Trad Gang

Why spend $1000+ on a custom bow when you can buy a Bear or Martin that performs just as well for half the price?  Most production bows also look great and last for decades. What do you think?

i like the feeling that the bow you get was made specifically for me it just feels better

Who the heck would spend 1000+ on a custom bow?  You can put everything you can think of on one of ours for $700.  And buy a basic model for the same as the production bow.

Mike

:campfire:

I have never understood the higher prices of bows. Same materials, same construction in my opinion your paying for a name.

Now when you start getting high polished finishes and the like - THEN i completely understand your paying for the labor in finishing. But again a satin finished bow shoots as well as a high polished one - without the added cost.

Its upto the bowyer to make the bow stable, smooth and consistant - fast is good too - but speed means nothing without the first three. I'd rather sell four 300.00 bows in a month then one 1000.00 bow personally.

:bigsmyl:  
F-Manny

I think design is the key...some bows shoot better than others... some bowyers have put alot of time and effort in developing a stable, quiet, quick shooting bow and then add very good fit and finish to it.... Ive had production bows that shoot better than some customs...but the firefly i have now is one that i would have no problem paying extra for......dont tell Jim that...  :biglaugh:

I like my custom bows and would rather spend money to support my custom bowyers then big manufacturers who don't know me from Dick or Jane.

Yep there is something about being able to pick up the phone and talk with the guy thats building a bow for me. They can build the grip just perfect for me,Make the bow length perfect for me,poundage and so on. You can also get some very good custom made bows at production bow cost. That said I have never really had any major issue with any production bow I have owned in the past. The most important thing is a bow fits you, you shoot it well, and you like it.

I'm pretty sure this is the FIRST time this topic has came up....bout time I say !

Now everyone has a new topic to comment on    :)

Not to stir the pot on this...

After shooting production bows for most of my archery life,I can tell you there IS a difference.A large one.I love my silvertip.

 ;)

"Factory Bows": Good performers for the money.  

"Custom Bows":  Custom laminates, custom handles, specific draw weights, specific tillering, superior fit & finish, personalized service. NOT THAT MUCH MORE $$$!!!   :thumbsup:  

My 2 cents worth...

Production Bows vs. Custom Bows is like the age old Apples vs. Oranges debate. They are NOT the same in many ways that I will elect not to mention here. That being said...

The man behind the bow is the key to good, accurate shooting. If you are a new-bee to trad there is no way a $1000 bow will make you shoot any better than a fella at it for years with a yard sale production bow. I read somewhere that the ARROW being matched and tuned to the bow is most important.

Then again I just dig some of those custom jobs out there but won't bring myself to spend alot of $$$ on the "high-end" stuff anymore. That's why I'll grab 'em here used on Trad Gang.....   :rolleyes:  

... mike ... Missing my Martin Dream Catcher ...  :(

A guy who knows what he is doing with the Martin Hunter, will outshoot an also-ran with a fancy custom made.

You pay for work, woods, fit and finish. If it's worth extra to you, than buy it.  There are lots of reasonably priced customs as well.

I bought two customs, one for the wife and one for me.  Love them and just ordered the wife another one from the same bowyer.  I picked a bowyer close to home.  I visit his shop to pick up and order bows. This way we get face to face customer service and really enjoy interacting with him.  The extra touches, being able to pick the woods we want, and personal interaction and direct customer service made it well worth paying the high price for the bows.  I paid $825 for my take down.  It is absolutely gorgeous, shoots great, is smooth as silk, has no stacking thru the full draw length, and is deadly quiet.  

For me custom was the only way find a bow that fit me.  Make no mistake, if a factory bow at half the price fit me, I would have gone that route.  Lots of great factory bows out there.  I just prefer having a perfect fit with the personal touches.  I have no intention of ever selling the bow, and I am ordering a second one as a back up with different wood here shortly.

If you don't want to spend the extra money for a custom bow great,...but as for me they are worth every penny extra for a custom bow.
In fact some are under priced for the time and effort it takes to produce one....IMO
But to each his own.

Ken

It comes down to personal preference. I like seeing my money go to the little guy over a large factory. Buy the best you can afford it's just money you can't take it with you when you die. So shoot what you like and enjoy!

QuoteOriginally posted by raideranch:
Why spend $1000+ on a custom bow when you can buy a Bear or Martin that performs just as well for half the price?  

Because quite a few do not perform the same, also you dont have to spend $1000 on a custom bow you can get a custom bow for half that.

thats the beauty of archery mate, you can shoot whatever bow YOU want    :thumbsup:

Well, because some custom bowyers will do a trade if you have something you want. The factories don't do trades. And having something unique and exactly the way you want it is a quality all its own.

QuoteWhy spend $1000+ on a custom bow when you can buy a Bear or Martin that performs just as well for half the price?  

Last time I looked you can spend $1,000 on a Bear, and Martin has been working on closing the gap.

If you know where to look, you can get a custom bow for the same or less money than most any Bear or Martin--new, not used.  The down-side is the wait.

I personally have never spent near $1,000 on a single bow (although I have owned several that retailed in that range), and I don't plan to.  I don't give up anything in the performance, durability, craftsmanship, or warranty categories either.

I prefer custom bows due to my draw length.  Most all "over the counter" bows stack well before I reach anchor.  Besides that, I can get a bow made for me, much nicer looking (IMO), in my choice of several different options, for less money than a comparable "over the counter" bow.  I have bows to shoot so, although I don't like to wait, I can stand it.

Chad

Spot on LBR - $1000 for a mass produced Bear makes me scratch my head.  Don't mean to bash anyone who has paid that for a new Bear if that is what you liked and what you wanted.

