Hi All,
I just harvested my first animal with trad gear last weekend. A fine young doe that is ohhhhhh so tender. Everything was textbook: perfect placement, complete pass through with the WW head resulting in top of heart/double lung, she went down inside 40yards.
The shot was 20yds, and I noticed she tried ducking the arrow (albeit unsuccessfully). Even though everything went perfect, with this same scenario and better skills, I would not feel ethical taking a shot much beyond 20yds because of the time it takes the arrow to get there and how fast deer can react. So now I ask myself, how can I increase the performance of my bow? I am shooting a rather heavy arrow, but it is what tuned well for me.
51# BW SAII
standard flemish twist BW string
Hush puppies + bow hush
29" CE Heritage after complete setup total weight of 570gr (11.2gpi)
Do most of you limit your ranges accordingly? Should I bother experimenting with lighter arrows, different string, etc? Just buy heavier limbs?
Thoughts and advice appreciated,
Happy thanksgiving everyone,
Dave
Ummm....you really, really don't need it to shoot any faster.
Bottom line is, your bow makes a noise & until someone invents a bow that'll get an arrow to the deer quicker than the sound, there's always going to be a chance it'll move.
Sorry chief, that just the way it is!
Sounds like you have a good set-up. And there is nothing wrong with limiting your shots to 20 yds. I'd leave it as is. Lighter arrows - probably noisier bow. Heavier limbs - might mess up your shooting.
A nice 8 strand d-97 string will give you some more speed and help quieten the Widow down so you can shoot a little lighter arrow.570gns is overkill if you mainly deer hunt.A new string and dropping arrow weight to 500 or a bit less will make you think you have a new bow and still be overkill for most things we hunt. jmo
Looks to me like you have a great setup right now. More speed is not going to keep the deer from reacting to sound our movement. Work on minimizing the sound your bow makes and you'll be doing about all you can do.
Dang if you think they duck in MO, you should try these TX whitetails. They come out of there mothers ducking.
LOL
Mike
QuoteOriginally posted by wingnut:
Dang if you think they duck in MO, you should try these TX whitetails. They come out of there mothers ducking.
LOL
Mike
:biglaugh: :biglaugh: :biglaugh:
Yeah, I know it's a pretty good setup, and quietness is where it's at, which I admittedly need to work on a little. I need to experiment more with moving the puppies around a bit. Was really thinking about trying a new string and wondering what might work, and if that would necessitate different arrows.
Thanks,
Dave
Dave,
As mentioned above you can't overcome the string jumping with arrow speed.
Make sure all elements of the bow are quiet... vibration, etc.
If your arrow is well tuned, consider a little less fletch height and/or helical. Sometimes it's the arrow noise that scares them.
Also many archers make a lot of movement during shot execution and/or follow through. A video of the process could help you assess that.
Some great points above.........it might help to consider when to shoot. An alert deer will duck the string because they saw you draw, or saw the string and hand move at release, or even saw the arrow.
Sometimes you can catch them with their head down or behind a bush, or looking away. Do everything you can to make the equipment quiet; I think string ducking is about what they see an much as what they hear.
QuoteOriginally posted by Charlie Lamb:
Make sure all elements of the bow are quiet... vibration, etc.
If your arrow is well tuned, consider a little less fletch height and/or helical. Sometimes it's the arrow noise that scares them.
On a slightly different topic then, how the heck do I keep these wensel woodsmans from whistling?
Thanks,
Dave
Sometimes animals can be too close. It is rare for an animal, particularly deer, to not react to the sound of the shot or to the commotion of making a shot. Here is what I think I have learned. When a deer is very close and you take your shot they get startled...I mean, they sort of over react and jump out of their skin. On longer shots, say 20+ yards the noise of the shot, being farther away, does not illicit a startle reaction. Most of the time I will get a look in my direction rather than a "jump the string" reaction, so taking the longer shot, at least for me, has been less startling to the deer and the shot placement, if I am up to it, is often better than the really close shots. I welcome comments.
I would rather my bow be quiet than fast. I have bow hunted since 1968 and limit my shots to around 25 yards and under for whitetail, based on my ability and habit.
Having said that you can quiet your bow and increase the speed by using a skiny string. I use 6 strand 450+ strings, which added around 10 fps and quieted my bow even more than with other strings. Try one from CJC. He is a sponsor here. You don't have anything to loose, but in my opinion will gain in performance and quiet your bow even more.
