I have been looking thru some old photographs from bow shoots and practice sessions over the past few weeks. What I observed in some of these photos got me to thinkin' and I started thumbing thru some old TBMs and some of the photos here on tradgang and some of the other traditional websites.
In a large percentage of the photos, it appears that the shooters were not reaching full draw. I realize that this is somewhat speculative, but in the case of my personal photos of myself and my friends, I am sure of it!
In a couple of cases in TBM, one of the prominent writers was shown at full draw in 7 seperate instances. He had at least 4" of arrow sticking out in front of the bow. I have spoken with this gentleman several times over the years and he has indicated to that he draws 28" and his arrows are cut to 28.5" I am sure that in most cases these photos were "staged" and that they were taken at full draw. Another interesting point is that this gentleman had shoulder issues a few years back and had to drop in bow weight. In more recent photos, with a lighter bow and the field point is buried to the riser. I AM NOT casting stones against this gentleman as I have a tremendous amount of respect for him. What I am saying is I wonder how many of us are shooting the weight we think we are?
Photos of me shooting from just 3 years ago showed 3" of arrow in front of the riser. I thought that I drew 28" and my arrows are 29" to bop. Photos from last season show that my draw length actually increased! Most photos showed less than an inch of arrow in front of the riser, meaning I was drawing over 28". Due to nerve damage issues 2 summers ago, I had to drop bow weight by 7#. If I THOUGHT I was shooting 57-60# at 28" draw a few years ago and I was really only drawing 26" (+or-), I was actually shooting around 53#. I am now shooting 53# at 28.5"(+or-) and even though it is basically the same weight, I have increased my "power stroke".
Out of our group of 10 shooting/hunting buddies, looking at photos from 3+ years ago, only 2 of our group consistantly drew the bow the same length.....and I wasn't one of them!!I have been following some of the recent posts dealing with "what is enough draw weight for...."
and it got me to thinking, which is a dangerous thing! Are we REALLY shooting the weight we THINK we are?
Not trying to start arguments or make anyone mad. I just found it interesting how many in our bunch weren't/aren't drawing as far as we thought. Our group isn't a bunch of rookies. The majority of our group has alot of experience. Most with 20 or more years experience..... Cloverdale winners, GLLI winners, IBO Triple Crown winners and succesful hunters.
Too much bow weight? Not enough practice? Gettin' old? Gettin' lazy? All of the above?
Food for thought!
Mike
Good post Mike. It has been easy for me with the heavier weight bows to get a little hunched and not come to full draw when I am not concentrating. Since I picked up my 71# @ 28" slammer, I have been much more aware of getting to full draw. I even practice while looking into a mirror sometimes. I have arrows that are cut to exactly 29.5" and to ensure that I am coming to full draw, I put a broadhead on and draw until it touches the riser at 29.5". Hopefully it will become second nature and I won't have too much creep in the future.
I just did a study on that last week on my own draw length.
I found that my draw length can change considerably depending on my stance or shooting form.
The formulas say that I have a 28-28.5 draw. Straight up and square, I have a 29" to the front (back)of bow. Leaned over and canted, it is down around 27.75"
One problem was a bow that was too short. When pulled to full draw, my fingers were pinching the arrow and resulting in poor releases. I found myself short drawing that bow all the time.
I think it is very common from what I have seen. They are not getting to their draw or at least don't seem to be getting all the draw they can. I have seen some let loose an arrow shooting more of a snap style and not even get to their face let alone all the way back into good form.
Mike I think you're very right! If I do what Terry told me to do I draw an honest 30". If not, I draw 28.75-29.5! Consistency is key and I've worked on that a bunch.
