set up penetrate the shoulder of a white tail??
I would try a Carbon Express heritage 250s arrow with 100gr brass inserts , 100gr adapters in your No mercy broadheads cut you arrows to 30" you will have one serious combo with very high foc and a very tough arrow :thumbsup: :archer:
Nothing makes up for a bad shot....not even the single bevel heads. Without standing beside you to watch what you did, it's hard to tell. Angles of shot; not getting to full draw; poor arrow flight for some reason. Too many variables to suggest what happened in your case.
Bad shots are bad shots.
I shoot the same weight longbow but with 625 grns /FOC.
On the tests I did the arrow with 625 grns out penetrated another only 35grn lighter by 2 inches. The point I want to make is how much MORE penetration a heavier shaft will deliver. To actually see it for oneself is worth the trouble trying different weight arrows.
Joshua
George is right, nothing makes up for a bad shot. Without being there we can't know what caused the forward hit on the deer.
Poor bonde penetration on the other hand is fairly easily remedied. Read thru the Ashby report on optimizing your arrows and follow all of the options as closely as possible.
Crank that arrow weight above 630 grains, use a brass or steel adapter / insert, utilize a razor sharp single bevel tanto tip broadhead, and you should be able to get shoulder penetration on broadside shots with enough force to take out one lung and most likely two. Nothing guarantees heavy bone penetration. Optimizing your arrow gives you a 300% better chance of it happening for a clean kill.
Lots of guys like light arrows and get super close to make killing shots, others like to depend on their shooting skill and take longer shots with light set ups. Reality is we all occasionally make bad shots, light arrows and light bows do no provide the optimum penetration when heavy bones are hit, simple physics there.
I agree with the other guys, that seems a bit light for the poundage you are shooting. 10pp is my minimum usually higher. 570-627gr is about what you should be shooting.
Your lack of penetration has nothing to do with equipment set up. Like George said "bad shots are bad shots". Firearm hunters have bad shots too.
It wont make up for a bad shot but im shooting a mohawk 56#@30".i shoot around a 680gr arrow.I also use Zwickey no mercy 165 grn single bevel broad heads.Maby try some thing heavier.When I bought my bow ne vence recommended a heavy arrow.But if it was a shoulder blade shot at 18 yards it probbly wouldent matter.
Seems like your set up would've gotten through at least one shoulder no problem, however any number of things could've gone wrong. One possibility that jumps out at me is that you might have hit the ridge that runs up the scapula...bone gets pretty thick there.
Now 530 gr is a light arrow for deer????
Your arrow is fine if its flying good and your broadhead is sharp if you hit them in the right spot. There is no good answer for bad shots. Its a deer, not a water buffalo.
I had this exact thing happen to me also this year 55# kodiak mag with 545 gn arrow and I know I short drew due to my limb hitting the tree limb....simple as that this deer was close enough to spit on 5 yards maybe....o and I wouldve mounted him.....same scenario tho I fortunetly saw him a number of times later in the season so I know he lived. A bad shot is a bad shot we all make em. Don't lose too much sleep over it
The setup you are using will shoot longways thru a deer if the shot placement is good - read that last part again.
No matter what you are told shooting through heavy bone will not happen with that poundage on a adult deer , I will have nay sayers here . You would be at 10 grains per pound with a 53# bow and some people would say you are perfect, well if it will penetrate with 53# it will at your 57#.
The bottom line is about shot palcement.
Something someone said above is about not reaching full draw. When a deer is close to your tree with the heavy poundage you cannot reach full draw as easily, thus making your arrows out of tune ( not perfect arrow flight), impeding pentration. Just something to think about .
I have lowered my poundage to 50# @ my 27" draw with a 9.5 grain/ pound arrow. Now I shoot thru everthing as long as I stay off the heavy bone .
Good luck
Jack
Don't shoot the next one in the shoulder blade, or go up to around 85# bow and 850 grain arrow.
QuoteOriginally posted by Jack Whitmire Jr:
The setup you are using will shoot longways thru a deer if the shot placement is good - read that last part again.
No matter what you are told shooting through heavy bone will not happen with that poundage on a adult deer , I will have nay sayers here . You would be at 10 grains per pound with a 53# bow and some people would say you are perfect, well if it will penetrate with 53# it will at your 57#.
The bottom line is about shot palcement.
Something someone said above is about not reaching full draw. When a deer is close to your tree with the heavy poundage you cannot reach full draw as easily, thus making your arrows out of tune ( not perfect arrow flight), impeding pentration. Just something to think about .
I have lowered my poundage to 50# @ my 27" draw with a 9.5 grain/ pound arrow. Now I shoot thru everthing as long as I stay off the heavy bone .
Good luck
Jack
Good post Jack, I couldn't agree more :thumbsup:
Simply changing to a single bevel BH is not the answer to changing the outcome of bad shots.
That arrow isn't light, especially for Texas Whitetails....
You could bump your arrow weight up....a couple hundred grains...it will help penetration...but will it guarantee "good enough" penetration thru bone???
I tell ya what it will lead to shooting at those WIRED deer.....a lot of bad hits!
By the time that slow arrow gets there who knows where or what position the deer will be in!!
I bet anyone that's shot at those jumpy critters will know where I'm coming from....
10 more lbs or 300gns more arrow weight would not have changed anything.
You missed and arrow weight is not going to put the arrow back where it needed to be to kill him.Sometimes we screw up but blaming the equipment is not the answer.Your setup is overkill for whitetail deer so that is not the problem. jmo
According to some darn good research that many of you just can seem to stomach...there is a remedy for bad shots. Whether you make the bad shot or the animal moves.
That was the reason for the research Dr. Ashby has done.
So Ladams my answer is bad shots are bad shots but a heavier arrow with high FOC will make bad shots dead and recovered animals. There is a lot you can do to your ammo to make them more lethal. Read the research.
"Your setup is overkill for whitetail deer so that is not the problem. jmo"
Overkill....is finding the deer.
I guess I should have been more clear on my post, a bad shot is a bad shot as everyone has said, but for the longevity of the bow and for better results on marginal hits (ie clipping bone or they quarter hard at the shot) 10gr/pp is a better bet. 530 grain arrows are plenty for deer and even Elk on good shot placement, it would be perfect from a 53# bow- still a little light for 57#. Just my opinion. If you can't change setups or just don't want to, you will still be fine-dont lose any sleep over it, just try to make a better shot next time. Everyone messes up, I just did it myself in Ohio shooting 11gr/pp. It obviously didnt help me any, but it might on another and its much better for the '57 I was shooting than 8-9gr/pp
I shot through both shoulders of a 120lbs. doe this year. 540 grain arrow 56# @ 28 simmons tigershark broadhead. 30 1/2" 5575 gt arrow at 25 yards. I'm shooting 9.4 grains per pound. LCH
QuoteSo Ladams my answer is bad shots are bad shots but a heavier arrow with high FOC will make bad shots dead and recovered animals.
Yeah there are those that think that.There are also those that think man never landed on the moon. ;) You shoot something in a place that is non leathal and it does not matter what you are shooting.Bad shots are best overcome by spending more time shooting and learning when to shoot than by weighing arrows.
Sure you will still mess up..we all do at times but you look to the mirrow for what you need to fix,not your quiver or whats in your hand. :knothead:
Read this and draw your own conlcusions:
http://www.tradgang.com/ashby/2008update2.pdf
todd
i totally agree with curt,
there's always gonna be bad shots. it happens.
however, increasing the chances of changing a wound to a kill is what the ashby reports are all about. increasing arrow mass weight and lots of efoc front end weight. dunno about the single bevel thingy, yet.
not saying the above arrow setup changes will help in every bad shot situation, but i can't see where it would hurt as long as you know both your arrow's trajectory and your effective accuracy range under hunting conditions.
definitely cruise through the doc's 2008 p2 report, as well as some of his others.
Re read the Ashby reports. My understanding of his work is that the things to do to make for better penetration IN ORDER are:
1. Energy from bow = max draw weight that you can use with good form, ie. full draw, clean release, etc.
2. Perfect arrow flight. This is the most often overlooked piece of the puzzle. Aluminum arrows are nice and straight, but one of the worst materials for clean non oscillating flight. Wood is better and carbon better yet but aluminum can be OK if tuned. Tuning for correct flight with your bow and form is critical. This is much more important than all the following factors. So much so that without it the other ideas are mute!
3. Arrow mass. Heavier is better - given the first two above are addressed.
4. Then we get into the other variables like FOC, single bevel, etc.
The entire treaties on penetration factors started with the axiom that where we hit game animals is unpredictable. This came from personal experience and extensive interviews with and questionnaires presented to other bow hunters. It is not just about buffalo rib cages. As you discovered (me too) an arrow will not penetrate a deer scapula if arrow performance is marginal.
A 530 grn 2018 flying clean at 160 fps with a reasonably sharp broad head should stick in the dirt on the far side of a relaxed deer hit in the ribs. The same set up flying just slightly imperfectly and hitting the solid part of a deer scapula on a string jumping deer will not penetrate 2".
My limited experience with those TX whitetails is that they can be wound tight and will be ducking and diving when your arrow gets there. Shooting one near a feeder requires shooting at the spot you think they might be in by the time your arrow gets there - not shooting at where they are at the time of release. If they are less than 30 yards from you, they are going to jump the string big time.
