Trad Gang

This is just a precaution if using paypal. Worked good, but thsy have added transaction fees that I wasn't aware of.

I sold my bow - got paid in US funds (I live in canada)...they took $23.50 US for the transfer and only gave me $1.0000823 on the dollar for the exchange rate when the bank rate is 1.03.

Anyway I negotiated the price in US to cover the shipping to the new owner...then you get ripped like this from this company (lesson learned).

In the future I will get a bank draft and use SNAIL MAIL I guess.

This is pretty sneaky of them.

jer Bear

I am not a fan.  Just can't give who knows who my bank account number.  And when xbay about forced it's use for all their sales, I had enough of both.

next ask the buyer to pay you in US funds, let him take the hit....
   I have used PayPal for years and Luv it....

I use Paypal all the time and love it!! They have always charged a fee for transactions.

I did get paid in US funds - and I compensated for the canadian to cover the cost of shipping which I thought would be about 25 bucks  - canadian...but after the paypal cost and their pathetic exchange I am out about 50 bucks - so it's just a precaution.

As far as bank accounts and visa numbers etc - if you think the powers at be don't already have that info somewhere...well think again.

Why do you think they don't want us to use CASH - and want us to use hyberspace money (digits) cause they can manipulate it anyway they want (don't get me started there please).

jer Bear

I found that out the hard way too. Seems weird, one day I was using it without getting scammed then all of a sudden they started charging me. Would have been nice to get a memo.   :rolleyes:  
I like Paypal if the buyer is willing to cover the charges, I can ship the item to them faster and both buyer and seller are protected.
 
Otherwise a money order from the post office is fine with me.    :thumbsup:

Good to know,  I have used Pay-pal for years with alot of success.  It does offer some security in getting your product or refund. Everything is at a cost.  But I have not used for out of country purchases, so appreciate the heads up on this one.

Yep out of country costs a bit more but I will not use any other method for out of country transactions.  YOu only have to get scammed once and loose a bow and all of the fees you pay for security become real cheap.

Mike

I did a lot of **** business two years ago - were silver powersellers and took paypal regularly. Had an outstanding account status and paid about 600.00 a month in fees to **** alone.

One day we had a LARGE sum of money missing from our account - thought our account was hacked. Turns out paypal made an error. After 3 months of calling, talking to reps ect - they finally reenbursed the account after our bank got involved. The killer was they had admitted the error months prior.

Was like talking to a brick wall. Needless to say i use paypal but since then NEVER have linked it back to a bank account.

But i agree with wingnut - takes once to get scammed and overseas stuff - paypal all the way.

Good info. I'll not use them if I don't have to. E-bray lost many users when their fees went up also.

Love Paypal.  Any credit card company charges the seller for it's use...no different.  Paypal, however, never charges the buyer for using it.

I am not saying it's bad - i am just saying do your homework before you buy or sell.

I am so glad the fella is getting the shrew bow and I know he will LOVE IT....just trying to get out of it what I think it's worth. Timing is NOTHING...I could care less if it takes 2 weeks for the bank draft to get here.

I can send the bow then.....I just hate having to pay ppl lots of money to do a transaction online...Now I also realize they need to make money, but let me know ahead of time what that will be.

I suggested they have a mock page to put your info on...just costs etc adn see what the return would be...that way I know going in that's all..NO REPLY nada nothing.

jer Bear

Just as an fyi...if you have funds to cover a purchase and if the seller doesn't mind you sending it as a gift...granted you must trust the seller...they don't take the fee out.

So...if you have money in your PayPal account and can cover the whole cost of the payment from your current PayPal balance you could do it that way without the recipient/seller being charged the fees.

Josh

I have done plenty of US to Canada transactions, and only used paypal once. I understood the 3% charge- no problems with that. But I was incensed when the pirates took the excessive exchange on top of that. Never again- an international money order from either country is just as guaranteed, and it costs less than the 3%.

The story continues - they charged the buyer - 1.06 for exchange too.

So he got nailed for 48 bucks instead of 24 for a supposid .97 exchange on the dollar - so they ripped us both off for about 75 US which is about 80 bucks canadian combined....

That's not good for one transaction(well unless you are them I guess).

jer Bear

George,

There's a pretty big difference.  PayPal charges twice as much as credit card companies charge.  Not much for you and me, but it sure can eat the bottom line for a big company.