Good observation I think a lot of folks think their draw is longer than it actually is. I don't think it necessarily has to do with bow weight, practice, getting old or lazy, or whatever. A lot of people simply don't know what it is, or they might measure it with one of those 10-15# "measuring" bows in the archery shop. Of course, they can really stretch it out there, but then, when they draw a hunting weight bow, their draw shortens. Regardless of how we measure it, I think we're more likely to stretch it out a little when the only objective of drawing is to measure the draw length However, when we then shoot repeatedly, we forget about measuring and probably collapse a little. Well, maybe practice and weight do have a little to do with it. ;)
Mike, I think my effective bow weight is close to what I use to shoot, 51-53# but I get it from 49-51# bows now instead of 55-59# bows. My draw length is longer due to a shooting clinic with Rod Jenkins. I've steadily dropped bow weight but like you, with the longer draw I get a more efficient powerstroke. I'm actually using the limb as designed for that weight by the bowyer. What a concept. Plus with the new carbon and foam limbs, I feel I get increased performance also.
Mike, I have noticed that same thing for a LONG time. I think at least 90% of guys don't draw as far as they think they do. That is why I use a clicker...I can't figure out how to do it on my own :confused: If I shoot w/o my clicker, I draw around 28". I draw 29.5 when I am "aligned". I'd like to figure out how to do it wvery time w/o, but the clicker gives me a lot of confidence that I am getting back to the same point each time. Makes things a lot easier when you are tuning too!
28 inches is the average. That means there are just as many drawing under 28 as over. I draw under. I have shot with people who swear they draw over but leave 2inch of my arrow hanging. for some reason drawing under seems like a handicap to them.
Regarding changing draw length with body position..Ive found if I use my knees as an elevation control(bend the front or back knee to shoot up or down hill) my draw stays consistent. If I bend at the waist my draw length will vary.
SL
Imo after I watched some old movies of trad hunters they never held the anchor,as soon as it hit the side of their mouth it was loose.And I notice that at times I will tilt my head a little to forward and if I am bending at the waist it's harder to reach my anchor.
I know I have a tendency to short draw... Helen has me take pics of her shooting at 3D shoots. I don't often get her at full draw, the camera dosen't seem to go off at the right time. I have plenty of pics of her drawing the bow and the follow thru after the shot. I'm doing better with her new camera, it's a lot faster once I push the button.
I have seen this for many many years. I shoot in a lot of shoots, and hear guys all the time say they have a 30 inch draw. While watching them shoot they have 4 inches hanging over the end of there bows. Most archers think they have a longer draw than they actually do. Most measure there draw length while they fully extended and not in there natural shooting form. Once they are not trying to consciously draw further, they sink into their normal (natural) draw. Unless you are using some kind of draw length reference (clicker, feather on tip of nose, broadhead touching riser, ect) most traditional archers will have an inconsistent draw length. At short range it does not matter much, but anything over 25 yards and it will really show up. Consistency is the key to good shooting.
Human nature...repetition leading to complacency leading the the body taking a path of least resistance. Consistent draw length is probably one of the toughest (and more imporant) form flaws to overcome. The way I try to beat this is with a 2-point anchor - joint where the thumb joins the hand under the back point of the jaw under my ear and middle finger on "that" spot under jawline. I think I am **ok** at consistency this way, but definitely have to keep tabs on it.
If you watch guys at traditional shoots (as you mentioned in your first post) the amount of arrow hanging out the front can be amazing.....
R
I find it amazing that so many guys of average height, shoulder width & arm length on archery websites & in magazines speak of having 31" - 33" draw lengths. I never encountered that phenomenom in the old days. Maybe it's because arrows have only just recently become avilable to accomodate such long draws. Still, there was a reason that the amo standard for draw length was set at 28". I'm not disputing anybody's word on how far they draw their bows, but I'm from Missouri & you kow what they say about us.
I agree with the refereces above regarding a clicker. Set up correctly it will really make a difference.It can be a real eye opener.
SL
Mike,
I like to cut arrows with FP or blunts so it drawn to the shelf with my longbow or recurve. Broadheads are 3/4" longer and touch my index finger. If you shoot arrows too long, you have no way to check periodically. I make it a point not to look at the point, except to check once or twice in practice. Good Post.Barry
After finding some draw length my arrows went all the way to the riser. With a hex head it would move a little in my vision when I expanded for the shot and it was just hitting the riser. I think shooting that way for the past month helped set my draw length better. Just like a clicker would. Now with longer arrows I find myself trying to pull to the end of the arrow and can't get there because it is 1 1/2" longer, but I feel the back tension trying to get there.