This is partly why I got into making my own.  I refuse to pay that much for a factory bow, but still can't afford a lot of the customs I like.

And that factory, like Martin or Bear, takes care of lots of working folks who make those bows as well.....most of them with domestic woods like maple and birch.  Your money does as well right there too.  Let's study some economics people.

I look at the other way around.  How the H$!! do mass produced bow companies justify a price anywhere near what a custom bow costs?  Take a look at the Bear bows in stores today.  The fit and finish is a joke.  Martin bows are the only "production" bows I know of with good craftsmanship but they cost just as much as the average custom bows.

I think it's a pretty small percentage of custom bows that break the $1,000 mark.  Most run $400 to $600 and some you can get for less than that.  

I like going to the bowyers house, picking out the wood pieces, shooting some of his in stock bows and getting input on wood combinations or anything else related to the design of the bow.  Then, down the road if you have any problems, you also have an actual person to contact.  The odds of him making good for you on the deal are better too.

I was reading a while back where a guy said he preferred a big bow company (Samik) so that if he had a problem they could just send him another bow from stock instead of him having to wait for a replacement to be built by a custom bowyer.   I guess that is his right but for me, once I've owned a bow or gun, it is mine.  If something happens, I want THAT bow or gun fixed and back in my possession, not just another one pulled off a rack and mailed to me.  That's okay for tools or appliances or something like that but to me, bows are far more personal.  If a bow is not salvageable, I will gladly go back through the process again with the bowyer to have him make another bow that will be MINE and special to me.  Only had to do that once and I still wish to this day I'd have been able to keep the first bow just to hang on the wall.

If you want a high dollar custom, just wait until one comes-up with your specs on the classifieds for about half price.

That's true Mr.Magoo, a large percentage go there and they are the big names as well.  

Dave, it can be discussed into oblivion of course, to no one's satisfaction.  We grew up only having factory bows....bowyers were like hen's teeth...and we shot some beautiful bows, and the sale from those bows took care of lots of families.  There is no right or wrong in this debate, there are only choices.  I see that as a good thing.

Cabellas currently lists the Martin Savannah for $529.99.  

After I finished adding stuff to my custom HH Halfbreed made from the wood I wanted, tipped with the antlers I wanted, handle wrapped with the leather I wanted, crafted to the exact length, weight and draw length I specified, I think I spent $550 or $575 - something like that.

I'd not deride the Savannah for a second, but I think I got my money's worth with the HH (and then some).

I dont OWN a Brandly New Bow from Either Place!! My "Used" Bows Shoot Just as Well as the $1,000.00 Bow, and the Whole Stable of Bows I Own, I KNOW I dont have $1,000 Invested!! I Love Every One of My Bows, but am ALWAYS on the Lookout!!

Martin Savannah - list price: $569.99

Martin Viper - list price: $769.99

Bear Takedown Supreme - list price: $1399.99

Bear Kodiak Supreme - list price: $999.99

Bear Patriot - list price: $499.99

All production bows.

JK Traditions Kanati custom longbow - list price: $475.00

Dryad Orion custom three piece longbow or recurve - list price: $550.00

Lost Creek custom longbows - list price $450.00 shipped.


There are lots of custom bows available for equal or lower prices than quality production bows. The difference is not the price. The difference is the fit and the knowledge that the bow was built just for you. We have lots of great custom bowyers, many of whom are members or sponsors here. I have nothing against production bows, but if we don't support our custom bowyers, all we'll have is production bows. Could we get by with that, probably, but what fun would that be?

I agree with George, a skilled archer with a production bow will out shoot an unskilled one with a custom bow. The same would be true in reverse as well. I shoot better with a bow that fits me well. My custom bows fit me and cost less than lots of production bows.

Would I spend $1000 on a bow, custom or production...probably not. I don't have to.

it is easy question for me.  I want a 64" longbow with a bullet proof riser.  I would not exactly call me traditional by todays standards.  I want a bow that is very adaptable.  scroll down the page to the camo'ed bow.  that is mine.  Mike re-enforced the riser so it would stand the extra stress I put on the riser string walking.  I wanted sight and stabilizer bosses on it......I wanted a 1960's bow  :) .  the great thing about a custom bow is that you get to work with the bowyer.  

I would venture that this bow and I are are very close to what traditional was in the hayday of what traditional really is  :)

http://sites.google.com/site/stringwalkerbowhunter/dryadorion

rusty

I looked for a production bow for quite a while to get what I wanted;  a 40-45lb@30", and I could not find anything.  Seems like all the production bows are made for the average size shooter with a 28" draw.  The bow would have had to be under 40lbs@28" in order to fit my needs.  Finally I had Tradbowyer build me one, and for $200 at that!

Most people in favor of custom bows only comment with feel good answers with no meat.    Do you need to spend your money at a backyard bower because you are anti-factory?  Most people building bows at a custom bower or factory probably shoot them and enjoy the sport.   Do you really need a #53 draw instead of the #50 or #55?  Probably not.  Want a specific bow?  The only options you are going to get from a custom bower that you can't get from a production are related to looks.

What the factory bows list there bows at is a lot more than what you can actually get them for.  I recently purchased a brand new Martin Bamboo Viper on **** for less than half its MSRP.  I would love to see a custom bow out perform it.

QuoteThe only options you are going to get from a custom bower that you can't get from a production are related to looks.

That is incorrect.  I think you can get some customization from Martin, but I don't know of any other "over the counter" bow that offers any.

A couple of big ones to me are you can get is a grip made to your specs and limbs tillered to your specs/draw length.  I really dislike most "factory" grips.  As I said before, almost every otc bow I've shot stacked well before I got to anchor.  I can also get variations in the crown/radius of the shelf, how deep it's cut, inserts......besides little things that personalize the bow whether it shoots better or not--and for the same money or less than a comparable otc bow.  The only drawback is I can't get it as quick.

