Getting ready to get a blood trailing dog. I know there are many usefuel breeds out there, and I've used a lot of them, but I'm trying to narrow it down to a dog specifically made to blood trailing. Any thoughts on the two mentioned above?
My wirehair does alright, but he isn't too fond of the cold around here...aka I have to drag him outside to do his business if its below 40 degrees.
can't go wrong with dachsunds. they're built to have their nose to the ground.
He's a short hair, I believe, but there is a thread going at the moment about a little 5mth old dachsund who is a great little tracker. Thread name has "tracking lesson" in it, if you need to search. Good luck and keep us informerd of your choice.
I just bought a Wirehair puppy and he loves the cold and snow. Haven't yet had him on a trail but his ancestry has been mentioned on here as one of the best lines. Looking forward to his first tracking job.
Just a couple thoughts from someone new to blood tracking with dogs (and have been doing a bunch of research in the last few years leading up to our pup).
First, there is nothing magic about wirehair dachshunds. Depending on where you go in Europe the popularity of wire or smooth coat with hunters varies. My wife is French (eastern France, near Germany) and her thought is that the recent popularity of wirehairs is, in large part, driven by the pet market, not necessarily the hunters. The key to getting a good working dachshund (teckel) is the breeding, not the coat.
Keep in mind also that the Germans do not view teckels as a blood tracking specialist, but as a general purpose hunting dog (remember, Dachshund means "badger dog" in German) - they are used for a variety of hunting - small game (rabbit), blood tracking, and ground work (fox or badger) - although many in the US (myself included) are interested primarily in blood tracking. Teckels also make great housedogs, although I would say that Oskar is pretty high maintenance compared to our other dogs due to his intelligence and ability to manipulate situations to suit his wants.
I don't know anything about the bavarian bloodhounds, except I have heard that they are 1. very pricey 2. you need to be careful with the breeding of dogs in the US and 3. They are more of a specialist that teckels (don't know the truth of all this, just what I've heard).
R
And as to the cold - our pup has tracked for hours in temps of 5-10F with no problem (of course that isn't COLD compared to Montana!). According to our breeder the hunting drive of the dog will dictate what temps he will tolerate more than his size or coat.
Dogs in general seem to have trouble on scents below about 10F in my experience (mainly beagle experience) - but others may have different experiences than this.
R
I haven't been able to convince my wife, but sure would love to have a dog that can do blood trails and rabbits. Can they really be effective at both? Wouldn't they get distracted from a blood trail if they ran across a hot rabbit scent?
Blood hounds in Europe are a specialty forester's dog and a handful for non professional dog handlers. I would class them with Jag terriers as a tough beast to train and handle. My first choice for tracking dog would be a tekel, next a Jack Russel from blood work lineage (look more like beagle shape), then Jags. If you plan to hunt birds you could go with a versatile large bread like Munsterlander or Drathaar (German Wire Hair).
Hard to beat a good slow working basset ... have worked them for 40 years on everything from pheasants to blood trails
Joe
Our breeder hunts rabbits, coons, possums and blood tracks with her teckels. I'm not going to let Oskar fool with rabbits for a while, but from what I understand should not cause a problem. Heck, one of our breeder's weiner dogs retrieves ducks for a guy in Michigan (yep, I've seen pictures).
As to the Basset - we were pretty serious with some guys in the AHBA (American Hunting Basset Assoc) about getting a pup. As a long time basset owner (we have a 13 yr old geriatric male) I can say it definitely takes a special person to truly appreciate (or is it tolerate?) a basset in the house. Were I going to get serious about a basset I'd look into the AHBA or some other route to be SURE to get a hunting bred basset and not a show bred couch dog....remember "Only buy a basset hound from a guy wearing bib overalls!"
Ryan
I think they taste about the same, so no matter what you choose, you're well catered for ^^
Ryan,you are absolutely right regarding bassets. We have owned a few over the years and some were excellent trackers. The ones that could hunt were little or no cost. When we spent $ we ended up with a couch dog.
I bred my wire haired Dachshund Tilly this summer and the pups are now 4 months old. She was bred to the Jeanneney's number one tracking dog Billy. John Jeanneney is the author of Tracking Wounded Deer and started Deer Search in New York state.
Tilly has a smooth wire coat which is great to keep clean but she does get cold once the tracking is over. The wire hairs tend to like the cold and snow. I bred her primarily to get a wire haired pup for myself.
Just as a side note, the the pups were tracking deer hide and blood at six weeks. Plus two of the pups have already tracked bow shot deer at three months of age.
