Trad Gang

How come 3Rivers don't have a booth at the KZoo show????
Terry

They normally have one

I did not see them on the list, I'll look again.

I didnt see them on this year ether...

They generally just hand out catalogs, and show some new products. They have way to much stuff to haul around.
Jim

I don't think they have had a booth for a couple of years.  Kustom King is usually there.

Dave

They supply a lot of the smaller dealers and don't want to compete against them is my guess.

They said it was not profitable enough for them.

Eric

they haven't been to cloverdale in years or any other shoot that I know of. It's my opinon that they think they're to big to attend and support the shoots. Things have changed with that buisness especially since Todd left. My opinon is if you're to big and impersonal to support the shoots and expos, them why would you expect me to buy from and support you? jmho

They were at Compton shoot in 05, have not been back to know if they have been there sence. I think I will be back there this year(Compton)

I'll throw in my two cents here for what it is worth.  The main reason 3Rivers stopped doing Kalamazoo was the state of Michigan.  Had little to do with profitability and nothing to do with "we're getting to big".  I can guarantee you that was never in the equation.   Even as 3Rivers grew it got harder and harder to bring the right or right amount of stuff to the shows but kept them up to meet and share with shooters, shake hands, put faces with names of customers and most of all they are pretty fun events to attend.   But because of them doing business in Michigan at the Kalamazoo Expo they had to begin collecting sales tax from ALL Michigan residents on ALL sales, not just those at the show.  This upset many customers and a huge hassle too.  

3Rivers still suports shoots, clubs and state archery organizations with donations when they can't support them with their presence.  They did set up a booth at IBO Pennslyvania shoot this past year too and there maybe a few other ones this year too.

I got the same info as Dino has brought up.  Dale and Sandy are big donors and we should all be thanking them for all they do for all the shoots, expos, and especially the Compton Rendezvous.  I have NEVER got the impression they think they are "too big" to support us here in Michigan.  It is almost like we are a commmunist state here.  I am glad Kustom King still brings a truckload of stuff though!

Before this gets all crazy, I do like Dale and all at 3-rivers. I still order and all, it's more of a disappointment than anything else with me. I don't care if they sell a bunch of stuff or not. There are always vendors that someone can buy from. It's just nice to shake hands, tell stories and such. I also know Dale is on the board of Comptons and is super busy, but the boys aren't. Like I said it's more of a disappointment than anything else

While I certainly don't speak for 3 Rivers, please consider my experience.

As someone who owned a fly fishing shop in Michigan and also hit many of the big midwest "fly shows", I can completely understand the reasons for attending or not attending certain shows for any given year. Or even skipping certain shows for good.

First off, bow shops, fly shops and even online retailers are businesses first. If a certain event, no matter the good PR of handshakes and the like, is a big loser accounting wise, a responsible business owner must take that into account. While maybe unpopular, losing money instead of making money is a poor business model.

Also, the set up and takedown for a show, especially if you know you're going to lose money, becomes something you don't want to do, especially if you know you can make more money by not going.

Don't take this the wrong way, but many sportsmen/flyfishermen/hunters are very passionate about their sport. What they often fail to realize is, those in "the industry" of supplying the goods we love and require, if they are to be successful long term, they must also understand that the bottom line comes first. Cold, but true.

Going to shows that cost money instead of make can be done occasionally, but keep doing it and you won't be in business long.

I'm not sure what everyone here does for a living, but be it a truckdriver, plumber or a banker, doing business that loses money, no matter how much you'd really love to do it in your heart, is just bad business.

I hope everyone takes this into full consideration.

Again, I certainly can't speak for 3 Rivers, but I hope everyone keeps in mind that, even though those with booths at any show love hunting as much as you, they have the bigger concern of paying the bills within their passion.

No matter your business, you have to be smart and keep the bottom line in the black, instead of the red.

My guess is, if any business made enough money at any given show, they'd do it. If you lose money, even though you'd love to have a booth and shake hands, it just is a terrible business decision.

Unless you've owned a business that's also your hobby/passion, you may never understand what I'm trying to convey.