I think some otc bows have gotten better over the last couple years.  I think the big advantige in Custom is in the longer draws.  Example I draw 29.5 inches on my longbows most of the custom bows I've shot and owned have offered a smoother draw out to my draw.  But again there have been improvements a fine example is I was lookinig at the new Bear Montana longbows. A friend of mine has an older one when still 68" the difference in the draw between his and the new one was HUGE (in the same draw wht.)  That being said I've never paid over $500 for my custom bows either.  so what does this all mean to me.  Well now almost anyone can find a nice traditional bow that fits the hand, draw, and wallet!!

One thing I need to clarify from my first post.  When I said I thought Martin was the only production bow with quality fit and finish, I was talking about current production.  I've got at least 15 older recurves like Bear, Pearson, Wing, Blackhawk (Cravotta Bro's), Root, Herters and I'm sure some others and all are very well made and finished.  It is the current line up of bows being made today that are machine made with huge tip overlays and blocky risers that I feel are overpriced for what you get.

30Coupe's post pretty much reflects my experience.  You can get a full custom bow for the same or less than many production bows.

But heck, I buy most of my bows used.  Of all my recurves I have, I know I paid less than $100 for each of them and less than $80 for most of them.

My "go to" bow is a custom longbow that I got new and is just about the only bow I ever shoot for whatever that's worth.

The time and effort these guys spend on these custome bows that are over $1,000 are well worth the price. I have shot some of those production bows and really there is no comparision at all.

Like many here I have had my share of both. These days I am into customs and can't think of a production bow I might lust after. I like knowing who made it and definitely like having a say in the finished product. As for cost? Production bows are overpriced.   :bigsmyl:

I started out with a take down production bow as a new trad shooter last year.  That bow served me fine and I got 2 deer with it.  After shooting it for a little over a year I noticed the limbs would get out of alignment.  The place where the limbs bolt onto the riser had worn just a tiny bit but it was enough to throw the limbs out of wack.

It cost less than $200 brand new, got me started in trad and got 2 deer for me.  Bottom line is it didn't last very long.

On the other hand I have a Bear Kodiac Magnum that was given to me and it is over 30 years old.  Still shoots like a champ.  It only pulls 38 @28" so I can't hunt with it here but it shoots very well.

This year I bought a custom bow from a well known boyer here in AR.  Shoots great, smooth and if anything goes wrong with it I only have to drive an hour to chat with the man that made it.

My custom bow ain't that fancy and I love my Kmag.

To me it is all about how a bow shoots.I could care less who or where it is built.A good bow is one that fits you,shoots well and will do the job you want to use it for.I am not much for buying bows for art work and if it is one I really like it will get some camo spray paint on it so looks are not important to me and don't justify the cost many custom bowyers charge for fluff. My bows are just tools that need to work and I will not wait months to buy one any more than I would do so to buy a screw driver.  :)  jmo. jmo

QuoteOriginally posted by Bowkill7:
The only options you are going to get from a custom bower that you can't get from a production are related to looks.

Well that and a bow tillered correctly for one's draw length.  Mine is 29 (could get by with a factory bow, sure) and another poster mentioned his was 30.

Why spend as much or more for a factory bow that will do, when you can get a custom bow exactly like you want if for comparable cash?

:campfire:

I think it is a personal choice of what you want in a bow,I have both custom and production bows.Just because a custom bow cost more doesn't mean it will shoot better then a production bow.My Martins shoot just as good or better then my custom bows.Most people like custom bows because it is made just for them,me included.For me I just love traditional bows and shooting them.I have over 20 longbows and need another one like I would need a hole in my head,but I just had to order me a new Zipper SXT just the way I wanted one.

Put it this way, I wouldn't trade you my $1000 Morrison for 10 $100 Martins  ;)

Production bows are 'One Size Fits Most' Custom bows are 'This Size Fits You'

Not everybody is suited to a lot of production bows either. For those of us with longer drawlengths many, many proddy bows are simply unsuitable due to stacking. Not all mind you, just a good enough percentage that it can often work out cheaper to buy 1 custom that you know is right than several proddys that turn out to be no good. If you live near a good store with plenty of bows to try, great. If not, say because you live in a different country (  ;)  ) you can waste a lot of cash via other people's opinion & mail order.

Great trolling....

As for an answer, neither of the two you mentioned will pull properly to my 32"+ draw.

FWIW - Both of my customs added together are only slightly above your listed amount....

I'm starting to feel bad for my poor Martin Mamba sitting in the rack.  I think I'll take it hunting this evening.

Most bowyers are very knowledge people that love their job try to improve their design and ability. For a custom bowyer is much more easy to make some changes and improvements of what it is for a bigger company.Most of them stand behind their product,use better material and put their faces on what they make. Rather than buying a factory bow I buy a old Bear or Martin,much better than the current models and at a much lower cost.

I loved my old production bows. They served their purpose. But when I started shooting custom bows there was a noticable difference in performance and handshock. AS far as George's economic lesson, I prefer to support one family making custom bows then a CEO of a large manufacturer who is doling out the pay and not focused solely on traditional archery.

Bought a custon Timberhawk for $550 to my specs and it shoots like a dream. For me personally I will go with the custom.

I would suspect that both the custom and the production bows shoot better than I can shoot them though!

In general a person can really make the arguement for or against either bow. Heck, there are guys with selfbows shooting off their hand that can outshoot most people. Those bows don't even have the performance qualities of the production bow.

