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Main Boards => PowWow => Topic started by: spike buck on January 15, 2010, 09:27:00 AM

Title: Brass Insert vs Heavier Point
Post by: spike buck on January 15, 2010, 09:27:00 AM
Does anyone have any experience testing and noticing a difference, if any, between using a brass insert and lighter point vs a standard alum insert and a heavier point? If the total weight up front is equal with both set-ups will there be any spine changes, penetration difference, etc? Just curious and any feedback is appreciated.
Title: Re: Brass Insert vs Heavier Point
Post by: KentuckyTJ on January 15, 2010, 09:52:00 AM
James yes I switch over two years ago to a thinner diameter lighter broadhead with extra weight behind it. I now use a 100 grain brass insert and a 100 grain broadhead. Great combo for me. My bows are right around 50 lbs and the lighter setups are perfect for me. I've shot many whitetails with this smaller diameter 100 grain head now and I can definitely tell I get better penetration from less drag.

   (http://i197.photobucket.com/albums/aa121/kyTJ/Arrows/broadheads.jpg)
Title: Re: Brass Insert vs Heavier Point
Post by: Bill Kissner on January 15, 2010, 10:12:00 AM
The 100 grain insert which is longer will in effect stiffen the spine because of the extra length. It is the same as cutting the shaft equal to the length of the insert.
Title: Re: Brass Insert vs Heavier Point
Post by: Ragnarok Forge on January 15, 2010, 10:17:00 AM
Putting all the weight forward weakens the spine, moving it further back stiffens it, plus the glue in length of the shaft has a small effect as mentioned above.  The real reason to use brass or steel inserts in my opinion is how tough they are.  Aluminum inserts can bend or fail if a heavy bone is hit, or a steep angle shot on a bone happens.  The brass inserts are tough enough to survive these hits for good penetration.
Title: Re: Brass Insert vs Heavier Point
Post by: xtrema312 on January 15, 2010, 10:28:00 AM
A lot of good advice has been posted.  I test them all because if find a significant difference.  I love the brass inserts for the reasons stated.  I don't foot my arrows, and I have yet to trash the front of an arrow with a brass insert. I have snapped them off an inch or more past the insert on rock hits, but never smashed the insert into the shaft.  The brass ones have more rim width than aluminum.  I also find insert length effects the spine.  I factor that in when looking at combo's using 50 vs. 100 gr. brass inserts.
Title: Re: Brass Insert vs Heavier Point
Post by: T Folts on January 15, 2010, 10:28:00 AM
I think what you are asking if shifting the weight forward using a heavier tip versus shifting the weight back using a brass weight insert is there going to be a difference? My answer is in therory yes (but) will you notice I doubt it. Ive  done it both ways and I dont but someone who shoots much better may or if you set your bow up on a shooting machine you may see a  difference. IMO

Terry
Title: Re: Brass Insert vs Heavier Point
Post by: spike buck on January 15, 2010, 10:43:00 AM
Thanks for the all the replies. As always, great info from you guys!
Title: Re: Brass Insert vs Heavier Point
Post by: kybowman on January 15, 2010, 10:52:00 AM
Spike, great topic. I have been contemplating brass inserts for quite some time.

Thanks for the info TJ!! You explained it perfectly!!!!  

Another option to hunt with my lower draw weight bows. 60lbs can get to be a bear sometimes for an old man, if you know what I mean.  8^)
Title: Re: Brass Insert vs Heavier Point
Post by: Greg Skinner on January 15, 2010, 03:59:00 PM
My experience verifies as said above that the length of the brass insert adds to the stiffness of the spine, so you can't just do a straight across substitution equal grains for equal grains without compensating for arrow length a little bit.  I have also noticed that it seems as though a longer broadhead of same grain weight acts to lessen the spine slightly.  It probably shows up more if your tuning is borderline because I can't usually see a difference in 20 grains of point variation.
Title: Re: Brass Insert vs Heavier Point
Post by: Steelhead on January 15, 2010, 04:52:00 PM
I prefer to go with the brass inserts as well vs bumping up the point weight when using an aluminum insert.Cost a few more bucks.But I feel its worth it to use the brass.Just Plain stronger at the business end of the arrow
Title: Re: Brass Insert vs Heavier Point
Post by: Dan White on January 15, 2010, 05:13:00 PM
Good Topic, I keep learning
Title: Re: Brass Insert vs Heavier Point
Post by: Bush on January 15, 2010, 05:19:00 PM
I prefer a heavier point, because the long brass inserts stiffen the spine, which makes it more complicated to get my arrows to fly straight.  