Folks not to get off the trail so to speak.The last bow I sold was to a Trad Ganger in Canada. He sent me a Canadian Postal Money Order. I took it to my bank to cash it and was told oh no we can't cash it here or now. I said WHAT!!?? They said they have to send it out. It will take 10 to 14 working days. OK . I get a statement and they charged me 15 buckeroos to do it!!! Go figure.

I'm confused. Was the buyer in Canada?  If he was in the US and payed in US funds, why did he get charged  an exchange fee?  I have paypalled Canada many times and never been charged a fee?  I can understand if he was Canadian, because there was an exchange there.

I spent a career in the banking business, and I have a little different perspective on it.  Some of it you may find helpful (although frightfully boring)  

Paypal fees are actually pretty similar to Mastercard and VISA fees from a sellers standpoint.  I accept all three in my business.  Paypal is a flat 3%.  The rate on MC and VISA is a little lower, but the bank that processes those transactions for me also has a transaction fee, a monthly statement fee, etc., etc.
Add it all up and my costs are about the same either way, so MC, VISA, Paypal, it all works.  

Sure, I wish I could only do business with checks and money orders.  But a good percentage of my customers would probably go elsewhere if I tried that, and then I run all the risks of fraud, bad checks, etc. etc.  

As a former banker, I can tell you that forged money orders are one of the more popular scams.  If a person wants to burn you they can do it that way as well.  And foreign checks or money orders?  No way.

Bentpole, I'm guessing that the Canadian Money Order you received was not drawn on a US bank.  That means it has to go through the foreign collection system and the bank doesn't get there money for weeks during that process.  So they can't really credit you for it until it clears collection.  It is an archaic system, but that's how it works.  And the scary part is that even once they receive credit for it, foreign checks can be returned sometimes months after initially being processed.  And if a check comes back bad, your bank will charge you for it.  You're the one who originally accepted the check, and the bank is doing you the service of clearing it for you.  But they don't assume any risk of fraud from whomever wrote it.

Think about it this way.  If some guy in another country steals a check from someone and writes it out to you.  You deposit it, it goes through a couple of weeks of clearing and the bank credits your account.  But the person on whose account the check was written doesn't have any idea what happened until he gets his bank statement.  He then goes to his bank and tells them that the check was stolen and his bank returns it to your bank.  Since many people don't balance their bank statements immediately each month, days, weeks, and even months could go by before the fraud is discovered.  And you will be the one left holding the bag.

What it all boils down to is that you either need to trust the person you are accepting payment from completely, or you pay the fees to have Paypal, MC or VISA accept the risk for you.  Take into account the cost of doing business in another country before you enter into the transaction.

When I received money from a person outside the country I am paid in US funds and don't pay an exchange rate.  You received the money in US funds.  It works the same way with the credit card companies, travelers checks, and any transaction that must covert currency from one country to another.  Money is simply a commodity, and the handlers of the money get paid to do what they do.  

If we all converted to the Euro our problems would be over  :rolleyes:  
(seriously tongue in cheek!)

Whip,

Great explanation.  Thanks.  

From talking to a number of small business owners I had pretty much begun to suspect that PayPal, Visa, MC, etc. were pretty much a wash, but it's good to have confirmation from someone who actually knows.

Thanks again.

On big transactions use the gift option under the personal tab and no fees are charged the seller or the buyer   ;)  

Trap

I sold a bow to a guy in Hong Kong, he went to a western union site and sent the money it was in my town in about 2hrs. A pretty smooth transaction. I think they charge about 13.00. Not a bad way to go.

Just wanted to clear up Canadian money orders: If a Canadian sends a postal money order for payment, just be sure to cash it at any US postal office. Done this way, there are absolutely no fees whatsoever. Some US banks however charge a fee to process a postal money order. Works the same way for a US postal money order in Canada.

I have found the Postal money order to be the easiest and cheapest way to pay/recieve payment across the border with my American friends.

*-Bay no longer allows Buyers to accept US Postal money orders, or people who only pay in that manner (non-paypal) to bid without prior approval. I wrote to *-Bay last week complaining, after I was not allowed to bid on a .41 Mag Lee Loader kit (with 45 seconds left on the auction!), as I was not signed up for Pay Pal. If you contact the seller PRIOR to the auction ending, they can override and if they are willing (many are not, due the *-Bays "new" policy), you can complete the transaction with a Postal Money order. I have had 60 or so buys, with great feedback, since 03, and every single purchase was paid for with a PMO. Never had an issue, but I am being told I have to sign up for Paypal and pay them a fee for my "protection"? Why is paypal any safer than the US Postal system, pertaining to money orders?