I think you may be right on this one mojo, although it was nice to see them all there at compton I can see why they cant make it to every show. But then again they are not to far from kalamazoo. Like most have said, I myself will still order from them and hope they can make it to more shows, but understand if they cant. Kostom King also offers some great stuff that maybe they cant, but you will see that from any place I think, what one does not have another will.

We are stopping at 3 Rivers Saturday morning before heading to Kalamazoo. It's not too far out of the way and you can roam the warehouse on Saturdays.

Some items we just can't get at the show.

Mojo,

I full well understand what your saying and it's true to a point. Any buisness also has to market itsself to be successfull. Attending shoots, conventions ect are very important to the marketing aspects of the buisness, plus much of that expense can and is tax write offs

3 Rivers sent me a whole package of items to be raffled for our michigan bunny stomp last year..3 rivers covered the shipping and cost of the product...They supported a hunt as small as 50 folks.... I'm sure they have very good  reasons for not being at kzoo.

Cloverdale is in Indiana,  no state sale tax thing to worry about there?

NO  State Sales Tax in Indiana??  :confused:   Try  7%  as of Today, it may go  UP  again since the Day is Young!!
    IMHO , Too Big Too Fast!! Be Distributors and Call It A Day!! Kustom King, Lost Nation... MY  Shops of Choice. The Folks that Buy Some Things from 3-R, so they Get Their Money anyway.  :archer:

Someone at 3Rivers, and it may have been Dale, told me the reason they don't attend anymore was because it turned into an inventory nightmare. It made sense to me at the time since a lot of the business is Internet driven. Anyone can look up a bow or anything else and see if it is available.

It struck home a little harder a year ago last summer. I was going to buy a new SS Tomahawk and I looked it up. Yes, they had it in stock, so I drove over a spent an hour or better trying out that bow. Sweet!  Finally, I dug my credit card out to buy the bow. Nope, while I was there shooting it, someone else bought it online. I went home a little disappointed and with a different bow.

I don't think I'd beat up on 3Rivers just because they are not gonna be at KZoo. The sales tax thing is a good reason alone, but regardless, I have always had nothing less than great customer service from them. ORders arrive quick, questions are always answered by knowlegeable and polite employees, and the quality of merchandise is good. If I had one thing I cringe at is shipping/handling costs, but that is no different than most any other mail order enterprise. You just have to make an order big enough to make it worthwhile.

I also use KustomKing and Lost Naation. All are good follks to work with, and worthy of our business.

WOW!!! Pretty hard on 3rivers here folks. They have provided great customer service over the years and when they dont attend a couple events there considered anti-social. Well I'm here to tell you, anti-social they are not/. How many BIG companys like 3rivers do you get to talk to the CEO on a normal call? How many big companys CEO's will send you an email just by asking a general question on a forum web page(Trad Gang to be specific)? They do all of this. Got to meet Dale, Sandy and the gang at Comptons two years ago and they were, well, normal people. Down to earth, friendly, and having a good time. Even big CEO's like to go to events and not work. They do supply alot of smaller vendors with products and IMO, they probably don't want to compete with these folks.(Once again, my opinion). Lets cut them some slack here folks.

Heck with the economy the way it's been, especially in Michigan, I'm surprised anyone will be at K'zoo.  I did some number crunching on shows and it costs us an average of $2k to attend a show including expenses.  Now we start that much in the hole by being there.

Last year after K'zoo I read thread after thread on here about how people go there but don't buy anything and brag about it.

As a result, we won't be there either and will be evaluating every show we go to in the future.

If the customers don't come to the shows and the ones that do, don't spend any money.  Why would a business spend $2k to be there?

Mike

Mike makes good points. If people dont support the shows financially, sponsers have no incentives to be there. One quality of many traditional shooters is the ability to be self sufficient. Example, not long ago, a product was posted that was being carried by an archery shop. Some of the first inquiries was "Has any one tried to make these yet and could you post how to do it?"...Not slamming anyone but if we fail to support the shops, don't cry when there are fewer shops and shows available.

