Ok, based on info given to me last month, I purchased 7595 goldtip trad arrows. I made them up with 1 inch of 2213 footing on front and 1/4in footing on the back. 175gr heads and 4x4" fletching and 32" overall. These bareshafted excellent and I am shooting great groups with them.....however, I was looking at my overall arrow weight, which is 585gr and within the 9gr per pound of draw limit, but I am wondering if they are too light, my FOC is pretty low, I think around 16% if I understand Stu Miller's calculator right.
Is this too low of FOC or overall arrow weight? Should I try to bump up to 190gr heads or leave my setup as is?
Oh, my specs are r/d longbow, #63@31.5
Thanks,
Jethro
If, you are happy with the set up, shoot'em!
Personally I don't think there is anything wrong with 16% FOC or 9 gpp. What are you shooting that you need a better arrow than that with 63#@31.5"? Sounds like it would put the hurt on most things.
I guess I don't know what minimum or "acceptable standard" (if there is such a thing) there is for FOC. 16% seems low, but I could be wrong. I also wasn't sure if I should have more grains per pound of draw.
This is a elk/deer/javalina arrow.
Before the EFOC craze, 10-15% was normal. A high FOC is great when you can get it, but what you have will work just fine.
They will work fine if they fly true. My carbons weigh 575, Thats with 200 up front out of a 65 lb and a 70 lb bow and I have killed elk, deer, bear and everything in between. I often think they may be to light, but then I think about the phrase " If it isn't broken don't fix it." Seems to be working, and I have shot this set up for several years. Not sure what the FOC is.
Jethro,
IF you want to make your arrow better then you can. Before the EFOC craze there wasn't much knowledge about making your arrow better but now we have more know how.
IF you want it better you can make it better. It is totally up to you but the option is there.
I have a 31.5 inch 7595 Trad setup with over 400 up front for total weight of 770 and 26% EFOC.
You could shoot something very similar, IF you wanted an improvement. And the best research available says it would be an improvement.
Jethro if your arrows are flying well I would not change a thing. Besides you can't increase weight up front without shortening the shafts, and you don't have the room for that. In the future you could go to a stiffer shaft, more weight up front and higher FOC. But dead is dead, and your current set up does not take a back seat to anything.
If they are flying perfect/tuned it will kill anything on the North American Continent IMO and what ever is standing on the other side of it with proper shot placement.
Sounds to me like you are just peachy. If you are happy with your flight & accuracy, rock on...
All the arrows I use are 495-540 grains with an FOC of 10%-13%.One of the best flying arrows in my bows, most of which are 53-55# at my 28.5" draw length are 29.5" 2213's that weigh 495 grains in total with a 125 grain broadhead or point.
I can advise these Trad lightweights with cost effective 125 grain Magnus 2 blade broadheads bury to the fletching in the boiler room of a deer at 22 yards. I can further report the last one I gave this teatment to made it 20 yards before dying and left a short blood trail I could have followed with my nose...
With all due respect to the super FOC/single bevel devotees, we killed game using relatively light arrows with 10%-15% FOC for a lot of years. If big FOC is your thing or your taking on big, dense, dangerous critters rock on, but for medium game (lets face it, the vast majority of our hunting is deer sized critters) it isn't needed...
This will be my first year at EFOC. Up until now I've been pretty good at taking animals with about 10 gpp and 12% FOC.
Mike
Why does everybody turn archery into a physics project?
Grab a bow grab some arrows, and go have fun.
Do you guys realize that when you add weight up front, you soften the spine of the arrow? This is why guys shooting 50 lb bows are shooting 80+lb shafts.
Also the rule of thumb was: 8-10 grains of arrow weight for every pound of bow weight.
When my arrow zips through a deer, he-she has no idea what the FOC is!
Jim
At 9gr/lb, it is not too light for the bow.
At 585gr total, it is way above "too light" for hunting anything in North America.
So no - your arrow is not too light.
This is a very subjective topic and everybody's right in their set up as long as they like it and it gets the job done properly. Sounds like your having great success with your set up so run with it. On the other hand if your a "tinkerer" like most of us here, then you may find yourself getting one of several different arrows and messing with them. Try something that's out of your comfort zone. Do head to head tests out in the yard. Test flight, penetration, try intentionally making a poor release or anything else you can to simulate a hunting situation. Watch the arrow's. See how fast they recover in flight or which ones more forgiving to you as the shooter. In my opinion, I'm a firm beleiver in high FOC with a skinny diameter arrow. American Indians and Physics has proven that the more weight you have in the front the faster an arrow will recover/stabilize in flight meaning maximum energy pushing directly behind your broadhead instead of oscillating/wobbling around it. The skinny arrow has less surface area which means it's less likley to be affected by air drag and will have less friction against it when it's passing into a target or animal which equals maximum penetration (remember there is no substitute for a razor sharp broadhead regardless of style).