Get with some other trad archers, double check your form for draw length etc, consider carbon arrows and get perfect arrow flight tuned in. Good luck with those jumpy deer and good hunting!
James,
Yes, all the mechanics in shooting are the most important. The operator of the bow has to do their part and like you say we all make bad shots and all shoot at a moving target that was still. But Ladams would have been better off with a heavier arrow and higher FOC. How do you disagree with that.
What do you think about the actual field results from Dr. Ashby's research? Do you not believe it?
Are you excluded from "those that think that"?
I am just trying to grasp the fact that so many of you ingore the best research that YOU have ever seen.
Fill me in on something better. I will listen.
I dont' know how many times I've said it....but I'm gonna say it again.
NO HEAD WILL GURANTEE A SHOULDER BLADE PASS THROUGH....NO MATTER WHAT YOU READ.
I've shot through whitetail shoulder blades with Snuffers - and have not gotten through with Snuffers. I know guys that have shot through heavy bone with Grizzly heads - and have NOT gotten through heavy bone with Grizzly heads. Expecting a "magic bullet" setup is nonsense...too many variables. I believe that there are MANY more unrecovered deer THAT DIE due to gutshots with inadequately sized broadheads (ie insufficient blood trail) than to lack of penetration on heavy bone hits. Rest easily, your shoulder shot buck has every likelyhood of surviving (a bit wiser than before). I think too many guys miss the point - the key is to balance ADEQUATE penetration on reasonable shot placement with ADEQUATE wound channel for sufficient internal damage and blood trail to find your animal....regardless of FOC, GPP, or whatever XYZ you prefer.
R
QuoteOriginally posted by Ryan Rothhaar:
I've shot through whitetail shoulder blades with Snuffers - and have not gotten through with Snuffers. I know guys that have shot through heavy bone with Grizzly heads - and have NOT gotten through heavy bone with Grizzly heads. Expecting a "magic bullet" setup is nonsense...too many variables. I believe that there are MANY more unrecovered deer THAT DIE due to gutshots with inadequately sized broadheads (ie insufficient blood trail) than to lack of penetration on heavy bone hits. Rest easily, your shoulder shot buck has every likelyhood of surviving (a bit wiser than before). I think too many guys miss the point - the key is to balance ADEQUATE penetration on reasonable shot placement with ADEQUATE wound channel for sufficient internal damage and blood trail to find your animal....regardless of FOC, GPP, or whatever XYZ you prefer.
R
Yeah....that's a good read. Good enough to read again.
Everytime a person makes a bad shot he/she should learn from it, not automaticaly blame and change their equipment. If you do that every time you will never have a confident set up. You wil always be searching and never find it. Cause like Ryan said, there is NO MAGIC BULLET. And this thread proved it.... changed heads and got the same results.
There was a guy on another thread lately that said he had to change to a certian head weight because he had a crappy release. Why doesn't he feel compeled to fix his release? Cause he's been told if he buys something it will fix it for him, but it's really just a bandaid for the real problem.
Only a sharp knife and a post mortem would prove what went wrong. Obviously you hit something very solid.
To ask for answers from people who weren't even there is kinda silly... you were there and you don't know!
Your set up is a very efficient one. Shoot it more and work on the things you CAN control.
I might add that while Dr. Ashby has compiled a very complete study and offers some excellent advice, he has not accounted for EVERY variable and therefore his finding should be considered theory not fact... albeit very well informed theory.
Oh I have read all the reports.I agree that is certain cases some of the things might help.After shooting deer so long with all sorts of arrows and bows I also believe that shot placement is the only real key to recovering animals.If I ever hunt animals where I might need penitration other than what I get I would be all over the stuff in the reports.I however have never had any problem with penitration on the animals I hunt.
As far as the foc thing it is nothing new.Anyone that has been shooting carbon arrows since they first come out and used heads heavier than 100gns has always had more foc than other type arrow materials.When I put a 200gn head on my carbons for my 40lb bows I have a 30% foc.Since I like big broadheads the foc has always been there.Reading about it in a report some years later did not come as a surprise. :) Now
Now would any of these things helped the shot in this topic.I have no idea just as no one else here that posted does.We do not know the shot angle,height ect or anything to say the arrow going in farther would have helped one bit.One thing we can all see and I think agree on is that hitting behind the shoulder instead of other places would have made this thread a completly differnt topic. :D The one constant that I have found with bowhunting is making shots count.That is something we can contol.We can't count on heavier arrows or a different foc to bail us out.If you want clean kills it is up to you not what you are shooting.While everthing in the reports might be spot on I just don't like the way it is often promoted as a fix all or bandaid.
First rule of bowhunting..learn to shoot and where to shoot and when to shoot to kill what you are hunting.When things go wrong look to yourself for the fix,not your equipment. :)
Shot placement is the key. None of this heavy arrow, foc, etc. crap is going to make up for a bad hit.
Don't take it personally, if you've been hunting for awhile you are going to make bad hits. If anybody tells you that they have never had a bad hit on an animal, they are either lying, or haven't shot that many critters.
I do believe that most of these animals survive.
I also believe that once you penetrate the body cavity itself, that animal is going to die. Just might not be today.
550 grains is enough for any animal, especially a whitetail. Washington state minimums are 450 grains for "big game".
Years ago a friend of mine shot an antelope in the shoulder with a 95lb compound. He got his antelope, a week after he got home the outfitter mailed him the skull.
Shooting them in the shoulder is ussually an unrecovered deer.
Jim
Richie, Ashby's report is not a cure-all for bad shot placement. Chances are very good that the shot made would have been no different with a heavier arrow, even if it was flying well...."because"....we don't know the whole story.
Guys do weird things in the presence of game. Heck some don't even get much past half draw at times. I've seen some sights over my bowhunting career, and if you keep your eyes open, you will as well. It's not always about the biggest, heaviest, etc. And yes....I read the Ashby report and have great respect for Dr. Ashby. I also have five decades of first hand experience that I can fall back on.
I would be willing to bet that most guys going afield nowadays, do not have perfect arrow flight, and that is the "main cause" of penetration issues. Not fronts-of-center...not mass....not momentum, unless it was momentum lost due to poor flight, bad release, et al.
I listened to the same argument in the 1960's from guys who swore in front of God that a 243 would never kill deer....you must have a 30:06 and 180 grain bullets.
So before you go telling us we are all a bunch of idiots, or heathens for not complying with the good Dr.'s results, perhaps you could open your mind and think that some of us have actually had great success over our hunting life, and will continue to do so with our pathetically, inadequate equipment. Just sayin'...maybe there is more than one answer.
I agree with George, I have killed alot of critters, with "inadequate equipment", Imagine that. Even with wood arrows, wow.
Jim
QuoteOriginally posted by Charlie Lamb:
Only a sharp knife and a post mortem would prove what went wrong. Obviously you hit something very solid.
To ask for answers from people who weren't even there is kinda silly... you were there and you don't know!
Your set up is a very efficient one. Shoot it more and work on the things you CAN control.
Very good post Charlie :thumbsup:
Thanks guys I understand the Question has no real answer but I believe I got what I was looking for and then some< I understand that nothing can make up for a bad shot and I undertand that only I can fix that.and charlie hit real close to home with his comment about working on the things that I can control.
Thanks LA
.....massive ...heavy arrow at short range !!!! = DEAD DEER !!!!!
After reading Dr. Ashby's study, I read that the heavy bone threshold is around 650 grains. That's heavy bone regardless if it's whitetail, elk or bison.
When I've shot whitetails with a 530 grain arrow I've gotten passthroughs when it didn't hit any heavy bone, when heavy bone was hit I didn't get a passthrough. I haven't hit heavy bone on an animal yet with the 700 grains arrows I'm currently shooting so I don't have any real world data to back up Ashby's study.
QuoteOriginally posted by getstonedprimitivebowhunt:
.....massive ...heavy arrow at short range !!!! = DEAD DEER !!!!!
Gotta disagree...It doesn't take a "massive,heavy arrow to equal "dead deer"....
The arrow he's using is perfect for Texas whitetails!
QuoteOriginally posted by Rob DiStefano:
...
there's always gonna be bad shots. it happens.
however, increasing the chances of changing a wound to a kill is what the ashby reports are all about. increasing arrow mass weight and lots of efoc front end weight. dunno about the single bevel thingy, yet.
not saying the above arrow setup changes will help in every bad shot situation, but i can't see where it would hurt as long as you know both your arrow's trajectory and your effective accuracy range under hunting conditions.
Exactly. The original post asked about help with penetration. Repeating over and over it was a bad shot helps not at all. And arguing about whether a heavier arrow is or is not a solution for a bad shot is getting away from that.
I think the suggestions to fling a heavier arrow are right on. It can only help if you understand the fps penalty, which IMO is minor considering a deer will jump a 180fps arrow about as easily as a 165fps one.
Its a matter of self-confidence now though, isn't it? Get that back and you will be fine.
Joshua, who can kil a deer with his 38# bow and a 300grn arrow if it "hits them in the right spot." ;0)
And to add to Guru's post....The arrow he's using is perfect for Roosevelt Elk, Shiras Moose and White Pine stumps.
QuoteOriginally posted by Terry Green:
I dont' know how many times I've said it....but I'm gonna say it again.
NO HEAD WILL GURANTEE A SHOULDER BLADE PASS THROUGH....NO MATTER WHAT YOU READ.
