Trad Gang

I was talking to an anti-hunting friend yesterday (yes we can coexist)and the conversion got around to hunting, ethics and whats fair and so on. We usually try to avoid such topics (hunting in general) as we never can agree on such things. But this time it just came up and I must admit she said some things that really got me a thinkin.
I started huntin big game 10 years ago and what I do and how I do it has changed a great deal in that time. This ain't a confessional so I won't go into detail, but let me just say that I have done some things in the field that make me feel  pretty pathetic. I mention this to point out that I like to think I have realised my wrongs and done my best to mend my ways. I felt I had become an ethical hunter. But after talking to my friend I am not so sure.
One of her first questions was why do I hunt? I told her because man is a predator no different than a Wolf, Bear, Cougar etc. And this is where she stumped me. "Does a Wolf use a tree stand? Or artificial scents and calls? And what about binoculars and camouflage?"
Hmmmmm. Well I honestly couldn't think of a single thing to say to that. And I still can't. And you know, perhaps she has a point. What do you folks think?

My advantage over the prey is my superior intellect.  Any way I use that in the field is fine with me.

he would if he could  ;)

Cave men,Indians and a lot of people before us used the same methods and at least we dont keep them penned up and shoot them in the head with a nail gun.Just like people before us had farms and raised animals for food.The Indians didn't build condos and strip malls either so why do we that takes a greater toll on animals than what we do at least we eat it for nourishment. Did you ever hear of PETV(people for the ethical treatment of vegetables) nobody goes to protest how a carrot is handled...LOL

Touchy situation. You dont want to offend your friend, or put a bad spin on hunting.

I think if predators could use weapons(or gadgets), they would. I have seen footage of chimps using branches to club other animals for prey, get termites out of mounds with sticks.


That being said, I often like to inform antis of how much I love the animals I hunt. I point out that my purchase of lisences and such benefit the "herd" greatly, as does decreasing it's numbers.
I also tell them it isnt about "the kill" for me, that simply being surrounded by nature is enough for me.

You could also point out that each predator has a very different style of hunting. The cat stalks, the dogs chase, etc. They are all a means to an end. We as humans are able to define HOW we hunt, be it gun, bow, ground or treestand.

I wish you luck and remember to stay civil. My best hunting buddy and I first met over a heated debate about hunting. He was an anti. Imagine how great it was to watch him make a perfect shot on a six pointer years later...

I would say no, a wolf does not use a treestand but will get up high where he can locate his prey making it the same effect. Wolves have superior eyesight,  to give us the same affect we use binoculars.  A wolfs fur allows him to blend in with his surroundings (camoflauge).  Wolves will hunt in packs which will cause a deer to possibly move in a certain direction,  similar to our artificial scents which bring a deer to a certain area.  So I would say man and wolves means of hunting are similar.  Just my opinion.  I would just agree to disagree with her.

If I can be honest (& in my bluntness, possibly rude. I'll apologise in advance as I mean you no disrespect) I think you gave her a bloody stupid answer & you've put yourself in an unarguable situation.
As a hunter married to an anti-hunting vegetarian (you're right about the coexistence!  :D ) I've always tried to be 100% honest when Jules has asked me why I hunt. I never, ever give her the generic 'Because it's natural, Man is a hunter' answer. I try & explain that, basically, I like to eat wild, happy, free-ranging meat. I enjoy the experience of going & getting that meat. I take pleasure &  satisfaction in effectively being able to kill an animal that'll support my nutritional needs/wants. I love my time in the outdoors pursuing my quarry, be it deer, pigs, rabbits, whatever.... I would rather eat a squirrel that I hunted & shot myself than a store-bought, factory farmed fillet steak. Her choice is to not eat meat, my choice is to not put the responsibility of killing the meat that I eat on someone elses shoulders. There's a lot, lot more to my answers/arguments than this, hell, I could probably write a book, but that's the basic outline.

Yes it was a bit of a touchy conversation and it never got heated, but it sure felt odd being stumped like that. Thanks for your thoughts, perhaps I will be able to give an appropriate answer next time.

Alternatively you could try a friend of mine's approach (& I quote...)

" Hell honey, 100 years ago we couldn't fly either, but if you want that romantic trip to Paris this year, you gonna walk?"

QuoteOriginally posted by Focusource:
My advantage over the prey is my superior intellect.  Any way I use that in the field is fine with me.

I agree.  The smartest predator is the one who gets a full belly at the end of the day.

A wolf or cougar doesn't because it cant. Just as I cant run faster and longer than a deer and kill it with my teeth and claws.

That is like saying plants use photosynthesis to grow so why dont people?

lpcjon2 : Don't laugh at carrot abuse ! I saw a snowman at grocery store picking his nose !!

Hey - in regards to anti-hunters - you do no not owe them a reason for why you hunt.

The rain forests are being cut down to grow soy; herbicides contain chemicals that are dangerous byproducts: and one drop on your skin can kill you.  
So they put it into herbicides and spread the danger out; and that stuff goes into pesticides too.
In order for a person to grow food; nature has to be displaced. Insects cannot live there; birds eat poisoned insects and die.

In order for something to live on this planet: something has to die. That is how it works.
If your friend is confused over this; then just admit they are confused.

Native Americans used wolf hides to sneak up on bison; and the rumor that the wolves were all car killed - well I started that rumor: and its not true.

Ishi went without eating meat and took off smelly clothes and heck- we have always had to be sneaky to get close enough to shoot an arrow.

If you hunt game; you can follow the game; but when you plant something; you have to stay and defend it. Which came first; war or farming?

A lot of us do not use treestands; or camo; or artificial scents-- ask your friend if she is  promoting our sponsors here  :)

What, I'm supposed to go out and use half as many legs as a wolf, run down my prey, without benefit of a pack, hurl myself at a hamstring and hang on with my undersized canines?

Does your friend think that the Native Americans were wrong in using atlatls, then bows, and then firearms to harvest their meat? OK, so we go back to running the herds off of cliffs, or hazing them into pens for clubbing.

Is it fairer to domesticate animals so that they will blandly hang around my house and allow me to slaughter them? Am I allowed to slaughter them with a knife, or must I use my teeth?

Or am I supposed to go vegan? That opens a whole 'nother kettle of worms, as vegans seem to believe that plants do not have the same status as animals, and so are less deserving of living out their lives undisturbed and unslaughtered. Life is life, and life feeds on life. There is no "guiltless" existence on this planet, and so I accept that this is the way the world is made and I will play my part in it.

On the other hand, your friend seems to have the same natural dislike of gadgetry that we trad archers do. It is just that the tolerance level is adjusted a tad differently. Let your friend accompany you on a stumping foray in your hunting grounds, see firsthand what you do and how challenging it is, and then sleep on it. Without a formal discussion of the outing, maybe you will both agree to tacitly back off from the disagreement, preserving the peace and the friendship, though it appears to me as though your friendship is sound and secure.