An observation I have made over the years teaching and watching trad shooters is this, if you are repeativly shooting arrows you tend to hunch or collapse your back muscles and your draw length obviously shortens.
When I first started seriously shooting longbows and recurves and had the good fortune to have some gentlemen around who helped me out they taught me one thing that changed that collapse or hunch for good.
You do not pull back the string with your arm and hand.
Focus instead with each draw on pulling your elbow back like you are trying to elbow somebody behind you. Your hand is simply a hook for the string.Once I started focusing on this many years ago my release became very crisp, when I pulled thru (pulling the elbow) on the release my arm came straight back in line with the arrow, my draw length became very consistent and my arrow flight improved dramatically. Even when I would shoot mismatched arrows from the random arrow barrel.
Try it, maybe it will help some of the issues you are discussing here and some other posts.
When I first started using a clicker, I was amazed at how wrong it could be at times :bigsmyl:
too many folks are short drawing and not feeling the back tension settle in.
then there's always that phrase, 'switching to trad shortens your draw length' - well, that's almost always true if yer going from a release aid but not at all true if yer a finger shooter.
if ya look at terry's draw/hold pics, that's a complete draw with back tension. that's the consistent way to hold an arrow under tension.
I have been trying to understand my form since getting started back into shooting. Mostly just this past year and I am appalled at what I found out about myself and my lack of consistency.
I guess I should be happy that I shoot as well as do considering the fact that I don't do everything the same all the time... but I ain't! I will do whatever it takes to make myself do it one way.. all the time.
That idea presents a new problem. where/how do I find that acceptable starting point then how do I progress to get to where I want to be or better yet how do I know where I should be(for me/my build ect. ect.)
I feel a little like I'm chasing my tail here since I'm not even happy with how I formulate my questions(s)
Is step one set a goal? Is the goal realistic? I mean just because I want to draw 28, will I?, should I? or is it something different I should be trying to accomplish? If so, what?
Thank you for starting this thread. I know I need to firm up my form,my draw, my anchor and my groups(if you can call them groups),.... my shooting tells me so.
God bless,Mudd
PS I guess all of this could be summed up by saying... help!!Please!!
It's why I fuss about the dumb questions about draw weight for elk, or draw weight for deer. A 60# bow underdrawn by two inches will not be as effective as a 50# drawn to length and with a proper release.
Most folks who get into the sport without a coach or mentor who has shot awhile, get into the static release, or worse yet, a collapsing release. Some of that is starting out with too heavy a bow and ingraining bad form into the body and mind.
I learned the dynamic release in the early 1970's through reading about shooting form from guys like Milan Elott, and Al Henderson. It's not a difficult thing, but it has to be understood.
I have shot with fellows who are shooting sixty five pound recurves, and they are amazed that my 45 or 50 pound bows will shoot as far or farther then their heavy recurves. Once you explain the form, they kinda' get it. Then I can take their bow and shoot it thirty yards past their longest shot.
Nowadays we aren't into form and accuracy, as much as we are into style points and brand names.
We certainly need a change of mindset, and maybe a visit back to the real how-to series. This is a simple sport, but there are categorical imperatives that must be understood.
Well, I am pleased with the input I have received thus far. I hesitated posting on this subject because some folks are pretty touchy about their draw length/bow poundage. I think that some guys feel their "manhood" is being questioned! LOL!! Keep the opinions coming in.
Thanks, Mike
Well Said George! You are right on target.
Hey Mike... You know what they say... "Tall man, long draw. Short man, all draw." ... :D ...
... mike ... :archer: ...
