Trad Gang

Dan Quillian began advocating the use of FF in the late '80's. My Bamboo Longhunter had walnut tip overlays, but that wasn't strong enough. My first FF string (12 strands from Dan) cut through, with properly rounded nocks. I sent it back to Jeffrey, who built the bow to Dan's design, and they repaired the tip and put harder material on it, Not sure what, but the bow has held up fine since.

Dan recommended as low as 8 strands with well-padded loops for people who wanted to get the most out of one of his bows. He would not have recommended that if it was dangerous in any way. He did NOT recommend FF for bows that had poorly rounded tips or overlays that were not designed for it.

QuoteOriginally posted by razorback:
What exactly makes a bow ff/D97 etc, friendly. I have a Bear Grizzly 58" 55# and have no idea if it will handle more than the B55 string I have on it now. i am planning on making a new string for it soon and don't want to mess it up with the wrong material.

tony that bow is not ff ready[i used to own it]

QuoteOriginally posted by 12ringman:
I won't use anything under 16 strands in any material. I hate to see that for just a extra few fps.

I have to agree about the few extra FPS part. I'm primarily a bowhunter. I want my equipment in the overkill department as far as durability, and that includes my bowstrings. That being said, I don't think I ever failed to kill an animal because my bowstring had 12 strands of Dyna97 instead of only 6 or 8.   ;)

There is a lot of false info on this thread.  The problem with the failure is that the loops weren't padded.  If it had padded loops the failure wouldn't have happened.  The failure was not from fastflight material but an improperly made bowstring and overlays with the wrong grain orientation.  Btw 8 strands of d-97 is the equivelent in breaking strength to over 17strands of B-50.  My point is that the thin string did not cause the failure nor did the fastflight material.  Fact is that basically any bow that can handle b-50 can handle a properly made low strand count fastflight with padded loops.

"I won't use anything under 16 strands in any material. I hate to see that for just a extra few fps. "   Those "few extra fps" is the equivalent of about 10# of draw weight.  The thin string is also quieter with less handshock and less total vibration. Also 16stramds of d-97 is the equivelent of over 34strands of B-50! Don't you consider 34strands of B-50 overkill? Imo a high strand count on fastflight is a waste of material and bow energy.  The other thing is that the string didn't fail the bow did.  People should not be afraid of low strand count padded fastflight strings.  They are every bit as safe a B-50.

QuoteOriginally posted by Jesse Peltan:
There is a lot of false info on this thread.  The problem with the failure is that the loops weren't padded.  If it had padded loops the failure wouldn't have happened.  The failure was not from fastflight material but an improperly made bowstring and overlays with the wrong grain orientation.  Btw 8 strands of d-97 is the equivelent in breaking strength to over 17strands of B-50.  My point is that the thin string did not cause the failure nor did the fastflight material.  Fact is that basically any bow that can handle b-50 can handle a properly made low strand count fastflight with padded loops.

"I won't use anything under 16 strands in any material. I hate to see that for just a extra few fps. "   Those "few extra fps" is the equivalent of about 10# of draw weight.  The thin string is also quieter with less handshock and less total vibration. Also 16stramds of d-97 is the equivelent of over 34strands of B-50! Don't you consider 34strands of B-50 overkill? Imo a high strand count on fastflight is a waste of material and bow energy.  The other thing is that the string didn't fail the bow did.  People should not be afraid of low strand count padded fastflight strings.  They are every bit as safe a B-50.

Jesse,
You may want to check out the 10# of draw for a modern bow would equate to nearly 30 fps if there was only a gain of 3 fps per # of draw weight. You won't gain as much as you think. I am all about performance but the crap I hunt in especially around the sand plum thickets and Honey Locust trees I would just rather have the "overkill" than the extra fps. I shoot 16 strands of TS1+ on my PMAX,PSAX and Griffin's and gained only a average of 7 fps over the Dynaflite 97. I just cant justify a cutting or nicking a thin string and having my investment broken because I wanted more speed and performance. You guys shoot those thin strings, but pad those loops and ends or the same could happen to your bow.

Per pound of draw weight you gain 1-2fps not 3 so for 10# that would be around 15fps which is a normal gain going to thin fastflight from thick b-50. Also the fastflight materials are harder to cut than b-50 but that might be a moot point when you have 200-300# of tension and a razor sharp broadhead. Also if you have say a 9 strand D-97 and you cut 3 strands its still good up to a 60# bow. I always carry a backup string or 2 in case I cut one. If I cut a string I won't shoot it. It's not worth the risk no matter how many strands you had in the first place.

QuoteOriginally posted by Jesse Peltan:
Per pound of draw weight you gain 1-2fps not 3 so for 10# that would be around 15fps which is a normal gain going to thin fastflight from thick b-50.  

That performance gain has a lot more to do with B50 versus FF than it does sixteen strands of FF versus eight.