On recurves I used to use bow hush and cat whiskers to quiet them. On my longbows I only use cat whiskers. They seem to quiet my bow more than any other silencers.
Congatuations on the doe and good shot.
Gil
PS - Ooops I see you are using a BW. I had several BWs as did many of my friends and they required a very high brace height (on ours 8.5" to 9") to remain quiet for us. I would recommend a high brace height and bow hush for the Widow. Play around with it and see what works for you.
QuoteOriginally posted by Bjorn:
Some great points above.........it might help to consider when to shoot. An alert deer will duck the string because they saw you draw, or saw the string and hand move at release, or even saw the arrow.
Sometimes you can catch them with their head down or behind a bush, or looking away. Do everything you can to make the equipment quiet; I think string ducking is about what they see an much as what they hear.
speed of sound and reaction speed and speed of arrow couples to mean surely is more what they see than what they hear (ithink!) quite has gotten me a second shot though
Bill, I have come to the same conclusion that you have. Seems that they don't get near as up-set at 20 as they do at 8.-----Bone
One thing to consider, is that it's been scientifically proven time and time again that they can still duck the fastest compound out there - given the right circumstances. So as pointed out above, take high % shots and work to ensure the animal is calm. If you have to make an audible grunt to stop a deer to shoot...aim low, it WILL duck. Best to shoot when calm and quiet your bow as much as possible as that has more effect than arrow speed in my mind and experience!
Good luck!
Gosh Rob- you sounded like me. That should be scary, LOL. Check out "Whitetail Dreams" featuring Barry Wensel fo some very good info regarding "string jumping." My honest opinion regarding arrow weight is that one should find an arrow that not only tunes extra well to the bow but, also, meets the tragectory most easily seen and assimilated into action by the shooter. Congratulations on your deer. For goodness sake, if it ain't broke, don't fix it. Grant
You made a perfect shot with your setup. But with that said by all means experiment. That's the fun stuff. Remember with lighter arrows comes more noise though. Noise makes unaware deer duck and there's the trade off. Believe me an aware deer can duck the string at 10 yards no matter how fast you get it going.
My 2 penny's
It's not broke, don't fix it.
I have never shot WW broadheads, but i have shot snuffers and deadheads. They all have a whistle. I have never had one jump the string from it, though. I shoot a longbow that is very quiet, when the deadheads whistle, it only seems to make the deer look my direction, not jump. By then it is over.
I have virtually the same setup as you, down to using the same weight arrow and head. Two things I have done to my setup, both help quiet my Widow down to the point where it's just a soft dull "thump".
1. I use a padded loop string.
2. Someone mentioned it earlier...I keep my brace at 9 inches.
Give the brace height a try first as it's the easiest and see if you hear a difference. Obviously you'll have to have a string made but there's a bunch of folks around that'll make you a padded loop string.
Good luck.
I agree with much that has already been said. My set up is almost identical to yours; BW SA. 55# @ 31". 550gr. arrow with 250 up front. Brace height at 8 5/8". Two sets of rubber whiskers and wool yarn on the string @ the limbs have worked great.
I may not be aware enough, but I have yet to actually "see" a deer jump the string under 20 yds. I usually shoot when they are not alert, and actually take most of my deer when they are moving. I like a slow walking deer at 20 yd. or less. That 10-15 yd. slowly walking is puuuurrfect!!
If my math is correct, 200 f.p.s.( which would be scorching for a trad. bow) is around 136 m.p.h and the speed of sound is right at 750 m.p.h. I could not agree more with the previous posts that quiet is a lot better than fast.
My thought is also to quiet the bow.
Bowhush or yarn served around the string for the first couple inches at the loops and moleskin on the limb where it hits plus heavier arrows will all help quiet it down. Also make sure that you are not hitting your sleeve or a pocket flap at all when wearing your hunting clothes. If you are using arrows with tight snap nocks that sometimes causes more noise. You can change nocks, go to a skinnier serving or just pull some sandpaper through the nock to soften the snap action. You can also switch out your sideplate and shelf to the fuzzy side of velcro, moleskin, seal fur or something similar if you are getting noise there.
Beyond that, all I can think of is to go to a longbow or selfbow. Most all of them are quieter than recurves but some recurves can be made to shoot very quiet too. The Widows I've been around have mostly been a little on the noisy side.