While in the arrow shaft business I saw this over and over. I had a test arrow marked to measure draw length, and when the archer was aware of the measurement being made, he or she would draw the bow well. When shooting while relaxed, though, I would ease over to the side and observe, and more often than not the same archer's draw would be significantly shorter, many times as much as two inches. Made it devilishly hard to get a good match for some people.
I have noticed this on many archers and especially myself. I made a conscious decision to find a back tension form and use it. Instead of a clicker, I look at the point and draw it to the shelf, then notice how my back tension feels in this position and try to repeat it. I shoot better, even when I break concentration on the mark to check my arrow point / draw length in the middle of the process.
Try to use this mantra when shooting, "Pick a spot - draw the bow - anchor tight - and let it go." With emphasis on "draw the bow" meaning full draw to good form.
I am 5'10" with wide shoulders and regular arms, draw length with my best form and back tension is 27.5". I can get another 3/4" if I try but my form suffers.
i'm a touch over 5 foot ten and draw just on 27 " with a heel down longbow ... a bit over with my 'curves . if i drop down to " target " weight bows under 35# my draw is easier not longer .every couple of days i shoot some blunts with tape wrapped around the shaft at my true draw length so that it pushes up against my bow hand and still lets me pull through the shot . i still have to ensure that i use my back though ... its an everyday thing for me as i have picked up and learned so many bad habits ... and i teach archery !!!
.
i just don't let the kids see me shoot . LOL
Ben
I have found for myself that when I start grouping arrows to the right or left, and can't seem to find the bullseye, I automatically assume a poor release or poor grip. Pretty soon, I am spraying arrows all over the place.
What I usually figure out when I stop and concentrate on form, is that I am short drawing. When I use back tension, push my bow arm out, and do not collapse or hunch my bow shoulder, my groups immediately tighten and fall back on target. My bow seems to shoot quieter and my arrow flight improves. I would gues when I short draw, it is about 1 to 1.5 inches on average, but have not videotaped myself lately. I bet that when I do, though, I am much more conscious of form.
I have also noticed, along with others on this post, that many trad shooters tend to short draw, even when shooting 45- to 50-pound bows. Some shooters are certainly overbowed, but I don't believe that is always the cause of short drawing.
Great post Mike!
I noticed myself in pictures with quite a bit of arrow hanging off the riser. I'm not over bowed, I just hunch up. I ended up shooting this way because for some reason i shoot very well this way under 15yds and I guess it was easier. I have been trying to break myself of the habbit and am getting much better at reaching full draw and keeping my form. I recently set up a range in the basement next to my archery work bench. It's only 7yds and I have to sit down or my limb tips will hit the rafters.....but hey it's 2am and 20 degrees out and i just got done shooting! what i did notice is that by shooting from a chair, turned 90 degrees from the target, if I keep my back tight into the back of the chair, I can't "hunch up". This has helped my form and helped me hit my draw much easier and consistantly
Like everyone else I try to duplicate my draw every shot, but it seems it isn't an absolute necessity, at least to a true instinctive shhoter.
In one of my books on him from my formative years,Papa Bear described how he whacked the then world record Stone Sheep with an arrow to the center of the chest using a half draw lob shot as it looked at him with just some of it's head & neck exposed from the back side of a ridge line.
He couldn't make the shot with a straight line full draw shot, so he simply didn't use one. I don't think I could make that shot with 50 practice attempts first.
Amazing guy...
Great post, need to ask my wife to take some photos to chek my situation, but could it be, that in posing for a picture one kinda dont do the stance all the way, but thinks more how he looks? ;)
I find the responses kind of refreshing! I actually hesitated posting this topic! It looks as if I am not the only one who has noticed the "extra" arrow hanging off the riser! I do realize that alot of shooters are shooting higher spined shafting and leaving it long to get their setups tuned (with inserts, heavier broadheads, ect.) and achieve a higher foc. Thanks to all for the thoughtful responses thus far and I look forward to reading some additional ones.