I dont post here very often but I get a ton of info here.
the quality of info is very top notch.Terry Greens leafy hat is very cool mabe someday I will find one like that.his advice is always on target as with most of you. you guys have answerd guestions comfirmed my thoughts and did not beat me up too much in doing so.
I believe you guys might even be able to solve the worlds problems if given the chance.
Thanks Again
LA
Jack you're exactly right
I've experimented with short drawing and have flat out missed targets at 15 yards when short draw is performed
Focus focus focus =]
Terry is absolutely correct.
The only guarantee in life is death...
Even a well placed shot on an animal perfectly broadside that doesn't move with a razor sharp broadhead and a weight of 10 gpp does not guarantee a recovery.
QuoteOriginally posted by Terry Green:
I dont' know how many times I've said it....but I'm gonna say it again.
NO HEAD WILL GURANTEE A SHOULDER BLADE PASS THROUGH....NO MATTER WHAT YOU READ.
+1 :thumbsup:
life's a crap shoot of sorts! :D
Rob are you still shooting a mohwak??
George, etc.,
First of all assuming that any arrow ladams shoots is well tuned with a sharp broadhead...that is a given. It may actually NOT have been the case but we don't know that but for the question below...it was.
Explain to me why ladams WOULD NOT have been better off and increased his chances of killing that deer had he used a heavier arrow with high FOC. Why would he NOT have improved his chances?
It seems you guys also ignore that most "bad shots" you may make are NOT your fault. The animals move and the arrow hits a spot you didn't want it to. What about that? So how do you address that situation?
Do you just think "Oh well I have been hunting for 58 years...maybe the next deer won't move and I will hit my spot."
Or do you think, "Well, I know that is going to happen. I know the deer is going to move on shots. I am going to do some things to beef up my ammo, tune it well, put the same scary sharp broadhead on it and greatly increase my chances of killing a deer even with a "bad" shot.
Based on what you guys have been saying..I am inferring that you do not do the latter. Why not? To me that makes more sense.
If the latter is not the way to address the unfortunate shot placements then tell me why?
And if you will, base your answer on as extensive background information as the Ashby reports have supported the latter.
I want to learn from the other side as well.
Also,
Noone has uttered the word "guarantee", not even the Ashby reports.
It seems to be all about increasing your chances and research seems to prove it does. Not in theory.
richie, i don't see where anyone's nay saying stuff like high gpp/foc.
think they're saying that criteria is peripheral to a good flying arrow, that's well placed, with a sharp c-o-c point.
and they're absolutely right, imho.
QuoteOriginally posted by Ladams:
Rob are you still shooting a mohwak??
you betcha! same ol' 55# t/d.
ONE GUY SAID:
"First rule of bowhunting..learn to shoot and where to shoot and when to shoot to kill what you are hunting.When things go wrong look to yourself for the fix,not your equipment."
I AGREE WITH THAT
ANOTHER GUY SAID:
"It seems you guys also ignore that most "bad shots" you may make are NOT your fault"
I DO NOT AGREE WITH THIS!
I have only been bowhunting for a short while (2006) but since when does a deer taking a step become the deer's fault?????
In my limited experience a 'bad shot' is almost ALWAYS the archers fault.
Animal moves before arrow gets to its mark and the animal takes it in the shoulder or guts = archers fault for shooting too far away (or shooting when animal was jumpy, i.e. the deer's body language told you not to shoot).
If you want to 'get away' from shooting at wired texas whitetails, don't shoot them at a feeder! Animals are jumpy at feeders b/c they've learned that being near the feeder is a precarious situation for them. You'd be jumpy too if someone flung arrows at you whist you ate your cheerios in the AM. Since I've stopped hunting feeders I have not had near as many string jumpers.
If your bow limb hits a tree or some other ground clearance issues and the arrow is sent off course = archers fault. This has happened to me. It was my fault for not taking into consideration the angle of my bow while kneeling.
Arrow deflects from grass or vine and goes onto a wayward path = archers fault. Shoulda waited for a clearer shot or ID'd the path better.
Arrow hits bone and does not get thru.....your fault for hitting bone, or your fault for not getting thru bone. Either way, the deer taking a step and taking it in a 'bad spot' was not something that should fall on anyone other than the archer.
Now please do not read this and think that I am some holier-than-thou—ultra-ethic'd-guy. I have taken some shots that most of you guys would never fathom.......even in your wildest dreams.
Some of those shots ended badly and at the time I blamed the animal, or the vine, or my long limbed bows and their ground clearance issues, or my arrows. I used to blame those external factors for my mistakes. Now I just blame myself. Once I started blaming myelf and not the equipment, I was much less likely to take those low percentage shots.
And yep, even on a CLOSE range shot things can go awry. In 2008 I shot a small buck w/ my howatt @ 13 feet. He was extremely jumpy. This was in front of a feeder and he was quartering away hard. I have it on video but the vid will remain valulted forever b/c it was a low point for me and something that I am not proud of. He dropped so low in that short distance that he took the stinger to the back of the cranium and was down. Yes..they get jumpy around feeders. Should NOT have taken that shot. Not the deer's fault. I could tell from his body language that he was wired and that anything could happen....greed won out and I took the shot. Again, not something I am proud of and I have been changing things since.
QuoteIt seems you guys also ignore that most "bad shots" you may make are NOT your fault.
I feel most if not all the "bad shots" I may have
personally experianced where my fault. Either shot selection, timing or execution. Those are the things I work on. And since doing so, the "bad shots" are more of a memory for the most part. And any that I may have experianced would not have had anymore chance of recovery with additional penetration - they where bad shots in low vital areas.
Richie, I do respect your exuberance for the sport of bowhunting, and I know you have a desire to do the best you possibly can to make good shots and use good equipment.
You stated: "Or do you think, "Well, I know that is going to happen. I know the deer is going to move on shots. I am going to do some things to beef up my ammo, tune it well, put the same scary sharp broadhead on it and greatly increase my chances of killing a deer even with a "bad" shot."
Personally, I have already thought that out. I know, and have seen, what my equipment will do..in good and bad conditions, on good and bad shots. The last bad shot I made was in the 1970's. Here is why: I learned not to shoot under certain circumstances; deer looking at me; deer tense from extraneous activity; deer not broadside and almost no possibility of hitting entrance shoulder.
Now...anything can happen, of course, but most things occur because the shooter makes an error in judgement...not because a deer jumps the string. The archer has complete control over the situation and is the one choosing when to loose an arrow. So, the onus is on the guy behind the bow to make, or not make a shot...good or bad.
As for my equipment....average arrow is between 470 and 550 grains, depending on what bow I'm shooting. I have seen these arrows cut through a deer's spine (when I hunted from trees), pass through a lung...into the heart, and be imbedded in the brisket with the point starting to exit the body completely. That was with a 470 grain arrow, Bear Razorhead, 53 pound bow....shot distance seven steps.
I have also had a 540 grain aluminum arrow penetrate both hams....a very bad shot on my part, and luckily caught the femoral artery.
I have never hit a scapula in all my years...except on one occasion, and that was on the exit.
Now I don't pile up deer numbers since in Pa. we can only take one buck per year, but I have taken over twenty-couple in forty-couple years.
I never lost a deer due to poor penetration, but I have lost a couple to to bad shot placement.
So yes...we are deeply concerned with how our equipment performs in the field, even in less than perfect conditions: however, I have the most affect on what those conditions will be, and act accordingly. I also have the experience and examples to know that what I am doing is best for me and the game I hunt.
I would never tell you or anyone else that your equipment isn't good equipment. The bottom line is how it performs and I am more than comfortable with my equipment, and I know it's not detrimental to the sport, because it is very adequate, and quite efficient. I'm sure what you use is every bit as good. 8^).
I agree with something from every post so far. I gotta say that the 4 answers I have seen to the original question are.
1. Find perfectly tuned arrows to the bow.
2. Work on your form and being able to
find that perfectly tuned arrow.
3. Know when to and when not to take a shot.
4. Increasing your arrow weight and foc will
increase penetration. Science and
field testing in the field have proven
conclusively that this works on buffalo, it
will sure work on deer.
Deer string jump compounds shooting 300 fps. Trying to claim that the difference between 170 and 155 fps will make for a missed shot, is a bit silly. The difference in travel time at 20 yards is miniscule. Not irrelevant mind you, just miniscule.
The real question is do you want to increase your chances of penetrating the shoulder blade of the deer you are hunting. If the answer is yes, Asbhy offers a very easy method to increase that potential dramatically.
George, Terry, etc.. are correct. You really need to focus on your form, release, etc... first, then work until you are confident where you look is where you hit, and stay inside those ranges for hunting shots. Then if you want, increase your existing set ups penetration, optimize your arrow.
QuoteOriginally posted by Richie Nell:
Or do you think, "Well, I know that is going to happen. I know the deer is going to move on shots. I am going to do some things to beef up my ammo, tune it well, put the same scary sharp broadhead on it and greatly increase my chances of killing a deer even with a "bad" shot.
Based on what you guys have been saying..I am inferring that you do not do the latter. Why not? To me that makes more sense.
I agree completely. The point is there are SEVERAL WAYS to improve the equation. You might, for instance, choose to shoot a 71# bow (as it says in your signature at the bottom of your posts). The Ashby data certainly does not require such a bow for pass through shots on deer. Yet you choose to shoot higher poundage (as do I, by the way), likely to increase your horsepower. I choose large broadheads for the same reason. I'll gladly take the possible downside of this (ie less heavy bone penetration) for the upside (ie more damage on a marginal "soft tissue" hit).
