Trad Gang

So there has been a little bit of an urban legend going around here in southern ontario.  Word is that cougar sightings are starting to crop up.  people seeing tracks, seeng lions, and the rumor has been that the DNR has rleased these to control the deer pop.  The strangest thing I have heard and I am wondering if ths is possible for those familiar with mountain lions is that people are finding small and part carcasses dragged up in trees. Is this normal behavior?  The area affected by these creatures is in close proximity to my two best properties fo deer.  I have seen no doubt te fewest does and fawns this year of any, harvest rates in the area have been cut almost by 200%?  any thoughts to whether this could be really cougars doing the damage?

I dont have "experience" with mt. lions per sey. but about 10 years ago myself and a couple friends were bowhunting on the ma. vt border. my friend hit a deer and we decided to wait till the am. we found the carcas about 12 ft up in a tree with no enough meat left to make a soup!!  :eek:  

the same exact thing happend 3 weeks later on the same hill. but i wasnt there for that.  :scared:  

there are deff. lions here, even though fish and game wont admit it! i personally know about 20 people that have seen them. i was also told that 6pair were stocked in a nehboring town. i also know of 2 farms near me that have seen a lion with a collar on it!! (who put it on?? ill give ya 1 guess!!!!)  :readit:  
so to answer your question. yes i have personally seen deer dragged into trees. and i doubt its an "urban ledgend". it prob. reallity!

gaff

Well this is the same sort of thing,  talk of released with radio collars.  Yet the MNR (or DNR) acts like the CIA with this information apparently.  Anyone elese that can confirm this?

the whole thing is weird scott. you'll hear the same thing from people all over the counrty where "mt loins dont exist"...
i worked with a guy that swears that he was in a bar one night with a game warden. the GW had a few to many to drink and started gettin loose lips. he said "we stocked them around hear to  keep deer and coyote populations in check! but if you ever tell anyone i said that, i'll call you a liar!!"

oh, well. let me see one.

gaff

My Lions will take carcasses in trees. I have seen it a few times I will see if I can find a picture to post. Most of the time they perfer to cover there kills on the ground.

mountain lions cover their prey on the ground with debris. Leopards take their prey into trees to eat.
Instinctive behavior.
Even here; where lions are having their kills taken over by wolves on a constant basis - they have not taken to hauling deer (or elk for that matter)- into trees.

Don't know about them dragging a carcus up in trees but my understanding is that a grown mtn. lion consumes 1 deer size animal a week so...if that is true then at the end of a year he has taken 52 deer or deer size animals. That is terrible in my opinion.
It's ashame that they don't let bowhunters in to control the population.

I don't know if cougars do it but jaguars and some other African cats do this and lions do go in trees so Why not it will help protect the kill.I do know they also bury the kill.

"mountain lions cover their prey on the ground with debris. Leopards take their prey into trees to eat. Instinctive behavior."

this MAY be true. BUT tell me what animal in MA. or VT does?? and dont say bears, or bobcats, because thats just not the case. i cant think of one. so in my mind, i believe its a mt. lion....  :readit:  

gaff

Mountain lions are not the problem, they never were...Yes, they do exist, but if you're see'in less deer, it ain't the kitties fault. Mountain lions have huge ranges, and even the healthiest cat can do very little to a healthy deer pop. They eat the weak, the sick, and the old, they're easier to catch you know. The problem has never been the cats.
                         -Hillbilly

lets see ! per year kill=52 on the high side
mabey 10 lion in the whole state ! high side
sounds like very small percentage of deer goes to feed the lion ! we would be blessed with a MUCH higher lion population and far fewer deer / just a more natural balance.

Fisher sets maybe???Look for a conibear behind the meat.

In Cali they have been observed dragging deer into trees. Yes, they pound the deer too. No, they don't just eat the weak. A juvinile cat will also kill for "fun" as I have seen the impact of that as well.

What hammers the deer where I live is the coyotes, and when a den is located it isn't uncommon to find many deer skulls, primarily fawns.

Fish and game will deny their existence if it means not having to come up with a management plan - but that last statement is hearsay (I have nothing but respect for F&G.   :D  )

"harvest rates in the area have been cut almost by 200%"

Did you mean 50%?