Mike
I've learned a lot on this site from Terry's pics and some of the posts in threads including this one. I have always stated myself as having a 27" draw but what I've found after a lot of focus on my form and back tension is that I'm actually most consistent at about 28.5" I just started back shooting trad this year and I made my anchor point to be the back of a shield cut feather in the corner of my mouth. Well depending on how far from the nock groove the feather is placed or if I tried to shoot with another type of fletching other than a high profile shield then my draw length was inconsistent and made tuning my bow and accuracy past 20yds a nightmare. I was also leaning my head into the shot and then releasing as soon as I hit anchor. Now I focus on keeping my head in proper position and drawing/ shooting with a bare shaft so I can use my thumb knuckle in the back of my ear as my anchor, and I'm still fighting to hold once I reach anchor instead of releasing right away. With all this cold weather it gives me lots of time to practice in my garage and build the strength to hold the weight at full draw. After only about a week of focusing on all of this; I took my bow out yesterday to do some stumping and look for squirrels. Well I didn't see any squirrels, but every corn stalk or dirt pile I shot at was dead centered and shots were from 20yds out to 45yds.
I'm quite a bit different than what many have posted here. I definately am not into the gap vs instinctive debate (to each their own). But I tend to be (what I believe to be) and instinctive shooter. I don't worry much about distance and I pull up and shoot. I don't worry about hitting "anchor" as I snap shoot as the shot feels right. Now...when target shooting, that's different - I will focus more on form. But when there is game or a stump in front of me...I pull up and shoot and often that results in a quicker, less drawn shot.
I may be wrong, but I believe Fred Bear and Hill, and Byron Ferguson were/are snap shooters. If you watch many of them, especially the ones that shoot exhibitions, their draw hand rarely reaches their face, but they release clean while on the drawstroke vs releasing from a static or "creeping" anchor.
So...I attribute my own occasions of "shorter drawing" to snap shooting. I could be ridiculously wrong :bigsmyl: , I've been known to have been wrong before (once). hahaha
if I try and anchor and hold...I'm all over the target vs cleanly pulling up and shooting.
J, that's kinda how I am right now but I'm trying to build up my back muscles so I can hold longer if I have to in a hunting situation. I refer to my anchor as being a spot that I consistently have to hit before I release. In most situations I've got my eyes burning a hole where I want the arrow to go long before I've reached "anchor".
I know that if I stand with my shoulder, forearm and feet in a direct line to the target my draw is the longest. If I turn or hunch it will get shorter.
When I take a shot at an animal one of my thought keys is "pull to full draw" before letting the arrow go.
A person may have a lot of arrow hanging out the front of his bow because he intentionally left them long. Honestly, I really don't pay much attention to how other people are shooting at 3Ds. I usually have my hands full worrying about myself.
Do some people not draw as far as they think they do, or have inconsistent draw lengths? I have no doubt. But not everyone who says they have a long draw length is overstating the fact. Personally, I'm 6'4" and draw a recurve 32". And yes, that's an exact measurement. I use a clicker. ;)
The only way to tell another's draw length is to watch him shoot. Then tell him and get ready for an argument. He'll also start to draw a little longer.
I shoot arrows with about 3" sticking out, but it's to get the spine right on these carbons. I have about a 26-7" draw.
hey mike if it aint broke dont fix it. :thumbsup:
from some of the post replies to this thread, that's why it's so important to assess your true draw length with a very light holding weight bow. there are no exceptions to this and those that think otherwise find problems sooner if not later.
adding to the above, do strive to get your form analyzed by a worthy coach or knowledgeable archery mentor.
yes, i know - YOU don't need anyone to tell you how to shoot your bow, after all, you're pretty good at harvesting meat, roving and even at the 3D game.
in your best interests, you have no clue as to what you're missing, if anything, until your shooting is analyzed by a pro. got nothing to lose but typically less bucks than buying a new set of carbons and time.
back in the 50's i spent years of learning how to shoot incorrectly on my own, only to have been fortunate to receive proper instructions and training in the early 60's by a real pro coach. that made a HUGE difference, and change, to my form and draw length and my overall consistency/accuracy at roving, hunting and punching paper.
as always, ymmv.