Here's my arrow that I am currently shooting out of three totally different bows (all bows are 51# to 55#) with super results: 29" Easton Axis 500 with two standard inserts up front with a 200gr point/broadhead, 3 4" feathers straight fletched with a slight offset. My finished arrow weighs in at 485gr. and has 23% FOC. I know it's on the light side, but the penetration I'm getting is outstanding. I'm always trying to maximize my arrows potential. If technoligy would allow me I'd have 480gr in front and 5gr. for the rest of the arrow. Of course I know this is highly unlikely but that's how much I love FOC. :thumbsup:
You are in the middle of regular FOC (10-15%) and extreme FOC (15-20%). You are also in the middle of what was considered normal arrow weight (8-10 gpp) before the extreme arrow weight craze kicked-in recently.
With your poundage, draw length, and arrow weight.... you can be confident that your setup is more than adequate. Good hunting skills and good shot placement will make any EFOC or EGPP setup seem trivial at best. Focus on what you need to do to get that sharp broadhead where it should be, and the rest will take care of itself quite easily.
Was every archer/bowhunter who lived before us wrong? Did not elk and even elephant succumb to well placed arrows that were not front loaded?
Are we to suggest that anything except EFOC arrows are inefficient? Of course not.
Some folks are in that "epiphany" state over recently published data from the Ashby report(s).
That's okay, but it doesn't negate what has happened prior; it is just another choice, out of many choices.
Some of us are very happy with standard fronts of center, double bevel broadheads, and longbows and recurves under ninety pounds. We are happy because we know what works, and has worked for centuries no doubt, will still work well indeed.
Not to say the EFOC and such is B.S., because that would not be true either. It is saying....look at what has worked as a model for what will work and don't be confused by those who would tell you different. There is a line of diminishing returns on both sides of the spectrum, and there's nothing wrong with being in the middle.
Your arrows are fine, as long as they are flying perfectly. No amount of EFOC or Mass will make up for wobbly flight or angled impact.
Well said George
The following is from the Ashby updated report. As you can see Extreme is from 19% - 30%. Don't beat yourself to death over this. If your arrows are flying great. Why change?
FOC Terminology
Prior testing has shown a substantial increase in
penetration when arrow FOC is above 19%. This created a need to
divide arrow FOC into different classes. Conventionally "Normal"
FOC has been recognized as any amount up to 12%, with "High" FOC
being all amounts above that. The Study has kept the Normal FOC
definition, but has subdivided FOC's above 12%. "High FOC" is
Study-defined as being between 12% and 19%. Between 19% and 30%
is "Extreme FOC" (EFOC). FOC above 30% is defined as "Ultra-
Extreme FOC" (Ultra-EFOC). For a complete discussion of what FOC
is, how it's measured and what it means for arrow performance
Speaking of diminishing returns I have a question that I've somewhat been afraid to ask b/c I dont want to be lambasted, berated or labeled a blasphemer..
I am still in the process of learning and achieving good flight and form. I stepped into the FOC arena and now I have stepped out, and I plan to focus on my shooting skills and tuning accumen for awhile. Then maybe revisit later.
My question is this, has anyone who is shooting heavy GPP (15-16) noticed any interesting trajectory with FOC at 30% out past say 25 yards?? Esp. at yardages past 25???
Again I'm asking about High GPP over 15, FOC at or over 30% and yardages past 25. I'm sure other have tried this and I am curious as to their observations on trajectory when comparing say a HIGH GPP, 30% FOC arrow out past 25 yards to a HIGH GPP, 20% FOC arrow out past 25 yards (same mass). Logic tell us there would be no difference in trajectory if mass is same and placing of the weight is the only differce. I would like to hear from someone who has actually done it w/ the above specs and hear what they say.
Thanks!!
Despite the fact that I prefer heavier FOC I believe that a straight shooting arrow trumps all the other factors involved in penetration as long as the bh is sharp. I've killed plenty of stuff before I discovered EFOC. If your arrows are shooting straight I wouldn't worry about anything. If you are a tinkerer and like playing with stuff then do some experimenting but there is nothing "wrong" with what you have.
Bill is pretty much on in his view. There is room for a lot of experimenting and it can be much fun....and very enlightening. As long as you aren't trying to shove your philosophy down someone elses' throat, you will get along fine.
As mentioned, those diminishing returns will show up on either end; too light, and you have noise, vibration, and perhaps penetration issues.
If you have too much, you will have loss of power, excessive trajectory and diminished performance, rather than better.
There is a happy medium for each of us....you decide. My arrows have not changed in five decades, as far as fronts-of-center goes, and my arrows don't lack on the penetration side and my point-on is out about fifty-five'ish yards. That's my happy medium, and it is always supported by a bloody arrow sticking in the dirt on the far side of a mature whitetail, or a four for twenty at fifty-five yards. :thumbsup:
The no. 1 thing to strive for is perfect arrow flight. Everything else is optional window dressing. At your arrow weight, you have nothing to worry about.