These critters definitely move into new areas.
I live on Wrangell island in SE Alaska.
About 15 years ago, there were sightings of an unusual animal with a long tail by children in the school playground. Not much more was thought about it until shortly after, when a fellow who lives outside of town came in by boat and put a dead mountain lion on the bar in the saloon.
He was later charged by Alaska Fish & Game with taking an animal out of season, and was convicted because since we don't have mountain lions in Southeast Alaska, we don't have a hunting season for them either. It was found to be full of deer meat.
The lion was confiscated and after the trial it was given to the school. They had it mounted and display it at the school in a glass case as their mascot, and call their ball team the Cougars. Since that time, there has been one other lion caught in a trap, and a few others seen, some with photographs.
But officially, we still don't have mountain lions here.
I have not seen deer in trees, but that might be next.

Liberals in black helios releasing cheetahs are responsible.

Thought I would post this picture here.  There are only supposed to be 100 adult "Florida Panthers" in the state.  We have recently started to see sign where I hunt. One of the other guys captured this photo on a trail cam

(http://i261.photobucket.com/albums/ii45/heilakka/kitty.jpg)

A Mt.lion killed two joggers in one day and attacked another in the same spot in California.They are predators and can be territorial.I read an article about a guy who was stalked by a lion and when it approached him he shot it and stuck a broad head in his head. Then the lion took off.The next year another hunter arrowed a lion in the same area and a broad head was stuck in the skull.you be the judge.

In that pic you can clearly see the deer tracks going up the tree.That explains everything.That dumb cat walked right past it and never looked up.  :knothead:

Our DNR denied the existence of mountain lions in Iowa for a long time in spite of sightings and tracks. Then they spread a rumor that it was a tame cat that had escaped. Now they grudgingly admit there MIGHT be some here.

A friend of mine has trail cam pictures of one on his dead stock pile (hogs). He suspected it was a cougar because the dead pigs kept disappearing, so he set up a trail camera and did get some pictures of the cat helping itself. This is about three miles from where I hunt, but I haven't seen any sign as yet. No deer in trees either lol.

There have been some killed here now, but there is no penalty since they don't exist (officially).

We do have lots of coyotes and lots of deer, so I don't think the 'yotes take many. They do clean up gut piles and road kills pretty well. They might take a fawn now and then, but I have never found any deer bones around dens here. In fact, I've never seen any kind of bones around the dens.  Mostly they eat rodents and carrion as near as I can tell.

Sounds like a "flurry" of B.S. to me. No fish and game authorities have proof of Cougers taking kill of any kind up a tree. Sorry, can't stomach this one! Biff

I certainly think the cats are repopulating areas they previously existed.  As to DNRs stocking them, it makes absolutely no sense.  Most can barely afford to cover the responsibilities they have.  Where would they get the public tax funds to secretly stock wildlife, particularly animals as difficult to see and capture as mountain lions.  Its not like they set up black ops funds from the slush piles of state monies.  

We have lots of sightings here in Maine (my wife included) but the IF&W won't say we have any.  They also say they are released "pets".  Thinking about it I believe they can't afford to admit it.  If they did the cats would have to be listed as endangered species.  That would start a huge financial and political nightmare.  The money spent on studying and counting bald eagles, keeping building away from nest locations etc. was huge.  Plus it would give huge ammunition to the anti's.  Imagine the studies they would require to make sure hunting deer would not harm the growing population of endangered mountain lions.
Be thankful your DNR isn't recognizing them.

Biff, i DONT need fish and game to tell me what i saw!!!!!   :readit:    

gaff

Hot topic here for sure. One to rival polictics and just as deadly to ruin friendships and divide people. What people see in the woods is what they see, and to respect it wither or not we believe them ,is the right thing to do.      I been hammered a few times over seeing one or two here in Iowa. And there has been dead deer in the trees as well around Jefferson county.   One old timer told me than cats can adopt new habits in new habitat. We have plenty of critters here that eat animals left on the ground. So his way of thinking was they adapted to getting them out of reach. His opinion not mine. I'm no expert but i do know they are out there. Wasn't many years ago we started seeing Bobcats and they weren't suppose to be any. Now the state has too many.

Biff have you ever had any fish and game agency admit to anything but the fact that we are always mistaken.If they admit to it they have to do something about it.So they wont ever admit to ****!

I've seen two lions in places they're not supposed to be. One at the top of an embankment near the MS/AL state lines on hwy 78, where I found a road-killed spike buck in the ditch that it had fed on, and another crossed a two-lane in front of my car east of Spartanburg, SC, where I lived at the time. No question whatsoever on the identification of either one. I know the odds of seeing two in such places are astronomical, but it happened!

They follow deer populations. As deer population continue to expand nation-wide, so do the cougar populations.