To each his own, it always comes down to personal preference. I mean ... seriously.....think about it...why would you shoot a longbow, if you can shoot the FAR superior recurves out there?  :saywhat:      :saywhat:

-Charlie

QuoteOriginally posted by buckeye_hunter:
I mean ... seriously.....think about it...why would you shoot a longbow, if you can shoot the FAR superior recurves out there?   :saywhat:        :saywhat:  

-Charlie

Trolling in an already troll-heavy thread... lol - I knew there was a good reason I liked you.

  :biglaugh:

I see this way. Just like anything else out in the world most of the time you are paying for the name.
We all know that Bear, Hill, Pearson are all Great Production bows. Some are up in to the $1,000 + range. Now go back 20+ years or so and they where half the price they are now. Why is that?

Well, those production bows are selling the name Bear, Hill and Pearson, plus paying all the employees that work for them.

Now thats not saying custom bows don't have to deal with all that. Look at Palmer bows. Mikes bows are made by Mike and coast $1,000+ Here you're paying for the name and the workmanship. I have shot a Palmer bow and I think it's a great bow, but I don't have the money for it. Would I get a palmer bow? Yes, if I had the money and I can say that about any other bowyers as well.

This all comes down to what You want. Just like some like the feel of a nice recurved bow over a Long bow and vice a versa. There is other bows I would like to get and will when I get the money. I even talked to Mike AKA Wingnut about a custom bow that can be really called a custom. The reason why is the color of woods I want in it and what I want written on it. Does that make that bow better then any other? Yes, & No. But the only person/persons that can truly answer that question will be the ones that shoot it and compeer it to another bow from another bowyer.

This all comes down to what you want and what you need from the bow. Like others have said, custom bows come in their draw length/weight not like the production bows come in what they make them in.

QuoteOriginally posted by raideranch:
Why spend $1000+ on a custom bow when you can buy a Bear or Martin that performs just as well for half the price?  Most production bows also look great and last for decades. What do you think?

I think your original premise is flawed.

This thread is like comparing a Chevy Corvair to a Porsche. Both weigh about the same . have about the same space,. Both will get you where you want to go. Both get great gas mileage. There is way too much difference though to compare the two. I absolutely guarantee you that if you pick up a 1500. Habu and a Bear Grizzly , both good bows , you \\\\\\\\\\ You would immediately detect tons of differenc in fit and finish. They would draw and shoot completely different.

Now if those two bows were both a Christmas present I'm sure that most of you guys that posted would pick the Grizzly , Just because the Habu is too nice.    Nottttttttttttt. To say differently could be construed to be disengenuous.

this thread is like comparing hamburger to a juicy tenderloin. Seriously. they both are meat. They both taste great. In fact they both came from a steer and maybe even the same steer. Cook the burger for everyone , well done and the tenderloin to your own taste. given the choice Most of you would take the 14 oz tenderloin over the 8 oz hamburger. I say most because I'm sure that there are partisans that would say we would take the hamburger (production bow) no matter what.

In fact what is going on here is a type of envy. Why not just be happy with what we have instead of putting down what someone else wants.

I build and sell very expensive custom bows. If the bowyers on here want to build a great bow for 500. thats fine with me. I put that much in materials in some of the bows I build. that said I don't put down custom bowyers that build bows for a lot less. That is their priority. If they would rather build three 500. bows instead of one 1500. bow thats great.
I like doing what I do. When I do this and its not an art form then I would not be doing it anymore. Bowbuilding is not my job , its something I do that is extremely important and good enough does not enter into that equasion.

Fortunately I have been around long enough to know the answer to this question--keep arguing til you figure it out.

I own both and production bows do not compare with custom bows , custom bows have the wood you like the fit and finish and the smooth shooting I own 3 Jack Kemph bows ,if you were to shoot one of his bows you would know there is no question which are better < there are many bowyers that will give you so much more than production bows ever could ,, thats the reason there are so many fine bowyers out here they put there years of experence in every bow they make and stand behind them

I like mine, you like yours, what's the disagreement again?

I thought it was too cold for fishing, especially trolling!

One thing a person could do that thinks custom bows cost too much is build one.

One thing a person could do that thinks custom bows cost too much is build one.

Now THAT is a good answer!!!

Like when someone asks a mechanic why it cost so much to change an engine.... Go ahead and change your own @%^$ engine and give me a call back to apologize.

Sixby said it all, perfectly!!

Having built several bows my self and knowing the hours it took me to build a bow that ends up 1/3 as nice as a custom bow...its a wonder these guys stay in business.

Assuming 10 - 15 hours of labor to build a custom bow (in my case it took me about 20 hours on average) and the cost of wood/fiberglass...lets assume $150 in materials (proably on the low end given the costs of highend materials these days), and ignoring the cost of equipment and its maintenance (replainc blades, belts, etc)...they way i see it these guys are getting paid less than $57/hour.

Cost per hour = $1000 (Cost of bow) - 150 (cost of materials) = $850/15 (hours to build a bow) = $56.67!!!

Now lets put that into context...lawyers bill anywhere from $150 - $1,000/hour...and they sure don't give you a beautiful bow at the end of their 8 hour day...for roughly the same cost!

So where am i going with this....Support your Bowyers!!!

Check out the "Acadian Bow Build-along" thread on the PowWow to get an idea of the time and effort that go into a custom bow.

Michael

Make the 57 closer to 20 and you got it right. Funny that even the bowyers do not count the cost of wood buying trips, glue, sandpaper, and all the bandsaw blades ect. I have actually taken to time to figure all these things out. Oh and actual time on one of my bows is 30 plus hours. A hand applied epoxy , hand rubbed oil finish takes a week. Hours of sanding and resanding. Of course I could just spray it three times. I do have all the equipment.

final analysis. I build bows simply because I love doing it. Thats the truth. I would imagine a lot of bowyers do the same thing. I do know one thing. It saddens me that other pro bowyers will jump in to the dogfight. I would not have even posted except for that.