  Many sellers will not accept PMO now, due to *-bays new rule. This is from the response I received from customer support the other day... "**** discourages our sellers to accept payments using money order because we want to make sure **** is safe."

I will be closing out my 'bay account in the near future and just buying what I want either new or on this site, as I want to help them keep "*-bay safe".

i was using paypal before it was renamed paypal.  

overall, it's a fine service that works for everyone.  

do not confuse paypal with fleabay - they are partners, but separate entities.  as a one time big user of the flea, i no longer trust it for personal one-on-one transactions.

pp fees have escalated and gotten more complicated as they're grown to become the online money giant they are today.  

the upshot of this topic is to research before making an out-of-normal transaction, so you can better understand what rules and fees apply.

the world ain't getting more simpler and traditional minded - you can take that to the bank.

I use paypal on a daily basis and have for years. Never any problems. You should always READ the terms and conditions before using any service.

You can't expect them to do the exchanges and transactions for free do you  8-)

I buy a lot of bows in the USA and with Paypal the seller has sure money in seconds,with  International money order it took almost 15 days and it costed me 75$ and 25$ to the seller to cash it.Excenge rate from a currency to another is not the one you look on the Internet or newspaper since Banks are involved or Credit Cards Companies.

Also paypal rates can be much cheaper than regular mastercard/visa/amex when you take cards that offer points or corporate cards. My company was getting charged the mastercard/visa rate of 2.5% and amex rate of 3.50% and then they would hit us up for other fees which turned out to be another 1.5% to 2% for point cards or corporate cards. Paypal will not bang you for these extra fees.

I have used Paypal for years, and find it very convenient. Banks have fees for transactions, too. Banks make mistakes, too. Ask the buyer to assume the fees (they run about 3%) and/or exchange rate. I think Paypal has always been clear about the fees for using their service. The ****thing is less clear, and more usurious.

I have sold a-lot of stuff on **** and now all they want you to use is Paypal. I know they are tied together so that is the reason.Paypal has to be a gold mine for what they charge to sell on ****. My biggest problem with it is they charge for the total transaction price that you receive from a customer. That is including the shipping price that the customer pays on the total price. So I don't charge any more to ship than it actually costs so I am paying for what the item brought plus the shipping cost. To bad Paypal doesn't have a public traded stock I would buy some.

Yeah guys but look at the coverage you get for a lousy 3%!!

MILLIONS of buyers. Compare that cost to a Sunday newspaper ad. I think it's a great value.

What it really comes down to for a business is whether or not the service and convenience for your customers will produce enough additional sales to more than cover the fees.  

If you are running a business and think you will not gain any additional business by offering to accept credit cards or Paypal, then there is no reason to offer them.  But I can't think of too many businesses that could get away with that.  Heck, most businesses can see that and realize offering more payment options leads to more sales.  Even fast food joints and vending machine companies have realized that accepting cards increases sales.

I went into a grocery store in Madison a few years ago to load up on supplies for an upcoming trip.  Loaded the cart to overflowing and went through the check out.  Handed the clerk my card and she told me they don't accept cards.  I don't normally even carry a checkbook with me and I don't use my credit card at an ATM.  I walked out of that store and left the groceries behind, and haven't been back to that store since.  The store owner saved himself the card fees, didn't he?

I wish all of my customers would just send me US dollars in envelopes.  No card fees, no risk of bad checks.  But if I made that a requirement I don't think I would be very busy.

I agree with Biggie and Whip, as a seller on the auction site and with over 10,000 transations, it's worth the fees.

I while back I noticed a charge on my paypal account that I know I didn't make! I filed a dispute and was denied a refund! I still use paypal but I no longer leave any amount of money in there.

using paypal is pretty much a no-brainer from every aspect.  like anything in this complicated, overly verbose world, keeping tabs on yer 'stuff' is mandatory.

Paypal is a winner,, esp. for the buyer.. Fast, safe and easy..!

QuoteOriginally posted by xtrema312:
I am not a fan.  Just can't give who knows who my bank account number.  And when xbay about forced it's use for all their sales, I had enough of both.