Three Rivers hasn't done any Shows in Several Years!! They Whole sale to Alot of the smaller Trad Shops, so they don't feel it is Right to then Go to shows & Compete with those same shops.
 This is what Dale told me about 3-4 yrs ago when they stopped doing shows.
I Give 3 Rivers & Dale alot of respect for makeing that decision!!!

Mike Treadway used to go to Clover dale every year but not any more. He once told me he had to sell at least two bow at the show just to break even, so yes it it isn't cheap for a vendor to go.

I talked to Dale at Compton year before last and he said that it was just to hard to keep catalog sales and show stuff seperate and keep track of inventory. I made perfect sense to me. Plus he could get away and enjoy the shows and or shoots like the other visitors.That made sense also. I have had good service from Three Rivers and will keep them on my list of suppliers.

As far as inventory and products on hand. You can find anything that three rivers carries and more at the Kalamazoo show.

Mike(Wingnut) is right!

I agree with mojo,3Rivers has to do whats best for their company.

I buy my stuff from Kustom King anyway....

I had no intention of this turning into a bashing of 3Rivers I just wondered why they dont attend. My 1st Kzoo show they were there and that was where I spent most of my money. I have visted the store on one Saturday and was very pleased with the help from the staff, very helpful and nice. I will make the drive there again someday soon as I like to put my hands on stuff before I buy it if I dont have any experience with a certin product, thats just the way I am.
3Rivers ROCKS>>>

Wingnut, many still attend and spend money...I've gone every year I could as always come home with an empty wallet.

Being less than 1.5 hour away and not having at least a presence for some "face time" sends a bad image to some I think.

I'm not sure many still understand how expensive "face time" can be.

Using my experience from the fly fishing shows, by the time you add up booth costs, renting a truck to take everything to and from, lodging, the expense of meals for staff and likely overtime wages, you'd have to sell roughly $4000-5000, at least, just to "break even".

But in retail or even wholesale, you don't "break even" by selling $4000-$5000. When you get back from the show, you have to sell more like $20,000 to make up the expense of that $5000.

That's why shoplifting hurts retailers so badly. In a fishing store, if someone steals a Rapala, for example, you don't make it up by just selling another Rapala. You need to sell more like 3-5 Rapala's just to pay for the missing one. And then, you're only back to even. So now you're out 5-6 Rapala's that you had to pay for and have made nothing in profit on any of them, but still have to pay overhead, utilities, insurance, wages, taxes, etc.

I'm not saying "face time" isn't a good thing, it is. That's the only reason we did the shows. But even then, we had to cut our shows back to doing only the largest one in Michigan, which was commonly known as "the Southfield fly show" show, even though venue's changed.

In light of other advertising, "face time" is often incredibly expensive. Is it worth it? Well, when you sit down with your accountant and look at the numbers year in and out, many times the sad reality is that you're harming your business far more than helping it by buying booth time, regardless of the good PR of "face time".
The banks and the IRS don't much care about "face time" unless you have cash in the checkbook to pay them on time.

I guess it's tough to understand unless you've been there. But one has to sell way more than a couple grand just to make up the costs of the show. That's just how it works.

If anything, this should be a huge reminder to support the shows not just by buying a ticket and "kicking tires", but to purchase many items at the shows and thus give more reason for businesses to buy booth time.

My .02, even though it may remain unpopular.

QuoteOriginally posted by Mojostick:
I'm not sure many still understand how expensive "face time" can be.

$6.00 to get in the door, and a tank of gas...you don't have to have a booth just to BE there. Many others do it, just to mingle and meet archers from all over.

I can tell everyone from my personal experence with Dale and Sandie that no one out there is more concerned with the traditional archery community then the Karch's. Dale shakes hand and talks with folks every chance he gets and 3Rivers supports clubs and events all year.
If you are deciding that someone is too arrogant based on the fact that they don't come too the show you frequent you are pretty narrow minded.

