I and apparently a few other inquiring minds here about want the lowdown on ILS bows.
What does ILS stand for?
My understanding is that an ILS bow allows for great individual tunability, and that limbs/risers can be ready swapped & changed.
how is this tunability affected?
Give us the info, throw us a bone....
EDIT - sorry, just had to correct the title!
ILF......International Limb Fitting.
I believe the term is ILF which stands for International Limb Fitting.You can get ILF limbs from different manufacturers and use them on many different bows that have the ILF limb pockets.Like Morrison ILF,Hoyt risers and many others.They will allow some weight and tiller adjustments.
Cool...
What are the advantages/disadvantages of the system? Do they perform markedly better than convential TDs?...
The advantage is limb availability and adjustability. Performance is no better than other bows.
QuoteOriginally posted by Orion:
The advantage is limb availability and adjustability. Performance is no better than other bows.
I presume adjustabilty refers to draw weight to a degree and tiller? How adjustable are they, and can Joe Archer do it or does a guy have to be a bowyer?
Well they can do better the regular TDs because you can take a $300 riser and put the best limbs in the world on it. You can't get that performance from a single bowyer.
Or take a riser from one bowyer that fits you well and limbs from another that you like.
I'd love to have the interest on the money that has been spent world wide to develop ILF recurve limbs.
Mike
QuoteOriginally posted by wingnut:
Well they can do better the regular TDs because you can take a $300 riser and put the best limbs in the world on it. You can't get that performance from a single bowyer.
Or take a riser from one bowyer that fits you well and limbs from another that you like.
I'd love to have the interest on the money that has been spent world wide to develop ILF recurve limbs.
Mike
It is amazing when a person takes a moment to think about it. What else has been internationally developed to be universal?
Yes, the adjustability range is usually about 5# give or take a pound. And, yes, you can adjust the tiller with the turn of a limb bolt. The average joe can certainly do it. Helps to understand tiller, of course.
I agree, if you take the best ILF limbs and put them against a mediocre TD, the ILF limbs will probably do better. But if you put the best TD limbs against them, the difference,if any, would be miniscule. There are a lot of ILF limbs out there that are mediocre as well. They don't stack up very well against the best T/Ds. So the difference is in availability, selection. One can buy high or mediocre performance in either.
As Bob Morrison pointed out to me about my situation, which is gnarly creeping arthritis, instead of having to keep buying lighter limbs over time as the malise progesses, I can turn down the poundage. As Orion said, Bob also commented it's about 5# diff.
That is a huge selling point to me. Right now, I've got a perfect set of Morrison Cheyenne 54# C limbs I can't shoot... just makes everything ache when I draw a mere 54#!!! But 48# I got used... now that hurts deer, not me! :)
I'm wanting some ILF conversion for my Cheyenne riser that fits like a glove!
Orion
I have 8 bows now and have owned a dozen others.I've also shot lots of demo bows at 3D shoots.So far I have not found any bowyers limbs that shoot better than a $200 set of ILF limbs.
I'm not saying the ILF limbs are better unless you count the price.
I also have 2 sets of high end ILF limbs Winex and Samic Masters.I have never shot any limbs that can equal them.Granted There are a couple of top end bows I haven't tried yet.
let's say you have an open mind about what trad is and you want to put an arrow thru the wing knuckle of a turkey at 18 yds.
(http://i706.photobucket.com/albums/ww66/rustycraine/txgagf3.jpg)
with a little practice and some tuning, ya can do it
rusty
Doc, I'm close, I can do the conversion now, But I need to make it look good. Too many things in the fire right now. It will be done by spring.
RH, my point exactly. Limbs are limbs. Some are better than others, but there's nothing in the ILF system that suddenly transforms recurve limbs into rockets. A number of bowyers who make both simply have a different limb butt/attachment system on one versus the other. The rest of the limb design is the same. I doubt one would see much of a difference between the best Morrison or Border recurve limbs and the best ILF limbs by other manufacturers. By the way, I'm not anti ILF. I rather like them. They've been around for quite a while.
Well, I can see right now an ILF riser at some point in my future. I really like the looks of that 15" one that Trad Tech sells...
Most of the pro's have already been mentioned. One con is in the process of adjusting the poundage and tiller on your ILF set up. Your also changing the geometry of the bow. This is where the solidly mounted non ILF limbed bows have an advantage if the bowyer has done the research and has the limb pads on the non ILF riser at the optimum angle for the best all around performance. I have both types of bows and like both, but this is the way it was explained to me.
I have to disagree with all of you that say that ILF limbs are not better performers than regular limbs. If you shoot high end limbs, carbon foam, for example, you will find obvious performance improvements. For one, the ILF target limbs out there (like the Winex) are the best limbs in the world. The companies that make such limbs have dumped many dollars in to RD in order to come up with limbs and limb materials that perform at very high levels. In addition, my Winex limbs are engineered so that as reach full draw the amount of weight increase actually drops off to only about 2# per inch rather than four or five.