Double that

QuoteOriginally posted by John Nail:
 

QuoteOriginally posted by xtrema312:
I am not a fan.  Just can't give who knows who my bank account number.  And when xbay about forced it's use for all their sales, I had enough of both.

Double that [/b]

You do realize of course that every time you write a check to anyone that you are giving out your bank account number.  It's encoded on the bottom of every check you write.  Same goes for every time you use your credit card.  Personally, I worry more about the greaseball behind the counter at the gas station than I do about a big business like Paypal.

QuoteOriginally posted by Whip:
 

QuoteOriginally posted by John Nail:
 

QuoteOriginally posted by xtrema312:
I am not a fan.  Just can't give who knows who my bank account number.  And when xbay about forced it's use for all their sales, I had enough of both.

Double that [/b]

You do realize of course that every time you write a check to anyone that you are giving out your bank account number.  It's encoded on the bottom of every check you write.  I worry more about the greaseball behind the counter at the gas station than I do about a big business like Paypal. [/b]

None the less, if I contact the seller/service provider and tell them I don't do paypal, if they won't accept a cashier's check or US postal moneyorder, I shop elsewhere. I NEVER use a credit card for gasoline, ect. Just me I suppose, but it's my money.

these hi tech dayze, yer only purchasing safety is greenbacks in yer hand ... and knowing exactly who yer buying from.  hard row to hoe.

Your right about that Rob.  

As a side note, an interesting statistic that stuck with me from my banking days is that a very small percentage of people actually balance their checking accounts every month.  If you don't balance your statement you have absolutely no protection or recourse against fraud and mistakes.  Nobody at the bank is balancing your account for you.  That is your responsibility.  Trust me, mistakes and thefts do happen to customers of every bank in the country!  Sometimes it's crooks, sometimes it is honest errors.

Good financial management is your only real protection, both for checking accounts and credit cards.  Don't be lazy about your money and think it could never happen to you.

In the last few years, I have started to rate banks right up there with insurance companies, government mandated taxes and other things you have no control over.

I love paypal. Its an easy and safe way for me to buy things in foreign countries.
Pretty american trad bows for example   :)

Anyone have a 21 day "payments hold" placed on their PP account? Just got a notice from PP about this....not a happy camper here.

JL

Quote
both buyer and seller are protected.
 

Ya thats all fine and dandy on paper, but have you ever tried to recover fee's if something gets lost or scammed, from PayPal?  

I have and its a nightmare!    

Thanks Whip!   :readit:    :clapper:    I appreciate it!

I can only speak from my personal experiences using PP. I have never had an issue even when I was running $5000 per month through them. Few things I was told in advance by another PP user and a few opinions I developed over time:

1. Don't ever leave money in your PP account regardless of the amount. If you leave money in the account you are a potential target for scammers. I got in the habit of "sweeping out" my PP account after each and every transaction. When you have alot of "transactions" or you are a PowerSeller you are a target!

2. IMO don't deal with any overseas buyers or sellers under any circumstances. I had a period of time where my **** account was being "taken over" on a daily basis by someone overseas. This went on for a week. That experience impacted my selling and buying. I don't even answer questions asked by overseas buyers as when you do they can capture your email address and then they are off to the races. (The ONLY way I would deal with an overseas buyer would be someone here on TG that I "knew" quite well....IE: Felix)

3. I would also suggest you have seperate email addresses for your **** account and your PP account. this way there is no way anyone can get one and then tap into the other.

4. PP is upfront on their fees IMO and as a seller you have to take these fees into account when you set your asking price.

5. Both as a buyer and seller I like, and will pay, for the security and ease in using PP.

6. Money orders, as Whip pointed out, are subject to quite alot of scamming and they are just a pain in the neck. Don't like them and the effort it takes to get them to use for payment or the trouble they can cause when you go to cash them. The ONLY money orders to take IMO are US Postal Service MO because the post office will cash them for you on the spot. If you take MO to your bank they treat them like a check and you are subject to all those pitfalls.

Whip provided alot of facts that are very insightful. Each of us is free to use, or not use, any service or business out there. We can make choices that work for us. We don't live in a  "one size fits all" society. What works for one of us might not work for the next guy and that is OK and freedoms like this are what makes America great!

