So i hear all this about EFoC n UFoc. And to a greenhorn its all sooo confuseing. I dont kno how u calculate it n all. My draw is 24 1/2 ins, so im shootin 44lbs. I shoot trad only 600 shafts(full length) with 125 grains heads.
Im starin to really study this FoC thing. Sooo im thinkin about really bumpin up the weight i got up front, 200 or possibly 300 grains. Seems as though this would be too weak though. I mean, my head up front would be heavier than the actual shaft. How do all yall calculate FoC. Do yall worry about it?? Do u just figure it out when u bare shaft ur arrows?? This stuff is all so confuseing.
Hunter Smith.
if yer new to trad archery, forget anything to do with foc - for now. read and heed this ...
trad newbies - tackle (http://www.tradgang.com/docs/newbies.html)
Listen: Do not read the Ashby Report. As a new traditional archer you have lots of fundamentals to understand before being so confused. Listen to Rob and click on the trad newbies - tackle thingy 8^).
Look ive been shootin for 4 years. Maybe im not fresh Fish but im still in the beginning stages. Ive killed deer n piles of small game. Ive ALSO wounded a few animals as well. All im tryin to do by readin the report n askin ?'s is advance n knowledge and become a better bowhunter. If yall dont want new people on here askin ?'s, maybe yall should make a policy about it or something. You cant get all upidy about somebody wantin to learn n get better.
Hunter Smith.
K.I.S.S. keep it simple starting out thats what I did and still do.Otherwise you feel like your having lunch with the guys from MIT
He can read all he wants but he needs to get started in a simple manner. Dr. Ashby's report is pretty specific in what it calls for and it has nothing to do with learning shooting form and getting basics ingrained. The gent is admittedly confused, and if I thought he would gain anything from that report, I would tell him to go ahead and read it. Fact is, he will be bypassing important ingredients for basic tuning, and learning technique. He will have lots of time to get involved in those things as he grows in the sport. Nothing "uppity" about it. It's nuts and bolts.
Get your form down and then start worring about all this other confusing talk.
hs, listen to what george sez, he's steering you right. don't get caught up in the 'gpp - foc' thing, that's a great place to go AFTER you can shoot consistently at hunting distances without even thinking. gotta crawl 'fore ya walk, bud.
I agree, George and Rob. Hunter, you just got A-1 advice. Hemingway once said "there are some things which cannot be learned quickly, and time, which is all we have must be paid heavily for their acquiring" ..... the bow and arrow does teach that, for sure!
Rob and George nailed it on the head. Buy a good book and a video or two on proper form and arrow / bow tuning. Work to get what you have tuned and yourself shooting with good form. Once that comes together you can jump into FOC and other such archery subjects.
There are really two things that lead to success; one is accuracy and shot placement- and the other is a sharp broadhead.
You can be perfect with FOC and accuracy and all that; but when it comes down to the moments after the shot- your depending on- hitting where you want; and the broadhead being sharp.
Sharp does not mean you buy stainless steel heads and shoot into a foam target until your good; and then go hunting with them; or even shooting ONCE after the heads are sharp.
Sharp is a responsibility over all else.
If you need help with that- we can help. FOC and all the things we say about flinging arrows does not mean anything if your not shooting sharp broadheads.
We all know that here; but often new people do just not know: the drastic importance of it.
In defense of HC, and being a newb myself. The first arrows I shot through my 45#'er were heavy cedars set up for a #55 bow at Dwyer's. I am now shooting lighter carbons with a 100 grain tip and I think I was more stable to learn with a heavier arrow. I could be wrong.
I am going to move up to the 5575 arrow and weaken it with 100 grain insert and 125 - 150 heads. It is a good match according to Stu's calculator. And, myself, I'd rather learn on a slower arrow to watch the flight.
Tim
Seems a might bold to ask for advice then call those who give it "upidy". I'll take the risk in being called "upidy" and tell you straight up that if you aren't willing to be humble you'll miss DECADES of the best advice you can get on the subject of archery. There are MASTERS here, and almost any question you can think of has been answered to the point of exhaustion - use the search button and give thanks - or "button up". Respectfully.