When I hunted water buffalo I read the reports and developed my setup accordingly (1000+gr arrow @ 165-170 fps out of a 75lb recurve with a high quality modified STOS head). For whitetails I apply other compromises - as stated above.
I certainly would never say I have as much experience shooting buffalo as the Doc. However just myself and my family have well over 100 yrs combined experience hunting (and recovering) whitetails shot in real conditions and tracked under real circumstances - likely much more in that specific situation than the Doc will ever have. Due to this experience I disagree with the Doc's conclusions that recovery of wounded animals is due more to penetration than to wound channel size. Just has not been my experience - remember, the animals 95% of the folks hunt 99% of the time are not difficult to shoot through. I don't think Ed ever meant his data to be followed dogmatically, but applied correctly under the right circumstances.
Ryan
Does anyone ever use the term "BUCK FEVER" anymore or is that now called "A LIGHT ARROW SET UP".Not sure But I would have to agree with Terry,Rob,Charlie,George,Curt,and Ryan They have probably shot more arrows into animals in their combined years hunting than Dr.Ashby shot arrows in all of his reported test.The Indians killed buffalo and they didn't read any reports or have scales or calculators and all the technical crap! they had good aim.
I use to be a Indiana Bowhunter Education Instructer years ago and one thing drilled into the students was " when a perfect shot becomes a marginal shot, dont let your equipment be the factor between sucess and failure." That was directed at the expandable craze then but should be applied to every piece of equipment that goes afield with us. I quess when it comes to your arrow set up, you are the judge and jury. Agree, bad shots happen, stacking the variables in your favor, smart, room for improvement, always. I shoot 57# at my draw with a 760 grain arrow. "Overkill"...you betcha. When perfect shot becomes marginal who wishes they had a lighter arrow?? By no means I'm telling you this is what it takes to be sucessful, just my way of controlling one of the many variables involved with bowhunting.
QuoteOriginally posted by Ryan Rothhaar:
... I don't think Ed ever meant his data to be followed dogmatically, but applied correctly under the right circumstances.
Ryan
+1 :wavey:
QuoteOriginally posted by lpcjon2:
Does anyone ever use the term "BUCK FEVER" anymore or is that now called "A LIGHT ARROW SET UP".Not sure
that's the non-gear side of the equation, and boy is it sure prone for problems!
But I would have to agree with Terry,Rob,Charlie,George,Curt,and Ryan They have probably shot more arrows into animals in their combined years hunting than Dr.Ashby shot arrows in all of his reported test.
count me out of that list - it's those others who are the true bowhunters and they know precisely what they're doing. :thumbsup:
The Indians killed buffalo and they didn't read any reports or have scales or calculators and all the technical crap! they had good aim.
perhaps. then again, i'll betcha they at least knew the difference between a dull stone head and one that was razor sharp, and which one to carry hunting. it's all just knowledge, do with it as you like.
....
Well every bad shot that I have ever made has been my fault.It has never been because my equipment was not plenty for what I was hunting.If a deer moves it is because I tried a shot I should not have made.It is because I did not quiten my bow well enough or read the animal as well as I should when decideing if the shot was there.I am the ONLY one to blame.I pick,tune and shoot my gear.No one or no deer does that.I hit one deer in the shoulder that I did not shoot through.Just so happens it was with the heaviest bow and arrow I have hunted with.That is one time in over 30years where a cape buffaloe setup might have been better.There have been a lot more times that A larger broadhead would have made a difference however.Bigger holes and more blood can often mean the difference in recovery or not.There are far more deer shot too far back that ever get hit in the shoulder.
If you want insurance and you are shooting those heavy bows and arrows a big snuffer or treeshark will give you a lot better policy than skinny single bevels every will hunting deer or most of the things we hunt. :) jmho
perhaps. then again, i'll betcha they at least knew the difference between a dull stone head and one that was razor sharp, and which one to carry hunting. it's all just knowledge, do with it as you like.
Rob you are one quick guy...LOL was that a sharp or razor sharp response. :clapper:
Ipcjon,
Just for the record, I will gladly take a bet on those numbers of total shots. It's pretty likely that I can let them count their small game too! Over just the last quarter century the number of test shots now numbers in the the multiple thousands ... not including the 627 bow-killed big game animals and the uncounted total of smaller game taken during that same period! Now, I don't have an actual record of the kills for the quarter centure before I started keeping records, but that's a few hundred more bow-kills to add in too.
Oh, and none of the Indians killed buffalo; they killed bison - a totally different, thin skinned, open-ribbed animal!
Ed
Larry,
Here's the link to the 2007, Part 8 Update that list the penetration factors and the degree of importance/effect/influence each has.
http://www.tradgang.com/ashby/2007update8.pdf
There will be a more definiteve 'heavy bone penetration' update coming with the 2008 testing Updates, but it's still several months away from publication (it's around Part 7 or 8).
Hope the info helps,
Ed
Come on guys dont start beating me up aabout the shot being bad because if you go back to page one you will see that I was the first one to say the shot was bad. I never blamed the equipment i meerly asked if you guys thought the set up was adaquite.and if you thought if the arrow should have penetrated the shoulder, I understand that tons of stuff comes into play when you loose an arrow. I quess I was looking to ease the pain a little.I respect almost all of the replys here and some of them I have never thought of now shed some new light.
LA
627 Big game animals in the last 25 years.You must be shooting close to 2 every day of the year. :notworthy:
How many of those are southern whitetail deer?That seems to be what most of these penitration threads are talking about.Those thin skinned bison make shooting whitails a bit like busting water ballons.Why can't anyone else realise that. ;) :D
Thanks Dr.
I will take a look
James, I did have some good runs!
The first four years I lived in Africa I averaged 300 days/year of hunting ... until I took up doing a bit of guiding ... and I've been retired, and more or less a full time 'bush bum' for all of the last 16 years. No money, but lots of time to hunt ... and I've tended to frequent places without seasons or bag limits.
Life can be SOOOOO GOOD!
Ed
Dr.Ashby please do not feel that I am insulting you in any way.Its simply that what happens when hunting doesn't always have to be a mechanical error with equipment.
And how many animals do you think you harvested before you started testing the FOC theory? Didn't you shoot bows with just a good flying arrow at a normal weight and make clean kills?
George,
I appreciate your response to my questions. If you would answer the first question;
QuoteFirst of all assuming that any arrow ladams shoots is well tuned with a sharp broadhead...that is a given. It may actually NOT have been the case but we don't know that but for the question below...it was.
Explain to me why ladams WOULD NOT have been better off and increased his chances of killing that deer had he used a heavier arrow with high FOC. Why would he NOT have improved his chances?
Based on what I have heard so far I just have to chalk this up as... I am not experienced enough with bowhunting. I personally do not need to think for a second that I have it figured out enough to object to... or have a better answer than.... the best actual, factual, hands on research regarding arrow lethality thay anyone has ever done.
OK MY $.02 cents worth....
Sometimes you have to NOT SHOOT....
I watched Fred Ichler shoot a groper from a ground blind on a video I bought the other night. He starts by saying this is a buck of a lifetime...OH NO I SAID to myself.
The buck turns at the watering hole and is at a pretty EXTREME angle to the shooter.
I think -nope I am sure I wouldn't have taken the shot.
He took it and it hit the buck in the extreme rear and out the otherside...killed it - it went about 100 yards.
It was a marginal shot at best, but I think he put himself in a bad state of mind (we all do it sometime). He got himself worked up and took the shot anyway.
I am not saying he is unethical don't get me wrong, and he seems to be a good shot under pressure, but I think sometimes we have to NOT SHOOT.
PS - his shot on the grizz standing up..made my heart race. I have been told a million times not to take that shot...but he was confident he could do it. If that arrow would have caught one of those scrub brushes he was standing in...well I will say that it could have got real ugly real quick.
jer Bear
Timothy, most of the big game kills on my list during the last quarter century were taked with an EFOC arrow setup. Now, at the time I didn't KNOW that it was an EFOC setup, or even what EFOC did. I didn't understand what high MA single-bevel broadheads did either, but I was using them. Why? Because it was the arrow setup that had, hands down, worked the very best; proving to be the most lethal of all setups tested in the original Natal Study.
That arrow setup was an original Forgewood with the 190 grain Grizzly. I still have a few. They measure just over 19% FOC. From that setup I've gradually moved to higher and higher FOC setups.
During this last quarter century I've hit and failed to recover only 4 big game animals. One was a mule deer that was picked up by other hunters before I reached it. A kill, but one "I" failed to recover. Then there was a Minnesota black bear that jumped into a deep water swamp. I waded out as deep as I could go but was unable to follow any further. (It was a remote area; no boat, and no way to get one there.) Then I lost 2 pigs in Austraila in 8 seconds. Both ran out onto the mud flats. One I could see down, but not the other. I tried to reach them, but my wrecked knees made it impossible for me to wade the mud.
I lost more game during the first quarter century I hunted than I like to think about; animals I would not lose today. (Knowledge is the most important thing a bowhunter carries to the woods ... and I've found some during all these years.) My worst single-year loss was the first year I hunted with a compound, using light arrows and replacable blade, multiblade broadheads. I hit and failed to recover four deer that year alone.
