As I am interested in shooting wooden arrows from heavy bows, I have experimented with front-loading. However, even with the stiffest Douglas fir, I am really at the limits with a mere 160 grains up-front. I shoot 83# @ 29" of Silvertip. The arrows I use weigh between 700 and 775 grains.
One of my favourite books is "Archer in Africa" by Bill Negley, who killed five elephants for certain (an additional mortally-stricken beast ran into a raging, flooded river, never to be seen again, and poor trackers lost the trail of another one) with Bear recurves. Here's a quote from it that got me wondering:
"I promptly tested the one-hundred-and-two-pounder and found it even more exciting than the ninety-pounder had been. One hundred pounds had a reassuring ring to it, and this one carried two extra pounds for good measure. This was like going through the sound barrier. All the articles by the archery editors and assorted sages that I had studied seemed to hint that new worlds began at one hundred pounds... This beautiful thing had a fresh, clean leather wrapping on the perfectly-formed grip, and on the broad surface just above the grip, in black india ink, an electric message: "To Bill Negley - Made especially to kill an elephant - Fred Bear." At this moment, the whole prospect seemed so much more reasonable than at any moment up to now... The arrows I had been using for months were a special development of Eastman, the leading manufacturer in the field. Eastman, employing heat and pressure, impregnated cedar shafts with a resin that gave them extra stiffness, toughness and weight. My arrows weighed over a thousand grains and were chronographed at over two hundred feet per second."
So, does anybody know how to do this to wooden shafts? Could this be done in the same way that dymondwood is made?
Penny for your thoughts,
Ben
I have no clue, but I really really want to read that book!
Killdeer :scared:
Ben,
Dymondwood would be very close I would think, if you know any Custom knife makers they often send pieces of wood to be "stabilized" which is from what I know(which aint much) about the same as Dymondwood a process which under great pressure impregnates the wood with a resin.
I would think it easier to have the shafts stabilized than try and work the Dymondwood?
Pat
It probably could be. Bet you wouldn't want to pay for a couple dozen though. Better off looking into maple, hickory, birch arrows etc. I hear 3/8" maple shafts are brutally heavy and stiff too.
Look at the hardwood shafting on the market. Plenty available and lots of it is really heavy.
Ben, I have a strong suspicion that a lot of the old timers arrows came from mature trees unlike what we get these days.It seems like alot of old bear arrows that I have are lighter in mass weight but stiffer in spine than a lot of the new stuff I get my hands on.I dont know about resin but I remember an article in TBH where the author submerged his arrows in oil to get the weight up but I dont think it did much for spine.
Over 1000 grains at better than 200FPS... Gawd! :eek:
I remember reading this as well. I am intrigued as I have never heard anything about Eastman Archery. Does anyone have any of these arrows?
Lucas
Ben,
What spine shafts are you shooting in the douglas fir?
I've got some 85-90 and 95-100 that I'm building for my 80# Monarch Imperial. Planned on going 250 to 300 up front with the 95-100 will let you know how they work.
Also have a 90# recurve I was going to try them with. Will give you results after testing.
Were these not the same arrows that Tink Nathan used in Africa? If I am not wrong, I think they were Eastman Game getters with a wooden shaft drove un inside the entire length?
I don't know if this will help. I brought this video "A history of the Compressed Cedar Arrow" with Bill Sweetland. Bill invented a way to shrink and add weight to cedar arrows and this video tells his story. This video was made by Archery Past 61562 East Lake Dr., Bend, Oregon 97702. Hope this is what you are looking for. Mike in Ohio
Sweetlands were stabilized with formaldehyde which is tightly controlled now. Barrel smooth bark hickory shafts would be my choice to get this spine and weight.
Thanks, fellows; a lot to consider in your answers.
Harold, I use 30" 105/110# Douglas fir shafts, with 160 grains up-front. I also built-out my strike plate with a thicker piece of leather. This set-up works well, but they're just a whisker weak at close range before the feathers sort them out.
Mike, I'll look into that film, as it sounds interesting.
Shaun, where would you get these shafts from?