Quotethis thread is like comparing hamburger to a juicy tenderloin.  

Maybe sometimes, not always though.  The "cook" can make as much or more difference than the meat.

Take venison.  Someone who knows how to butcher and prepare it can make hindquarter taste as good and be as tender as backstrap.  Someone who doesn't know what they are doing might cook a backstrap or inner loin that isn't fit to eat.  

On that same note, a good bowyer can take average materials and make an excellent shooter.  If you don't know what you are doing, it doesn't matter how good the materials are, you still won't have a good bow when you are done.

Same thing with time building a bow.  Sure, you can invest mega-hours with ingraving, inlays, a hand-rubbed finish, etc.--those won't affect the shooting, but that kind of stuff does have to be payed for, and the customer should know that up front.  

However, just like with the cooking, if the bowyer knows his stuff and has the proper equipment, he can turn out quality bows much, much faster than a novice or a hobby bowyer.  Does that justify the slower guy charging more for the same bow, just because it took him 3-5 times as long to build it?

I don't have a problem with someone selling a bow for as much as they can get for it, but some of the excuses for the prices leave me scratching my head.  

Lot of suppositions in your [post LBR. You are making assumptions that because it takes more time to build the bow that the bowyer does not have the quialification of the one building the cheaper bow. In some cases that may be true but it also is a broad brush. The same bowyer that can build a great bow out of cheaper materials can also build a great bow out of the best of materials.
When you have a bowyer that builds a bow that his customers say outshoots everything they own and has super high quality in fit and finish and the customer is ecstatically happy then you have what I am talking about. That bowyer should get what his efforts are worth. No bowyer is forcing another person to buy a bow from them .

I just put it this way. If you want one of my bows then you will pay me to build it or win it in an auction. My prices are justified

Like I said I'm not running down the guys building the bows for 300. or 500. This thread is running down the custom bowyers charging what they deem their craft and bow to be worth. That is why I answered it. That is not an excuse .

If you ask any one of my customers if my bows are worth the prices most will tell you they have bought several of them. All will tell you that they are worth the price. Does it matter then  what the people that will never buy one of them anyway think of the price. If they ever shot the bow they might change their minds. Thats my perspective. No excuse intended or given or needed   God Bless and have a Merry Christmas, Steve

It's really not "only" about the time and materials involved.  I'm not a bowyer, but am a small business owner. Many custom bowyers have to charge what they do to make a living.  Keep in mind, Income taxes and Insurance(health, property, liabilty, etc.) that are involved in setting prices when operating a business.

QuoteLot of suppositions in your [post LBR. You are making assumptions that because it takes more time to build the bow that the bowyer does not have the quialification of the one building the cheaper bow.  

Just to clarify, that's not at all what I said or what I meant.  I meant just what I said.  For instance:

"Does that justify the slower guy charging more  for the same bow ,..."

"Sure, you can invest mega-hours with ingraving, inlays, a hand-rubbed finish, etc.--those won't affect the shooting, but that kind of stuff does have to be payed for,..."

"I don't have a problem with someone selling a bow for as much as they can get for it,..."

FWIW, I'm a small business owner, I know several bowyers on a first-name basis, I deal with one on a regular basis, and I've shot some of the finest bows on this earth--in my opinion at least.  That's all it is--my opinion--but it is an informed opinion.

Chad

A true custom bow can be an awesome weapon but I have to ask, how many times does the average trad bowhunter, especially the new ones, pick up a brochure or go on a web site and order from the pictures and description without ever stepping into the bowyers shop. What do they get?? Sometimes a great bow that works for them. But how many times do they say,  "wow...this looks fantastic"  only to have it end up in the classifieds 4 months later.  

Come on guys, how many times do you go to the bowyers shop and pick out the woods, discuss your shooting style, hunting style, draw length, tapers, tiller, GRIP, etc. and really see the bow come to life in person. Some do, and yes, they're getting a "custom" bow. But NOT MANY.

You have a better chance going to a trad shoot and picking up a bow, shooting it, and saying "yeah, this is the one", and buying that bow. Is it really then a "custom."??? Dare yet to say "I want one just like it with only with %$#@ veneers and 3 pounds heavier" only to have it show up and the grip is just not quite the same...but it looks great!!!

I am in NO WAY knocking "custom" bows or small time bowyers. Most are outstanding people and help to keep our passion heated up looking for the latest and greatest. Hell, It's just plain fun and I enjoy it. I just have to wonder that If they are so much better and truely custom then why do so many of us buy so many??? YES, I am putting myself in that category, at least I was.

Now I buy mostly older Howatt bows and find with a high strength string they shoot with just about anything out there. I modify them and refinish as I see fit...custom now for me. Or just enjoy a well preserved one that needs no refinishing at all. Most of those old bows were extremely well made and still servicable.

I would agree that the majority of new "production bows" do leave a lot to be desired as far as fit and finish. The older ones had it all over them in that regard.

Just had to vent a little.   :D

You make a good point--get right down to it, I don't know of anyone who offers a "true" custom, and few could afford one if it was offered.

My favorite (custom?) bowyer calls his bows "production bows with options".  He says that for a bow to be truly custom, it would have to be designed from the ground up for a specific archer--forms and all.  If anyone does that, I don't know about it.

Chad

I have always owned production bows. Most Bears from the 60's and 70's. Love them. With that said, I am looking REAL forward to my Norm Johnson Snakebit I ordered in July. REAL forward.