Also, the heavier broadheads can be made much more solid and sturdy than the light ones.  The 100 grain phantoms are much more flimsy than the 200 grain phantoms.
Title: Re: Brass Insert vs Heavier Point
Post by: Bush on January 15, 2010, 05:21:00 PM
What I meant about the stiffening of the spine is that, since the brass doesn't flex, it makes the first 2" or so of the shaft not flex, which defeats the purpose a little bit of adding weight upfront.

A 100 grain head with a 100 grain insert will have a higher spine than a 200 grain head.
Title: Re: Brass Insert vs Heavier Point
Post by: KentuckyTJ on January 15, 2010, 06:02:00 PM
I don't agree you are stiffening the spine when adding the longer brass insert in this case. We are talking about less that a 1/4" in length difference. Also the brass insert weighs much more than the aluminum regular insert. And we all know when you add weight to the point that weakens spine. The regular insert weighs 20 grains and the brass one we know is 100. So were adding 80 grains up front.

So with that said lets say before he was shooting a 160 grain head with a 20 grain alumimun insert. Thats a 180 grains total.  Now if he went to a 125 grain head and a 100 grain brass insert he has 225 total grains up front.

So the difference between the two setups is 45 grains heavier and with this increase in weight I believe it would offset the spine stiffening of the slightly longer insert.
Title: Re: Brass Insert vs Heavier Point
Post by: Rob DiStefano on January 15, 2010, 06:14:00 PM
i don't have any arrows with foc's lower than 20%.  some use alum inserts and very heavy points, some with 100gr brass inserts and heavy points, some with 100gr brass inserts, heavy points and internal weighted footings.

none fly noticeably different, for me.

personally, for my hunting arrows, i just want to load the front end as much as possible for both high efoc and gpp, to that the hunting arrows are near or above 30% efoc.  again, that's what works for me.
Title: Re: Brass Insert vs Heavier Point
Post by: skarcher on January 15, 2010, 07:38:00 PM
I just finished bare shafting both configurations. For me, at 20 yds, I could not see a difference between heavy inserts/light tips or standard inserts/heavy tips. They all flew to the same place. The reason I wanted to try it is because I have some 100 gr stingers left over from my abandoned compound days and was hoping I could use them. Seems to be no problem at all.
Title: Re: Brass Insert vs Heavier Point
Post by: eddings220 on January 15, 2010, 08:30:00 PM
I actually ordered some 100 gr brass inserts and matched them with 125 gr heads after reading a topic on Ky TJ's 09 season, wow, what a difference it made in some cheap carbon arrows that I had.  The flight of the arrow improved a great deal.
Title: Re: Brass Insert vs Heavier Point
Post by: Guru on January 15, 2010, 08:54:00 PM
I've been messing with the same kind of situation for my Pig Gig arrows...

Same length arrows...both with about 300 grs up front...

One had a reg. insert-about 15grs...125 steel adapter....and 160 gr. point=  300grains

Other has a 50gr brass insert...125 steel adapter...125 point=  300grains

So far with the shooting I've done with the bare shafts, I could not see a noticeable difference with my shooting ability.

Tomorrow I will shoot fletched arrows with Bh's, so we'll see then about the outcome.

But I suspect that they'll be right with the others....
Title: Re: Brass Insert vs Heavier Point
Post by: WildmanSC on January 15, 2010, 09:15:00 PM
The brass inserts provides more support for the front ends of the arrows, carbon or aluminum, IMHO.

Bill
Title: Re: Brass Insert vs Heavier Point
Post by: onewhohasfun on January 16, 2010, 06:19:00 AM
There will not be any alum. on the business end of my hunting arrows. Too wimpy.
Title: Re: Brass Insert vs Heavier Point
Post by: cacciatore on January 16, 2010, 06:37:00 AM
Like TJ and Guru I don't see a big difference within the 2 different set ups,but my feeling are that the brass insert type is more tough.By the way I use 100 brass and finish with a BH of 150-175 grs depending on the bow.I get the sensation that when the broadhead enter in the animal the friction,in case of hard tissues hitting,stops the arrow but the weight behind is still transfering energy.Nothing scientific just my experience.
Title: Re: Brass Insert vs Heavier Point
Post by: Michael Arnette on January 16, 2010, 08:59:00 AM
I have found that a 50 gr brass insirt can be used instead of extra pt weight with no change in spine but the longer 100 gr. inserts do stiffen the shaft in my case because my shaft is trimmed short so the over hang at my draw will put the back end of the brass insert behind the edge fo the rest so they actually do stiffen the shaft a bit. This does not happen if the shaft is cut a couple inches longer than ones draw length to allow the long insert to effect spine.
Title: Re: Brass Insert vs Heavier Point
Post by: Guru on January 19, 2010, 07:03:00 AM
Ok.....Sunday I shot the arrows and bare shafts described earlier....5 posts above....