The way we got the highest spines in the Superceder shafts was by making the diameter larger than normal then barrel tapering. We were able to make shafts from yellow poplar that way that spined 120# and more that were 25/64 in the center section and 11/32 on each end. Weights topped out in the 500-600 grain range for the raw shafts, but poplar is relatively light. With a heavier species like birch, maple, or hickory you could make really heavy, really strong shafts this way.
I visited Bill Sweetland in the '80's to learn his methods, and had a great time with him. He used heat and high pressure to compress POC boards, then used a lathe to mill the shafts. His boards were tapered, which gave him a parallel shaft that was heavier on the point end. I did some experimenting with similar methods using yellow poplar treated with stabilizing chemicals and made some really heavy shafts, with arrows weighing in the 900 grain range, but the process was too expensive to commercialize. That's why we used barrel tapering instead in the Superceder business.
I am very familiar with Sweetland's process and shafts, but the book is specific and says the shafts were made by Eastman, whom until this quote I had never heard of... again are there any of these out there? Which Eastman was Mr Negley talking about? Where and how were these shafts made, thats what I would like to know...
Lucas
BK: How about trying purpleheart? I have a couple I would spare for you, want me to hand deliver?! Camels beware!
Was Negley talking about the same Eastman (sic) who manufactured and popularized aluminum arrows in this country? Maybe the arrow(s) Negley used were aluminums filled with a wooden shaft, as someone already suggested. Thought I read somewhere that Negley used fiberglass shafts to kill at least one elephant.
The process he describes in your quote sure sounds like the Sweetland process, though. It's possible the names got mixed up/substituted in publication. In fact, the more I think about it, the more I think that is what happened. Eastman (Easton) was a big name in the arrow/archery industry at the time. So was Sweetland. They sound rather similar don't they. Not at all unusual to inadvertently switch the names, and an editor likely wouldn't know the difference.
I picked up some Sweetland forgewoods a while back that would almost fit the bill. The raw shafts are 31 inches long, 11/32 with a 9-inch taper to 5/16. The raw shafts weigh right around 740 grains. Adding finish, feathers and a nock would bring them close to 800 grains. Add a 160-200 grain point and they would be around 1,000 grains. Of course, if they weren't tapered, they would weigh another 50 grains or so more. Spine is well over 100#. I don't know how much over, but it's way off my scale, which stops at 100#.
I plan to redowel them to 5/16 full length, maybe tapering to 9/32, or, depending on their weight and spine at those dimensions, maybe taking them to 9/32 full length. I'm thinking they'll still be in the 80# range and probably weigh 550-600 grains bare shaft, which fits my equipment better.
Eastman might be Easton Alu. (Doug Easton). Bill Sweetlands shaft making equipment was up for sale last year. I think the equipment was moved to Alaska and then put up for sale. There was a picture in TG of the 102 lb but it is no longer on Photobucket. You might try a Goo*** search. I thought he used a double shelve bow. It would have taken a much lighter spine than a new center shot. Another reference was made to a 1958 Kodiak.
There's a thread on Negley in the Collector's forum that has a lot more information on the BOWS Negley used to take his elephants. Jack Harrison and two other Alaskans bought Sweetland's equipment and moved it to Alaska several years back. Unfortunately, their endeavor did not last long. It's my understanding that they made some pretty good compressed shafts out of an Alaskan tree species, some kind of spruce, I think. The business/equipment has been for sale for a couple of years.
Do you mean Easton? could be I guess, the arrows in the Buckhorn Saloon in San Antonio are metal but I believe these were used on later hunts
Lucas
Yes, Lucas, I meant Easton. I edited my post above to reflect the change. The quote uses the term Eastman though. I think it was an editorial mix-up, or maybe Ben mistyped it. Easy to do.
Nope, Bill definitely wrote Eastman.
It is Eastman in "Archer in Africa" (pg 33) but like you said it could be an editorial mistake
Lucas
I believe the head of Eastman Outdoors out of Michigan is/was a traditional bowhunter. It doesn't seem like he is/was old enough to have been in the business when Negely needed these arrows.
Clint his name is Robert Eastman and he has also taken the big five with a recurve (he has the distinction of being the first modern bowhunter to take a Bongo too) but I think he started into archery after the 1957 elephant hunt.