" Didn't you shoot bows with just a good flying arrow at a normal weight and make clean kills?" Yes, I did. During those early years I cleanly killed a fair amount of game with such an arrow setup ... but I hit and failed to recover a fair share too; far, far more than I have since concentrating on an arrow setup that maximized the arrow's terminal performance.
Ed
Thanks doc and I have read some of your stuff and I do on some arrows use a chisel tip as you demonstrated.I try not to get as technical in the Trad hunting as I did when I did the wheels.
My number 1 priority is an exit hole. I think the good Doc's set up gives me the best chance for obtaining one. Great to see you on here Doc.
Ladams, I am sorry. I was not trying to beat you up. My post was more of a rant towards those that think a bad shot comes from external factors. IMO, a bad shot usually results from the archer, I am a good example of that. I wasn't trying to bash you, I just have some issues to deal with myself. I will try to answer your original question.
I am an accountant and in this profession we use the phrase 'facts and circumstances'......it means no bright line test can be applied. The IRS will look at the 'facts and circumstances' of a situation to determine proper tax treatment. I think the same idea of 'facts and circumstanes' can be used with hunting... especially w/ bone hits.
When you get a shoulder hit, the 'facts and circumstances' determine what is going to happen. IMO every bone hit is different, and the penetration will depend on what bone you hit and how you hit it (angle, etc) and what you hit it with. I am not saying that anyone needs to hunt deer w/ a heavy setup but I would like to think a heavy setup would help on the rare event of a shoulder hit. I have never hit nearside shoulder so I cant say for certain. Is the heavier setup worth the tradeoff? That's for the archer to decide. Everything in life and in hunting is a tradeoff...... its a question of what you wanna get and what you're willing to give up/accept.
Ladams....I think your setup is more than adequate for WT deer. But specifically for a shoulder hit? I have no idea, it would depend on which part of the shoulder blade or humerus you hit and how the scenario played out.
I think there is a lot to be gleamed from those Ashby reports and if I have not yet said so before......I am very grateful for the work Dr. Ashby has done. I am currently moving up in bow weight for kicks and giggles but here are my results from 2009. My arrow setup was in part influenced by the Doctor's work.
Doe at 19 yards ever so slightly quartering away. At feeder. 513 grain arrow entered nearside ribs, completely thru spine, parazlying deer, thru offside ribs and blade lodged into offside scapula and then broke at alum threads. Recovery = zero yards. No more hunting at feeders for me. The shot was a very well executed and accurate shot..... low to the pocket but the doe ducked at the shot and she took it in the spine. She did not look wired by her body language but IMO when deer are at feeders they are always wired. This was a 125 Magnus screw in + 100 brass.
Spike at 15-16 yards. Treestand no feeder. Broadside 513 grains. My release was terrible and it sent the arrow careening. I should have passed this shot. Spine shot. Blade lodged into spine and arrow/BH interface stayed intact. I still have the blade as lodged in the vertebrae. This was a 125 Magnus screw in + 100 brass.
Spike at 17.5 yards in a field from a tripod no feeder. Slightly quartering towards 580 grains. Arrow entered in front of nearside leg, thru chest cavity and exited thru farside ribs near armpit of farside leg. Arrow not stuck into dirt, rather justly lying on top of Johnson grass. Didn't realize it at the time but that heavier arrow w/ the 200 grain WW was WAY WAY WAY too weak for my setup. Single lung hit, wont take that shot again. He was up for too long after the shot. Ran about 200 yards and bedded, then up, then down dead. First WW that I ever shot at a live animal. That was a really dumb shot (not to mention crazy for NOT having bareshafted the 2nd set of arrows) but for some reason the shot felt right at the time and the shot process happened so quick I did not think about much other than focus on the spot and smooth release. It was an accurate shot. Albeit risky. Like I said wont take it again. If I had shot that deer in the same spot with an equally out of tune, less FOC, fatter arrow... would I have gotten the same penetration? I'm not gonna try to find out.
All of the above deer were shot w/ Axis ST 500 skinnies and either Magnus 125s + 100 brass inserts for 225 grains up front OR 200 grain WW on steel adapter + 100 brass inserts for 300 grains up front. All shots were with my 1965 Howatt 37#@27
I still have a lot of work to do. Working on restraint while hunting is where I'm trying to start. Tuning, form, etc. Still have lot to learn.
QuoteOriginally posted by onewhohasfun:
My number 1 priority is an exit hole. I think the good Doc's set up gives me the best chance for obtaining one.
That's what the original posted did, and it didn't work. I think that's the whole point of some peoples comments here.
I am always confused how this kind of discussion becomes a them against us issue. If you like light arrows and shoot them well, by all means shoot them. Same with heavy high foc arrows. your experiences determine what you choose to shoot.
The real point of this discussion was how could he increase penetration on marginal hits. Both sides have posted a bunch of great answers.
Just because your highly experienced and love light arrows does not mean that those who want to use heavy high foc arrows are against you or your way. It is just not their way of doing things.
This is America folks, to each their own. I can't see one reason for any side to be upset or bashing the others methods or techniques. Personally I like heavy high foc arrows. They shoot well to my hunting shot range boundary of 25 yards and hit like a hammer. Just my preference.
George, and a bunch of other light arrow shooters can shoot circles around me at longer ranges, and I bet at least most of the time probably at closer ranges to. They simply have more shooting time in than I have been breathing. Their way works perfect for them.
I say we quite arguing about arrow weights and start discussing why we all need to be better trackers and how to do that.
Oh, the average shot distance for american indians hunting Bison was well under 20 yards, and often at 6 to 8 feet off horseback. Most bow weights were between 25 and 40 lbs back then. Pretty easy to get good penetration on a Bison at those ranges even with an ultralight arrow. They preferred getting really close, it was part of their culture to show they were brave, just like counting coup on an enemy. Plus if they lost a few wounded bison, with 3,000,000 more I doubt they went to a whole lot of effort to track them down when there were 10 to 20 laying around dead to be worked on.
excellent article dr. ashby. i mentioned that arrows can bounce off ribs and that broadheads, from powerful bows, can be stopped by ribs on the *********** and was all but laughed off the topic. i've skinned between 700-1000 and have found around a dozen broadheads either stuck in ribs or just under them. i'm really wishing i had saved them.
Well said Clay. I just started a new post on this very subject. Debates on T/G
I haven't read all the replies, but the answer to the question is "no" your set-up won't penetrate a whitetail shoulder (at least not every time) as you have seen.
Now what can you do to increase penetration (if that's what you want)?
1. Change your arrow to a small(er) diameter front-loaded carbon.
2. Get a bow with more horsepower.
3. Use a heavier arrow.
4. Some combo of the the above 3.
I don't think a broadhead change will help much if at all. Of course this all assumes your arrow is flying well and your broadhead is sharp.
None of this addresses shot placement since that wasn't your question.
This doe was shot with a fast recurve (55@29), a magnusII and about a 570gr arrow. Through the near shoulder and stopped by the off side shoulder. Animals can be tough.
(http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n217/dave27615/deer1-1.jpg)
It seems to me the OP doesn't need a lecture on shot placement. Sounds like he knows where it should have been. I doubt he needs to hear it was his fault. We all miss - even the best and it's always our fault. The question is how can he increase his penetration. The evidence is solid. He cannot increase his penetration from more speed, or larger cutting diameter broadheads. The evidence Dr Ashby has accumulated is pretty darn convincing that he can increase his penetration by using extreme FOC arrows, extremely sharp single bevel 2 blade broadheads, and arrow weight of at least 650 grains and skinny arrows with larger diameter ferrule on the broadhead.
All this doesn't mean the shot he just missed would have penetrated for a kill. No one knows that. However, we do know that his odds of getting greater penetration go up if he follows those recommendations.
Larry,
Sorry you lost one but am glad that you care enough about doing the right thing that you posted this to get opinions, sounds like he will probably survive [IMO]. Lots of good advice here as always, probably a few hundred years of total experience in this post. I shot 2018's for a few years a while back and they do work, best thing to do is go double lung one. Heck he may even come back by!
Vince its just like riding a bike if you fall off just get right back on and go again.
I hope to see you at the high country choot this year.
LA
QuoteOriginally posted by charles m:
QuoteOriginally posted by onewhohasfun:
My number 1 priority is an exit hole. I think the good Doc's set up gives me the best chance for obtaining one.
That's what the original posted did, and it didn't work. I think that's the whole point of some peoples comments here. [/b]
not every 'best setup' can or will produce 'best results'. though it does help to try yer best, methinks.
QuoteOriginally posted by Ladams:
Come on guys dont start beating me up aabout the shot being bad because if you go back to page one you will see that I was the first one to say the shot was bad. I never blamed the equipment i meerly asked if you guys thought the set up was adaquite.and if you thought if the arrow should have penetrated the shoulder, I understand that tons of stuff comes into play when you loose an arrow. I quess I was looking to ease the pain a little.I respect almost all of the replys here and some of them I have never thought of now shed some new light.
LA
It's too bad it comes to this a guy has a simple question and all the other gentlemen that explained BAD shots they have taken accused of blaming their equipement. No one is perfect and I think we all know that. It's a learning process and knowing when to shoot no matter what the tackle
Looking forward to the high country already, see ya there!