Just as I'd hoped, and figured,  like Skarcher, I couldn't tell a bit of difference in arrow flight or point of impact.  

I shot the arrows each several times, they both flew great and to the same spot.

Them did the same with bare shafts...same result!

I guess,maybe with a hooter-shooter and a mechanical release you might see a small difference.....but I sure couldn't.....

This all puts my tried and true Wensel Woodsman into the "game" at the Pig-Gig     :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Brass Insert vs Heavier Point
Post by: spike buck on January 19, 2010, 09:01:00 AM
I think this one's closed. Thanks to those who tested and reported back. I'm gonna stick w/ the brass inserts....James
Title: Re: Brass Insert vs Heavier Point
Post by: davesonic444 on January 19, 2010, 11:40:00 AM
I find the inserts will increase spline and confirmed this with stu miller's spline calculator.
Title: Re: Brass Insert vs Heavier Point
Post by: BWD on January 19, 2010, 05:03:00 PM
I can't shoot the difference, and confirmed this by shooting in the backyard.
Title: Re: Brass Insert vs Heavier Point
Post by: LKH on January 19, 2010, 05:17:00 PM
I measure the inserts and the brass insert only goes into the arrow 11/32" more than the aluminum.  It is slightly less than 1/2" longer, but that's all the more that is in the shaft.  

From what I've read here about how much cutting the shaft affects the spine, I don't think anyone would notice the shooting difference of two arrows with equal weight forward that had brass and aluminum insert.


That said, the strength and convenience of the brass insert make it the only thing I use.

Anyone need a few dozen aluminum inserts.
Title: Re: Brass Insert vs Heavier Point
Post by: MSwickard on January 19, 2010, 09:11:00 PM
I've been doing the same as Guru.  My set up was 11 gr insert, 75 gr steel adapter and 160 gr point

Verses

50gr brass insert, 26 gr Al adapter and 160 gt point.

Basically 248gr v. 236 gr.  

Can't tell any difference.  

My opinion is to go with a steel adapter.  The Al adapter is the weal link in the chain.  I've bent plently of adapters but really haven't spilt the shaft.

Mike
Title: Re: Brass Insert vs Heavier Point
Post by: sbschindler on January 19, 2010, 11:09:00 PM
I have a question about the longer 100 grain brass insert and stu Millers dynamic spine calculator and arrow lenght, the general opinion is that the longer insert stiffens the shaft, well ok when i put in the length of the arrrow should I put in the length of the arrow to the back of the insert and not the point, I know that the common belief is the back of point but thinking outside the box maybe back of insert would give better info ????????
Title: Re: Brass Insert vs Heavier Point
Post by: onemoreshot on January 19, 2010, 11:27:00 PM
Hey Rob.How much point weight are ya using on your huntin arrows? Thanks
Title: Re: Brass Insert vs Heavier Point
Post by: Guru on January 20, 2010, 07:05:00 AM
Guys, All I know is that I've never paid any attention to any "spine calculator"...not that's there's anything wrong with it, it's probably a good starting point....but...

I get out and shoot....that's the best way to test anything.

How that little bit of extra length insert(50gr. brass) can effect the spine in actual shooting conditions is beyond me and my shooting ability I guess.

The small "weight shift" in the two set-ups was my only question, and my shooting of those arrows/bare shafts answered that.

Written on paper maybe, but all of us on this thread that have actually tried/shot their two diff. arrow set-ups said the same thing....they shot the same...

Maybe it's different for the longer 100gr. inserts.I've never tried them...but if and when I do want to use them in a set-up, I'm not going to let a chart or someone tell me they will/won't work....I'll get out and try them myself.....

FWIW...
I've bent plenty of steel adapters, they're not invincible either...

Bottom line...build a solid arrow, with quality components, and get out and shoot it(bare shaft and fletched)!  Don't go by what others tell you or what you read. We're all diff., we all shoot a little diff...

