Last year I was shooting a 55# @ 28" Kodiak Magnum using 27 1/2 inch 2216 Easton Legacy shafts with 70 grain inserts and 150 grain Woodsman broadheads. I had a good season with more than half of my shots being complete pass throughs. This year I had a Ferguson Z-58 built 55# @ 27" using the same arrow combination I was not pleased with penetration. I only had 2 complete pass through shots which in turn made tracking much more difficult. It the difference in penetration the speed difference between a recurve and a long bow? I'm thinking of going to a 170 grain Zwickey to get more penetration, is this a good move or should I reduce the insert weight to try and gain more speed.
Strip one of your arrows bare and shoot it and see how it flys.A 2216 sounds too stiff for a longbow,the riser is probably not cut as deep as the Kodiak Magnum.It is a different bow and you will probably need to tune arrows for it.Just some suggestions.
too much? :D
i have 500gr up front no my new Buff arrows and if i could get more i would :readit:
i love High FOC arrows
I'm with tradtusker I don't think you can have to much as long as you are still getting good arrow flight. I would rather have a slower heavier arrow than a faster lighter arrow. Maybe you hit bone and that is why you did not get all pass throughs?
I agree with JRY309, it sounds like your arrows are overspined for your bow. You can lose quite a bit of efficiency with an untuned bow/arrow combination.
I don't know how much is too much.....
But I know how much is enough for me. Been shooting 175 grains since the early 80s from bunnys to bison.
Depends on your set up and head choice. Some could benefit from more.
If you can't get through whitetails with either of those set ups. ... There may be another problem. Like bad arrow flight.
I shoot 400 up front and would also shoot more if I could get it to shoot good. The recurve is probably not faster than the longbow. just shelf cut differently.
Bigjim
I've been toy'n around with the same question and I keep comeing up with a 50 grain brass insert and 175 head for a total of 225 point weight.
The 2216 normally would be too stiff for your setup. BUT, by adding more weight up front you could eventually get it weak enough to be tuned to your bow. I have hot-glued .25 caliber bullets right behind the insert to add weight to the front of an aluminum arrow which was too stiff. It worked great. It depends on how much total weight you want in an arrow before it gets just plain too heavy. But, that may not be such a bad thing either, except when it comes to trajectory. But most shots on game are at 20 yards or less so I say go for it!
It's rare that I don't shoot through adult whitetails with sub 50 pound bows and Bear Razorheads...with no excess weight up front.
If you are having problems, as Terry said, it's probably arrow flight. Watch for that infamous line of diminishing returns. It's out there and some have already crossed.
I once glued a cinder block to the front of an arrow and it didn't fly worth a dang!
Seriously though, I think the 2216 is a really stiff arrow for those draw weights, and if the recurve is cut to center more than the longbow is, the arrow is going to have to flex more when you shoot it out of the longbow. I think this is probably what's happening to you. Try A LOT more weight up front and see what happens.
Or maybe you can uncut your arrows. :)
Have fun.
Kirk Billings
QuoteOriginally posted by el_kirk:
I once glued a cinder block to the front of an arrow and it didn't fly worth a dang!
Ok your problem is that cinder blocks don't fly well. It was not the FOC. Try a bowling ball next time. I think you will see a great improvement.
It's too much when the arrow shows weak. If the arrow tunes with 500 grains up front shoot it. If it tunes with 75 shoot that. High foc is great but only helps if tuning is correct. I try to get as High foc as possible. Cut the arrows to 1in past your draw length and add point weight till they tune. If the arrows ends up heavy go down in shaft spine.
Thanks for the great input, our thoughts seem to be the same that more FOC will weaken the shaft, all though the arrows seem to be flying well at this time. How about the 3 blade vs. 2 blade broad head?
what terry and george just typed.
in the long run, it's all about having a well placed arrow that flies true, with a truly sharp cut-on-contact broadhead.
experimenting with gpp and efoc isn't a bad thing, it's just a thing that you may come to appreciate, and it just may give you better arrow flight and deeper penetration.
or maybe not.
won't know until you do some testing for yerself.
