Anyone that knows me knows I'm not exactly a stranger to flemish strings. I haven't kept an accurate count, but I know in the last few years I've averaged making at least 1,000 strings a year or more, mostly flemish.
Over the years, I've heard a blurb here and there about some bowyers that recommend against using a flemish string--some very strongly. However, I've yet to hear a reasonable explanation as to why--could someone fill me in?
Since he's no longer in the business of making bows, I'll mention one name--which happens to be the most recent I heard about--Jack Harrison. Does anyone know his reasoning, or what anyone else has said? Has anyone actually done any tests to prove anything?
Chad
Chad,
I can't think of one feasible reason why a Flemish string would be any worse for a bow than an endless loop.
Perhaps the flemish will stretch a little more but that in itself isn't going to be bad for the bow.
I too would be very interested in hearing any arguments against their use. If anything I would expect these bowyers to be condoning the use of FF materials more than the method of producing the string. And lets face it, the string itself no matter how it's made or what it's made from is inherently bad for the bow. The load and stress the string causes is not something the wood is naturally meant to deal with, maybe this is what their talking about.
That's what I'm trying to find out. What I've heard (some straight from the bowyer, some not) was different reasons to not use a flemish string (no mention of material), some I've just heard were against it but I didn't hear the reason(s).
I'm not the most technical minded, but from what I can tell a well made string is a well made string, endless or flemish. Just trying to sort out some myths that I hear from time to time.
I'm all ears on this one.......
Chad,
Maybe Justin Newell or Leo will chime in because that is what Jack would recommend if my memory serves me correct. Jack is still making some bows. tom
Chad,
I got to thinking about this and the explanation I got was that the preferred string on his bows was an 8125 non twisted as this got the greatest speed vs twisted.
makes no sense at all to me, chad.
flemish or endless, both real good string types, each with good qualities.
i'd also like to know just what folks, and why, recommend against using flemish twist strings.
The story I've heard is that some bowyers blame limb twist on a flemish twist string. I've heard it at shows while listening to bowyers sell there bows.
I've never seen a difference myself.
Mike
Flemish or endless, the string will still pull center of nock. The gap at the loop would not have enough leverage to twist limbs. Even if it would, and endless loop string will be twisted when shot to acquire to right brace hight for the bow. I prefer flemish strings simply for the looks, but I cannot see only style being better than the other.
Chad, thanks to you and your CD on making strings "Doing the Twist" I have learned how to make flemish strings the way my dad did 60 years ago. I now make them for family and friends for free.
I can't imagine there is a good reason not to use a flemish made string.
Thanks again to you for your help.
Jon
If the loop is locked properly, there is no twist to the limb from the string. And, if the string nock (notch) is smooth and well cut, there wouldn't be an issue even if it did. Strange statement for sure.
Yep it had me scratching my head too. But heck you hear and read a lot of things that just leave ya wondering.
Mike
I am not a bowyer,but as a shooter I used flemish strings for 20 years without any issue.I love them and they are easyer to acheive a wanted brace high on the bow.They are what I like and keep using them also if my bow can last only 100 years
Chad,
I got to thinking about this and the explanation I got was that the preferred string on his bows was an 8125 non twisted as this got the greatest speed vs twisted.
sorry about that....got distracted.
I do not want to speak for Leo, but if I remember right what he told me when I bought a bow from him was the flemish, due to the twisting aspect of the string, will have longer strands than the endless - the longer the strand the more the stretch upon release - the more stretch the more energy lost and not put into the arrow - more energy lost results in a less efficient setup.
Like many others I am not a good enough archer to tell the difference so I shoot what I feel like.
I'm still looking for that "more stretch" in the 450+ string I have on my Necedah. It hasn't moved in two months 8^). Que sera, sera.
Here 's the argument in Jack's words from his book "The Traditional Bowyer, More Unnecessary Fun", pages 414-415.
"When I first discussed bowstrings in Chapter Five, I made the claim that a continuous-loop bowstring was a better choice for a traditional bow than a Flemish-twist bowstring. I mentioned I had conducted several tests in which I compared a longbow shot with both types of bowstrings. A bow strung with a continuous-loop bowstring shot the same arrow an average of eight to ten feet per second faster than a bow strung with a Flemish-twist bowstring. I also noted there was more hand shock and vibration with a Flemish-twist bowstring. Even though the continuous-loop bowstring was noisier, it was not so noisy as to be a detriment to bowhunting. Even with silencers made from beaver fur, the continuous-loop bowstring was faster and as quiet as the Flenmish-twist bowstring. Consequently, I have always recommended using a continuous-loop bowstring on all models of my bows.
"Furthermore, I advocate using Fast Flite as the choice of string material...Fast Flite stretches less....I even determined if the Flemish-twist bowstring was made with FastFlight, it was still not as effective as a FastFlight continuous-loop style bowstring.
"Finally, as a point of trivial history, it became vogue to shoot Flemsish-twist bowstrings as a desperate attempt for some over-zealous apologists to return to "tradition" when compound bows came into being. Historically, most fiberglass-backed recurves and longbows made between the end of World War II through the early 1960s were supplied with continuous-loop bowstrings by their manufacturers, not Flemish-twist strings....
"In my opinion, a continuous-loop style bowstring is the traditional bowstring for fiberglass-backed longbows and recurves."
There you have it. I'm not sure I buy into his reasoning or results though.
To my way of thinking there are two types of stretch occurring to a string.
First, is the stretch of a string while shooting it in. For me this happens with a flemish string because of the twisting of the string material in the loops and string itself settling in to each other - once settled in the stretching no longer occurs.