Lemme think about this, I am sure I can come up with something more coherent in the morning.
Killdeer  

Lots of points to ponder for sure. I think I need a beer.

Justin I think you need a bundle of copy paper and another ink cartridge and print this stuff out so you have a reference manual for your next talk with the anti...LOL

Too cold here, I believe I will get another glass of Port.

Killdeer   :wavey:

For myself and my family we love the taste of wild game and like the fact it is much healthier than the farm raised version, it is a very large part of our diet.
I like the fact that I am contributing to keeping a healthy herd for future generations with my license fees that manage and insure game limits.

She does not have a point. You are not a wolf with wolf speed on four legs, wolf nose to smell or wolf hearing to hear or wolf teeth to kill therefore you use the tools at your disposal to hunt game and you hunt because you love to hunt.  No need to justify that at all.

True story.  I went to a party where a guest delivered a dead wild goose on the hoof to the host.  A horrified female PETA type guest demanded to know how he could shoot such a beautiful thing.  His reply was "Until I grow wings and learn to fly up and catch them and wring their damned necks shooting will have to do."  I never forgot that one and it got a good laugh from the party.

I agree with all when you say man has not the speed, nose, fangs nor hearing of our four legged counterparts. But we do have intelligence.
I do agree with my friend when she says we do not need such things as binos and camo and such. We use them to make things easier and to an extent there ain't nuthin wrong with that. I tried still huntin Whitetails this year and even with my binos and camo the Deer still beat me. But I don't think in all honesty I can say that we need anything more than our bows and our wits.
Time for another beer.

Her analogy was flawed from the git-go. No, a wolf does not use a "treestand", but a cougar, an owl, a hawl, all use them.

A wolf or a coyote do use cover scents- they roll in stinky stuff to hide their scent from their prey. While they may not use calls to imitate their prey, they howl and call to others in the pack to corrdinate their hunt, and to announce they are on the chase.

Her question shows her ignorance of the natural predator. We as human hunters will often pass an easy shot on a small deer. To a wolf, an easy meal is an easy meal. They will corner prey, chase it into deep snow or water, and kill at first opportunity. They know no bag limits, or size restrictions.There is no fair chase in a wolf's world. And there is no such thing as a "humane" kill. They tear their prey apart and will start eating before its dead.  They have hearing, eyesight and a sense of smell that far surpass our own.

I have seen mule deer killed by a mountain lion and left to rot. There were tracks of a cub along side, it was killed to teach jr. how to kill.It was not fed on at all. Neck snapped, claw marks on its sides and back. Dead, rotting and fed on by the magppies.

I never apologize for being a hunter. My goal and intent is to kill game for food. While I draw enjoyment from many aspects of the hunt, the truth is, we hunt to kill prey. Otherwise, we'd be photographers or something. I do not feel a need to justify to someone else my choice to seek out and supply my own meat should I be successful. I kill deer because I like the meat. I catch and kill fish for the same reason.

If someone else chooses not to eat the flesh of other living beings, that is their choice.It has no bearing on my choice.  But they need to understand that even a salad results in dead animals. We cannot draw sustinence no matter what form it takes, without taking the life of something else, be it plant or animal. Its natures way, and its fact.

But...well....vegetables can't run away. That's not fair. I dunno, anyone suppose the turnips feel the farmer coming and are thinking hard thoughts of, "No, please, please, pick Tommy over there." Sorry, I have a weird sense of humor!

Seriously, hunting is part of what made us human in the first place, IMHO. Natural predators DO, in fact, have advantages we don't have. Anyone here can fly like a falcon, raise their hands? Anyone here have the eyesight of a hawk, raise their hands? Anyone here can smell blood in the water like a shark, raise their hands? Anyone here have claws that can rip out a deer's throat, raise their hands? Hmmmm....

I think the proper response should be,"Why don't you hunt?"
It's just as germaine as her question.

Your friend would just love me this season. I'm eating greens with my deer tags. Well,they haven't gone in the pot just yet. I have permission to hunt if its easy terrain so, it ain't over til its over and that's not until Jan 15th.
God bless,Mudd

Wolfs hunt in packs. That's 5 wolfs to 1 deer. Not fair to the deer but they do it. Croc's hide under water and wait for the prey and even spiders spin great big webs to catch their meals. What your doing is really no different than what other predators do. Cats hide in trees and wait for their prey, right? Just like you do! I am so glad I am not the type of person that goes around everyday trying to get everyone else to live like I think they should. That would wear me out man. Stay frosty man. Don't let them wear you down.  :)

I was genetically locked into being a hunter. Not that many generations ago we were all hunter gatherers. Some gathered, some hunted. I am glad I was not born a gatherer.

Leopards often wait on branches over trails in India,this is a fact and have seen it.
tigers,leopards, lions are born with cammoflage,the last leopard I hunted got to within 10 feet,not yards before i could get a shot,my first tiger i literally got to within 12 yards before i realised it was a tiger that i was looking at,I was hunting sambur and would not shoot a Tiger.
Leopards verry often go into peoples animal pens and kill everything in it and eat nothing without waking up any humans.
I was born a meat eater and a warrior by cast and creed,hunting was a way to teach us how to protect ourselves and out people and provide protein for us all.
I definately agree there are a lot of people who portray themselves as hunters and abuse the previlege of being hunters.I have not killed anything this year and have more than loved every moment being out in the woods this year.I do intend to take meat this year and will fill my freezer.It is up to the hunter to choose the method.
Tree stand,stalk or ambush,hunting is hunting,if you do not wish to contribute to killing,stop eating meat,wearing wool,leather shoes,milk,butter,honey,and dont even bother with organic produce as even the manure that came for the produce came from a farm.

I think you can't run 40 miles an hour or have claws and fangs so you have to use your large brain and tools to capture your pray.

I agree with robtattoo. The "I hunt because I am a predator" argument doesn't hold water.  All humans are predators so why don't they all hunt? Hunting is a personal decision and means something different to each person. I think many hunters don't take the time to figure out why they do it. It's a pretty primal urge that requires a lot of introspection and contemplation to be able to explain it to someone who doesn't feel it. I think it's why so many hunters fall back on trite explanations that leave them feeling inadequate when dealing with people who are passionate about their contrary opinions. I hunt because when I hunt I feel as though  I am a part of, rather than a spectator to nature. Although I enjoy other outdoor activities immensely, I don't have or feel the same connectedness to nature as I do when I hunt. I love the feeling of self sufficiency In providing my own food also. I get this from gardening too.

Anti and non hunters tend to pigeon hole hunters as all hunting for the same reason. Their arguments are as trite as some of our defenses. Prey cares not how they die or if they are killed fairly or respectfully. Only humans seem to care how they die or how they kill. All predators adapt physically and tactically to become more efficient. I can think of very few human hunting tactics that don't have direct parallels in the non-human predator world. Traps are spider webs. Ambush predators (cougars, raptors) may perch in a tree waiting for their unsuspecting prey to wander by. A deer drive is a pack of wolves cooperatively hunting. All these things would counter the original argument presented, but they don't answer the question "why do you hunt?"  To be honest there are some who we would all prefer didn't answer that question.