If you did not go to Bowyers shop and pick out woods ,, Discuss your shooting style Draw length.tiller and have the grip fit to your hand ,, you are not getting a true custom Bow. a good Bowyer will let you shoot your new bow before finishing and tweek the grip to suite you.(some people send a grip to copy) LBR is also correct in that you still have to pick a model of bow your bowyer has as good forms take time to build and perfect.never heard of a Bowyer make a form for only 1 bow  (production bows with options) sounds right on the mark  :thumbsup:    :archer:

get what ya pay for...thats it thats all.

I was just thinking, is it any different really than guns?  You can have a custom rifle built on say a Mauser action or maybe a Hart action or a Remington 700 action.  You can choose a barrel from a certain maker and if you have the time and money you could have the barrel made to order with a certain contour, a specific headspace and chambered in a custom wildcat cartridge.  You could have the stock made to your specs from a piece of wood you picked out and you could have it carved, inletted and checkered by the person or people of your choice.  You could then have the metal engraved by a custom engraver too.  But the question at the end of the day would be, does it shoot any better than an out of the box rifle?  Are you striving for performance or looks?  The next question would be can you hold and aim as well as the gun can shoot?  Is there a relevant difference between a custom gun that shoots a .5" group and one that shoots a 1.0" group?  Are you willing to pay extra for "pretty"?

I've seen many custom rifles that don't get much better than 1" groups at 100 yards from a benchrest and I've seen production rifles that will shoot under an inch all day long.

Are bows any different?  Well one difference is that you can't shoot a bow off the bench to compare accuracy from one to another.  Closest thing would be a shooting machine of some kind.  But I guess the real difference would be more of a feeling with bows.  Guns just kick and go bang from a static position.  Bows are dynamic and get pulled and released.  It's a subjective thing.  One bow will feel smoother than another on the draw.  Another will feel less shock on release than the next one.  Some will feel lighter than the marked weight and some will feel far heavier.  Some will make you shake your hand and put it down, some will make you smile and reach for another arrow.  Is it worth paying for the smile you feel when you shoot a really good bow?

The original question though was "Why spend $1000+ on a custom bow when you can buy a Bear or Martin that performs just as well for half the price? Most production bows also look great and last for decades. What do you think? "

The primary reason for most people would likely be "because I can".  Personally, I can't spend that kind of money but if I could I might.

Like guns, the difference between production and custom is real but subjective in an aesthetic way based on personal likes and dislikes but the difference in performance is not always a huge factor.  Also, mI've seen many many times where people, especially those new to the sport, rave about how great bow "X" is.  It might be a Samik, a Martin X100 or a Bear Montana or some other entry level bow that other people who have been around the sport longer and who have shot more types and brands of bows used to own but have moved on to a different bow because they have found them to be far better for various reasons.  Is it offensive for the guy with a "cheap" bow to hear that his bow isn't as nice a shooting bow as some other guys bow?  Certainly!  Is it incorrect?  Maybe not.  My first trad bow as an adult was a "custom" longbow that actually was too short and too heavy for my long draw.  It thumped a good bit when shot too.  I thought it was the greatest thing I'd ever shot and loved it.  I'd have told anyone who asked that it was a great bow and they should buy one themselves.  Shooting a trad bow will do that to you.  It's just so FUN!  I didn't realize that it stacked or thumped more than most bows do.  Heck, I even named it Thumper!  I thought ALL bows wold feel that way when shot.  Eventually I shot other bows and found many that were far more user friendly, smoother to draw and softer in the hand to shoot.  Those "subjective" differences turned out to be pretty real.... That first bow still holds an honored place in my bow rack because it is the bow that got me started back into trad archery as an adult but I almost never shoot it any more.  And notice too that that bow WAS a custom bow.  The whole question shouldn't be so much is custom better than production so much as simply, are some bows better than others?

So, I guess I'd like to ask most of those who swear up and down that there is no difference between production bows and custom bows, "Have you really tried enough different bows to make that statement honestly?"  I expect some of you have but I also expect many have not.

As I was once told by Kieth Bain at the Texas State Longbow shoot, it's not the bow, it's the monkey behind it that makes the difference.

I have read several good reasons, either way, on whether a custom bow is better than a production bow, or not.  I own 3 custom longbows and two production recurves.  All were bought used.  I like all of them.

How do they shoot?  As far as I know they shoot fine.  As for me, not as good.  I have little doubt that all these bows would shoot consistently well out of a shooting machine.  I am not a shooting machine.

I fly fish and tie flies.  I bought an expensive vise.  Do I tie better flies with it?  No.  But I really like looking at it.  It is a beautiful piece of machine work.  I got it on clearance, otherwise I would not have spent the money.

The same can be said for the several nice fly reels I own.  Do they make me a better fly fisher?  No!  But I love fishing with them.  They are well machined and balanced, are light, and are very useful when fighting a large trout or salmon.

Why do I spend the extra money?  Who cares.  I pay my bills and taxes and am saving for retirement.  I don't have cable television, I do not go out to eat a lot becuase I would rather have nicer gear.  As has been said, it is a choice.  You can't take the bow with you when you die, but you can't take the money with you either.

Do the custom bows shoot better?  I don't care if they do or they don't.  They are, in my eyes, works of art.  I enjoy holding them and shooting them as much as I enjoy looking at a terrific piece of art.  I shoot and ultimately hunt because I want to.  I own custom and mass production bows because I want to.

There is an old saying, beware the man that owns only one gun; he probably knows how to use it.  I would be better served to own only one bow.  But there are so many good bows on the market that I refuse to limit myself to one bow.

What is important to me is that you learn to shoot the bow(s) you have very well, especially if you hunt.  We have a responsibility to make quick, humane kills out of respect for our game.