Ladams I was not trashing your shooting,or did not mean to do so.I was just concerned that there were those that think all it takes is a heavy arrow to fix such shots.While that may be true some of the time it certainly is not the case with most shots that did not hit where they are supposed to go.It is seldom the case with whitetail deer because most bad shots are through there bellys or livers.For those shots nothing beats a large broadhead that cuts enough to leave something to follow.We all blow shots at times.We are not machines only human. :)
ED no way I could stand hunting 300 days out of a year.After a couple days I am ready for a rest. :D I don't even want to think about skinning all those critters either! :biglaugh:
QuoteOriginally posted by James Wrenn:
...It is seldom the case with whitetail deer because most bad shots are through there bellys or livers. For those shots nothing beats a large broadhead that cuts enough to leave something to follow.We all blow shots at times. We are not machines only human. :) ...
absolutely agree on all accounts. :thumbsup:
no problems here james
I have been taking all this as constructive criticism.
LA
Zach,
QuoteIt's too bad it comes to this a guy has a simple question and all the other gentlemen that explained BAD shots they have taken accused of blaming their equipement. No one is perfect and I think we all know that. It's a learning process and knowing when to shoot no matter what the tackle
Noone said it was the stinkin equipment that causes a bad shot. Correct, noone is perfect. The point is bad shots do occur to most everyone except George and a few others. There aren't but 1001 reasons why an arrow may hit the wrong spot.
The Ashby reports prove ways to make the most out of a "bad" shot.
We strive to be the best hunting shots we can be.
Straight flying arrows, carrying razor sharp broadheads, guided by hands and eyes honed keen from untold hours of practicing. A bowhunters` responsibility.
We always learn something from the good AND bad experiences.
Your set up, as has already been stated, is good medicine for whitetails. Be brave, and hunt hard.
QuoteOriginally posted by Bonebuster:
We strive to be the best hunting shots we can be.
Straight flying arrows, carrying razor sharp broadheads, guided by hands and eyes honed keen from untold hours of practicing. A bowhunters` responsibility.
We always learn something from the good AND bad experiences.
Your set up, as has already been stated, is good medicine for whitetails. Be brave, and hunt hard.
another good response, to be taken to heart. :thumbsup:
QuoteOriginally posted by Richie Nell:
...
The Ashby reports prove ways to make the most out of a "bad" shot.
yessir.
imho, at the very least, doc's reports allow for serious considerations of arrow and broadhead design and build, to maybe try out, make up one's own mind. i think that's all he's saying and offering.
the human aspect of making the good shoot is always gonna be fraught with human frailties.
to err is human. i prove my humanity daily. :D
"Noone is without sin, no not one." Romans 3:10
I am very fortunate to be able to login and discuss these matters and learn, learn, learn. There can't be a better place in which to do this.
Thanks for the opportunity.
Romans 3:10 love it!
I've of recent been reading up on doc's findings and have been shooting some Grizzly BH...I will be using a single bevel bh on a turkey this year.
QuoteOriginally posted by Richie Nell:
The Ashby reports prove ways to make the most out of a "bad" shot.
Correction: The Ashby reports prove ways to
possibly make the most out of
one type of "bad" shot.
1. There's no guarantee that any arrow combination will make a difference in any bad shot. You can follow Ed's guidelines straight down the line and still not be guaranteed to get an arrow through a deer's shoulder bones.
2. There have been many folks here (Curt, Terry, Charlie, Ryan for example) who have made excellent cases for large, multi-blade heads in the event that said bad shot is behind the diaphragm.
Jason,
Quote1. There's no guarantee that any arrow combination will make a difference in any bad shot. You can follow Ed's guidelines straight down the line and still not be guaranteed to get an arrow through a deer's shoulder bones.
You can also follow Dr. Ed's guidelines straight down the line and not see the word "guarantee"... or where he implies a guarantee.
Jason, what bow/arrow setup do you use that is better and more lethal on big bones than what is recommended in Dr. Ed's reports? And where can I get a setup just like it?
QuoteOriginally posted by Richie Nell:
Jason,
Quote1. There's no guarantee that any arrow combination will make a difference in any bad shot. You can follow Ed's guidelines straight down the line and still not be guaranteed to get an arrow through a deer's shoulder bones.
You can also follow Dr. Ed's guidelines straight down the line and not see the word "guarantee"... or where he implies a guarantee. [/b]
Exactly; hence my first point.
QuoteOriginally posted by Richie Nell:
Jason, what bow/arrow setup do you use that is better and more lethal on big bones than what is recommended in Dr. Ed's reports? And where can I get a setup just like it?
Impact with "big bones" is not the only bad shot possibility bowhunters face; hence my second point.
Some interesting reading for those that have some time.....
http://tradgang.com/noncgi/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=068449#000000
Jason,
NOONE has said there is a guarantee...so what is your point? It is about increasing your chances of killing an animal when you hit big bone.
Do you think the Ashby recommendations will increase your chances of recovering an animal after a big bone hit?
I agree with you about the "bad" gut shot. It does seem that a larger broadhead may be better.
I ask you again:
QuoteJason, what bow/arrow setup do you use that is better and more lethal on big bones than what is recommended in Dr. Ed's reports? And where can I get a setup just like it?
I didnt read them all but that is very interesting Curt.
LA
As I stated in another thread, I love Ed's work and read it religiously. Then I sit and think about it and make my own decisions.
I am guessing that those dead critters that he is repeatedly shooting with his test arrows don't have a lot of tendency to jump the string, or move in much of any way. Any movement of the deer deflects the path of the arrow and your perfect flight goes down the tubes. A pefectly still deer whose shoulder blade moves (as does the deer when it gets knocked back) from a solid shoulder hit deflects the arrow, there goes perfect arrow flight.
A shoulder BLADE hit, from the ground typically means the arrow is going into an area of the deer that does not have lungs and heart and even chest cavity behind it, same with some shots from above. It is just a bad placement, period. As was stated in prior threads, a deer's movement for escape will take it down then away (forward or to spin) meaning you are much more likely to hit back than front of the diaphram. Most of us are taught to aim too far back in the first place, meaning that "perfect hit" is really already too far back.
Richie, although Ed has dabbled into lighter set ups more recently (thank you ED), Ed's bow and arrow and broadhead set up were WAY.. repeat WAY heavier and had WAY more mechanical advantage than what we typically discuss here.
ChuckC
QuoteOriginally posted by Guru:
Some interesting reading for those that have some time.....
http://tradgang.com/noncgi/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=068449#000000
one of
THE best threads on trad gang. :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
pretty much required reading for all, imho.
QuoteOriginally posted by Jason R. Wesbrock:
2. There have been many folks here (Curt, Terry, Charlie, Ryan for example) who have made excellent cases for large, multi-blade heads in the event that said bad shot is behind the diaphragm.
I've always been under the impression that a gut-shot was a dead animal. When I was young, I lost a couple because I couldn't find them, not because they didn't die. Once I learned to sneak away and come back 12 hours later, I found them all. Are you guys finding that some survive a gut-shot with a small broadhead?
QuoteOriginally posted by ChuckC: A shoulder BLADE hit, from the ground typically means the arrow is going into an area of the deer that does not have lungs and heart and even chest cavity behind it, same with some shots from above.
Once again, I'm not finding this to be the norm, but it does depend on the angle of the animal to the arrow's line of flight. I've killed many from the ground where the arrow went through the scapula and killed the animal quickly. Depending on the angle, vitals can definitely be in the line of flight. Maybe I'm just lucky, or maybe it's because I tend to shoot FOCs over 25% and arrow weights around 12-14 grains per pound. Point is - I don't worry about gut-shots - those are dead animals. I do worry about shoulder hits and do what I can reasonably do to increase the odds of getting through it.
Str8arrow,
It sounds to me like you have made preparations for human error and now have nothing to worry about except freezer room.
I want to be like you one day.
From str8arrow,
"I've killed many from the ground where the arrow went through the scapula and killed the animal quickly."
So you aren't opposed to taking bad angle shots?
The archer is in charge of the angle...not the deer. Approaching angle....I pass, and that is the only angle that includes the fore side scapula.
So are you guys okay with just going ahead now and shooting into heavy bone, bucause you think it is okay?
Richie....I haven't had any bad hits for thirty plus years because I choose not to. It's a choice...even for big tough guys who shoot heavy bows and single bevels. One doesn't have to take a risky shot. An experienced hunter, can choose his angle....but he has to forego the shot if everything isn't perfect in his mind. That's how I do it. So your sarcasm holds no quarter with me. Choices....that's what it's about...not brute power and suspect shots.
QuoteOriginally posted by Str8Arrow:
QuoteOriginally posted by Jason R. Wesbrock:
2. There have been many folks here (Curt, Terry, Charlie, Ryan for example) who have made excellent cases for large, multi-blade heads in the event that said bad shot is behind the diaphragm.
I've always been under the impression that a gut-shot was a dead animal. When I was young, I lost a couple because I couldn't find them, not because they didn't die. Once I learned to sneak away and come back 12 hours later, I found them all. Are you guys finding that some survive a gut-shot with a small broadhead?
[/b]
You are correct; a gut shot is a dead animal. But blood trailing them is where the difficulty can lie. It's been said on threads such as these that no one ever hits a shoulder blade and wishes they had a bigger broadhead. I agree. I've also heard it said that no one ever gut or paunch shoots an animal and wishes they had used a smaller broadhead. I agree with that too.