Why does someone drive a car that kills flies and mosquitoes on the windshield?  Why does someone use antibiotics to kill living creatures that infect other living creatures?  Why should we have chlorine in the water and kill thousands of helpless creatures?  Why warn people or care about a Tsunami; millions of sea creatures and micro-organisms flourish?  

The entire debate hinges on one's world view; that is the "lens" by which one understands the world and answers a handful of questions in a coherent and comprehensive manner (in other words, the total sum of the answers have to fit together and make sense, otherwise one's world view is inconsistent and irrational!)  The basic questions are:  What is the beginning foundational absolute of the cosmos- the really real?; What is the nature of external reality- the world around us?; What is a human being (origins/destiny)?;  How do we come to know anything?; What is right and wrong- ethics/morality?; What is the meaning of human history?

There are only a handful of "systems" that seek to give a framework for those answers.  The "systems" that tend to exalt animals to an extreme actually diminish the value of human beings.  Culturally it can be seen as animals are given higher value while the sanctity of human beings is decreased.  Go to India.  Children, elderly, and the sick are laying in the streets starving while animals roam freely (and sacredly) on the same streets.

America was founded on a Judeo-Christian "system" that had a proper place for creation (which meant we cared for our world with conservation and game laws); while at the same time it had a proper place for the divinity of man (which gave us freedom and human rights).  As the "system" is set aside- those proper relationships of animals and humans go with it!  

I hunt- just like I drink water, pick an apple off a tree, care for my dog, work the soil, or enjoy a good steak and baked potato.  It is all part of a created order given us for our good and welfare.  We are to care for it, use it, and enjoy it.

Never in my life will I apologize for being a bowhunter.  Humans are predators. Our genes are programed for the chase.  Many times esp. while in college I wound up dating many of these over educated enlightend souls who have turned their backs on our very nature? What are they rebelling against?
  It is easy to be a "world is harmony" liberal when your safe and well fed living in a city. Just this last week I watched mouth agape one pundit while referring to the Treadwell movie state; "hunting is just misplaced primate aggression"...  WHAT?  Yeah, this was a Berkley type erudite. Educated in books and never in fact.  

Lead by example and try to take some of these people out to experience what hunting is in the real world. Then they can create an informed opinion...

"Well I honestly couldn't think of a single thing to say to that"

Tell her your not a wolf, bear or cougar! Your a human, and you hunt like a human! Good Grief

Eric

You already hunt instinctively with a trad bow. I think it is for you to decide how far you want to take that journey toward a club and spear.

If you are on a journey, and I think hunting for some of us is one, thats all she needs to know. I wouldn't let others decide for you whether your methods are "just" or not. It puts them into a position no person can occupy.

Certainly consider her views.  I  applaud you doing that. But it is ultimately your own inner voice that will tell you how you want to hunt and when changes, if any, are required.

Joshua

I used a tree for a treestand long before I hauled a 55 gallon drum stand up a tree; there were no deer at the time...I was hopin' a fox would come huntin' the resident cottontails. Aside from that, other predators such as cougars hunt from trees...with no conscience and no excuses. Man learns from other predators, and one of the first things to take away from such lessons is that man is easy prey, him/her self.

Calling does not require anything artificial...just a bit of know-how and talent. Camouflage?...does anybody want to pretend that both predator and prey are not adequately camouflaged? Sorry, but my ancestry started shedding body hair long ago...and putting on a deer hide used to work, but it's no longer advisable. The binoculars...well, I used to do a little better with my far-sighted friend, but we've lost contact. And I've never shot anything with a pair of binoculars...but I do have 500mm lens for nature photography, when I do not wish to disturb the critters. Personally, when I'm talking trad bowhunting, it has nothing to do with optics.

I did not have any hunters in my immediate family or have any real guide at all. It took a long time to realize that I have a genetic predisposition that I cannot ignore...and I suppose I can thank those opposed to bringing it so clearly to my attention. None of us are here without benefit of those who were previously successful in such endeavors. How silly to think so little of the odds our ancestry managed to overcome...and how better to understand, than to hunt. Hunting gathering has not gone away...they've built malls for it. Rick.

They are naturally camouflaged, those who can hunt from a superior position do, they have natural weapons, we are very lacking in the senses and physically compared to our prey and use our intelligence to close the gap. No apologies here.

KSDan- In my opinion, Judeo-Christianity has little to do with man's relationship to nature. There are plenty of instances where christians do not live in harmony  with their environment or animals and there are plenty of examples of non- god based religions and faiths that did and still do respect and conserve nature. While the United States may have been founded on JC principles, there were plenty of Americans on this soil long before Columbus and those who followed arrived and decimated our natural resources. Judeo-Christians spent the previous 400 years wreaking havoc on this continent's native wildlife... The North American Conservation model is less than 100 years old and came to be only because of a few passionate, intelligent and influential people decided to do something to break the trend. I doubt they got their motivation from Sunday school. I think they did it because they loved to hunt and wanted to make sure they and their descendants would always have that opportunity.

You might ask her if she understands how many animals die getting vegetables and grains to the table, from the forests cleared for farmland, to the chemicals used to control pests, to the harvesters grinding up anything that can't get out of the way, to the trucks hitting 1000's of animals on the roads and highways bringing raw foods the processors and then processed food to the stores.  Tell her not to pass judgement on you (us) as she is every bit as responsible for animal deaths as we are.  Animals die, it's part of the system of life, whether it's people hunting them or other predators, or getting hit by cars.  You might offer to take her with you into the field sometime, after actually experiencing a hunt, she could change her tune.

We hunt for game management,population control.Our hunting license fees pay for this.If we would stop hunting the population would grow out of sight.And we would have devastion to farmers crops,animals hit by cars,disease.There is not that many natural predators left that can control population growth.I really can't see her point of view at all.

Does she eat meat or wear leather?  Does she think coyotes should be allowed to take toddlers out like they are starting to try to do in California?  Does she let mice, rats, and insects have free run of her house?  How about flies and mosquitos, does she swat them?  If she is a vegetarian the odds are many deer and rabbits are whacked to protect vegetable crops.  Point out that the way wolves, wild dogs, and lions kill much of the time involves animals being torn into pieces.  Or the prey is held by one animal while others in the pack begin to eat its organs while its still alive.  How fair or sporting does that make wolves?  There are lots of documentaries showing the true way prey animals actually die in the wild.  A shot or two to the vitals is an easy way out compared to wolves or starvation.

Antis, and the like, as well as people that are indifferent to wildlife have done more through loss of habitat from developement than I, or any wolf will ever match.

I can't hear, smell, or run as fast as a wolf, he has far more of an advantage with his natural ability than I have with any or all of the gadgets I could possibly posses, and that goes for the prey as well!