I will never ridicule a person for their choice in equipment or in the amount of money they choose to spend.  That is their choice. If someone wants to question how I spend my money, I don't care.  I will spend it as I see fit.

Crap....because I didn't drive from Ohio to Oregon, now I find out my Blacktail isn't custom.

Daggonitt....why don't you guys TELL me this stuff???!!!

IMO, LBR is right regarding what a true custom bow is. Unless it is fitted to the archers hands, measurements, it is NOT a true custom bow.

I look at it this way ; you can buy a Cadillac or a Lexus. Both are good cars and you can get them loaded with options. Does that make them a custom car? No, it makes them a model with many options. Just picking the woods and draw weight hardly makes it "custom"

Small bowyers , have to make enough profit on each bow to make it worth their while. They work hand and deserve money for the effort they put in.
Larger production outfits can take advantage of mass purchasing power, computerized cutting jigs, etc. but may also have to spend more money on advertising and marketing. These marketing costs can be significant and must be passed on to the consumer.

High cost doesn't mean the best product nor does a less expensive bow mean less performance.

I think it would be very interesting to have a bunch of archers shootssome bows (while blindfolded) and get their opinions on "smoothness", handshock, etc. I think it could be very entertaining.

Bottom line is that there are tons of good bows out there, big "pruduction" outfits, small individual bowyers and smaller production outfits and likely very very few true custom bowyers.

shoot what you shoot best and don't worry about the pedigree

:bigsmyl:  Finally, Three great posts and I agree with them all. Especially laughing at the none custom Blacktail. Norm would love that one. Since when does a bow have to be one of a kind (literally) and burn the forms after it is made for it to be a custom?

Are all custom rifles built on Remington actions, or Mauser actions non custom now because they have a manufactured action? does the bowyer now have to make his own glass instead of using Gordon's glass? This is not even rational thought.   :help:  

I will agree that a true custom will be a one of a kind, non cookie cutter bow that is built especially for one individual. There are bowyers that do that. At least one I know of. I can't vouch for the rest of them but Ric Anderson built a bow for me that was built for my specific draw, weight , hand , grip style and tiller. It came just like I envisioned it. Except nicer.  :clapper:   I do the same for my customers and I believe that there must be other bowyers that build true custom , one of a kind, non cookie cutter bows.

After 30 years of shooting trad bows, I can say I've never owned a custom bow. Production bows do just fine for me. Like some here, I can't see past the price. Their beautiful works of art and no doubt shoot somewhat better than a factory bow, but to me it's like comparing my F250 to a Mustang. The Mustang is faster and prettier, but I ain't going to drive it through the woods. Scratching the finish on a 300.00 bow hurts a lot less than a scratch on a 1,200.00 bow.

Here's a good reason to buy custom.  I spent months researching before I chose between a recurve and a longbow after deciding to switch back to trad.  After all that research. I knew I wanted a break down model longbow.  I also knew that I needed at least a 66 inch longbow and preferably a 68 inch bow to completely avoid finger pinch.  

I called almost every custom shop I could find on the web and started with one question.  What length longbow should I shoot to avoid finger  pinch and stacking. I got a constant run of 68 inch answers from the bowyers.  I called several factory reps and archery shops and heard a constant 62 to 64 inch anser.  Why, that was the longest bows they made.  Their goal was to sell me a product, not fit me with what would meet my needs.

I found a local bowyer and asked him the question.  His first question was how tall are you?  6'4" tall.  Next question, do you have really long or regular arms?  Proportionate, not overly long.  His answer 68" bow is your perfect bow length. He said, I can make you a 66" that will not stack and have very mild finger pinch, or a 68 that will fit you perfectly.  After several phone calls and a shop visit, I ordered my bow and waited on pins and needles for 8 months.

I love the bow, and it meets all my wants and needs. It is gorgeous and I got the woods I wanted.  Guess what, I have another on order and a third one in the planning right now.   Exact same draw weights and bow length.

Top notch customer service, gorgeous woods, getting exactly what I want and need from my bow.  Getting to spend time chatting with a world class bowyer, PRICELESS.

I paid $875 and think he only charged me half of what he should have.

Custom is totally worth the money to me.  That is the real answer.  Not for you, just for me.  We all have to decide this one for ourselves.

Hmmmmmm well the Oplympics are won with "productions" bows.  You can buy production limbs for up to $700 plus shipping. you can buy a Fiberbow riser for $900. As a matter of fact a moderate priced FITA rig will be in the order of $3K of course that includes the arrows.  I would guess the most Olympics bows actually in the Olympics would be close to $5K in the bow and stuff to go one it.  

Lucky ya guys are trad bowhunters.  ya can not even get a set of good target arrows for the price ya pay for a average production hunting bow.  

IBO RU class Triple Crown was won with a production bow.  The rest of the trad classes were not.

rusty

I like things that are made by hand...whether it's a handmade knife, or bow or whatever...I might be odd but I have a hard time fallin in love with mass produced stuff...for me there is something magic in something hand made...I like knowing someone put some of their heart and soul and pride into making an item...call it mojo , magic or whatever ; it's what makes TRAD archery different...thank God there are still bowyers,and knife makers,and leather smiths,and true craftsmen out there...Doug

The word "custom" clouds the issue, I reckon.

Actually, it shouldn't even be an issue.

Bows come from bowyers, who work with varying shop sizes, varying numbers of colleagues / employees, varying tools and processes, and giving varying options.

It's wonderful to have such a broad range of choices.

What I am seeing here is two mind sets. Neither wrong so why attack the other? Onemindset sees a bow simply as a tool to use. Another sees it as a part of themselves and the mystique of archery.
I responded because I was observing a pack mentality by one of the factions  demonizing the other. Instead we all are part of a wonderful bunch of people that love doing the same things and really appreciate what God has given us. Merry Christmas everyone.