As already said,  every business has to do what is in their best interest.  Most companies have a marketing/PR budget,  but the marketing and PR still has to be cost effective - meaning it ultimately translates into additional sales/orders, and enough of them to cover the costs plus some profit - either at the show or down the road. It is easy to tally up what was spent and how much was sold for a particular show and then judge it a success or failure,  much harder to tell whether it was worthwhile  weeks or months later. It can be measured, but not everyone has professional marketing staffs.
3rivers has obviously figured out their dollars are best spent putting out high quality catalogs and maintaining a well run web site/online ordering system.

If one recalls, a giant in trad archery also left Michigan years back for one reason only, that being the bottom line. Business is business is business.

I assume nobody here would impugn the reputation of that dedicated archer and businessman to the world of traditional archery.

From the Detroit News Nov. 20, 1977...

GRAYLING - The verdict came in at 7 a.m. Monday. Bear Archery Company, Crawford County's largest private employer, is moving its plant to Gainesville, Fla. The relocation decision, announced after 12 months of study, ended months of waiting and speculation and reaffirmed the worst fears of Crawford County economy watchers.

The loss of the archery company will be a serious blow to a community which has, for 30 years, been known as the archery capitol of the world. The plant presently provides approximately 342 jobs, expends a $4.5 million annual payroll and attracts more than 150,000 visitors a year via its museum.

The reason for leaving Grayling, according to Kelly, remains economic. "We're looking at the bottom line," he said. "We're paying an average $7 an hour, counting fringe benefits. Our nearest competitor pays $4. It's as simple as that. There's Ben Pearson in Arkansas, Jennings Archery in California, Precision Shooting Equipment in Illinois and Arizona. Every year the gap between what they pay their employees and what we have to pay ours gets wider. Overall wage rates in Michigan put us in a very noncompetitive position in our field. We have to hire labor in a market where the auto industry sets the pattern. We can't pay auto industry rates and sell bows and arrows."


Again, please don't confuse a love or dedication to trad archery with the business of trad archery. I for one want 3 Rivers to thrive and grow as a trad archery business. If it's only catalog's and online, mixed with a few select shows, so be it.

I'm not sure if everyone grasps how extremely difficult it is to turn their passion for hunting or fishing into a livelyhood, let alone a successful business known literally across the nation in the selected field of interest.

For this reason alone, when anyone ever said that it was "their dream to open a sporting goods store", I always did everything I could to dispel the illusion that owning a hunting or fishing store should be "a dream". To the contrary. Business is business, no matter what you do. And tough choices need to be made. First being, when the prime seasons come around, you likely won't be hunting or fishing, you'll be working. That's when you make your money. The off season is your vacation time.

I once was a very avid trout fisherman. But after years in the store and working everyday during steelhead, salmon and the prime trout hatch days, the reality is that my love of the sport was drained from me. Business is business, no matter what you do.
Be careful what you ask for.


I think it's best to leave this thread to Lonesome Wind's words of wisdom. It's a mistake to question 3 River's dedication to trad archery and/or trad archers.

MOJO has it pretty well covered.  You cannot continually do a show where you "break even" just to apease a few individuals.  The "BIG" picture comes into effect.  There are 1000's of shows every year...if you dan't make $....YOU QUIT GOING.

LET ALL CALL THREE RIVERS IN THE MORNING SEE IF THEY'RE A COMING. WOW THERE'S A NEW IDEA.   :eek:    

Having been in buis for several years, non archery related buis, I can say without a doubt if I spend a grand on advertising (example going to a shoots, or whatever) I'll get a grand of buis. So after awhile you realize that it's cheaper to stay home and not make money than travel all over gods creation packing merch and not making money or breaking even! Bottom line. period. Your in buis to make money! The ol saying word of mouth is the best advertising is the truth so they are well ahead to just donate some gear rather than show up with gear!

Dale has always been nice to me and taken the time to talk and provide personal service.  I imagine they are so busy these shoots take too much time away.  A shoot like ETAR and Cloverdale takes a week away from the main event. Finding folks that can keep the ship off the shoals while the CPT is away can be damn tough. I for one prefer they stay at the shop and get me my orders in a day or three, which they consistantly do. I also hear if you travel to some states you have to pay sales taxes in  those states on everything.  That is a bridge too far.