QuoteOriginally posted by benjiec:
Thanks for the great input, our thoughts seem to be the same that more FOC will weaken the shaft, all though the arrows seem to be flying well at this time. How about the 3 blade vs. 2 blade broad head?
NOT from my vantage point - lots more front end has no visual bad flight effect on my arrows and i'm running over 30% efoc.
you need to do yer own experiment testing to see for yerself.
i don't care whether the cut-on-contact broadhead has 2, 3, or 4 blades - just make 'em sharp.
Rob, with that much weight up front, doesn't your arrow want to nose dive as soon as it leaves the bow?
QuoteOriginally posted by Doc Pain:
Rob, with that much weight up front, doesn't your arrow want to nose dive as soon as it leaves the bow?
you forgot to add the smiley face ... :D
Sorry Rob, I haven't learned to use all the icons yet!
QuoteOriginally posted by Doc Pain:
Sorry Rob, I haven't learned to use all the icons yet!
:D :wavey:
most longbows arent quite center shot like recurves. arrow spine becomes more of a concern.
QuoteOriginally posted by wojo124:
most longbows arent quite center shot like recurves. arrow spine becomes more of a concern.
yes, it absolutely sure could. emphasis on 'could'.
the need to control spine depends on more factors than just arrow stiffness, so i've discovered to my chagrin after decades of chasing the arrow spine.
shaft material, arrow balance and how you shoot are added important factors and why i can get excellent flight from my way way less stiff carbons with well over 400 grains up front.
EFOC is what I call 'peripheral'. Its not and should not be the main focus or goal.
Some folks have forgotten how lethal the bow and arrow are without all the 'peripheral' static that goes around.
A well tuned bow and arrow at 9-10 grains per pound and a sharp broadhead are lethal on any North American Game no matter if the FOC is 12 or 35%.
Arrow flight, sharpness and ACCURACY trump all the peripheral stuff, and too many as of late are losing sight of that. And animals haven't become armor plated over night, or immuned to set ups that have worked for bowhunters for centuries.
Accuracy....sharp head...and arrow flight-arrow flight-ARROW FLIGHT!!!
precisely what terry sez.
get the flight right, be consistently accurate at hunting distances ... then maybe tinker. :D
No No NO Rob!!! HUNT...then maybe tinker :D
I'm calling Ray!!!...Also can go back to last years spot no problem.
QuoteOriginally posted by Terry Green:
No No NO Rob!!! HUNT...then maybe tinker :D
I'm calling Ray!!!...Also can go back to last years spot no problem.
mmmm, yeah ... HUNT!!!! :clapper:
I could not agree more with Terry. Accuracy and straight shooting arrows should be the goal. If you can work EFOC into your set up I think it is for the best.
Ben,my first impression when I read your post was simply that shooting the same arrows out of a recurve (centershot) and a longbow (not centershot) will not be compatible. Poor penetration often is the result of arrows shooting poorly. My guess and recommendation is that your longbow would do better with a lighter spined shaft or a longbow 10# heavier. I made custom arrows for a number of years and this was always the case unless the longbow was cut to or past center like most recurves are.I hope you like to tinker because I believe that to get the same results with your longbow you are going to have to experiment with different arrows. Good luck and have fun.
What Terry said!!
My own set up with a 55# @29" Dan Toelke Whip: Beman MFX 500 Classics cut 30 1/2" throat of nock to b.o.p.- two 100 grain brass inserts, 145 gr. field pts., 3 five inch parabolics, total weight of 655 grains. When paper tuning at 5 yards they produces a clean, even 5/8" hole every time. Carbons are MUCH,MUCH, more heavily spined than the manufacturers charts indicate.
QuoteOriginally posted by Jim Wright:
My own set up with a 55# @29" Dan Toelke Whip: Beman MFX 500 Classics cut 30 1/2" throat of nock to b.o.p.- two 100 grain brass inserts, 145 gr. field pts., 3 five inch parabolics, total weight of 655 grains. When paper tuning at 5 yards they produces a clean, even 5/8" hole every time. Carbons are MUCH,MUCH, more heavily spined than the manufacturers charts indicate.
:thumbsup: :thumbsup: