I am working up a new arrow. I have a range of weights and FOC to consider. The arrow needs to have a reasonable trajectory out to 25 yd. So what is your pick for bet performace on medium size game? Do you like weight or FOC if you have to choose one factor as primary?
Personally, I would go with the FOC. I did a lot of experimenting with carbons and the best solution for me was the FOC. However, the caveat is that you should do whatever gives you the best arrow flight. Personally I bare shaft my shafts before i commit to a particular point weight, etc. A perfectly flying arrow trumps anything you do to add weight.
I use weight with reasonable FOC. Out of my 53#@28" I shoot 540gr with a 17% FOC. IMHO the best of both worlds.
In your situation I would go with average weight, not too heavy or too light. However I would produce the weight up front creating 25%+ EFOC.
Can't go wrong listening to Bill Carlson!! :thumbsup:
Like Bill said. Perfect arrow flight is by far the most important factor in performance.
Depends on what your hunting. FOC is more important in my view since it increases penetration at any weight, and helps with arrow tuning and good flight. If your only worried about trajectory out to 25 yards, I would crank the weight up above 650 grains personally. Not a whole lot of difference at that short of a range. Once you get out past 30 yards you really start to see trajectory issues with heavier arrows.
If you're talking about a carbon arrow, the two go hand in hand. The shaft is very light, thus to increase weight any substantial amount, you'll need to increase point weight fairly substantially, which will also increase the FOC. (Filler tubes/lines don't add a heck of a lot of weight.) For a given overall arrow weight, the options won't be that different, but to the extent they are, I would opt for the one that yields the greatest FOC.
In running a 400 spine arrow now, but it is in the 8.25 gpp range and on the light side for FOC in my heavier bows. It shoots great for targets. I also shoot the same arrow in my light bow with more point weight. In that bow I get a better gpp and foc for hunting and all around shooting. The arrows I have will end up for the light bow, and I will build these new arrows for the heavier bows.
I have 6 CE350's on hand. I am trying to decide if I want to make them up or not. On a CE 350 I will have over 600 gr. weight, but light on FOC.
I have two other options. One is a 300 spine generic carbon. It would lose some weight from the CE, but get more FOC. The other option is a generic carbon of 340 spine. It would be lighter in weight than the others, but more FOC than the CE.
I have the figures at home. I will post them later for more input. I just wanted to see what the feeling is in general about weight vs. foc.
I think I would try to determine first,exactly what overall weight gives me the trajectory I want.Then go from there.I have been shooting 13-14 gr per # arrows and out to 20 yds I don't have to think about trajectory but at 25,I do.
I have to admit,I'm not very good at hitting that overall weight I am looking for.The bow ends up steering me to what it likes.Often,that ends up very different than what I thought it would be.
Got to agree with Bill Carlson. Soot whatever has the best arrow flight & you won't be disappointed.
It depends on how much you enjoy tinkering. Just decide about what you want to achieve and then mix and match until you get there. I personally like FOC above 25% and arrows in the area of 11 - 12 grains per pound of draw. So I just try different combinations until I get there. I like my arrow speed to be 150 - 155 fps and with that I am good out to 25 yards. I'll shoot beyond that stumping or ground squirrels just for practice. I've arrowed ground squirrels out to 33 long paces with that type of setup so I don't feel too handicapped with the heavier arrows.
I hunt with 65# bow so i don't have many problems, having a 650-700 grs arrow with18-20% Foc, i get speed penetration and trajectory up to 35-40 yrs.If I'll plain to hunt Cape buffalo I'll change set up.
I have toggled back and forth between a carbon arrow at 10gr/lb draw weight with FOC 18% or so to now going with a heavy 2219 (11.5 gr/# dw) with my FOC being lower to get a heavy elk arrow. I am shooting a 62# at 30in recurve. I had NO problems with penetration in the 4 deer I killed this year with the carbons but I wanted a heavy arrow for elk. I hope to report back with an elk on the ground in Sept to give you my opinion :)
imo, it's just logical thinking.
first and foremost, tune best arrow flight ...