And, as Northern said, I don't know where I'd be without this forum and all of the private help that was sent my way. I wouldn't even know what the difference between too stiff and too weak was - lol.
It is amazing at just how much I've learned in about one month of being on this forum.
Tim
there are four aspects of learning trad archery for a newbie - tackle, setup, form and your mental outlook.
the tackle part is the easiest:
* low holding weight bow - must be shake and tremor free at a 3 second full draw hold
* carbon or aluminum arrows - the arrows are far more important than the bow in terms of consistency. your newbie form consistency will get mixed along with inconsistent arrows and you won't really know where the fault lies. i mentioned alums, but carbons are absolutely best.
setting up bows and arrows:
* you WILL need one-on-one help from a coach or seasoned archer in order to set the bow's brace height and build arrows that will fly true. you can sure try to do it on yer own, but you will waste time and money, and some folks just never will get it right.
good form as it applies to your physique:
* a coach or pro mentor will get you started within an hour and eliminate bad habits from the get-go as well as saving huge lumps of time and money.
the mental game:
* lots will depend on yer ability to focus and stay focused, and listen to your mentor. do not practice when yer head's not in the game, that's a waste of time which could set your progress back.
finally, if it ain't fun or challenging, why bother doing it? :D
sad to say but i beleive the california hunter has given the best advice....i have shot a recurve bow for 4 years with no help or advice from anybody, and have learned more in the last 3 months from these forums than those 4 years. so my advice is stop typing and read what these guys have to say.....
I don't remotely doubt Dr. Asby's research, and I get the single bevel bit as well, but...
Don't even worry about the maxxed out FOC & heavyweight broadhead bit at this point. The biggest tuning concern for you is simply to make sure your arrow is properly spined for your bow set up, so that it flies well. Then enjoy learning to shoot Trad.
I can report from first hand experience that a relatively lightweight carbon or alum arrow (say, 500-550 grains total weight) that flies well from your bow, topped with a sharp good quality standard bevel broadhead of 125-150 grains (for example a Magnus or Zwickey 2 blade, readily available for around $27 a half dozen) with an FOC of 10%-15%, launched from a recurve of 45-55#, will bury to the fletching or pass through a broadside deer's chest at 20-22 yards virtually every time...
QuoteOriginally posted by NDTerminator:
I don't remotely doubt Dr. Asby's research, and I get the single bevel bit as well, but...
Don't even worry about the maxxed out FOC & heavyweight broadhead bit at this point. The biggest tuning concern for you is simply to make sure your arrow is properly spined for your bow set up, so that it flies well. Then enjoy learning to shoot Trad.
I can report from first hand experience that a relatively lightweight carbon or alum arrow (say, 500-550 grains total weight) that flies well from your bow, topped with a sharp good quality standard bevel broadhead of 125-150 grains (for example a Magnus or Zwickey 2 blade, readily available for around $27 a half dozen) with an FOC of 10%-15%, launched from a recurve of 45-55#, will bury to the fletching or pass through a broadside deer's chest at 20-22 yards virtually every time...
right on, brother of the stick 'n' string! :thumbsup:
QuoteOriginally posted by NDTerminator:
I don't remotely doubt Dr. Asby's research, and I get the single bevel bit as well, but...
Don't even worry about the maxxed out FOC & heavyweight broadhead bit at this point. The biggest tuning concern for you is simply to make sure your arrow is properly spined for your bow set up, so that it flies well. Then enjoy learning to shoot Trad.
I can report from first hand experience that a relatively lightweight carbon or alum arrow (say, 500-550 grains total weight) that flies well from your bow, topped with a sharp good quality standard bevel broadhead of 125-150 grains (for example a Magnus or Zwickey 2 blade, readily available for around $27 a half dozen) with an FOC of 10%-15%, launched from a recurve of 45-55#, will bury to the fletching or pass through a broadside deer's chest at 20-22 yards virtually every time...