Finally the great thing about a tracking dogs is they teach and show you what a Poor Tracker you really are. It is as much fun tracking with a dog as it is hunting...for me anyway :) Doc
Tilly
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v110/tippit/Tilly/Tilly08006.jpg)
Billy
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v110/tippit/Tilly/BillyTilly003.jpg)
Pup @ 7 weeks
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v110/tippit/Tilly/Pupsat7weeks012.jpg)
(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f143/4runr/104_1726.jpg)
Tiller's Traditional Tanner,
out of the above mentioned Tilly and Billy!
A trained dog associates the task at hand with the collar the command and if it on or off a lead. Off lead beeper collar = birds, rabbits. On lead with tracking collar = blood tracking.
Al
I agree completely with Ryan regarding bassets ..
stay away from "show strains" ... go with good hunting stock and you won't be disappointed.
We have a wirehair that doesn't like to be outside if it's cold and no ones with him. He doesn't seem to mind if he is trailing and someone is with him. He is a one person dog though. He likes all of the family but loves my daughter. He mopes when she's away at college.
Cash is the pup I kept out of the Tilly/Billy litter. Four months old today...she loves snow, people especially kids, and anything deer! I just took these at lunch today...Doc
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v110/tippit/Cash/Cash4Months009.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v110/tippit/Cash/Cash4Months002.jpg)
Tippit, Great looking dogs! I can see they got character and personality. I'm impressed.
Prarrie Dog
Doc,
That really is a great looking dog. I'm going down to AL next week for a deer hunt and my buddy down there also has a dachsund he purchased from John and has no regrets. Can't wait to see that little bugger in action!
Thanks for the input boys...
Erik
Tippit,
Love your dogs. I've been feeling blue today and they made me smile, Thanks for sharing.
Dan
Pluses on wirehaired:
Great indoor pets.
Small size is large advantage - you can work them on a lead instead of them working you plus you can pick them up and carry them. I find this to be very helpful when mine is on a trail but I have found no blood. I'll carry him back to the start and see if he goes the same route.
Not practical with a larger dog.
Another vote for wirehaired Dauchs.
Here's a pup pic from Tippit's post above (Tilly and Billy litter). Beau tracked his first deer at 3 months. Today he is 4 months old. Not that it matters, but he was the "runt" of the litter.
(http://i244.photobucket.com/albums/gg20/lsurtees/IMG_0119-2.jpg)
(http://i244.photobucket.com/albums/gg20/lsurtees/IMG_0118.jpg)
Larry,
Beau was never the runt of the litter as the litter was quite uniform. He was just the last one to go...but one of the first to have a track to his credit. Beau has already made Tilly & I proud :thumbsup: Plus he is the spitting image of Tilly!
The one great thing about Beau is you'll never have to comb or cut burrs out of his coat...kinda like water off a duck's back.
Just a side note All of the Tilly/Billy pups ended up in bowhunting families. I was going to spay Tilly after her first litter...but I'm re-thinking that now with the noses the pups are exhibiting :) Doc
Here is a pix of my pup Koa also sired by Billy and Beau pictured above from the Tilly/Billy litter.
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b175/CLSurt/P1000356.jpg)
What looks like sharing ended very quickly after I snapped this photo. Koa became very protective over the deer only allowing me and the hunter near it.
I had to tie him up so Beau could take a turn chewing on the deer.
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b175/CLSurt/P1000365.jpg)
Beau taking his turn all the while keeping an eye on Koa who is just out of the pix trying to get back to the deer.
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b175/CLSurt/IMG_2246.jpg)
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b175/CLSurt/IMG_2259.jpg)
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b175/CLSurt/IMG_2260.jpg)
This is Koa having his way in another find. Koa's prey drive really turned on with this deer. After loading it on the cart I basically dragged him out of the woods as he would not let go of the deer.
Here is a website for Bavarian Bloodhounds. Ken is very knowledgeable and will answer and questions you may have.
http://www.hillockkennels.com/
Also Jolanta and John Jeanneney are WHD experts.
http://www.born-to-track.com/
Thanks Chris,
I've spoken with both gentleman at length and obviously they are great resources. At this time it is very hard to get a Bavarian dog unless one wanted to get one from Poland for about $3,600...Ouch!
I think just for the ease of getting a dog (among many other reasons), the little rascals might be the way to go.
Looking forward to more pics.
Erik
Erik,
Ouch is right!