"light" is a relevant term
to wheelie shooters it means 350 grains and less
for a 85# longbow shooter going after water buffalo I imagine under 1000 grains is light
read Ashby's reports, as it currently sits I'm a huge believer in weighted carbons, high FOC front, big 2 blade single bevel heads ( I shoot a Steel Force right now, 225) and my total wieght is about 680 I think out of a 53# Zipper bow
I blew threw and buried 8" deep in the off ground on the buck i shot this year
Jethro21,
If your happy with your setup and the way your arrows are flying you should be ok. If your goal is to get the higest foc you can shoot with your set up, you have a lot room to play with. Im shooting 60lb at my 29" draw. I have 400 grains up front with a total arrow weight of 730 grains. I love the way my arrows fly, straight and hard. If it were me I would go heavier not because you need to but because you can. And its a lot fun. Good Luck
Gilbert
With the weight you are shooting and your draw length I would not even worry about putting broadheads on the arrows. :biglaugh: The arrow is plenty heavy and the performance you get with those long arms makes worring about foc just a bit silly. ;)
try this- my setup is a 44# recurve with........a 390gr. arrow..yes, that is the total weight, 100 gr. broadhead included. on top of that i have a 26" draw! but my 2 blade broadheads slip right thru deer and into the dirt behind them. your setup is fine. EFOC is just something that'll make you worry yourself.
Thanks for the imput guys. I was just thinking that 9ggp is the "bottom" for arrow weight and I was thinking maybe I was too close to that. That is just beginner stupidity I guess. I am pretty confident that 585gr is plenty of weight, but I don't think I had been influenced by the FOC craze. I didn't know what standard or average FOC was...so now that I know, I am peachy and hoping for an elk tag this season.
Jethro
Fred eichler, I just watch take his 29 th north american big game animal @ "just under 500 gr" as he said. Man 29 differant speices of animals.
If your arrows are flying well, and apparently they are, leave it alone. You're structurally safe at over 9gr/in and your total shaft weight is good. As far as foc goes, that whole thing hasn't been completely settled.
QuoteOriginally posted by Bill Carlsen:
Despite the fact that I prefer heavier FOC I believe that a straight shooting arrow trumps all the other factors involved in penetration as long as the bh is sharp. I've killed plenty of stuff before I discovered EFOC. If your arrows are shooting straight I wouldn't worry about anything. If you are a tinkerer and like playing with stuff then do some experimenting but there is nothing "wrong" with what you have.
bill's right on the money. :thumbsup:
gpp, foc, efoc, lmnop, and etc are well and good, and surely might be an advantage if approached correctly.
it's the basics that take the majority of game - good flying arrow with a sharp broadhead that's well placed to the spot.
improving on the basics, for you, can also a good thing. maybe.
QuoteOriginally posted by Jim Curlee:
Why does everybody turn archery into a physics project?
Grab a bow grab some arrows, and go have fun.
Do you guys realize that when you add weight up front, you soften the spine of the arrow? This is why guys shooting 50 lb bows are shooting 80+lb shafts.
Also the rule of thumb was: 8-10 grains of arrow weight for every pound of bow weight.
When my arrow zips through a deer, he-she has no idea what the FOC is!
Jim
Jim,
There's nothing wrong with people trying to get the maximum capability out of their bow/arrow combination. It's a proven fact that an arrow with EFOC maximizes penetration and tends to make arrows fly better than ones that aren't as heavy on the front end, thus, making them easier to tune. EFOC just makes your arrow zip through that deer a little bit easier. Nothing wrong with a little experimenting to find out what works best out of a person's bow setup.
QuoteOriginally posted by Jim Curlee:
Why does everybody turn archery into a physics project?
well, not exactly everybody, but i hear yer point.
Grab a bow grab some arrows, and go have fun.
yep, for sure! however, with killing in mind, ya gotta make sure ya know fairly well what yer doing with respect to gear - not everyone does.
Do you guys realize that when you add weight up front, you soften the spine of the arrow? This is why guys shooting 50 lb bows are shooting 80+lb shafts.
your statement is NOT at all true, it's a generality at best.
with over 400 grains at the front end of my 'spineless' beman 500 ics 29.5" 685 grain carbons, and 55# longbow, i can tell ya that i have no weak spine issues and my arrow flight is straight and wiggle free out to 35 yards.
Also the rule of thumb was: 8-10 grains of arrow weight for every pound of bow weight.
still is, for me.
When my arrow zips through a deer, he-she has no idea what the FOC is!
yup, no better truth be told. so just enjoy what works for you and don't even bother thinking about gpp, foc, efoc, lmnop and etc.
i'm open to all thoughts that might make my bowhunting better. so i at least look into things like efoc, high gpp and skinny strings. maybe even try some out, and then make up my own mind what works and what don't. for me, high gpp, efoc and skinny strings ADDS to my shooting & bowhunting. nothing wrong with that at all. to each their own.
....
I think that progress in civilisation comes from trials, experiments and comparisons then you will decide what is better for you,here are few decads of experiences and differents but valid points of view.
Absolutely not too light. I've been shooting that weight for years out of bow specs similar to yours in energy.
No worries at all. I'll email you a link later.
QuoteOriginally posted by Jack Whitmire Jr:
If they are flying perfect/tuned it will kill anything on the North American Continent IMO and what ever is standing on the other side of it with proper shot placement.
Yeah. What he said too.