As for the Woodsman heads whistling, I've never used them but have heard lots of guys mention the noise and I THINK that one of the common answers was to put vaseline on them and it quiets them down. No idea how much you need and it sounds about like a snipe hunt to me but I'm sure I've heard it said here.
On longer shots, say 20+ yards the noise of the shot, being farther away, does not illicit a startle reaction.
Bill. I couldn't agree more. I smile when someone posts that the animal has more time to get out of the way at 20-25 yards.
The closer they are the more violently they react to the sound of the bow.
Matter of fact, I've found that a bowhunter can get by with more of everything when he's not right on top of the deer.
Ground standers especially may not be doing them selves a favor by setting up for the 10-15 yard shot.
But then not many seem to be comfortable at 20-25 yards these days.
Dave, great job on your deer! My only suggestion would be in your off season (don't mess with your setup now) is to build an arrow that weighs in at aprox 500grns & give it a try. Experimenting is part of the fun & keeps the fire burning inside! (grin) Test it out & see if you like your results when compared to your present arrow!
That 500grn arrow is still plenty heavy for your 51# draw wt. I've used this arrow wt now for a few years out of a 55# longbow & have had a pass-through on both bull elk & heavy bodied mule deer in the 250#-270# class at 32yds, so the arrow is plenty as long as it's tuned to your setup & has razored up heads!
For instance, my arrow to date is a beman mfx carbon 500 at 27 1/2" long, I have a 75grn brass insert & a 125 grn head for 200grn up-front, my actual total wt is 496grn. You could use that same arrow but make it a bit longer to spine for your setup, maybe in the 28 1/2" range. If need be you can also play with the insert wt as it can be tailored to different grn wt, it doesn't have to be 75grns. Just a thought for a bit of fun! (grin)
ElkNut1
Beyond the "if it ain't broke don't fix it", there are few things that will get you a faster set-up, but that doesn't mean they won't still jump the string. But it is fun to fool around with different arrows during the off season.
Like Elknut said, dropping down to about a 500gr arrow will get you some speed, but might add a little to the sound of the bow.
Going to a "skinny string" of high performance material will help you gain a little speed and might even quiet your bow. Some people find that to be the case.
Like Charlie said, a little less fletch and maybe less helical. Won't be much at all as far as speed, but will probably be a little quieter.
Different silencer materials might give small gains.
Your set up is fine, but just some things you can have some fun with when you get some time.....
Good stuff up top. I would get the bow tuned to be as quiet as you can and then work on shot execution.I would suggest that you start with picking your draw and shot time. If your bow is slower than the speed of sound, then a deer has a chance to duck. My worst "duck" was on a big ole doe at 4 FEET from my tree(yes,it still baffels me.)I do not remember any ducks beyond 10-12yds tho. That all being said, I have killed nearly 20 deer over the last 5-6yrs UNDER 10yds. In fact I have only killed one deer over 15yds for about 6-8yrs. The longest was the above doe that I got back into me and double lunged her at 28yds. the same night.
This is all to say that I watch my scent, get me and my set up Quiet! Then I try to be ready for the shot BEFORE the shot comes. Bow up and tracking the critter coming in. Then it is just small and SLOW but Smoothe motions to get the arrow off the string. Once I quit wearing synthetic clothing, I stopped spooking deer with my draw and release,Thats why I love wool so much(I'm just saying).
It sounds like your set up is fine, and I do not mean to say that you do not know how to hunt. This is just a few things that have helped me over the years and is what keeps me in the woods. I like to put me against the wits that allow suvival in nature.When I "win" I eat good and sleep well.
Good luck,
Chuck
Pad the loops of your string with yarn or have one made with padded loops. Take your brace height up to about 8 3/4 to 9 inches. You will see very little difference in the shooting of the bow. But the noise level will be astoundingly less. Good luck and have fun. I've had them duck wheelie bows at 300+ fps and still had them duck selfbows at 160 Fps. Pick your shots wisely, remember sometimes the best shot is not to shoot at all. High percentage shots equal high percentage recoveries. Big Ed
All good advice above and couldn't agree more , I can only add that a whitetails ability to "jump" the string or react to it is akin to have some piece of dust come right at your eye! You blink and it hits your eyelid and you didn't even have time to think about it! It was just your brain reconizing the danger and doing the right thing without YOU even having to think about it.