I used to think, many tears ago that I had a 28" draw but measured using a real bow and found out it was only 26" I think the worst thing you can do is to usee those little 10# bows in an archery shop to measure. I have seen guys pull it back to around 28" and then fiddle with their stance, hands and arm to make it stay there because that was what your draw is supposed to be, isnt it, after all it says so right on the bow.
it IS very important to determine draw length using a very light draw weight bow.
no, not a 10# kid's bow, a 30# or so adult stick bow. you MUST feel your shoulder and BACK muscles moving and aligning as the limbs load up on drawing - won't ever happen with a 10# bow and more than likely won't happen to any newbie with a 40# bow.
for such a simple sport there are so many pitfalls - as in any free form aiming sport.
Interesting post, and a coach or even someone with more expirence than me would be nice, but until someone comes along I will read this site and do the best I can. When I first started 28 1/2" to the back of point would hit and pull the arrow off the string. I am 5'9" and now shoot with a 26 1/2" to 27" draw as it varies depending on shot position.
I'am with Steve O on this. I us a clicker so I get the same draw each time
I recommend that if you really want to know your draw length,
go out and shoot a round of 3D or whatever, with your
equipment you always use , and then near the end of say 20 targets,
have someone surreptitiously grab your arrow at back of bow as
soon as you've come to full draw.
Have them measure where they've grabbed the arrow.
Be prepared for an argument!
Or just get a clicker, then you can argue with
that, privately :bigsmyl:
Ya iv noticed that often. Not many people iv seen shoot the actual draw length they claim.
I have a clicker on my bows so i never worry about that but its interesting to see someone else shoot my bows as most never draw far enough to get it to click.
i based my shooting on the form/technique Terry Green Describes in the shooters forum, when i was done i increased my draw a good 1 1/2" with proper back tension and proper alignment.
As an add on to the observations above, I think that's why guys have so much trouble finding an arrow that works for them. If they are shooting a 50# bow, let's say, and only drawing it 26", the weight of the bow is only 44# at their draw.
QuoteOriginally posted by SCATTERSHOT:
As an add on to the observations above, I think that's why guys have so much trouble finding an arrow that works for them. If they are shooting a 50# bow, let's say, and only drawing it 26", the weight of the bow is only 44# at their draw.
Absolutely, which is why I agree with what Uncle Buck said. If you want to see a guy end up with overspined arrows, have him check his draw length on a bow thirty-or-so pounds lighter than what he actually shoots, and then order his arrows based on that often-too-long measurement.
far more than half the trad archers i've shot with or seen shooting are short drawing an already short draw. the typical culprit is almost always overbowing. i've given a few of these folks a lighter draw weight bow to check out (say, 55# instead of 65#. or even 40# instead of 50#) and they're all amazed at how much their draw length grew. :D
I just read Terry's tutorial on the proper form ...that's great info! Thanks for doing that Terry.
Too bad it's I read it in the middle of winter, when I don't get home until well after dark and it's too cold to shoot much!
Well...I'll just have to hold this info until I can shoot a bunch and work at it. Good stuff!
Awesome thread! I just started shooting trad again this year and I started out with a 40lb selfbow designed for a 28" draw. After less than 1000 shots it broke because I was overdrawing it. I found a local guy selling an early blackhawk warrior (34@28) that seemed like a good beginner choice, probably about 40 lbs where I was drawing it. After putting a few thousand arrows through it I realized my draw had increased. I had learned to draw to where my back really locked in. I wanted a heavier bow for hunting, and began to look for a nice longbow in the 45-50 lb range because I knew the poundage would go up at my draw length and I could easily draw the weight. I went to lancaster archery and tested out all of the bows they had on the rack in that range (mostly samicks, tradtech, and a few martins). Every one seemed to stack really bad near the end of the draw, and it was hard for me to hold the weight at full draw.
austin, at 30" or so of draw length you'd want/need at least a 64" bow. lots depends on the bow type and design ... and the bowyer!