... second, arrow gpp weight (retune for best arrow flight) ...
... third, arrow foc (retune for best arrow flight).
better yet, combine gpp and foc/efoc and have it all - as long as the arrow flies straight and true at your hunt shooting distances.
QuoteOriginally posted by xtrema312:
I am working up a new arrow. I have a range of weights and FOC to consider. The arrow needs to have a reasonable trajectory out to 25 yd. So what is your pick for bet performace on medium size game? Do you like weight or FOC if you have to choose one factor as primary?
If I
had to choose one I'd say weight. I try to get my arrows around 9 gpp and tune them accordingly. I've never once set up arrows with FOC in mind.
Not sure if you mean lighter weight for flatter trajectory or heavier weight for better penetration. I would assume the latter, and if that is the case you can have both with the choice of the right arrow.
Just out of curiosity, what are your heavier bows and draw length? You mention 300 spine arrows, and with the bows that are listed at the bottom of your posts, I'm not sure that you could put enough weight in the front to get them to be tuned to your bow. If you did, you should have more than enough FOC, JMHO.
I am looking at heavier weight of more FOC for better penetration.
I draw longer than the listed bows. I would like these arrows to run about 31" if possible. My current light bow is shooting about 185 fps with a 31" arrow at 9+ gpp. Ideally I would like to see the same arrow length out font and have close to the same speed so I shoot everything about the same. I like 125 gr. Phantom heads, but have 100 and 150 BH's I can use. I have to chronograph a couple arrows in my bows to dial in better on the expected speed. I like low $ shafts, but have the CE's on hand. I also like the wood look. I am still weighing out all the options and priorities. So I just wanted to throw in weight vs. FOC to see which one gains the most penetration. This is just a start. Here are some estimates on arrows.
CE 350 31",100 gr. insert +125 gr. point, 11 gpp, 612 gr. 17% FOC, 172 fps.
Beman Bow Hunter 340 30 1/2", 100+125, 545 gr., 9.8 gpp, 19% FOC, 181 fps.
GT trad 7595/300 31 1/4", 100+145, 601 gr., 10.9 gpp, and 19% FOC, 176 fps.
Beman Bow Hunter 340 31" 50+145, 523gr., 9.0 gpp, and 17% FOC, 185 fps.
Beman Bow Hunter 340 31 1/4", 100+100, 528 gr., 9.1 gpp, 17.4% FOC, 188 fps.
xtrema,
Dr. Ashby's research suggests that a real increase in penetration is not noticed until you reach 19% FOC. Then the penetration increases with every percent of FOC over 19.
So...you should probably be thinking about the heavier arrow and not the FOC when the FOC is
19%ish or under. If you get the FOC in the 20's then go with the highest you can get. And going with the higher FOC option does NOT mean you would negate the weight, which is a win win.
Of course all of this doesn't help much without the arrow flying properly...and that CAN be done with a super high Ultra EFOC, heavy arrow, just like with any other arrow.
Agree with Richie. Have you bareshafted any of your setups? Everyone has a different bow, release, etc..., but I feel that I have a someone rough release and I shoot 300 spined axis arrows that are 30 3/4" long with 300 grains ups front out of an RER recurve that is cut 3/16 past center, drawing a little over 63# at a little over 29". They fly like darts. You know yor setp better than me, but it looks like you are pulling around 55# on a longbow that isn't cut as far past center. I would think that you can get away with a little more weight up front. Good luck
for me, hunting broadhead arrows have features that work like this ...
1. a small diameter, durable carbon arrow that's tuned to fly very well (out of one specific stick bow).
2. a very sharp c-o-c broadhead that's close to 3:1 blade(s) ratio.
3a. an arrow with enuf mass gpp so that it stores energy well and as quiet.
3b. along with the gpp, design the arrow's build so that the maximum amount of the mass weight is directed at the shaft's business end - i find this helps arrow flight and reduces the emphasis on shaft spine.
i like doc ashby's credo of a 'penetration-maximized' hunting arrow.
Thanks for that info Richie. That was kind of what I was looking to find out. It sounds looks like 525-600 gr. weight and FOC of 17-19 is all about the same for the intended use.