Broadhead selection is somewhat of a "pick your poison" situation. Some folks are worried about bad hits involving heavy entrance side bone, and therefore use narrow, two-blade heads. Others are concerned about bad hits behind the diaphragm, and select large, multi-blade heads. There are enough decades of solid evidence to support both positions, so neither is necessarily right or wrong.
The same decisions apply to arrow weight. Some folks are worried about bad hits due to range estimation problems, and choose light, flat-shooting arrows. Others are concerned about penetration, and select heavy, slow arrows. Just like broadheads, both schools of thought are sound, so neither is universally right or wrong.
I've followed this thread from the beginning and it has been a good, informative thread. I enjoy this type of thread and I think we can all benefit from it. Jason, I think your last post summed it up extremely well. Sometimes we perhaps need to adjust our setup based on the situation at hand - flexibility it's called. That's why threads like this that explore the good and bad of all the various combinations is useful.
QuoteOriginally posted by George D. Stout:
From str8arrow,
"I've killed many from the ground where the arrow went through the scapula and killed the animal quickly."
So you aren't opposed to taking bad angle shots?
The archer is in charge of the angle...not the deer. Approaching angle....I pass, and that is the only angle that includes the fore side scapula.
If the deer is downhill from me and completely broadside, you can hit the scapula and the lungs. If you're wondering if I only take quartering away shots - no, I take others too. It depends on the distance, wind and other factors whether I take a given shot. If I think I have a very good chance of making it, I take it. If your ethics tell you not to unless you have a 100% chance of making it, you better not shoot. Nobody has those odds.
QuoteSo are you guys okay with just going ahead now and shooting into heavy bone, bucause you think it is okay?
I doubt anyone does it on purpose, but stuff happens and arrows don't always end up where intended. My ethics tell me to do my best to pick a set-up that will have a higher chance to work when that "stuff" happens and heavier bone is hit.
QuoteI haven't had any bad hits for thirty plus years because I choose not to.
I suppose anyone could wait for that quartering away shot at 5 yards - passing up all others, just to make sure, but my ethics say that's not necessary. Animals make inadvertent movements when you don't expect them to. They aren't stationary objects without movement. Eyesight can fail to see that twig that deflects the arrow. A release can be less than smooth under the pressure. Murphy's law says lots of things can happen to spoil the best of plans. Those are the odds I play.
With all your chewin', you are basically telling us our arrows are inadequate...that's ridiculous and purely condescending, and not based on fact.
Your argument is against what we choose, more than it is for what you choose. Our experience means nothing to you, but you will wrap yourself around a study that is incomplete as it did not include most models needed for a true scientific study.
I have an idea those efoc arrows work great, as do the single bevel broadheads....but you seem more concerned with proving ours as not worthy.
You are way off base on that. And by the way, most broadside shots don't entail hitting the scapula....if you do, you missed the spot big time.
QuoteOriginally posted by Str8Arrow:
I doubt anyone does it on purpose, but stuff happens and arrows don't always end up where intended. My ethics tell me to do my best to pick a set-up that will have a higher chance to work when that "stuff" happens and heavier bone is hit.
Or, ...said another way....
I doubt anyone does it on purpose, but stuff happens and arrows don't always end up where intended. My ethics tell me to do my best to pick a set-up that will have a higher chance to work when that "stuff" happens and the hit is TOO FAR BACK....
I prepare for the most HIGHLY PROBABLE worst case scenario. Based on the animals I hunt and their tendency to step forward on the shot than backward.
This thread sums up what I have found for myself through my own experiences years ago, and I've found it to be true. Not only me....
Here it is again..... (http://tradgang.com/noncgi/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=068449#000000)
QuoteOriginally posted by George D. Stout:
With all your chewin', you are basically telling us our arrows are inadequate...that's ridiculous and purely condescending, and not based on fact.
Your argument is against what we choose, more than it is for what you choose. Our experience means nothing to you, but you will wrap yourself around a study that is incomplete as it did not include most models needed for a true scientific study.
What are you drinking? I'm relaying my experience and my reasoning. If you interpret that as a slam on you, then you got a problem. No where did I say anything about your methods. My post to you was mostly about shot choices and how I don't have to have a 100% chance of success in order to take a shot. Relax and read a little more carefully.
QuoteAnd by the way, most broadside shots don't entail hitting the scapula....
And I suppose you can find somewhere in my words where I said that it did?
QuoteOriginally posted by Terry Green:
This thread sums up what I have found for myself through my own experiences years ago, and I've found it to be true. Not only me....
Here it is again..... (http://tradgang.com/noncgi/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=068449#000000)
I happen to also believe that most misses are back, but like I said before, that's a dead deer in my freezer. It's not the kind of miss I'm worried about. I think it's fine that we each have our individual concerns and that we address them the way we see best.
For folks like George, who make only perfect hits, the arrow setup they choose to use will never matter much. I just do not know how anyone manages to never make a bad hit.
The last truly bad hit I made was about 3 years ago. It was on a pig, standing dead still, broadside, a mere 18 yards away. It was facing to my right (the pig's right side facing me), with its head turned to its left (away from me). I aimed on the shoulder, right straight above the ball joint. As I took the shot, and as near as I could discern perfectly coincidental with my release, another pig, off to my left and out of sight, snorted. The pig I was shooting at wheeled immediately, and the arrow hit squarely, broadside in the LEFT gut.
It was a pass through shot with a single-blade broadhead. Within 10 yards I found blood but, as is my custom with any pure gut hit, I backed out and waited 12 hours before following the spoor. The pig was recovered approximately 160 yards from where it was hit. Being not pressed immediately after the hit the pig had bedded down and the wound from the super-sharp broadhead left a wound that had continued to bleed freely. Altogether, it was an easy recovery on a very poor hit.
However, the point is I just don't see how anyone who shoots very much game can never, ever have a bad hit. Stuff DOES happen, regardless of how hard one tries. No one could ask for a more perfect shot setup than I had on that pig. Not alerted, looking away, standing still and perfectly broadside in the bald open.
Now, I've had FAR more of what most would call a 'bad hit' occur on the bones of the shoulder than I have had 'back of the diaphragm'. That's very likely because I aim on the shoulder, not back of the shoulder. That greatly reduces the number of 'too far back' hits. Most animals that move to the sound of a shot duck and then either move forward or turn to their right or left.
Let's analyze that. If an animal ducks down the shot goes high. Spine? If aiming on the shoulder it could mean scapular flat, or scapular flat plus spine. It they turn either left or right or, even worse, both move forward and turn to either side, AND you are aiming 'back of the shoulder' you have just set up for a perfect one lung hit - the hit that is most likely to NOT be a fatal hit. If you are aiming ON the shoulder of an animal the animal has to make a far greater degree of left or right turn (or move forward, with a left or right turn) before one lung passes through and out of the 'kill zone' of your aiming point. If you are aiming ON the shoulder and the animal jumps straight forward it again has to move a far greater distance before the lungs pass through and out of the 'kill zone' of you aiming point.
In the last quarter century I've not had an arrow stopped by any shoulder bone, or combination of shoulder bones, on a single hunted animal. That takes in a fair number of big game animals, with many being "sizable" critters. Some believe that there is no such thing as a 'bone breaking arrow'. In the 2007-2008 testing, EVERY penetration enhanced, structurally secure EFOC/Ultra-EFOC arrow having a mass weight above the Heavy Bone Threshold passed through the heavy bones of the Asian buffalo. That includes EVERY rib, scapula and spine hit. This represents 169 CONSECUTIVE HEAVY BONE HITS with such an arrow setup. Only half of those shots (52%) were with the heavier 82# Straight end longbow, and nearly 20% of the shots were with the 40# recurve! The balance of those 169 shots were with 54#, 64# and 70# longbows, with less than 3% of the shots being with a 60# compound. No arrow setup is a bone breaker? What do you think is the "likely outcome" with any of these arrow/bow combinations when hitting the heavy bones of a deer sized animal? Failing to smash through even the heaviest bones in a deer's body is about as close to a 'nil probability' as one can get. When using such an arrow setup there is no reason to fear the bones of the shoulder, should you hit one, and therefore no reason not to aim directly on the shoulder, reducing the likelihood of either a single lung hit or a hit too far back. (There will be a more complete reporting on the Study's bone-breaking shots, and this entire topic, in one of the later 2008 Updates.)
I'll never have any problems with the setup any bowhunter is using if he rarely (or never) hits and fails to recover game. If he is hitting and failing to recover game on anything more than a 'rarely' basis, then his arrow setup can be improved.
After what is now over a half century of big game bowhunting I am totally convinced that a solid body hit ANYWHERE with a TRULY SHARP broadhead results in a dead and recoverably animal IF the arrow penetrates sufficiently AND the hunter has the skills and knowledge to proper follow-up after the hit. The one acceptation is the one-ling hit. If the BH is TRULY sharp there's a higher probability of a one lung hit proving fatal, but the follow-up of a one-lung hit animal (even with that TRULY SHARP broadhead) should be just like that for a pure gut hit. Press a one-lung hit animal and jump it up and the odds of recovery go way, way down.