I had one of those Jeanneney dogs. All I would say about that is be prepared for a handful. If you don't have a lot of experience training hunting dogs, you might bite off more than you can chew. And they are not really good family dogs. They need lots of exercise, constant training and reinforcement. They must be taken on hunts, field trials, etc. to be fully mastered. I.e., if you have a life or kids, etc., such a dog may be a little too much. Those people know their dogs, but if you don't want to devote yourself completely to your dog, you may want to reconsider.
Don,
You mentioned that they don't make suitable family dogs, can you please speak a bit more about this?
I'm hoping for a dual-purpose dog, as I know my 13 year-old and wife will probably want to love it up constantly. Are you strictly referring to the additional time/effort in training the dog and keeping him sharp?
It really seems to me that the WHD is a good call, with limited downside.
I think Don's observation is the little secret some owners of working Teckels don't mention...they are definitely not your Grandma's dachshund. Ours is just entering his "teenager period" and is becoming quite a handful. These dogs are EXTREMELY intelligent - Oskar was doing things at 8-10 weeks old that my wife and I just had to shake our heads at...and we are dog people. I've grown up with everything from an Eskimo spitz to rat terriers to basset hounds and this pup takes the cake. My wife is French from the French/German border area and grew up with 4 different teckels...she warned me, but all I can say is WOW! Don't get me wrong, Oskar is a real buddy and is making us a great house dog, but these are for experienced dog folks and someone, as Don says, willing to put in the time. Oskar is the most manipulative animal I've ever met - you have to stay on top of discipline or you will get plowed over by one of these guys. Not an issue if you are prepared, but be ready! Also realize that to develop your pup into a blood tracker takes LOTS of time. These dogs instinctively take to it, but to do it right is a real commitment.
Ryan
NOT all Teckels are like that! Tilly is a Jeckel & Hide in that she is a great family dog and incredible tracking/working dog. The Jeanneney's Billy has the same temperament even though he is a kennel dog. I bred her specifically to Billy for their temperaments and their tracking ability. All the pups seem to have the same personality and tracking ability too.
Tilly is a completely spoiled house dog in that she sleeps in bed (not that I recommend that that in my veterinary practice...Do as I say NOT as I Do :) She is the kindest dog with children & infants of any dog we have had including our Golden Retrievers. BUT on track she is all business. If you take too much time marking a blood sign she'll come back and bite your leg and when she finds the deer...it is Her deer! I won't let anyone but me take her off the find unless they have Kevlar gloves on :biglaugh:
I see a lot of American type Dachshunds in my practice and a majority of they are one person dogs. If you are looking for a hunting/family Dachshund be sure to check out both parents disposition first...Doc
Koa has the same temperament as Tilly and Billy, his sire.
As with any hunting dog it should be understood that most require training in order to learn and become proficient. Yes the instinct is there and some even require little to no training but the majority do.
I guess I was lucky in getting Koa as he is one heckuva companion and tracker.
Don't get me wrong, our pup does not have a "temperament" issue. We aren't dealing with a bad dog - ours sleeps in the bed too :) and is a sweety and a real buddy. What we ARE dealing with is a VERY intelligent animal with a STRONG prey/hunting drive. This translates to 1. An animal that needs a job to do or will get bored and 2. An animal that will test the limits (ie manipulate the situation to try to get what he wants).
I think it would be a mistake not to be honest with a prospective owner that these guys are not bred to be lap dogs, but hunting dogs....with all the plusses and minuses that go with that.
R
Thanks everyone, Hess I apologize if I took a bit of a side-road turn on your thread, great information for a prospective WHD owner.
Since I am self-employed I will have adequate time to really work mine and I will have some great resources available as well.
Buckster,
No worries here, I love hearing opinions...I've been around working dogs my entire life (pointers and hounds) so I'm very familiar with those at least. I've been gearing up for a blood tracker in that I've got lots of deer and elk blood and organs, gearing up for the arrival of out new dog, whatever it turns out to be. I love working with them and they all present there own challenges.
My buddy Will has a dog from John that reminds me of Doc's dogs. Friendly most of the time and all business the other. I hope I am that fortunate or I'll drive out from MT and steal theirs!
Thanks fellas
Thanks Hess and great post!
I have a jagdterrier and she is very much like what others have said about their teckels in that she is a hunting dog and needs exercise and is protective of her finds. She can also be destructive if not given the attention she wants. I have. been out more money than I will admit repairing her damage.
Here's Roscoe, he's great with kids and loves to track. I got him from John, this is his second season.