QuoteOriginally posted by Jason R. Wesbrock:
 

QuoteOriginally posted by Jesse Peltan:
Per pound of draw weight you gain 1-2fps not 3 so for 10# that would be around 15fps which is a normal gain going to thin fastflight from thick b-50.  

That performance gain has a lot more to do with B50 versus FF than it does sixteen strands of FF versus eight. [/b]

Exactly, I was not comparing B-50. I do feel it has it's place but it can't even compete with the other more modern materials. I was using 3 fps as an extreme gain and that would be the case between the B-50 and FF,TS1.etc.

Seems like this not a p-ing match has turned into one.      

If I nick a string, I'm going to replace it, no matter how many strands it had to start with because I can't be sure just how many strands were compromised. If it is a Flemish string and all the strands were from one bundle, would that cause the loop to open? I don't know, nor do I want to find out.

I could give a rat's behind about added performance. Thinner strings are quieter, reduce hand shock, and I can build two 8 strand strings for just slightly more than the cost of one 16 (still have to serve both). D97 is pricey, so if I can use half and still have a safe, quiet string, I don't see any reason not to.

Padding the loops is (should be anyway) a no-brainer. Obviously, whoever built the string in the picture missed that little point.

I think Shrew bows come with either a 6 or 8 strand strings. A Shrew is quite an investment. If skinny strings were so weak that one needs to be concerned about them breaking and ruining a bow, I find it hard to believe Shrews would be so equipped. I've only had one string break on me, and that was a 14 strand B50 on a 45# 1968 Bear Grizzly. There was no damage to the bow. The string broke under the serving at the nock set. Otherwise, if a string gets to looking frazzled, gets nicked, or seems to be stretched to the limit, I just build a new one.

If you prefer a heavier string, I have no problem with that. If I choose to use thinner strings and/or recommend them to others, it's just my opinion based on personal observation. As they say, your mileage may vary.

30,

do you have problems with d97 creeping a ton?  If not I'm curious about your building.  I'm tinkering with them and so far the first one stretched like no tomorrow.  I didnt prestretch before trying it out, but it did seem to stretch a ton initially more so then my typical 15 stranders.  I build my own....just curious.

Dan,

Are you talking about twisted or continuous loop strings?

I made a six strand twisted d97 string and it creeped like crazy. I tried 8 strands and it was better, but still creepy. Then I went with an 8 strand continuous loop string and have had no problems with that. D97 has lots of wax on it, which may explain some of the creep. I pad and taper the loops and also pad the serving area. I've been using the 8 strand string on my 46# Kanati for 4-5 months now. I had to add a few twists during the hot weather, but since then, it has stayed put. I mostly make CL strings now because my hands don't cramp up like they do when I make twisted strings, but I also think they creep less.

so far, i don't see anyone on this thread pushing that their opinions are best or even the only way to go.  that would be silly.  there is no right or wrong about using thin or fat strings.  do what you want.  rationalize how ever you like that your way works best for .... you.

Can anyone tell about TS Plus. Never used the modern stuff but I recently got a Bear Montana & it uses the modern type string. Very impressed with the string.

Ok just did some testing with a 9str, 12str and a 18str TS-1+ string. These are just human numbers, no shooting machine. The differance between 9 str and the 18 str was on avg. 2FPS. but the real big differance was the bow got quiter. Ever since the first post on skinny strings, I have made endlees and flemish strings of D97 and TS-1+ of different strand counts (6str-18str). In most cases the biggest gain was only 1-3fps. The sound was the real winner, as the string count went down, so did the sound. I have found for ME 9 strands of D97 and 12 strands of TS-1+ give me the best all around performance(they come out about the same dia.). Both materials work great,  I like others have been making strings 20+ years. All shooting was done in a small indoor  room....

I also noticed the reduction in vibration and noise immediatly which imho warrents some more tinkering on my part.

I am a flemish twist guy.  Never made an endless loop in my life.   I tried an 8 strand on a 60 pounder.  Gonna try a 10.  I really dont care about the speed, the bow is plenty fast enough.  The noise is definatly worthy.

I also wonder if a lighter string isnt a more forgiving string.  Meaning less mass on side to side motion, allowing your arrow to recover quicker?!?!  I havent shot hardly at all with them to confirm it but in theory it makes sense.  Either way the lack of noise is worth it.

I'm with you Dan, The sound thing to ME is the biggest gain.

QuoteOriginally posted by DesertDude:
I'm with you Dan, The sound thing to ME is the biggest gain.

:thumbsup:  

Me too!

so....what is the trick to building an 8 strand d97 that doesnt stretch like the dickens.  

I'm going to tinker some more today with them.   I dont mind tearing one apart and rebulding it...at the price of the material (and shipping ot alaska), that's not a big deal.  But the stretching part is.   I've heard it, and kind of seen it now.   I was thinking if it did stretch a ton, I could jig it up and stretch the snot out of it...rip it apart and rebuild it, and stretch it again?