As a buyer, I learned that Paypal does not protect you when the seller receives the money and does not ship the entire product that you paid for. I had to pay twice the cost of the merchandise to attempt to get my money back from a dishonest individual. Lucky for me, my Credit card issuer became involved and paid me back for the purchase price as well as the other charges incurred. I closed my paypal account and will not use them anymore.

Got No Complaint about 'Em Yet! Knock Wood!!  :thumbsup:   They have done Right By Me!! Knock Wood Again!!  :thumbsup:    :archer:

Man reading through all this has my head spinning. I don't shop flea bay, don't use credit cards cept to order supplies I just can't get local which is very rare, etc if I don't have cash to buy something I ain't buying and never have ran onto someone who wouldn't take cash. Man I'm out of touch thought I was on a trad site. Man you dudes live a complicated life for sure. Good luck with that.

I actually had a great experience using them yesterday.  Here's the story:  My nephew had a model rocket starter kit on his christmas list, so I decided to order one for him as well as another rocket.  I placed this order well before Christmas, yet, you guessed it, it didn't show up.  Long story short, after numerous unanswered phone calls, voice messages and e-mails, I was pretty pissed.  Not only was I being ripped off, my poor little nephew still was without his gift from me.  Without no other course I contacted Paypal.  It was 10 minutes and I had my money refunded.  I hate to think about how long this would have taken had I not used them.  I'm sure like every company, it has it's good points and bad, but they really made a bad situation for me better.  By the way, my nephew got his rockets today (went and bought them locally), we put one together and launched it (with about a foot and a half of snow outside).  He loved it!

QuoteOriginally posted by LC:
Man reading through all this has my head spinning. I don't shop flea bay, don't use credit cards cept to order supplies I just can't get local which is very rare, etc if I don't have cash to buy something I ain't buying and never have ran onto someone who wouldn't take cash. Man I'm out of touch thought I was on a trad site. Man you dudes live a complicated life for sure. Good luck with that.

lc, it's a complicated world that gets more complicated every day.  wait'll ya see what the credit card companies are plotting.

if you use ANY means of payment for goods other than consuming a deal face-to-face with your seller/buyer with you forking over greenbacks, you take a risk.  it was this way in the old millennium and it's just carrying over in spades to this new millennium.  

yes, it takes a leap of faith, of sorts, but there are at least a few things you can do that might protect you - some have been outlined in previous replies within this thread.

i love it when someone sez they'll never give their credit card to a vendor on the phone or online and then happily fork it over to a 17 year old airhead sales clerk at the local wally world.

traditional?  heck, if yer feet are planted in this century, and yer not living off the land in some outback mountain or plains region, you ain't at all 'traditional'.  this ain't the 1800's, as far as i know ......

Lots of risks for sure(all over not just paypal).
You will pay someone for the service they provide and as far as paypal goes, They are huge therfore I think "on top" of the whole security thing. I guess the bottom line for me is this, use what works for you and PAY ATTENTION before during and after.
As far as being traditional and complicated...
LC, If you want to be in business or do business outside of your own city limits, you will start the complicated life. How much you want it to grow is your choice, but if you want to avoid it all together, good luck with that.
reducing our needs is something we all could take a leason in. I try eachday.
Chuck

Coincidently, I just started using paypal this week and thought...hope now I guess, that they are pretty safe. I did notice however that the exchange rate seems slanted to their advantage.

I live in an isolated community (Indian Reservation) in Northern Quebec and it is very handy for us to use that system.

Also, I am a hunter/bush guy that is new to hi tech computer stuff since we have only relatively recently been "connected" but yes, in this day and age, even we have gotten on the band wagon.

Let me give you another example: one of my native friends lives in a cabin in the bush with his family about 10 months of the year. He is a full time hunter/trapper/woodcutter and his wife is traditional in the Cree sense of the word. She is a woman of few words...and, unbelievably although English is her second language, and she has never lived elsewhere, she is on "facebook"!.

for what its worth...

had my pay pal account hacked once. they tried to withdraw a grand in some foreign country. I reccomend you NOT give them your bank account info, and put only enough in it to cover your purchase.

Rob, in reference to "CC Plotting", I had to have a Valve Stem replaced in my mower tire last Summer, and the Lady told me that by the time i used my Debit to pay for it, they add so many Fees and Crap on to the Transaction, she might as well have just given it to me.
 She Told me that it happens on the Big Purchases, and they are Losing Money by taking the Debit/Credit Cards!! Just Plain Sad!!