Just one point about one lung hits. I've been through several tactical firearms courses, including FLETC (the Federal Law Enforcement Training Center, in Glenco, Georgia). Do you know why law enforcement officers are taught to engage the 'bad guys' from a 'square on' shooting position, instead of the 'facing to the side' position, as was taught by the military for years? Think about it. Facing 'square-on' you give the bad guy(s) a lot bigger target to hit than you do when facing sideways, so why do it? It's because, if you have your side facing the bad guy and he scores a thorax hit you have almost guaranteed a double-ling hit. Facing square-on, though presenting a larger target, you have greatly reduced the odds of a double lung hit. The survival rate from a one lung hit is very high. Survival rate from a double-lung hit it is very low, even with the best and most immediate of medical care!
Ed
Richie,
QuoteOriginally posted by Richie Nell:
Jason,
You can also follow Dr. Ed's guidelines straight down the line and not see the word "guarantee"... or where he implies a guarantee.
Please read the following, excerpted from above:
QuoteOriginally posted by Dr. Ed Ashby:
No arrow setup is a bone breaker? What do you think is the "likely outcome" with any of these arrow/bow combinations when hitting the heavy bones of a deer sized animal? Failing to smash through even the heaviest bones in a deer's body is about as close to a 'nil probability' as one can get. When using such an arrow setup there is no reason to fear the bones of the shoulder, should you hit one, and therefore no reason not to aim directly on the shoulder, reducing the likelihood of either a single lung hit or a hit too far back.
Ed
Thanks Ed. Excellent. Your logic and experience make the most sense to me on this topic. I used it to kill the buff in the picture to the left. Proof is in the pudding.
QuoteOriginally posted by Terry Green:
QuoteOriginally posted by Str8Arrow:
I doubt anyone does it on purpose, but stuff happens and arrows don't always end up where intended. My ethics tell me to do my best to pick a set-up that will have a higher chance to work when that "stuff" happens and heavier bone is hit.
Or, ...said another way....
I doubt anyone does it on purpose, but stuff happens and arrows don't always end up where intended. My ethics tell me to do my best to pick a set-up that will have a higher chance to work when that "stuff" happens and the hit is TOO FAR BACK....
I prepare for the most HIGHLY PROBABLE worst case scenario. Based on the animals I hunt and their tendency to step forward on the shot than backward.
This thread sums up what I have found for myself through my own experiences years ago, and I've found it to be true. Not only me....
Here it is again..... (http://tradgang.com/noncgi/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=068449#000000) [/b]
Terry, thanks for the link; I've never seen that post before.
I use EFOC and a heavy arrow for my set ups but as stated in the other thread "I'm more worried about hitting too far back" and I prefer 4 blade heads but I'm also trying some 3 blade heads. IMO, the more blood on the ground the better. :thumbsup:
Jason, saying something is "close to a nil probability" is not precisely the same as a "guarantee". To be more precise, there is a very, very, very high probability that the likely outcome when using such and arrow setup against the heavy bones of a deer sized animal will be complete penetration of the bone.
On the other hand Richie is precisely correct in the statement he made. Nowhere in the Study Updates (to date) will you see the word "guarantee", nor will you find one implied (relative to the topic at hand). I did guarantee one thing in the published Updates: any setup that is fully adequate for buffalo will be fully adequate on any smaller animal.
So, you ask, why am I saying that heavy bone penetration is the very, very, very likely outcome with these setups now? Simple, I've never had these kind of results until I began testing these specific types of arrow setups. Ergo, there was no data to support that type of conclusion. The data is now there.
So, Jason, are you suggesting that arrows such as described won't reliable break out the heavy bones of a deer size animal? If so, on what data do you base that conclusion?
Ed
QuoteOriginally posted by Dr. Ed Ashby:
So, Jason, are you suggesting that arrows such as described won't reliable break out the heavy bones of a deer size animal? If so, on what data do you base that conclusion?
Ed
For a start, the originator of this thread.
Charles, that wasn't with "arrows such as described". And that's the point. Most commonly used arrow setups won't penetrate the heavy bones of a whitetail ... but there are ones that will.
Ed
QuoteOriginally posted by charles m:
QuoteOriginally posted by Dr. Ed Ashby:
So, Jason, are you suggesting that arrows such as described won't reliable break out the heavy bones of a deer size animal? If so, on what data do you base that conclusion?
Ed
For a start, the originator of this thread. [/b]
The originator of this thread did not have a very well made AShby arrow. Only having a singlebevel does not qualify. Way to much aluminum, not enough arrow weight.
Jason,
I ask you again;
"Jason, what bow/arrow setup do you use that is better and more lethal on big bones than what is recommended in Dr. Ed's reports? And where can I get a setup just like it?"
QuoteOriginally posted by Dr. Ed Ashby:
Nowhere in the Study Updates (to date) will you see the word "guarantee", nor will you find one implied (relative to the topic at hand).
True; nowhere in the
Study Updates. But if telling people that there is
"no reason to fear the bones of the shoulder", and
"no reason not to aim directly on the shoulder", isn't at least an implied guarantee, then we're well into the deep end of the semantics pool.
George,
I ask you again:
George,
I appreciate your response to my questions. If you would answer the first question;
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
First of all assuming that any arrow ladams shoots is well tuned with a sharp broadhead...that is a given. It may actually NOT have been the case but we don't know that but for the question below...it was.
Explain to me why ladams WOULD NOT have been better off and increased his chances of killing that deer had he used a heavier arrow with high FOC. Why would he NOT have improved his chances?
Thanks Dr,ED you about summed it up if they would only open there mind to try some diffrent set ups as in EFOC and heavy arrows they woud be pleasently suprized at the good results! I went to heavy arrows a long time ago and aim at the shoulders of Deer and Moose and almost allways get passthroughs and recover far more animals as I did before I switched to heavy arrows :thumbsup:
QuoteOriginally posted by Jason R. Wesbrock:
QuoteOriginally posted by Dr. Ed Ashby:
Nowhere in the Study Updates (to date) will you see the word "guarantee", nor will you find one implied (relative to the topic at hand).
True; nowhere in the Study Updates. But if telling people that there is "no reason to fear the bones of the shoulder", and "no reason not to aim directly on the shoulder", isn't at least an implied guarantee, then we're well into the deep end of the semantics pool. [/b]
Very true!
I don't have a horse in this race, yet. However, I try to keep an open mind about new research. (And Dr. Ed's research is true research. It follows the scientific method and the methodology is sound.) I would make one observation about this discussion. Dr. Ed has shot hundreds of arrows into critters big and small, alive and dead. The results (not opinion) have shown that an EFOC, single bevel, well flying arrow penetrates better, particularly when bone is hit, than standard/common set-ups in use today. Those who contest these results haven't offered one example of this set up failing to perform as stated for them.
Jason, now let's not go taking things out of context. The FULL quote is: "When using such an arrow setup there is no reason to fear the bones of the shoulder, should you hit one, and therefore no reason not to aim directly on the shoulder, reducing the likelihood of either a single lung hit or a hit too far back."
The omitted parts of the quote are the most important ones! You make it sound as though I said "aim directly at the shoulder bones". That may be what you heard, but it's not what I said.
Where is there a big problem with aiming at the shoulder? Everyone seems quick to say that, if you hit the scapula you've miss all the vitals anyway. Then they post a schematic showing that the scapula well forward of the shoulder when the deer is standing in a leg-straight-down position. So, if the vitals are not directly beneath the scapula what is in the shoulder, between skin and the thorax? Nothing other than meat and ribs.
Please consider that all the true antelope species have vital areas so far forward that a shot hitting back of the shoulder is either a hit right on the diaphragm or back of the diaphragm. No one screams about aiming at the shoulder on the African antelopes, and plenty of folks on this site have been there and hunted them, using that type of aiming point . Almost everyone supports aiming right at the shoulder of pigs, and they have bones heavier than deer. So what's the big bugaboo with aiming at the shoulder of a whitetail or mule deer? Is there a problem passing along information on an aiming spot that will reduce the number of both one-lung hits and hits too far back? Is there a problem with passing along information on arrow setups that have demonstrated the ability VASTLY improve the likelihood of penetrating the shoulder bones IF they happen to be hit?
Ed
Guys I have read very little of Dr Ashbys reports untill this debat flared up.
The last two days I have read alot of his study,
he aint no dummy. what he puts on paper is tried and tru. I dont see any way you can argue with his results because thats what they are is resaults,,,,NOT OPINON
LA
Ed thanks for writing. I think that Jason, myself and others are not so awful concerned about breaking bones. We read your stuff and it is great. No doubt.
There is a lot of thought, however, that is is more of a likely scenario to hit further back than further forward. Sure any sharp stick thru the animal with the CORRECT FOLLOW UP and a fairly skilled tracker will result in a finding. There is a problem there... actually two.
Read the posts, every single year we have post after post of people who make bad hits. I really wish they would keep them to themselves actually and not broadcast the data, but that is just my opinion.
Not everybody here is as qualified, as skilled, as able, has as much perserverence etc etc etc, as a few posting here. If every one of us had this ability we would be getting none of those posts.
Having a large, very sharp broadhead appears (anecdotecally at least) to allow the possibility of a better... more followable blood trail, then that of a narrow bone buster. At least for the crowd that is not born to the trail.
I guarantee you that for me, the trails I have had using three bladed heads far surpass those that I have had using two blade heads. . no question. Some others here apparently have seen the same trend.
It is another point of view. One that at least seems reasonable.
ChuckC
Sorry, I gotta draw the line somewhere....
TradGang will NOT condone the encouragement of purposely taking shoulder blade shots on big game animals.