I feel the question posed is about ethics, and are we ethical to hunt and kill and animal when we can subsist these modern days without it. I say we are, if we go about it in an ethical mannor, that is using our hunting skills in lew of technology. Our conscience instead of our desires. If we follow the mandates of management. If we manage the wildlife as stewards, providing for man as well as beast IS possible, but it truly starts and ends with ethics. "Ethics; is doing the right thing when nobody is looking". She would have no parks to hike and camp in, such as Yellow Stone, if it were not for the setting aside of such territories by a hunter....Teddy Roosevelt.

I think this thread is an example of why the non-hunting public has such a poor understanding of hunting. A reasonable and straightforward question was asked, "Why do you hunt?" In two hours this group of enlightened and conscientious traditional bowhunters have responded with: "Its in my genes" "God gave man dominion over the beasts" "do you know how many animals YOU killed eating your salad" and "because we are smarter than animals". For a group of people who feel so strongly we have no need to apologize, we're getting awfully defensive. All of these arguments can be countered, even by a fellow hunter, so imagine how easy it must be for someone who fundamentally disagrees with our position to regard it as irrelevant. And so the endless cycle of tit for tat arguments continues and the original question never gets answered and the asker goes away holding even more resolutely to their original convictions. Robtatoo, however, in answering the question from the get go would have gotten a reasonable person thinking and maybe even swayed some opinions. Its the difference between defending hunting and promoting hunting and I believe that promoting hunting will change more minds than defending it.

My wife was somewhat of an anti I guess you could say but before we said I do I told her it was part of who I am and what I do and it ain't gonna change.
She would make comments come deer season but nothing that would cause a problem, just poking a little. I told her she was intitled to her opinion and I am what I am.

Well long story short she got to griping about me being gone all deer season and all turkey season and I told her if she wanted to spend some time with me to get some camo and boots on and lets go.
That was her first trip to the turkey woods and after I called a couple birds into her lap and she made the decision to squeeze the trigger, she's hooked.
She cries everytime she takes a bird but she still keeps going and she understands why I do what I do. She don't wanna shoot a stick or deer hunt and that's fine but now she knows what it's all about and she'll tell you there ain't no better feeling than putting meat on the table from the field that you harvested yourself.

I hunt because I can and I love and cherish every moment in pursuit of game cause that's what I am. Whether I harvest or just sit and watch knowing I could have, It's who I am. I reverence every moment in the woods and every critter that I cross paths with and know that when it's all just right we become a part of the cycle and life ends and life go's on.
It's who I am and that's the way it is.

Justin, if she is an anti-hunter there is not much you can do.  As a hunter the worst thing you can do is wonder and think if the questions she has posed has merit. If she doesn't understand by now your not going to change her mind.  Hunters have done more for the increased population of game in North America than any other group.
Al

Iv'e always felt it was just born in me to hunt, fish and other things in the wild, I don't need to make any excuses for the way I am.  :saywhat:

This one is easy.  Predators in the wild have their incredible sense of smell, speed to run their prey down, strength to kill them with, sharp teeth, fur to keep them warm, etc...   Why not call foul that predators hunt in packs.  Her question is beyond silly.  

The answer is that you and I have all the disadvantages compared to the prey we hunt.  We  increase our odds to ensure that we can make close clean kills. This respects the prey and ensures we make as many clean kills as possible.    

No other answer needed.  

As for offending them.  Let em have it, bunny hugging morons need to know they are silly and wrong.  As well a hypocrites of the worst kind, the self deluded kind!  If they drive cars they kill bugs and animals, if they wear leather they kill animals, etc, etc, etc....  We all kill animals, every last one of us.  If they want to stop killing animals then quit breeding more people!

Human population and urban sprawl is the biggest animal killer of all.  The problem is most bunny huggers don't mind that they cand rive along killing things, wear leather belts and shoes, eat eggs, step on bugs, poison mice, the list here is 1,000 pages long.  Most of them assuage their conscience by hiring other killers to take care of their killing for them.  

Molly coddling or sugar coating this subject is exactly why we are where we are.  Stop the PC stuff and tell them the facts.  When an idiot speaks and no one corrects them, then they think they are right.  Anti's are free to have their feelings and thoughts, what they are not free to do is push them off on you or anyone else.  They are anti's.  The fact that you hunt already offends them, sugar coating it is playing into their game.

I do not feel that her stance against all hunting has merit, but her opinion that certain tools most hunters take for granted might be a bit unfair was an interesting thought. Certainly has made me question all the things I used to think I needed to kill my food.

All predators use everything GOD has given them so why shouldn't man use everything available to him/her. You will never win an arguement with a PETA freak. If she believes in GOD ask her why he gave us carnivoir like teeth if he didn't want us to eat meat. If she believes in evoloution scientist claim that the advances that got man out of caves was meat that caused the brain to develop into what it is today. Had she rather live in a cave and have to barter for food with the male hunters?

uhhh... we aren't wolves   :knothead:
we use what we have, and some self control so we can keep doing what we do.

massive mono-culture cropland to support vegetarians is far worse for the planet than killing a few critters for the pot.  
leave some and the critters come back, but 500,000 acres of soy is always gonna be just that.

We didn't get where we are by molly coddling or sugar coating... we got where we are by refusing to consider another person's viewpoint, assuming they are against us, and treating them like idiots and calling them hypocrites.

Are you gettin all this killdeer? ( I'm sorry you lured me back in)  :scared:  

Shawn...

I've been in the same types of conversations.  I go the route of explaining how delicate the ecology is, and that man in general set it off balance, and now we have to correct it.  I also let them know that this is my way of enjoying the out doors.  I also explain that when you get away from cities, people still rely on hunting for survival. I also explain the Pittman-Robertson Act, and that these supposed Animal Rights Groups don't put a dime into the environment.  Hunting is a billion dollar industry now.  Its good for the economy!

Anti = against.  Anti Hunter = Against Hunting = Against killing of animals.  The hypocrisy is simple and obvious here  Every American in one way or anther kills animals.  Prophesing one thing and living another is hypocrisy. Anti's base their decisions on their feelings and not on the fact of how they live their lives.  

I have yet to hear of a major animal rights group or anti hunting group spending their money for the benefit of wild animals.  Yet millions are freely spend by hunters to enhance the wild animal populations.  Anti's talk a lot and do little to nothing to actually protect anything they claim to love so much.  Another example of hypocrisy.  

It endlessly amazes me how we avoid disagreement in this country.  We have become so PC that we are afraid to offend someone.  They don't like us hunting, hence the Anti hunter title.  

I was trained growing up that you call a spade a spade.  Honesty is more important than someones feeling important and right.  Particularly when the don't walk the talk.

This may have been pointed out......