I doubted all this about ILF limbs until my wife wanted to take up hunting . She has a short draw and pulls about 45# max. I got her a DAS bow with high performance limbs because when they first came out the mfgr. would buy back the bow if we didn't like it. When it arrived I set it up for her and at my draw it was about 50#. I took one shot with the bow and it was shooting the arrow better than my 66# Groves. I ordered one for myself and have never looked back. I have been shooting 60# with the DAS and have found that it outshoots any other bow I own even though they tend to be 10# heavier in weight and all are hight end "regular" bows.
Another advantage of the ILF limb, whether you use a DAS connection or the standard ILF connection, is that there is a decided advantage to archers who have to shoot low poundage and/or short draw length. The preload on these bows can be set such that you can get superior performance at the lower weight and draw......very similar to bows that are shooting 28'+.
I have more to add but have to go.
I have to agree with Bill. Some of the best Recurve limbs in the world, bar none... I still not a fan of metal risers, its a personal thing. That is why I built a wood ILF riser and I doubt wheather you will ever see wood in the olmpics. Just another choice if you want wood. I have never shot a bad ILF limb. That is why we also offer other brand limbs that our own. We can offer a very custom ILF riser, and put real good shooting limbs on ranging $150 to a bunch... I doubt 90% could tell the difference in preformance. Most do need to be painted to hunt with, skins look good on them also.
Longbow limbs are another thing and are starting to catch on Dryad, Sky, Black swan all are starting to build ILF longbow limbs, and they all will fit on any ILF riser. For the past 2 hunting season all I have shot is ILF, recurve and longbow. And if I decide I don't like the bowyer :rolleyes: I just trade out limbs. Depending on your draw length and riser you can go from 52" to 68 or 70".
What makes the Winex limbs perform so well.
Whats the difference in Bobs carbon/foam and the Winex limbs.
If they are the best limbs in the world why wouldnt other bowyers build limbs that are just like the Winex.
Thanks.
Hey Bob im getting close to putting my order in.
I am loving my ILF recurve and i cant wait to try one of your ILF longbows.
Did you ever find me some broad band water snake skins. :banghead:
Joe , Not yet they are hard to come by.
Yea i know i have been looking for some for months.
Im going to stick with those copperhead skins i sent you, i like those skins as good as the others.
Another big vote for Bob's wood ILF risers.
I just bought this one last Tues.
16" Med Grip
Zebrawood/Black Phenolic
(http://i285.photobucket.com/albums/ll58/genecharb/Morrison16Zebra-Med542.jpg)
Going on it are TT Black Max CarbonWood limbs.
Just got back from the PO. Not yet. Next Monday probably.
Thanks for the help on the riser Bob. :thumbsup:
Very much looking forward to it.
Gene Charbonneau
Gene, I picked up a set of the Black Max Carbon woods. Did some speed tests, 50# @ 26" 450Gr. 9gpp. 185-185 fps. Smooth pull. VG limb $220.
I'm putting a set of skins on them, should be interesting.
Bob
I was thinking about some of your skins to dress up those all black limbs..lol
I may be in touch again sooner than you think. :archer:
Keep up the good work.
Gene
gene i'm GREEN with envy i was eyeballing that riser hoping for some money to shake loose . that is a beaut.
Steve :thumbsup:
Man you have got to get some copperhead skins to go with that riser, that thing is a beauty.
Joe
Your right!
I think the copperheads would be just the right look.
Bob,
Thanks for the update. Been busy here, too, but not makin money...just staying alive! :)
Spring works. Just don't wait too long lest something happen to THIS job and then I'll get goofy and think I can't afford the conversion! :eek: :rolleyes: :saywhat:
Keep me posted... and thanks!
i am not sure how to answer the question about the difference between the Morrison and the Winex. When I got my DAS I had limited choices as the trad community had not yet warmed up to the ILF concept and metal risers. I shot some Hoyt G3's on my original DAS but had alreads special ordered the Winex as recommended by Dave Soza. When they arrieved they hands down out shot the Hoyt's. So many new US bowyers are now making the ILF option that I could not possibly know the difference in the limbs....I just know that the Winex are the best I ever shot. I had Sid from Border make me a Warf on a Black Bear riser with his HEX 4 limbs, again, before Bob and others got the ILF thing going. Those HEX 4 limbs were outstanding shooters so when I decided to drop in weight i found that the Winex were no longer being made so I called Sid and we emailed a lot about his HEX 5 limbs. I wish I had a set of Bob's to compare but I just went with what I knew. I suspect that one of Bob's risers may be in my future as I still have my 60# winex limbs and they just might come down in weight if I put them on a longer riser. Time will tell.
The last couple posts bring another question to mind...
Are ILF bows TD's in the classic sense that you can take them apart, travel, assemble them when you arrive (w/o re-adjusting) and head out into the field?
Yep TD without movign a bolt or screw
Just snap apart.
Mike
ttt
QuoteOriginally posted by wingnut:
Yep TD without movign a bolt or screw
Just snap apart.