I am considering looking at some more FOC if possible. I may cut down 1/2" and foot some 400 shafts to stiffen them, and then I will add more point weight. That could be a good way to go, but I kind of want to keep all arrows as close as possible to the same length and I don't know that I want to foot hunting arrows unless I go internal.
I have a good nunmber of heads 150 and under so unless I need to shoot something a lot bigger than deer I think I will keep with them and the 100 brass inserts for now. That kind of limits me from just cutting down heavier spine shafts and loading more.
I have not tested these arrow designs. That is next after I settle on a direction. These numbers are based on Stu's calculator using base line known dynamic spines for these bows. They do appears stiff, but I have run the point weights way up and tuned back down. My base line dynamic spine is a couple # more than Stu's calculator says. All my bows are cut to or a little past center with thin side plates. They all shoot as hard or harder than the recurves I have had. They all are quiet bows with 8 strand strings and minimal silencers. These numbers in other arrows produce very straight flying bare shafts at long distance and into the group. I shoot bullet holes in paper with them, and my arrow flight looks flawless. 25 gr. more point weight and I am for sure getting weak bare shaft flight. I will probably go a hair lighter on spine than this and work with BH's to fine tune, but these should be in the ball park at least for general planning.
QuoteOriginally posted by xtrema312:
...
I am considering looking at some more FOC if possible. I may cut down 1/2" and foot some 400 shafts to stiffen them, and then I will add more point weight. That could be a good way to go, but I kind of want to keep all arrows as close as possible to the same length and I don't know that I want to foot hunting arrows unless I go internal.
...
don't cut down - foot and/or add weight as is first.
Great information guys and for someone thats new to trad archery this has helped me out a lot.
I had to add this link to this discussion.
http://www.alaskabowhunting.com/Three-Darts-W13.aspx
Tommy
I shoot relatively light bows with long 32" (BOP) aluminum arrows. I have two 66" Blacktail TD recurve bows: 37# @ 30" and 42# @ 30". Both bows are have Dyna97 bowstrings and are cut 3/16" past center. They both shoot a variety of differently spined arrows with different point weights, but I finally settled on these two for both flat trajectory and penetration.
For the 37# @ 30": Easton 32", Eclipse 2212X7, 180 grain tip weight, 524 grain, 14.16 gpp, 17.1 FOC, 156 fps.
For the 42# @ 30": Easton 32", Camo Hunter 2213 XX75, 180 grain tip weight, 555 grain, 13.21 gpp, 16.2 FOC, 161 fps.
I'm going out later today to test a new arrow for my longbow.
QuoteOriginally posted by tawmio:
I had to add this link to this discussion.
http://www.alaskabowhunting.com/Three-Darts-W13.aspx
Tommy
I did a lot of dart throwing in the old days. That sure makes a lot of sense to me to a point. Now if only I could launch an arrow from the front of the shaft and not the back. I could put 400 gr. up front of a 600 spine shaft 31" long. That would be great.
Agree with most of what's been said already: weight, FOC and excellent arrow flight is the desired combination. I am kind of cheap so I still look at 125 grain cut on contact broadheads that are purchased 6 to a pack for 25 bucks or so. These work great as long as they fly correctly. So, my field points are also 125 grain. Before cutting carbon arrows at all, I place the weight onto the front considering I want at least 10 gpp overall weight (I actually have over 11 now). For instance I have 125 gr point, 75 grain adapter, and 50 grain brass insert on a 35/55 gold tip traditional. Total arrow weight is 509.85 grains. Shooting 45 lb at 28 inches, so gpp is 11.33. This was achieved by cutting down gradually the bare shaft to get perfect bare shaft flight. Left an arrow 29.25 inches back of point, and balance point at 7.5 inches when fletched with 3 4 inch shield feathers. Using Rob's excel file calculator for ease gives me 24.36 FOC. That is a great setup for a 45 lb recurve I believe. If my broadheads are razor sharp (they are) it will shoot through anything I meet in the SC woods including most hogs.