I have been a pretty much daily user of Paypal for about 8 years-likely more.
Everything-birthdays, christmas, auctions, weddings, you name it. Here, Canada, and several countries in Europe-never a problem.  
The most dangerous payment instrument is a check; you have no idea what crooks can do with them until you become a victim.

One more "detail" about PP. Yes, it is linked to a credit card and a bank account. The bank account linking helps in getting "paid" from PP and you become "verified" in their system.

I would strongly suggest setting up a completely seperate bank account and at a bank that is different from the one you have checking and savings account with.

As I said earlier in this thread: sweep out your paypal account after every transaction and have it transferred to  your bank account. Once it is in the account sweep it out of there too. That way you get your money fast from paypal, it gets to your bank in a few days, and then you can withdraw it ASAP. I don't like money sitting in my PP acount of my PP linked bank account just in case.....

I don't understand about having to give them your bank account info.

I bought some big game art. I gave them my credit card number and then they asked me to approve my purchase for the amount I paid plus the shipping. Is that a safe way of doing it?
I hope someone can enlighten me.

I think that this is a good topic and is relative since a lot of stuff we use for traditional hunting can be purchased on **** through the paypal system.

You don't have to give them your bank account number Ken.  But if you are a seller and receiving money that is the easiest way to get your money out of the Paypal account.  You can transfer the money you get directly to your bank account.
If you don't want to link to a bank account and still want to receive money you can either withdraw it with a check ($1.50 fee) or apply for a Paypal Debit card and use that card to spend the money.

Theres penalties for not giving them a bank account to link to. For instance you can not use paypal to pay for a purchase - they want a bank account - even tho you have money in the paypal account.

You can however use the debit card they give you. Ever since we got taken and paypal did little to nothing to help us - i will never link an account to it.

Also, we ran this once last year when we where powersellers on fe****. Buyer buys a product and paid for it with PP, we shipped it, gave feedback. Buyer stayed silent for about a week and then we got a call stating the item was damaged. It was shipped with insurance so we started a damaged package claim and needed them to do so at thier post office. They refused, contacted PP and said they wanted a refund. Buyer shipped empty box back to us, PP refunded thier money to them.... We where out the bow and the money and PP refused to do a darn thing about it. The funny thing was we opened the box at the postoffice infront of the clerk - PP still would not hear of it.... Oh and we took a neg feedbacka nd DSR hit that Fe**** would not step in on...

Sure PP protects the buyer first and seller second - no issues with that, but the system is real screwy.

Like i said, i use them when i need to - but PP is like anything with fangs - pay attention....

you don't need a pp account to buy from a pp vendor - just use a credit card.

pp war story ...

2 years ago a customer who had no pp account paid for my repair and refinishing work on a guitar with a cc.  

throughout the whole restoration process i sent the client images with a detailed reports of each progress step and also sent really good closeup images just before boxing and shipping via fedex insured to florida.  

he received the guitar and emailed he was very happy with the work.
 
less than a week later he emailed me with fuzzy pictures of 'damage' to the guitar body, filed a pp complaint, i answered the complaint with detail info/images, yet his credit card company took back all his dollars anyway.

pp sent ME an invoice for over $700, the cost of the job, while pp began their investigation on my behalf.  i sent pp the money.  

three full months later i got an email from pp saying my account was now credited the $700+ bucks.  seems pp fought with the credit card company, won and got them to reverse their decision.  at least in part, the reversal was due to me keeping the client in the loop with emails and images of the work progress.  

there's good and not so good in everything.

"traditional? heck, if yer feet are planted in this century, and yer not living off the land in some outback mountain or plains region, you ain't at all 'traditional'. this ain't the 1800's, as far as i know ...... "

Come spend a week with me Rob, life aint' got to be no harder than you make! Man I'm even surprised George has given into this maddness!

You just have to know who you are dealing with too. Its hard to do on nickel and dime stuff but if you sell something for $50 or more you should always use tracking on it the item you mail. ALWAYS insure the item because you can provide tracking info to pay pal if the buyer has not gotten the package. If you mail something without tracking and the buyer claims not to have gotten it and you have not tracking they will get a refund. The burden of proof lies on the shipper and not on the buyer.