(http://i898.photobucket.com/albums/ac186/wickles/P1010781.jpg)
We have one of the Jeanneney's dogs. Her name is Georgia and she has become the favorite family pet. She is would sit in you lap all day if you would let her and is great with the kids. She was the runt of the litter. Georgia is an unbelievable tracker. Everyone who sees her work wants to buy her or get one just like her. If you want a dog that is a good family pet and a great tracker, I would call John Jeanneney.
How good would a Beagle be at blood tracking.
For those wondering about the Jeanneney's thoughts on the temperament of working teckels, and some of the issues an unprepared owner may face, you might check out the link below. The last paragraph is exactly the point I'm trying to make.
http://www.born-to-track.com/dachshund-companion.htm
R
My hunting buddy has both breeds, he says terrain and geographic location is a big consideration as both of these breeds are specialists with obvious strengths and weaknnesses.
I am thinking of getting a Dachshund for a pet.Would a miniature Dachshund possibly work out as a tracking dog? It would be great to have one as a pet and also be able to use one as a tracking dog should the need ever arise.I know the dog would need to be trained.
I have a Half Toy Rat Terrier & Dachshund I found out it's a hybrid breed of dog called Toy rat Doxie. When the weather gets warmer I'm going to take her out to go after tree rats and hopefully wabbits. Now I think I'll look in to getting Her to Blood trail, too..
Might also look at the Jagdterrier. I may be getting me a pup to train also.
Still researching.
Junglecat, my smooth hair mini Daschund is an awesome tracker and a great companion dog. Two recoveries this year.
wingman,
How old is your dog and was it hard to train? Were either of its parent trained as a tracking dog? Sorry for all the questions.
Junglecat, my dog is four. She had her first trail last year, the trail was 18 hours old and she stayed on it for approx. 300 yds after which we lost all blood, we later realized that the deer was not fataly hit. This year she had three trails, two of which ended with dead deer, the one she did not recover was also seen alive later in the season. JC I wish that I could say that I am some sort of great dog trainer but that is just not the case, my dog Penny is just an extremely gamey little hound with an innate abaility to track game, she has had absolutely no training, however that will change this spring as I have a nice collection of hide and blood in my freezer. Her parents where just really sweet companion dogs, actually she doesnt even have a pedigree as her fathers papers burned in a barn fire, so in a sense she's my little mutt. I think with a little polishing up she will be an excellent bloodtrailing dog.
Thanks wingman.Your comments actually make me feel better.I presently dont have a dog.I am thinking of getting one.I have actually went as far as to look for pups and have located one today if it hasnt been sold since I received an email from the owner earlier today.Pups are supposed to be available next week. I just have to make my mind up.Any dog I get would mainly be a companion dog as well.Thanks for your help.
Awesome buddy, nothing cuter than a baby doxy, enjoy.
QuoteOriginally posted by Panzer II:
How good would a Beagle be at blood tracking.
My beagle did very well while I was training her. We don't do much training at all anymore. Work, family and everything else gets in the way. Mine had a great nose/instinct. Only downfall was me and time nothing to do with her.
I am no expert... but I can agree it takes a lot of time to train. I think that goes with all types of training but my experience has only been in blood trailing.
Now when we only trail every so often she still does very well.
Good luck with whatever you choose!
Allegan Archer,
It's great to keep them going with their training...But some dogs don't care about following a trail that you put down. Tilly pays no attention to the deer blood and hide trails I put down for her pup Cash. She is 4 1/2 and hasn't been interested in those type of trails for the past couple of years.
Just take her out into the woods on a fresh deer trail and you better hang on :) I've talked to John & Jolanta Jeanneney about this. They also have some dogs like that. They aren't any good for trials but Great for hunting...Doc
Here's another question for you tracking dog people. I'd love a dog that could track deer and also run rabbits on the side. Is there any way to train the dog so that it can be trusted outside without being on a chain? Seems like it would be just about impossible to keep them in the yard (and out of the road) if they like to run rabbits.
Maybe some info that will help out:
For mini's, non "hunting" bloodline etc. There is a guy in Michigan that has found a bunch of deer with his mini-longhaired dachshund. Search "scouttracker blog" or something like this and you'll find him.
For training - we aren't experts on this for sure, but what is working really well for us is a combination of John's book and our breeder's advice. Training to blood track wasn't difficult, just took time, dedication, and advice from the above sources to avoid common pitfalls. Check out the borntotrack.com blog. Jolanta just posted an entry about our Oskar last week. Keep in mind that YOUR experience blood trailing without a dog is key as well. My breeder thinks we are progressing so rapidly with our pup, in part, because of our extensive experience blood tracking without a dog. (If I only had a dollar for every hour spent on my hands and knees looking for blood over the years..... :) ). The dog and handler TEAM is the key to finding deer, ALL the experts agree on that one.