Best way to shout down a anti is one simple question. Would you rather die in a few seconds from a surgical cut through the heart or be eaten alive by a pack of wolves as you slowly suffocate?(fact wolves kill by suffocation the prey animal is almost always eviscerated while still alive)

Many have pointed out humans cant run 35mph our teeth our insufficient and the question it's self is unfair.

Was it Einstein who said the definition of insanity is to do the same thing over and over and expect a different result? It is IMPOSSIBLE to live a live free of hypocrisy. ANY stance can be shown to be incongruous with one's actions if you slice and dice the argument small enough. For those who'd like to develop a more cogent explanation for why you hunt, maybe you can find some ideas here...

http://www.conservationforce.org/role.html#twoperspect

From the essay by Shane Mahoney linked above...

Truth makes a great message; not an easy one! But saving the preciousness of life is never simple. We need remember, however, that if hunters are viewed as dopes, hunting is viewed as a pastime for the dim-witted; if hunters are viewed as slobs, hunting is a wasteful debauchery; if hunters are viewed as juvenile, hunting is deemed delinquent. Only hunters can change such stereotypes. The task at hand is to articulate the relevance of hunting; not its correctness, nor its practical service to human kind. Rationalizing the mythology is both a tactical error and a diminishment of pride. Lies and excuses usually are. - Shane Mahoney.

Wolves in MN reportedly kill 15-20 deer a piece per year.  Bowhunters in MN have about a 30-50% success rate of killing one deer.  Now who is she saying has the unfair advantage over the deer?  


 :knothead:

QuoteOriginally posted by Justin Black:
"Does a Wolf use a tree stand? Or artificial scents and calls? And what about binoculars and camouflage?"

I would have simply said that a treestand is no less fair to a deer than a combine is to corn.

Simply a tool.

Man fights and hunts with superior intelligence and logic.  Man can adapt to any environment or hunting style despite having very limited physical abilities.  We have no hair to survive the arctic, we have no fangs, claws, talons, speed, or fins, but we have conquered every habitat, and can survive, because we have the ability to adapt through behavior, tools, and intellect.

To me hunting is humane and (in a way) natural.

I haven't had the pleasure...or pain of harvesting an animal with my bow yet. When it happens, friends and family will eat fresh, organic meat that is healthy and prepared well.

I would rather eat a deer or hog that was doing it's natural thing than a cow pushed into a slaughterhouse.

In my younger days I would kill....period. Not anymore. My guns have been cold for some time. I guess it's ethics.

But animal DO use disguising scents! That is why dogs and the lion/tiger kingdom like to roll in other species feces-it hides THEIR predator scent from their prey.

Would a wolf use a high point to attack it's prey? A cougar would for sure.

Ancient man used camouflage-often dressing in the skins of the animals they were stalking to get within spear striking range, many species in the animal and insect world have built in camouflage-some even construct their own.

There are MANY species who DO use fake calls and signals to lure in their prey in both the animal and insect world. Snapping turtles have a built in fishing rod and lure in their mouths.

Animals have sharper vision than we do-an eagle can see a mouse on the ground from over a mile high. How quickly did that turkey spot you BLINKING from 100 yards away? We use binoculars to enhance what we can see, but you still need to know HOW to use them to see any animal with them-they ain't a magic wand.

So EVERY one of her arguments fall on their own false premises.   :banghead:  

Don't sweat the tree huggers and anti's-someday, hopefully, they'll wake up.   :biglaugh:

I once had a non-hunting friend try and put the same sort of questions to me.

To begin with I don't consider myself on the same level as an animal kingdom predator, any of them.

1. I'm more intelligent than they are.
2. I can choose to use any one or combination of their methods.
3. I am selective as to what I choose to kill.

I hunt because I enjoy it, not because I have to hunt to survive. I enjoy the time in the wild, and I also enjoy the kill. Yes, I ENJOY the kill!
I make the decision as to whether I will kill or not, and I'm not driven to do so for survival, I'm not an opportunistic or random killer. I do so by choice. And I feel better when I make that choice. I don't know why, and I don't expect them to understand why. But even my Wife has learned that I am easier to live with when I am able to hunt and much happier and more relaxed after a hunt resulting in a kill.( She is a non-hunter and has noticed this and can't explain it. She is not an anti-hunter)

I have had anti's condemn my actions, then turn around and ask if I could provide a pig for smoking for a July 4th party.

I provided them with the means to get their own pig. They said there was no way they would kill any animal. So being the soft hearted type, I reluctantly went out and shot one myself. Then dropped it off at their house for them to clean and butcher.(that went over real big)
After that they have always bought the pig.

I won't argue with them because you can't win, They just don't seem to understand. You can give them all the facts about urban development, loss of habitat, over population and disease, and where the money for conservation comes from and they don't care. Small minds think small.

Hunt because you want to hunt! Don't think you have to justify your actions to someone that will never agree with them. The day you begin questioning whether your right or wrong, because you can't appease their way of thinking; is the day you need to either quit hunting, (because your beginning to believe their way of thought) or stop trying to rationalize with an irrational way of thinking; And just go hunt.

I have been thinkin on this one for a while; and it came to mind that back in the late 60's - a deer ran into a pump at a gas station I was at. It then took off into a parking lot in a shopping center; and kept running into cars. The police showed up; but had no idea what to do. They didn't want to shoot it with all the people around; and it darn near killed a guy when it ran into his car ( he got some food he was eating stuck in his throat).
 So - I volunteered to catch it. NO camo; no treestand; no lures or scents.
 I remember that as I chased it; one lady yelled at me : "get your dog out of the road!' ( the parking lot road).
I tackled that deer; and in the process broke its neck.
The officers gave me the deer; and I took it into the woods and field dressed it; then took it home and used the lawn hose to wash it out good; then took it to the butcher shop.    :thumbsup:

Oh yes- by golly I forgot to make the point !    :readit:

tell her to go walking through Africa with a hunk of meat strapped to her back.She will see all kinds predtors who use trees for killin.

Learning use of tools for hunting is what got us to the top of the food chain.

I once told a psychiatrist I work with: "The predatory instincts are there in all of us. If you stir them up you live: "the wild within!" The best way to describe that feeling to a non-hunter was: "It's like sex with lust and abandon as opposed to the kind psychiatrists have!"          :bigsmyl:    

I once had a relationship with a vegan who exclaimed over dinner: "That bear you murdered was a sentient creature!" I just looked at her and said: "Not anymore" and went back to eating. The point is that you'll rarely convince someone on the hard right or left position about anything and often you'll just end up in a heated argument without any gain (although I sometimes admire those who try). It's always important to keep it civil and yes you can coexist. This particular woman said she would sleep with me but never marry me as I was a hunter. Now THAT was "perfect coexistence!"         :biglaugh:    (OK, I've matured since then)!      :D

Bawana Bowman said it best. True anti's and true hunters will never see eye to eye so why try? We don't have to explain ourselves.