Mike
I'm liking the sound of this system more & more every post. Have 7MM Mag I don't shoot much in the safe, it might have to go bye-bye for an ILF bow. Thanks...
keep in mind that there is usually a shooting style difference between a ilf wooden riser and ilf metal riser. the ilf wooden risers are getting closer to metal ilf geometry.
for example Morrison's first riser (not sure about current risers) shot exactly like my wooden "instinctive" riser. same cant, same feel, same sight picture, so the fact that you were shooting ilf fixture was not really evident when shooting.
as the wooden riser become stiffer and cut more past center, you will have to understand more about riser geometry when you are ordering a riser. that is are you an instinctive shooter that want to cant your bow and shoot with split vison or poke and hope, or your a real "rod jenkins gapper and thus a serious aimer, or you a dead serious aimer as in string walker or sight shooter.
alas one riser does not exactly fit all styles as well as another one does. as the choices get more defined, you will have to be more involved with your bowyer, discussing your shooting style and the geometry you need.
the reason as of a few months ago wooden riser could not be cut as far past center as metal riser was they were not strong (or stiff) enough. stiffing as in carbon or glass has to be added to a wooden riser so it will not torque from the draw stress. the side window part of the riser may have to be thickened (micarta added, etc) to get a wooden riser to shoot the same style as a metal ilf riser.
rusty
rusty
All three of my Morrison ILF risers are cut past center Rusty. In fact I had to block out the 20 riser that I'm studying right now, it may have been set up for really fat arrows. But you can always turn one back into a longbow riser by padding the strike plate with leather until it is a cut to center again.
One of the big issues with these ILF risers is the Berger button. It is more difficult to drive tacks off the shelf but you can switch arrows at will without adjustments. The Berger button is very accurate and forgiving, I used to break arrows all the time shooting with a button.
artifaker1 - good points. there is choices regrading the buger button also. want to shoot off the shelf with a plunger or off an elavated rest? I personally think all the choices are wonderful. it has taken us 40 yrs to get to almost where trad archery was before the compound came along. trad archer in the States of the 80's, 90's and early 20's was such a narrow slice of what it was in the early 70's.
rusty
Yes, that is an interesting option, shooting off the shelf with a button. When I shot with a button it was with a magnetic rest on a bear takedown riser. Those metal min-14 risers would be set up for that, but they are much too short for me. I've been shooting the 20" a lot lately, no finger pinch there for sure. It is a little heavy though (texas ebony), but a good tournament riser.
Hey Trashwood,
I've got that same ugle target :) I just don't have a photo of all of my arrows bunched up like that :) Good shooting!
What riser or bow is that in the photo?
Thanks!
Kevin
Shooting off the shelf with a Berger Button; now that's intriguing. Talk about the best of both worlds. I just happen to have a top end button and riser insert in the tackle box...
Kevin - that riser is a Bernardini Mamba 19". with the barebow weight, a heavy riser. Not one you would want to carry into spike camp. Hunting turkey from a pop up blind it is like a naval gun platform. stable as the rock of gibraltar. it will let shoot as good as you can.
rusty
I just figured out that I can adjust the center shot on that 20" riser that I was talking about above. I took the padding off, and moved the sockets back to the center and now it's to the range to check it out. It had been shooting to the right, especially if your were just shooting another bow. That is what those new set screws do you see On Gene's new Zebrawood riser in this thread. One would want to be carefull with those though. You could get it all messed up and have to send it back to Bob.
Glad to see you got a riser Gene. And a nice one to.
Cool looking rig Trashwood! I'm going to Google Bernardini. Thanks!
Kevin
Here is a pick of my new Border HEX-5W the day I got it. I have made some changes to it since, but this was a quick set up so I could shoot it. This riser is also available in an identical ILF version. It is corbon reinforced and cut 0.32 past center. I think the DAS metal risers are cut 0.35 past. The button on mine is heigh enough to use with an elevated rest and low enough to build up the shelf to center up the arrow and button and shoot off the shelf. Like seen in the photo. I went back and forth between the ILF riser or this one when I ordered the bow. I do have one of Bob Morrison's ILF longbows and would love to try a set of the HEX-5H recurve limbs on it. I guess I could have if I had went ILF, but no biggy I'm more than happy with these two bows! This is something to take in to consideration when buying. The flexibility of the ILF system my be it's greatest selling point.
(http://www.angeloholsteins.com/images/Pictures/Hunting/border-023.jpg)
(http://www.angeloholsteins.com/images/Pictures/Hunting/border-032.jpg)
hey gene copperhead would look great and kudo horn tips on longbow limbws . rusty can we see the picture of your spigarilla? with the dryad long bow limbs that will make us think???
rusty i went and looked it up the revolution riser from spig???
here ya go. if you are "real" open minded what a longbow is......you will find this one shoots as good as any bow ya have picked up.
Spigarelli Revolution 23" barebow riser and Dryad's ILF longbow limbs.
(http://i706.photobucket.com/albums/ww66/rustycraine/ILF2-1.jpg)
the rig will put them on spot :)
rusty
Wild thing! would be a good name for that one!
thanks that is the one
Trashwood... whoooooaaaaaaa :)