Second, is when the energy stored in the limbs is transferred to the string and then passed on to the arrow. As the string moves forward due to energy applied, it stretches before returning to its resting state.
Thanks Orion--that's the stuff I was looking for.
What he said is, at best, inaccurate. Everything being equal, there's no way there's 8-10 fps difference. Maybe (big maybe) if you took a really poorly made flemish that isn't shot in yet and compared it to a well made endless you could get that kind of difference--I don't know. Compare apples to apples, no way. Apples to apples, they should be neck in neck. If not, there are differences that haven't been taken into account other than one being flemish and the other endless. Properly made, an endless should have a few twists in it also! :scared:
Oh well....at least I'm "in style" with a flemish string, although I had no idea I was an "over-zealous apologist". :biglaugh:
Please don't take that personally Orion--I do appreciate you filling us in, and I don't mean any of that as a slight towards you.
Maybe he knows how to build a bow, but obviously he don't know much about strings.....too funny.... :D
Chad,
I have owned several of Jacks bows and I have shot them with the supplied endless and just because, I have made 450+ flemish strings and shot them with that. I could tell no diffenence, I prefer a flemish myself.
Danny
I prefer flemish myself, but my goal here is to learn what is being said and hopefully dispell some myths.
Not sure, but I think I have an endless on my bowfishing bow right now. I make both, and I shoot both (I do shoot flemish more). I don't want folks to think I have an agenda for one or against the other, or some kind of agenda against anyone's bows. Jack's bows have a great reputation, I just can't understand the misinformation on strings.
Funny thing, most of the other bowyers with similar opinions--at least the ones I've heard of--also have great reputations. I can't figure it out, except I know one of the ones I am thinking of was trained by one of the others.
I would love to see how the "tests" were performed. Not everyone has the equipment to give a non-bias comparison. JMO
Chad What I got out of Jack's words that Orion posted is he used a FF endless and compared it to a Dacron flemish, And IMO the endless was tuned and the flemish was just thrown own.
Also a question I have is how old are these statements, I may have changed my mind on at least one thing in 25 years!!!!!
enjoy
Blueline -- Nope. Read it again. He compared Fastflite against dacron with both endless loop and flemish strings.
The book was published in 2005
LBR, I provided the info for everyone's edification and discussion. Jack is one of the few to put his views in print. A courageous fellow. I didn't say I subscribe to these particular views though. In fact, I don't. His book is a good read though and a wealth of information.
Go ahead and beat me up for this...
Jack seems to have a lot of opinions and test results that back those opinions up. Strange thing is, noone else seems to get the same test results.
QuoteI even determined if the Flemish-twist bowstring was made with FastFlight, it was still not as effective as a FastFlight continuous-loop style bowstring.
I dunno how old the statements are, but that came from his book which was published a few years ago? I also recieved (via e-mail) information that was sent out with his bows--said some of the same stuff. It even went as far as voiding the warranty if a flemish OR dacron (endless or flemish) string was used.
He may have changed his mind since the book was published--I dunno--but the information given is incorrect.
QuoteI would love to see how the "tests" were performed.
Me too. Test results can be skewed if you don't make sure everything is equal, use a shooting machine, etc. Even different sizes of serving on the strings can affect results.
I can't say his results didn't show 8-10 fps difference, but I know that doesn't correllate with other tests I've read and talked to folks about, and the handshock thing goes against my personal experience.
FWIW, it kind of goes with what I've seen over the years. Some of the nicer bows I've seen on the racks had some of the most awful strings I've ever seen. I never understood why someone would put a $3 string on a $1,000 bow.
LBR - "FWIW, it kind of goes with what I've seen over the years. Some of the nicer bows I've seen on the racks had some of the most awful strings I've ever seen. I never understood why someone would put a $3 string on a $1,000 bow."
Ain't that the truth! ;)
Seems like nothing helps improve bow performance better than a good string.
Like many on here I buy a fair number of bows. Very few bows arrive with a string I like. In fact I have started telling bowyers to forget the string.
Personally, EL strings only go on my 50 year old classic bows-and just for 'the look'. Everything else gets FT strings-they just handle so much better.
Bowyers blaming strings is beyond amazing!
Well, a few minutes ago I got off the phone with the guy I call when I have a technical question about strings. He's the only person I know that's made more strings than I have (a lot more), and has done extensive testing (shooting machine and chrony).
Long story short, gobs have tests have proven one thing. All else being equal (nock fit, draw length, arrow weight, etc.) two strings that weigh the same will shoot the same speed--doesn't matter if they are endless vs. flemish, or dacron vs. Dynaflight.
Still, I'm scratching my head wondering where some of these guys got their "information"?
LBR just a thought a FT with the same strand count as a EL would be heaver on the ends of the string and in that case would steal some energy from the limbs. Just a thought.
I'd thought about that WT, but there's two things to consider there. One, weight on the very ends of the string make a minimal, if any difference and, two, the endless strings have the weight of the serving on the ends that flemish doesn't. It's pretty much a trade off there.
Hey look on the bright side of this, in the world according to Jack if we all switch to endless strings we can expect another 8 to 10 fps. Everybody to his own thing.....
While I'm thinking of it, has anyone ever seen any "B-60" string material?
This is from the paperwork that came with a Harrison longbow.
"Strings that stretch, e.g. B-50 and B-60 in Flemish style strings are the worst to use on contemporary epoxy laminated longbows of any design and especially Black Wolf bows."
I've never seen or heard of "B-60". Can someone fill me in?
QuoteOriginally posted by Running Buck:
Hey look on the bright side of this, in the world according to Jack if we all switch to endless strings we can expect another 8 to 10 fps. Everybody to his own thing.....
Yeah, when pigs fly :)