Joe, I'll PM you some new information....
R
Joe,
The Jeanneneys use there Dachshunds to do both. I have no interest in hunting rabbits...mainly cause we don't have any around here :(
The radio shock collars work great to keep them in your yard. Home Depot as a unit for under $200 that will even keep Tippit (our Border Collie) in the yard! No tying up or fence involved...Doc
So when is Tilly going to be due? :saywhat:
(Still have a sales job to do on Irene ;) :pray: )
Whip,
If Doc does decide to breed Tilly again I know of a little male that would be up to the task :readit:
Guys, what Ryan has stated is completely spot on. These dogs bred from hunting stock are NOT your typical Dacshund. They are hunters. Their abilities can at times seem almost too much to believe, but they are high maintenance dogs that require alot of work. Anyone interested in getting one of these little guys needs to keep this in mind. I had one from Laurel too, that was bred from a Jeanneny dog. His name was Snuffer and he was an excellent tracker, as well as a great buddy. Unfortunately, and accident occured where he got out of my front door (the front yard was not fenced) and was struck by a car. I was heartbroken and I miss him alot. At that time, I was not married and I had two roomates. Between the 3 of us, there was nearly always someone at home, which helped tremendously with training. Snuffer never ever bit anyone, but he was VERY possesive when he found a deer. Like was mentioned above, I never let anyone other than myself try to get him away from the deer after he found it.
These dogs are very intelligent, which is not normally thought to be true when thinking of dacshunds bred to be simply pets. I'll give you an example. I trained Snuffer on many artificial blood trails. It did not take much training at all. He was a natural from the day I brought him home. However, Snuffer also had a big interest in squirrels. If the artificial trail was too easy for him, he would become bored and would start sniffing around for squirrels. He knew that I could not always tell if he was on the blood trail or not. Sometimes I would realize he was messing around, and would yell "Snuffer...find the deer". He would hightail it back to the trail and quickly follow it to the end. Like Ryan said, you have to stay on top of them, because they will manipulate you to get what they want sometimes. They are funny little guys!
His blood trailing ability was borderline unreal. A friend of mine shot a doe once and told me that he was pretty sure the shot was not lethal, but he wanted to put Snuffer on it anyway. He had lost the trail after about 50 yards when the blood ended. I put Snuffer on it, and he took us for a ride. We had gone an honest 500 yards with No visible blood when we started to wonder if he was really on the trail or not. After another 40 yards or so, my buddy looked down on the ground and found one drop of blood. The deer was in fact not mortally wounded, but I was very impressed with Snuffers ability.
My advice to anyone thinking of getting one of these dogs is this: Think about it and make sure you will be dedicated in your training efforts. You will need to get them on as many real blood trails as possible. This often means sacrificing your own hunting time. It also may mean many late nights of tracking someone elses deer when you may have to be at work the following morning.
Start with firm discipline with positive reinforcement the day your puppy comes home with you. These little guys can be quite stubborn and they are smarter than you think they are.
Snuffer used to sleep in bed with me, but to be honest I don't think this is really a good idea. The dog needs to know that you are his master, and that he is not your equal. They look at your family like a pack, and the male dogs especially will always want to elevate their position in the pack. Never let them believe that they have risen beyond your position, or you will have a difficult time with discipline.
Do not use force on these dogs. NEVER strike them when they do wrong. They will not respond well to this. They respond much better with positive reinforcement. Reward them when they do the right thing. Lastly, I would say don't even consider buying one until you have read John Jeanneny's book.
I just ordered John's book today and plan to have a puppy in the near future.
Darn!! Just as I thought "Tilley is better looking then Doc". :bigsmyl:
Just got off the phone with a Tilly/Billy pup owner. Seems Zeus just had his SECOND successful deer track. His first was at 3 months now another at 4 months of age. I think this breeding is turning out just fine. Yep, Tilly did get a few extra treats tonight :goldtooth: Doc
PS: Bill I think I look more like Billy with my full beard..I mean wirehair ;)
Another thing to chew on for future buyers of tracking dogs, the Jeanneneys do some tracking dog work shops in New York/New England during the summer...Doc
Any one of you boys breeding your dogs in '10? I'm not trying to take anything away from John cuz I'll probably get one from him but....