I posted the pic and wrote what I wrote with the whole idea in mind to enlighten those that wonder if their bow could handle thin unpadded, low stretch strings.  Hopefully those with older bows would not try pushing the limits and split their tips, not so those that have been making strings for the last several decades could get into piss fest over it.

It was meant to be a helpful tip from a guy who has used 4 gallons (over 60 lbs) of epoxy over the last 10 months.

mike, your topic post is a good one for all to heed.  it's never a bad thing to remind us all the dangers of mismatching string fibers and bows.  

once again i'll type - i see no pi$$ing contest going on with this thread, just expressions of opinions.  if this or any thread created a problem, then a mod or admin would shut it down more sooner than later.  

what each of us ascribe to when it comes to bowstrings is just fine for each of us, individually.  freedom of expression is a good thing.

dan, as i said to you before, i have no problem with skinny dyneema (df'97 or d'02) ENDLESS strings having excessive stretch or creep - i can't say anything about TWISTED skinny strings.  in fact, my 8 strand skinny endless hmpe strings stretch/creep almost nil.

Rob,

I know I know...I need to try an endless loop...but I'd prefer to stick to flemish if possible.   Now stop taunting me with hemp strings  ;)

for flemish skinny strings, it has to be superior build technique and proper padding that'll keep 'em from too much stretch/creep.

We have been using skinny strings for about 8 months and experienced the same results as Desert Dude and others. Small increase in speed and a decent amount of noise reduction. Only negative has been the creep. We recently switched from D97 to 8125 to get less creep-so far so good.
Wonder how long this thread is gonna get   :eek:

I have 6 strand DF97 on several 52-56 lb bows and 8 strand on 57- 60 lb.  I don't know that I have a superior building technique, but I have not seen the creep that others have complained about. All my loops are padded with enough DF97 to total 16 strands in all of the strings regardless of strand count in the main body and the ends are braided 4 1/2 to 6 inches down from the loops.  I have them on longbows 60 to 68 inches in length, HH, ELB and mild R/D.  I like the quietness and somewhat softer shot I get with all the bows. I have been using them for close to a year (ever since O.L. came up with his findings on the skinny string thread) and I still don't see a down side.  Just my experience.

I just recently dropped from 8 strands to 6 strands flemish D97 and have not got any creep whatsoever from either.

I pad to 14 strands with 12 inch lengths and twist two inches below the fade outs.  I use plenty of red Tex Tite wax.

 

QuoteOriginally posted by AkDan:
so....what is the trick to building an 8 strand d97 that doesnt stretch like the dickens.

D97 doesn't stretch.      :D

hmm...like I said I'll have to play some more, but thanks for the words of encourage ment.  I didnt think my strings were bad till I started dinking with skinny strings.  Who knows maybe they are  :) .

Good post, this is one of those subjects that will bring argument till the cows come home. The one thing that comes up from time to time is the thought that if a thin string breaks it will damage the bow. I have broken at least a half dozen strings on recurves and longbows over the years and never had any damage done to the bow. Just lucky I guess.......

QuoteOriginally posted by AkDan:
so....what is the trick to building an 8 strand d97 that doesnt stretch like the dickens.  

I'm going to tinker some more today with them.   I dont mind tearing one apart and rebulding it...at the price of the material (and shipping ot alaska), that's not a big deal.  But the stretching part is.   I've heard it, and kind of seen it now.   I was thinking if it did stretch a ton, I could jig it up and stretch the snot out of it...rip it apart and rebuild it, and stretch it again?

Try Ultra Cam its thiner and stronger than D97 and no where near the creep.

In my limited experience here is what I've observed. 10 strand 8125 crept more than an 8 strand D97. Remember that 8125 is the same material as D97 but half the thickness. The D97 will creep some. I make my strings with the Flem twist. A brand new string will settle about 1/2 to 3/4 of an inch when put on a bow for 24 hrs. After that it will creep some requiring a couple of twist a few times over several days. Then it stops creeping. I don't pre-stretch after the string is made.

I guess in the future, I will make the string an inch shorter so I won't over twist the string.

Anyone else found this to be the case?

I have made a lot of 12 strand strings with dynaflight 97.  From the time I finish making them I get about 3/4 to 1 inch of difference.  I stretch mine under 300 lbs of tension for about 2 hours.  After that they are pretty stable, and dont move much at all.  Some of it is just the wax in the string squeezing out, some it is stretch, and very little is creep.  I have tried dynaflight 97 down to 6 strands, but did not see that much difference, and dont think it is worth the hassle of making the smaller strings.  With the 12 strand strings, I dont have to double serve to get my nocks to fit, and I dont have to add a bunch of padding in the loops.

Forgot that I add 3 strands of each color (2color string) in the loops. 14 strands in the loops for 8 strand string