QuoteOriginally posted by trapperDave:
he would if he could   ;)  

Wolfs do use camoflage, they are naturally camoflaced by nature.  As far as tree stands and scents, etc..  Do they not hide behind trees and the likes or use the terain to their advantge when they hunt?  

All predators use the terain and anything else that they can to their advantage when they hunt.  We just have the advantage of oposable thumbs and advanced brains so we have a few more tools at our disposal.  Every other predator in the animal kingdom would use everything that we use to hunt with if they had the ability.

A wolf takes advantage of  every  advantage he can to put the odds in his favor. You can do the same, within the limits of the law. He hunts for survival. You hunt for food and satisfaction of some sort. The decisions you make are the ones you live with.

That said, I usually answer by saying that we are all hunter gatherers by nature. Our methods and tastes in food just vary. Some people are content to do their hunting and gathering in a grocery store, but they still go after what they want or need. They are still choosing what to take and going for what they think is the best for them. Someone else is simply doing the killing and the harvesting for us. The weapons are a shopping cart, a wallet, and a vehicle to haul it all home. One question you could ask them is this. "What would you do if you had no access to money, yet had a family, or yourself, to feed and shelter?"

What the Anti friend needs to comprehend is that even if you use scents, calls, treestands, it is never a slam dunk you will get the job done or even have the chance to.

I remember when some friends tried to use the same talk with me. It just happened to be a nice cold day in November, I asked them to follow me to the backyard, gave them my 50lb Dale Dye recurve and some arrows, put them 15 yards from the target and asked them to show me how easy it is. Then I asked them if they think it would be easier if they sat in a tree for a couple of hours and then try and hit the target. It is very easy thing to talk about it, much harder to actually accomplish it.

When confronted with this question I try to point to facts such as:  taking surplus deer that destroy the environment and are a threat to autos, donating our kills to feed the hungry, putting good clean chemical free meat in the freezer, using animals for food that weren't penned up in a small enclosure.
Mans ability to adapt to his surroundings and using tools to hunt with is our "tooth,fang and claw". If you took away our ability to do that we'd pretty much be extinct.
Fur and meat was essential for mans existence.

to me, the business of 'defending' why i hunt is simple and easy.

i am a meat eater and i enjoy eating meat.  lots of decent, intelligent human beings eat meat.  there are scientific reasons why humans need to eat the flesh of creatures.    

if you eat meat, someone had to grow and kill it.

i can, and will, kill game and make meat for eatin' far more ethically and spiritually than the processed, hormone injected, antibiotic loaded, cut 'n' wrapped meat that some peta anti buys at a local supermarket.

to those whose arguments are against eating the flesh of animate creatures - that's their call, and they shouldn't impose their religion on others.

nonsense on comparing how humans and animals capture and kill other animals.  animals, for the very most part, have NO ethics - it's simply kill to survive and perpetuate.

Hunt as the Hawk and Eagle hunt. Their eyesight is so good they do not need binoculars they are built in!

Most animals have a natural camo built in, can a puma wait for prey on a ledge,do hawks and owls sit a tree to wait for lunch,I think so. If you listen to most anti hunter logic it make no sense and can not stand up in an intellegent debate.You should not dicuss these topics with your friend if you want to stay frineds. Or, perhaps you should seek friend with like intrests.Hunting has been a part of the circle of life since the very start.........

I think you were right on to tell her that a man is a predator same as a 4 legged one.Its just how it is.This may sound over the top but I think most spiritually fit people hunt, it makes a human whole.No matter how well someone who is against hunting appears on the outside, there is something vital lacking within them, something genetic.Many are the type of people who would not defend their families against a burglar or street mugger and would give up their freedom when faced with a threat of violence.Many do not reproduce therefore without families they have nothing to lose but material goods so they preach a against the human predator prey relationship which is essential to a healthy universe.
          Hope I dont offend anyone but this is just some cazy far out stuff that entered my brain while in a treestand this past fall that has become truth to me.If I did offend your probably anti anyway so I wont lose any sleep over it.

This irks me everytime an anti tries and pulls us down to the level of an animal. We are humans. God created us to have dominion over his creation. To use and take care of His creation. We have a superior intelligence. We have figured out how to hunt with the aid of tools. The anti's just want us to be on the same level as the animal we are hunting "so they have a fair chance". Geeeeeeez.

Take your friend to the woods, set her on the ground, and let her enjoy GOD's creation! don't just try to justify what you do, show her there is so much more to this than killing! There are alot of things I could say about this, but they would definitely be off topic!! Jason

You've fallen into a trap laid by a featherweight thinker.

A hawk uses the tools it has- sits in a tree and pounced on stuff-they don't run down and hamstring things, then eat them alive.

A bear digs gophers up.

An alligator lies just under the water, grabs stuff by the leg and drowns it.

Your friend the featherweight- she shops at PathMark. She is just using mercenaries to kill for her.

dont give in to it! its in us to hunt and provide,natures way of equaling things out! a hundred years ago i bet there wasnt anti hunters trying to be nice...if they were i bet they starved! Society as a whole has been programed to ridicule what they dont understand or deem unethical, well animals have been hunted for as long as a man could pick up a rock or stick  :campfire:  
personally i cant see going to a designer coffee place and paying $6.00 for a cup of crap that doesnt even come close to being a cup of mud!!! i bet the same person eats the organic beef and eggs...bet she dosent know the organic cow still had to die to provide the beef going into her.
GEEEE'S what i wouldnt give to go back 50 to 100 years or so in time to a place where people actually knew how to live and enjoyed life for what it is, rather than the rat race we know it as now!

Snag,
Now this is the best explanation I've seen yet.
If this lady and any other anti-hunter believes in GOD and his word that's enough said. God said take thy bow, go forth, and bring meat. How much clearer can you get! That's good enough for me!
If what we do is not against GOD'S will then we owe no apologies to anyone as to why we hunt or kill.

I'm not a wolf.

"Does a wolf use a tree stand?" Nope, but raptors hunt from trees....so are they cheating?  Wolves will hunt in packs and gang up on and prey on the weak, sick, wounded, old, young and use any disadvantage that their prey has to their (the wolves) advantage. Example: deep snow, stuck on ice, stuck in the mud, locked antlers...etc. etc. You on the other hand, as a hunter of fair chase, would pass up the scenarios that don't coincide with the values of fair chase and, I presume, try and help the animal or animals out that are in a pickle.

"Do they use artificial scents and calls?" Nope, other species don't have the intelligence to manufacture things. Of course a predator wouldn't have a problem laying in ambush around a food source and attacking its prey there or raiding a nest, or preying on a female giving birth.

"What about binoculars and camouflage?" Again the answer is no when it comes to binoculars, but what disadvantage are binoculars putting an animal at? You are using a short range weapon (hunting tool) and you still have to close the gap and beat their hearing, sight and more importantly their nose. Camouflage...yes they have it and have used it to their advantage for centuries.