The tree in Alaska was Western Hemlock, not a spruce.
heres the alaska forgewoods link...
http://www.alaskafrontierarchery.com/index.html
I also remember hearing Bill Sweetland in his video talk about Negley shooting elephants with his arrows.
Steve you're going to australia now?!?! Wow am I left out of the loop or what jeesh.
Thanks for that link, Dan. An interesting site. You or Steve could buy it, and start production again!
not on my paycheck...sounds like Steve might be your man here..maaaaaybe he'll hire me haha, he might even come with a good dental plan haha. But you aint getting me to move to nikiski! to heck with them apples!!!
Mate , have a look at osage or ipe shafting ... pretty sure you can get the spine and most likely the weight.
deadly on rabbits .....
ben
Hey Ben, Unless you want to go for the old time retro arrow, you should be able to get what you want in any number of hardwoods. I know a couple of shaft makers that I will see at the Kzoo expo in a couple of weeks. Let me know what you might want(spine/weight/size) and I will check it out for you. I could pick some up and send them out if you want. I am not sure about the shipping to OZ but you may know better than me.
I would love to hand deliver them also, maybe next time.
PM me if you want.
Chuck
Didn't Howard Hill taper a shaft from 3/8 to 11/32 for bows that were over 100# to get a really stiff shaft?
I remember reading something he wrote about a full length taper. I believe it was in one of his older soft back books. Well I think someone else wrote it, he wrote some articles IN it. Headed to work for the nite, I'll try and flip through it tomorrow morning and see if I cant find it.
Ben,
I came across an article that may be of interest to you. It was by Dennis Kamstra, and it was about his hunt for water buffalo. He used said he used resin-impregnated poplar arrows that weighed in at 1,140-grains with a 190-grain grizzly head. Wrote that they were from Whispering Wind. Something to check out...
get the complete Fred Bear DVD collection at kustom king and watch the bwana bowmen. you can see that bow and watch Negley take an elephant with it. :thumbsup:
Thanks, Bowspirit!
5deer, that is a very cool film!
Bob Burton(whispering winds) may be at the expo.
His shfts are the split hex pine. he may have other types now.
Chuck
Check with Sticks and Feathers out of Philipsburg, MO. Troy dosen't manufacture wooden shafts any more but I know at one time he told me about making some 120lb spine hardwood shafts for a fellow.
He may be able to put you in contact with whoever bought his equipment.
1000 gr/ 200 fps :scared:
holy schnikeys! I wish I could pull and aim a 100# bow! I am certain some part of my body would disconnect if I even tried.
rider,
My thoughts exactly!
A couple of summers ago I was around when a 105# hill style bow was strung up. I stretched and groaned an managed to fire off a couple of big heavy wood arrows. It is cool. dead quiet, zero shock and buried to the fletch. If I could shoot it good, I would. but I can't so I won't. That aint kids stuff tho, be careful. I was lucky Rider and Irish, nothing detached.(I don't think).
Chuck
When I visited Bill Sweetland I was interested in his equipment, but he had already sold it to the folks in Alaska. His advice to me was to not try to duplicate his process, because it was just too expensive. I took him at his word, although it didn't stop me from experimenting, using a high-temp press at Miss. State University. Got my degree there, and had access to the equipment when they weren't using it for something else.
Bill was a helluva nice guy, and gave me the full tour of his place. Our educations were similar, so we could communicate. We spent several hours discussing arrow shaft production and such.
You might want to look into a product that several companies make. The one I have seen is made by Dalys and is a wood stabilizer or hardener. If you put a dozen shafts in a tube and then filled it up with this stuff and let them soak a week then take out and straighten and let dry tyou can add spine and weight to shafts. You would want to straighten before also. Purple heart or Ipe would be good bets also. Get in touch with Bill Bonczar at Alhegany Mountain Arrow Woods for good info and material. Joseph
I've seen 3/8" ramin shafts that were close to 600 grains bare. with a 300 gr head, they would be close. I've also seen ramin soaked for a week or so in poly, that gained extra weight.
This is some Cool stuff .......