On the issue of them taking "only" the weak ect.  We have a split season here in AZ.  During the early hunt I came upon a place where a lion had been stashing its kills.  There was quite a range in sizes.  The 2 largest were well over 100" which is huge for the whitetails here.  The smallest was a little forky.  As an aside I don't know if any of you saw it or not but research here in Tucson shows that the coyotes diet is 42% housecat  Not enough domestic deer to keep them fed.

MAP

if you have lions, you should be finding kill sites.

Are you seeing more than usual? If not, I think there's other factors for not seeing as many deer: a larger than normal mast crop, coyotes killing fawns, or development moving them around to new places.

Lots of reasons for not seeing as many deer.

Ray, I am convinced that coyotes, the deep snow the past two winters, an abnormal amount of corn and soybeans (great for antler nutrition but bad for late season survival) also the corn is coming off late and getting plowed under almost as they take it off for seed. Also our F&G getting greedy and supplying endless tags it seems to gun hunters.  These are the primary concerns for deer pops dropping.  I know cougars have huge ranges in normal circumstances but the sightings and sign seems to be really localized to one area specifically where I hunt.  It is one of the only places that really lends itself to cougar survival in my region as far as I can see but again I know little about them.  But the deer  are again really thin in this area which is some of the best habitat and most food especially late season like this. It just makes me wonder.  

I would like to see this for my own eyes so I am going to do some asking around and try and find one of these kill sights for myself. Don't worry I'll take pictures if I find one.

Also to the one chap I did mean down 50%, I was a little boggled but I think you got the drift, I am forever in your debt for pointing that out.

I'm not to far from you frozenfew and have heard the rumors too. Last I heard they (MNR) was saying that the were lions that had escaped captivitiy, BUT I have not been following it that closely...

You're other reasons are right on imo as to why it's been a tough year, 2 hard winters/coyotes/extra tags etc. If there are indeed lions out there, it sure isn't many,  definately not enough to see an inpact on deer.

Are you talking about the wainfleet area? as thats were I thought the mnr comfirmed "scat" of a lion.

After the rifle hunt in Nov has always been hard, where I hunt anyways.  Most crops are off, the orange army has mixed everything up, leaves are down and temps have dropped.  I go from seeing multiple deer per sit to 1-2 week.  Deer head to the thickest cover and last crops standing I think. If like me you don't have permission at a place with both you are S.O.L

Well maybe they are not cougar at all but Sasquatch.  They haven't been seen in the NW since the Green River Killer was arrested, so maybe they are migrating east.  They are known to put kills in trees for sure.

Or maybe not cougar but african leopards.  I've seen the impala in trees there.

Just food for thought.

As for sick lame and lazy.  During the elk rut, cougar kill almost exclusively mature bull elk that are bugling.  I've seen it, heard it and been there just after it happened.
The other story is Disney.

Mike

I have no doubt that there are cougars in a lot of areas where they're not supposed to be.  There's also no doubt that cougars are accomplished tree climbers.  Why would it be difficult to imagine one dragging a carcass up a tree from time to time, especially if there are other predators (coyotes, etc.) in the area that might steal a cached kill?

There are some pigs, bears, cougars, and rattlesnakes here in south central Missouri.  There are also a lot of people who think and say that the Conservation Dept. "stocked" them for various purposes.  If you care to listen, you can hear all kinds of reasons; trades with other states for turkeys, controlling deer populations, giving the black helicopter gunners more practice targets, etc.  I think the excuses go wilder in direct proportion to the number of poaching tickets the particular rumor-monger has...

Here's what I think:  There are a few animals migrating and expanding into ranges they haven't been in previously.  There are also always going to be a few that got "dumped" by exotic wildlife owners who found out that it's a lot of work and money to take proper care of big cat.  I also believe that stories grow in the telling, and stories about wild animals have an extra dose of growth hormone built right in.

Believe what you want to.  That's what I do.    ;)

there was a tv show recently that showed mt lions dragging deer up into trees by the nose.  

Ed

KevGSP,  I am about two hours north of you so its not the same rumor or maybe it is.  Anyways there is a website for the provincial puma foundation and it has stats on how many sightings versus how many are confirmed... so the most is just rumor or at least 99.3 percent by their calculations. I swore I saw one five years ago but it happened so fast it was like a sasquatch sighting..  A freind showed me a track this spring he found turkey hunting and I couldn't be sure but it looked like a big cat track to me. The more I think about it the more I want to go out and find this kitty.  

Wingnut, the north african ontarian leopards are real I swear it!