The simple fact of life is for one life form to live others must die. Your friend obviously likes the out of sight out of mind, hands off approach. She hasn't made it to this point of her life without the sacrifice of other creatures, whether she is big enough to admit it or not. I find her comments to be ignorant to traditional bow hunting. We as traditional bow hunters are solitary, close quarters, hunters and tricking the animals to come in close is part of the plan. Calls and scents are simple tools to help with this process. She is obviously a hook, line and sinker consumer that believes everything she reads. Just because a product is advertised to work doesn't mean it works all the time, if at all.

As a traditional bow hunter I have taken it upon myself to be aware of the consequences of my actions, and understand that the meat that I eat is not simply a lump of flesh under a plastic wrapper but life sustaining nutrition that came from a creature that died from my actions, and for this I do not apologize but instead, I give thanks.

I suggest that you read this book.     http://www.amazon.com/Politically-Incorrect-Guide-Hunting-Guides/dp/1596985216#reader_1596985216

Killdeer has said it!

Unless your friend is a vegan I really don't think she can say anything negative about hunting. I assume that she just doesn't understand how meat gets to the grocery store. Those animals are treated horrifically, fed garbage and killed in a despicable manor. If she promotes those things over hunting, which has served man just fine for our entire existence, then that is up to her.

There's a pretty good documentary on how our store bought food is grown, processed and shipped called Food Inc. I would definitely suggest watching it. It is available to watch instantly for anyone who has netflix.

I will add more later, but for now, if you are looking for an example of animals who use techniques similar to bow hunters, there are spiders who do sit quietly, motionless, camouflaged, waiting for prey, and certain species in fact fabricate (from their spinnerets) and use bolos...

"The "I hunt because I am a predator" argument doesn't hold water"
Unfortunately it usually does not, and thats unfortunate because i believe it to be true and part of the reason i hunt for food.
Its a tricky subject everyone has there "opinion".

I Guess deep down i do sometimes get offended when someone comes out with a stupid disrespectful, un true opinion on some form of hunting. I have spoken to a lot of people in length about hunting not all agree, sometime they change there views.
I make sure to always be polite and respectful when i decide to talk about hunting with an anti-hunter, i explain that i will be truthful and support my argument with FACTS and expect the same from them.

I also believe hunting to be a great management tool and often bring that up in the conversation, you often get blank meaningless points against it.

I ask questions you dont always need to burst out into a ramble about why you should hunt. Ask questions.

"Oh when did you go deer hunting?"

" on what first hand experience do you base your opinion?"  (because its usually emotion and not from experience)

" tell me sir/miss, do you know the gestation period of said animal?
when are the young born? why?
what are there habitat requirements?,
what do they eat? are they browsers, grazers perhaps? maybe both?
what is there rage?
are they an endemic species to this area?,
what depends upon them for food?, are there any species that directly depend upon them within the ecosystem they inhabit?, how about indirectly? what are they and why/how do the depend on them?  

I have yet to find a person who could answer these basic questions, do you know the answers to those questions? you should, basic questions. whys that important? well as you ask these they will soon realize they know little about said animal in question, and so will the people listening in. They will point out everyone is entitled to there opinion, and thats true but some opinions hold more value then others, they are supposed to evolve as you learn more. Preferably from first hand experience withing the field.
who is more qualified to manage the sustainable future of the said animal and the ecosystem in which it lives? how can someone in an office block in London or New york dictate how we should managed our wildlife? How can someone who has never been hunting tell you not to take part in it? tell you its wrong? Cruel? Based on what?

ask the anti hunter " you wouldn't walk into a heart surgeons operating room and tell him how to do his work? of course not...why wouldn't you? because your not qualified?

and based on the fact they now realize they know nothing about the animals which you hunt and manage their opinion is not all as valid as they first thought.

best to lead by example, on our property in South Africa we had a great first hand example, I have taken many anti hunters, vegetarians into the bush and show them,
the trees and grasses are endemic to the area (ill name them), the animal herds where managed in line with the carrying capacity of the land 9ill explain what carrying capacity is and how its calculated), the land is sustaining all the animals needs naturally, we never need to bring in food from outside even in low rainfall periods because we'd planned for that possibility when determining the carrying capacity.
I would explain how we could hunt the animals that lived of this untouched land and the many purposes and uses that animals death, in management, meat as food, the hunt as an enjoyment a lesson and way of life.  
I would then point across our boundary at the huge Center pivot lands, with tomatoes, potatoes, onions....id say "that land used to look like this, how many trees can you see over there now? its been clear felled, plowed, irrigation pipes cut through the land like a bad vine, chemicals, fertilizers, pesticide's, pumped in every year again and again, that land has been raped! for what, a tomato? for you to eat? then ill turn back around to the beautiful bushveld and the animals that live there and say "there's the food i choose to eat, there's the land as i wish to see it.
On the spot iv have people apologize, change there views, go hunting with me the next day, cry.

Many people have become so physically, mentally, and spiritually removed from Nature, they fail to see Her as She is. They live in cities where Nature, if She even exists there, is a tree struggling to survive on a streetside. They get their ideas about Nature from Disney.

They don't see the Raven who plucks the young, struggling nestlings of other birds from the nest and eats them alive. This, too, is Nature, and this, too, has the dark beauty of the Hunter.

They don't see the Coyote pack that darts in to eat the just-born young of antelope. This, too, is Nature, and this, too, is part of the Cycle where life feeds on life and none escape this Cycle.

They don't see the Mountain Lion that tears out the throat of the deer, for he, too, must eat. This, too, is Nature, and the wail of the Mountain Lion is the song by which Nature's will is sung.

They don't see the Wolf pack that surrounds the elk too slow to keep up with the herd. For this, too, is Nature and the beauty of that which it is not for us to understand, but to accept.

This is how I look at hunting:

On Eating and Drinking
Kahlil Gibran

Would that you could live on the fragrance of the earth, and like an air plant be sustained by the light.
But since you must kill to eat, and rob the newly born of its mother's milk to quench your thirst, let it then be an act of worship.
And let your board stand an altar on which the pure and the innocent of forest and plain are sacrificed for that which is purer and still more innocent in man.


When you kill a beast say to him in your heart,
"By the same power that slays you, I too am slain; and I too shall be consumed.
For the law that delivered you into my hand shall deliver me into a mightier hand.
Your blood and my blood is naught but the sap that feeds the tree of heaven."


And when you crush an apple with your teeth, say to it in your heart,
"Your seeds shall live in my body,
And the buds of your tomorrow shall blossom in my heart,
And your fragrance shall be my breath,
And together we shall rejoice through all the seasons."


And in the autumn, when you gather the grapes of your vineyards for the winepress, say in your heart,
"I too am a vineyard, and my fruit shall be gathered for the winepress,
And like new wine I shall be kept in eternal vessels."
And in winter, when you draw the wine, let there be in your heart a song for each cup;
And let there be in the song a remembrance for the autumn days, and for the vineyard, and for the winepress.