ND:
Here is where my "newbness" is going to prob. get me in trouble, so I apologize in advance - lol.
I have some 3555 with 100 grain tips coming out of my 45# bow. They seem to fly well, and at 8 - 10 yards actually "zip" to the target.
Went I went to Dave Dywer's ( a custom bowyer) to set up our inexpensive Samick's, all he had was heavier arrows spined for his heavier bow. They shot well and I just felt much more comfortable with the "slower" arrow. Seemed to not "jump" so much when shooting.
I had one day this week where things "clicked" for me. I backed up to 15 yards and could actually see my arrow "arching" a bit and started to visualize watching that arc and low and behold, I started shooting really well - respectively for my level.
What I am getting to is this, if according to Stu's calculator, I can go to a 5575 with a 100 grain insert and a 150 grain broadhead, 30" arrow - wouldn't it produce a more quiet, less jumpy arrow that may be easier for a "newb" to learn from?
Right now those 3555's are at 29" and shooting well with only 100 grains up front. As my form improves, I think then the higher speeds would be possibly more beneficial. Right now, one of the best things for me has been to be able to see the arc of my arrow, and I don't have much with these real light arrows.
Thanks for any observations and let me know if I am totally off base.
Tim
HS, Its not that hard. I think we tend to make it more difficult than it really is. To answer your question, you will need to figure out what broadhead weight you want to start off with. With your draw weight I think 200 grains up front would be reasonable. I think you will need to try several arrows with different spine to see what fly's best with your target weight. Probably would start out with some 500 spine full length arrows and just start shooting to see how they fly. If they start off weak start cutting them down a 1/4 in at a time. Make sure you read and learn as much about tuning arrows as you can, if you need to. That's my 2 cents. Good luck.
Gilbert
THANK YOU amicus. Thank you sooo much. Thas all i wanted was some opinions.
HC: My wife shoots a 45# recurve and I make her arrows with 200 grains up front. To achieve good arrow flight for her she shoots the Beman MFX shafts (the skinny ones like the Axis) in the 500 spine. They are 27" long with a 100 grain brass insert and 100 grain Phantoms or Razorcaps. She gets pass thrus on the big game she shoots. I think 200 grains up front is all you need for now and by what I read about your set up you will probably need to go up to the 500 spine shafts. Hope that helps.
Inn8, not to sound too much like the rural ND hick I am, but I've found there's more than one way around my barn. I'm not going to tell you that lightweight arrows are better than heavyweights because they aren't. There is a place & argument for both.
I'm just saying 500-550 grain alum & carbon arrows will shoot & kill just peachy as long as you match the spine closely to your bow.
There is a direct correlation between weight & speed and weight & how quiet your bow shoots. Lighter arrows are faster & noisier, heavier arrows are slower & more quiet. You have to decide what balance fits your pistol. I like the speed my modern recurves shoot a lighter arrow and so accept a certain level of noise as part of the bargain.
I like alums (and to a lesser extent carbons) as they are easy to work with & tune broadheads on, and it's easy to get the spine & weight I want with economic standard sized shafts, components, and 125-145 grain points/broadheads.
QuoteOriginally posted by NDTerminator:
Inn8, not to sound too much like the rural ND hick I am, but I've found there's more than one way around my barn. I'm not going to tell you that lightweight arrows are better than heavyweights because they aren't. There is a place & argument for both.
I'm just saying 500-550 grain alum & carbon arrows will shoot & kill just peachy as long as you match the spine closely to your bow.
There is a direct correlation between weight & speed and weight & how quiet your bow shoots. Lighter arrows are faster & noisier, heavier arrows are slower & more quiet. You have to decide what balance fits your pistol. I like the speed my modern recurves shoot a lighter arrow and so accept a certain level of noise as part of the bargain.