Guess I will clarify again on what I posted, about a "true custom".

 

QuoteMy favorite (custom?) bowyer calls his bows "production bows with options". He says that for a bow to be truly custom, it would have to be designed from the ground up for a specific archer--forms and all. If anyone does that, I don't know about it.

That wasn't my definition, it was the definition of a bowyer who has been building (custom?) bows for well over 20 years and has made over 12,000 bows (by hand).  He offers bow length, draw length, grip, tiller, wood, glass, etc. etc. etc. options.  I call them "custom" myself, but I understand and agree with his definition of "custom", if you want to get right down to it.  I've never heard of any bowyer building a bow to meet his definition of a "true custom" bow for the public.  If there are any, I'd like to know about them.

After some thought, it would seem to me that self made bows are as close to "true custom" as you'll get.

Not that it matters--I made myself a bow (with a lot of adult supervision), and I still prefer a bow that was made for me by someone else.

Chad

I respectfully disagree with your bowyer. Grin. Merry Christmas

1.My Martin X200 broke after 8 month of shooting.
I wrote 4 e-mails to Martin Archery, but never received an answer.
2.The performance of my 1000$ custom bows is better in every way(speed, smoothness, handshock).

Custom means your getting a bow built to your specifications, wood choices, grip, weight etc...Some custom bowyers offer basic bows, with basic woods at fair prices. Exotic woods will cost you more.

Production bows are just that. Doesn't mean they shoot bad or look terrible, you just have to be happy with the standard woods offered. I have been noticing however that some of these "production" bows are getting quite expensive. So...if I'm looking to drop $900 for a Bear T/D, I really would opt for a bow built to my specs for either the same price or even a few dollars cheaper.

Love my Pronghorn...PR

All things being equal, You get what you pay for

If you have the money and will to spend it on something that will be made just for you, then why not?

You have the right to spend your hard-earned money on whatever you want BUT.  You could cut a decent branch of the tree in your backyard, string it, and everything else being equal (draw length, draw weight, arrow weight, etc...) your stick bow will shoot within about 15 fps of the fastest and most efficient custom recurves made.  As long as you do your part your stick bow is going to fling the arrows the same way every time.  It just depends on what you're looking for, a deadly weapon for hunting or an expensive beautiful piece of art that you're hesitant to hunt with.

WOW ! 15 fps, what kinda trees you got growin in your backyard? Carbon? just had to ask!

My trees are mostly carbon and so are yours!

Imho I feel spending a grand on a bow is like getting married to an ugly girl and spending money to get plastic surgery to make her look good.If it great girl(the bow shoots great) then why spend money on appearance.I found things that cost more to buy also cost more to fix and don't last as long.Sneakers for instance Air Jordens $150.00 Converse $50.00 the airs last a kid 2mo. the cons. a year.

No one set's out to marry an ugly girl though?

and $5000 will fix her right up.

Gotta say my custom bow spends a lot of time off the rack and out doing what it was made to do. Cost me plenty and spent the last two days busting brush and chasing elk all over Washington States foothills in some nasty brush with her.  I am not afraid to nick and dent her in pursuit of animals.  

Just like a fine wine, or a good woman.  Age just make a bow better. A nick or two here or there shows the bow is being used for what she was made for.

Gotta say my custom bow spends a lot of time off the rack and out doing what it was made to do. Cost me plenty and spent the last two days busting brush and chasing elk all over Washington States foothills in some nasty brush with her.  I am not afraid to nick and dent her in pursuit of animals.  

Just like a fine wine, or a good woman.  Age just make a bow better. A nick or two here or there shows the bow is being used for what she was made for.

WOW, I have two Robertsons and just sold a Silvertip, what am I shooting, a Samick Red Stag recurve. A expensive gun, bow , golf clubs, doesn't make the person behind the tools any better unless he practices daily and puts forth a effort to get better.

QuoteOriginally posted by Bowkill7:
You have the right to spend your hard-earned money on whatever you want BUT.  You could cut a decent branch of the tree in your backyard, string it, and everything else being equal (draw length, draw weight, arrow weight, etc...) your stick bow will shoot within about 15 fps of the fastest and most efficient custom recurves made.  As long as you do your part your stick bow is going to fling the arrows the same way every time.  It just depends on what you're looking for, a deadly weapon for hunting or an expensive beautiful piece of art that you're hesitant to hunt with.

Must say I disagree. If you watch alot of archery videos on YouTube, you may know Trophybow1. He shoots a few different bows, including a 105# Kassai Bear horsebow. His other bow, a 66#@28" R/D longbow, outshoots it by a few feet per second. Not sure whether this is due to the Kassai being bad, or the longbow being great, but you get the point... in the end, proper craftsmanship will show its true value.

TheFatboy

Shoot a stick bow and your best recurve through a chrono with equal grains of arrow weight per pound of draw weight and compare the two.

I don't have a stick bow equal to my longbow in poundage. I would gladly do it if I had.

So after seven pages,and reading every comment on this topic up to my post,I think we can deduce two things from this thread-

1-We all love bows
2-Nobody is budging from their position

  :smileystooges:

Damn sraight  :goldtooth:

Everything being equal, the bow doesn't make the bowhunter a better hunter, only refining your hunting skills makes you a better hunter.

I own both production (mainly vintage Kodiaks) and custom bows. It is simple to me. If I can shoot the bow well, I'll keep it. If not, it goes down the road. The customs sure are easy on the eyes tho...

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v75/Rugerfan/IMG_0773-1.jpg)

If I have to explain, you probably won't understand...

JL