Why doesn't a wolf use tree stands, lures, bows, etc?
Because he has no thumbs.

Why do wolves systematically hunt in packs, kill young animals, & strickly adhere to social heirarchy? Bowhunters don't.

Psychosis is inability to make a rational decision. It results in the grey area of uncertainty which allows the absurdity of Poitical Correctness. Choose either right or wrong. Either Man has Dominion over animals, fish, birds, & every living thing (plants are living things), or not. If not, don't eat them.

I don't believe we have "dominion" over anything. By that argument, E. Coli 0157;H7, certain cancers, certain viruses, tectonic plates, volcanoes, and the weather have dominion over us since they can pretty much kill us with impunity.

I believe we're part of Nature. The "dominion" argument doesn't sway many antis. In fact, it tends to actually bolster their arguments. Because if we have dominion, they say, then we have a responsibility to care for them and a moral obligation to not kill them. It isn't Political Correctness that people don't believe in dominionism; it's a differing belief system. Political Correctness might even be said to be never saying we kill animals and using other words like "harvesting" instead.

Our use of such advantages does not even bring us close to other predators, with their senses and the fact they hunt 24-7 with no limitations set by man.

Dogs and wolfs do use cover scents. Thats why they will roll in a dead animal or a cow pie. And hunters do not play with their pray before killing it like dogs,wolfs and coyotes . Cats do the same stuff.By cats Thats the big ones also. Life is crule.I think its best not to argue with them . Wonder what died for her lipstick?.

Tsal;

With due respect, arguments against Man's top of the foodchain are simply attempts to promote alternatives to reality. Are we legitimate in our right to eat living things? Yes/no? If not what is your alternative? Muddying the water only confuses anyone without a belief system. Call it whatever you like.

QuoteOriginally posted by Ray Hammond:
You've fallen into a trap laid by a featherweight thinker.

A hawk uses the tools it has- sits in a tree and pounced on stuff-they don't run down and hamstring things, then eat them alive.

A bear digs gophers up.

An alligator lies just under the water, grabs stuff by the leg and drowns it.

Your friend the featherweight- she shops at PathMark. She is just using mercenaries to kill for her.

Ray said it. Any preadator uses the tools that they are provided. We have tools and we use them very well.


Andy you put that very well also. I have done very similar things and aske very similar questions. I to have had people turn around and say ok I see your way is not all wrong. They may not shoose it but seldom do they continue to tell me I am wrong.

Straitera,

Also, with all due respect, in my belief system, we're not necessarily the "top" of anything; but a part of it. In my beliefs, if I am out hunting and a bear eats me, that's proper and right as I went into Nature as Hunter, and play by those rules. I eat, therefore I hunt, therefore I kill. That's not an alternative to reality; it might be an alternative to the reality that you live in, which is fine. My reality has a different belief and one that my Ancestors lived by.

 The reason we are right to eat living things is because that is how this world works. I'm not naive and I don't believe we can eat without killing, regardless of what form the life we take in incarnated in. It isn't muddying the water. Rather, it's seeing the water for what it is and accepting it as it is without the need to filter it so it looks better.

 I don't believe in dominionism as that everything is a subject to us as if we are monarchs. I believe that life feeds on life and that is the way the world works, regardless of what belief system you hold. I need not even justify eating on a belief system; a digestive tract works well with or without a belief system. The belief system is how we deal with the moral, ethical, and Spiritual repercussions of having killed living beings to eat. That's important and, I agree, without belief systems people can become confused, to say the least. Here, I wholeheartedly agree with you, for I am not arguing against a belief system, I am merely saying there are other belief systems, too.

We are not neccesarily at the top of the food chain now that we know that certain microscopic beings feed on us. One might even say there isn't a food chain, but a food circle with the smallest consuming the biggest which then becomes food for the next and so forth. I think all these things are beautiful and if you must know, evidence of higher powers.

With that, I respect your beliefs and this is a very interesting discussion.

 :clapper:

these are all good facts, but the problem is is that facts and logic do not sway these people because they have an emotional fantasy view of nature, where the the life of a deer is somehow nobler than that of a Hereford steer. They believe that animals think and reason just like we do and that it really matters to an animal whether it is killed with a pnuematic stun gun in a slaughter house or takes an arrow through both lungs. One of their favorite arguments is that cows are raised to be food as if they have come to accept their fate while the noble deer "choses" to run free. It is almost useless to even argue with these people. if you really want to turn the tide, teach your kids to hunt and fish. Bring the nieghbor kids along. there are plenty of non hunting adults who arent anti- hunting, they were just never taught about the outdoord by thier parent. take the opportunity to show them how to enjoy all the outdoor life has to offer. Think of it as bowhunting evangelism. We need to reach those who have never held a bow,or experienced the mgic of an arrow hitting "right where tou were looking". An alarming number of outdoorsmen (and women) arent teaching our kds if we dont turn it around know we will soon be just a handfull that will be easy to get rid of. Already in my state we are seeing the instances of the state and local government hiring professional wildlife control experts(hired guns) to "handle" deer populations in parks and developments. I will shut up now and go take my blood pressure medicine

I would tell her I like eating them and killing them is the easest way to catch them.  :D  I don't waste time taking to people that think an animal is a person or something myself.I could care less what there ideas of the world are.Mine are what I live by and the only ones that will ever count in my eyes anyway.  :biglaugh:

QuoteOriginally posted by Justin Black:
I was talking to an anti-hunting friend yesterday (yes we can coexist)and the conversion got around to hunting, ethics and whats fair and so on. We usually try to avoid such topics (hunting in general) as we never can agree on such things. But this time it just came up and I must admit she said some things that really got me a thinkin.
I started huntin big game 10 years ago and what I do and how I do it has changed a great deal in that time. This ain't a confessional so I won't go into detail, but let me just say that I have done some things in the field that make me feel  pretty pathetic. I mention this to point out that I like to think I have realised my wrongs and done my best to mend my ways. I felt I had become an ethical hunter. But after talking to my friend I am not so sure.
One of her first questions was why do I hunt? I told her because man is a predator no different than a Wolf, Bear, Cougar etc. And this is where she stumped me. "Does a Wolf use a tree stand? Or artificial scents and calls? And what about binoculars and camouflage?"
Hmmmmm. Well I honestly couldn't think of a single thing to say to that. And I still can't. And you know, perhaps she has a point. What do you folks think?

I would tell your friend that animals use whatever they can, and to stop anthropomorphizing.

Wild animals don't make ethical decisions.  We make ethical decisions because we have the ability to look beyond ourselves.  Comparing the decision making of a human to that of a wolf is silly.

What's the difference between a vegetarian and a meet eater? Three days without food.
 :eek:    :smileystooges:    :knothead:    :help:

When it comes to anti hunters or animal rights loons, I don't even bother defending my hunting or trying to explain why hunting is as natural as eating & sleeping to me. Even if they got it or were open minded enough to try to understand, they won't accept it anyway...