I like alums (and to a lesser extent carbons) as they are easy to work with & tune broadheads on, and it's easy to get the spine & weight I want with economic standard sized shafts, components, and 125-145 grain points/broadheads.
ND,
No more of hick than I in good ol' western WI - lol.
I guess what I was saying and I think you hit on it, if I use Stu's calculator and try to make a 3555 500 grains - the dynamic spine is way out of whack for a 45# @ 28", 28" recurve that is center cut.
If I did a 30" 3555, with 150 grain tip, 100 gr. brass insert, 5" fletch it gives me a dynamic spine of 35.5 with a total weight of 529 grains. The calculator tells me the bow is putting out 52.3 dynamic spine. Now maybe the calculator isnt real world, but I am too new to even know other than Stu saying the two should be within 2# of each other.
If you move up to a stiffer 5575 with the same inserts you get a dynamic spine difference of less than 2# and an arrow weight of 550 grains.
I think that is why I prob. liked the heavier arrows at Dwyers, much more quiet and seemed to come off the bow a bit better for me.
Hmm..that ended up longer than I thought it would - lol.
Tim
I should note that it looks like you can get a good DS from Stu's calculator if you go to a total of 175 up front between BH and insert giving you a total weight of 450 grains.
It just looks like if you try to push that light of an arrow over 500 grains the "Almighty" calculator will say it won't be spined right. Again, whether or not the calculator translates to real world is another story. It sure sounds like people sure like Stu's work though.
Tim
i sure do wish there was a *relatively* easy way to figure out what X carbon shaft will fly great out of what Y bow that's used by Z archer. imo, there ain't none, simply because of the nature of carbons and the 'wild card' addition of the archer that's shooting said carbons outta said bow.
all that said, carbons are well worth the efforts and money, 'cause when it all comes together it's just so beautiful a thing.
again and for me, the carbon formula starts with much lighter spine stiffness than the charts portray (for a given holding weight and arrow length), at least a few hundred grains up front (NO, i'm not talking about foc), and shoot for a minimum arrow mass of 10gpp.
reread and adhere to the above paragraph and you'll be on the right path to carbon success. BUT, this is assuming you already know howta shoot and your form is solidifying well! for a rank NEWBIE, i'd advise to stick with alums - the easton chart is as good as it can get for picking the right arrow numbers for yer bow and you, and alums are more forgiving of spine.
Rob,
I think you hit the bullseye with two of your points (to paraphrase):
#1 If it ain't challenging or fun, why bother doing it.
#2 Assuming you already know how to shoot the bow and have good solid form.
That's puttin' it in a "nutshell" for sure! Just my opinion. Thanks for all your help.
Rob:
I've been shooting for a week now so I think I got the form thing down now - don't ya think?
Of course, just kidding. I bought the wrong weight bow to start with and have all carbons, but as mr. sable said, if it ain't challenging or fun, why bother doing it.
Tim
Well i like carbons too. I like shootin those TIGHT groups in practice. I wanna shoot as heavy a point up front as i can get by with. But they do make a little more noise, and their sooo light its hard for me to get a good heavy arrow. So ill have to add weight tubes to em to make 10 grains per inch and im worried the tubes will rattle around inside em.
I started out with wood, killed the first deer with wood. The groups still hold together really well just not as tight as carbons. The questions come in herds while the solid calculated descisions come in a trickle.
Hunter Smith.
Hunter Smith.
QuoteOriginally posted by inn8hunter:
Rob:
I've been shooting for a week now so I think I got the form thing down now - don't ya think?
Of course, just kidding. I bought the wrong weight bow to start with and have all carbons, but as mr. sable said, if it ain't challenging or fun, why bother doing it.
Tim
oh yeah, for sure yer ready for that elk hunt. :rolleyes: :D :wavey:
I am sure that I can benefit from going back to the beginning and starting as if it's all new to me. It never hurts to try to be better and I already know there's a bunch of room for improvement.
God bless,Mudd
I can't imagine there'd be anyone willing to mentor this ole goat.