Use charts and advice as basic starting points, but until you try something for yourself...you'll never know if it's actually going to work for YOU!
Title: Re: Brass Insert vs Heavier Point
Post by: George D. Stout on January 20, 2010, 07:26:00 AM
If 1/4" of insert length messes up your spine, it was wrong to start with.  Spine has never really changed over the years, the only change is how we mess with it.  Guru is giving some good information...shoot and find out what works well.  If knowing percentages makes you happy, then write them down and peruse them at your leisure.  8^).
Title: Re: Brass Insert vs Heavier Point
Post by: Richie Nell on January 20, 2010, 07:42:00 AM
I totally agree with Guru and George.  
I have never been too crazy about that cookie cutter calculator.  It wasn't even close to what really works with my set up.  
I think that each individuals shooting style, form and release is very underrated in importance and has everything to do with the quality of arrow flight.
Like Guru said...use the larger building blocks to get you started then get your fanny in your back yard and shoot, think, shoot, figure, shoot, tweek and shoot somemore.  Then you will know which arrow and arrow componenents work well when YOU shoot YOUR bow.  
THAT is when you can build confidence in your weapon and carry that to the moment of truth in the woods.
Title: Re: Brass Insert vs Heavier Point
Post by: Terry Green on January 20, 2010, 07:57:00 AM
QuoteOriginally posted by onewhohasfun:
There will not be any alum. on the business end of my hunting arrows. Too wimpy.
I'd like an honest answer on what you are basing that statement on. What you have 'heard', 'read on the internet', or real life experiences????

The reason is I've been using aluminum adapters and inserts since 1980 and from bunnies to bison I've bent only 3 adapter post on deer. All 3 on deer and the all died as well. And one a hog that also died.

I've bent a half dozen or so while shooting judos over the years as well.  And most of those probably bent cause the judo wasn't screwed on tight.

While I have only had little limited experience with steel adaptors, I have bent one of them also.
Title: Re: Brass Insert vs Heavier Point
Post by: davesonic444 on January 20, 2010, 11:51:00 AM
I had one of the steel adators break just at the broadhead.I never had aluminum do this in 35 yrs of hunting.
Title: Re: Brass Insert vs Heavier Point
Post by: buckeyebowhunter on January 20, 2010, 12:44:00 PM
I have been contemplating this same situation. A few weeks ago i bareshaft tuned some cx 150's that i had with 225 grain points, and also 175 grain points, and then the 125's that i had always shot. The 125's flew nock right badly, the 175's still flew a little bit nock right, and finaly the 225's flew straight but it seemed like they nose dived quicly at only about 20 yards. I was hoping to get an arrow to fly perfect with minimal drop at about 20-25 yards. And then possibly buy some brass inserts at either 50 or 100 grns, and continue shooting my 125 grain muzzys. But im not really sure what to do.
Title: Re: Brass Insert vs Heavier Point
Post by: onewhohasfun on January 20, 2010, 02:53:00 PM
I have experienced two bent alum adapters on live game bone hits. I know not a lot of data there. But  all my practice is stumpin with judos and old broadheads for past 20 some odd years. I used to bend or break alum. components almost daily. Steel and brass will still fail occasionally, but not nearly as often as alum. Plus I like the weight up front steel and brass offer. I am pretty hard on arrows. I destroyed 9 judos just this past summer and fall. Steel has held up better for me. Don't have replace bent parts nearly as often. When stumping never shoot at anything white. It's probably a ROCK!
Title: Re: Brass Insert vs Heavier Point
Post by: hkmp5 on January 20, 2010, 11:31:00 PM
Hello Howler,
I like the way you think!  It would be better if we all measured to the back of insert as you mentioned....however, there is no good way of knowing this dimension after the arrow is assembled.  The Calculator takes the average length of a RPS insert (0.9") into account whenever a aluminum , carbon or "other" shaft is selected.   When using a insert that is known to be longer (like a 100 gr brass) then simply put the extra length past the 0.9" in the footing length section and it will take into account the extra length.  If you think about it, a long insert or NIB point is basically an internal footing.  Just remember to enter tocorrect weight in the insert weight field and select "yes" in the footing field.

In the setups that I have played with using 100 grain long brass inserts, the extra weight of the insert offsets the effective decreased arrow length and the resultant change in dynamic spine is relatively small.
-Stu
Title: Re: Brass Insert vs Heavier Point
Post by: bshunter on January 20, 2010, 11:46:00 PM
I have noticed the same thing...if I tune with a 200 gr point and then glue in a 100 gr brass and 125 gr head, they seem to be stiffer with the brass vs. heavy point. That being said, I now try and use saran wrap to keep my brass inserts  in while tuning.
Title: Re: Brass Insert vs Heavier Point
Post by: daveycrockett on January 20, 2010, 11:49:00 PM
QuoteOriginally posted by bshunter:
I have noticed the same thing...if I tune with a 200 gr point and then glue in a 100 gr brass and 125 gr head, they seem to be stiffer with the brass vs. heavy point. That being said, I now try and use saran wrap to keep my brass inserts  in while tuning.
Me too. Only the long 100's do this the shorter 50 gr. works the same as head weight alone.