Trad Gang

Ok, I've read many threads on here and recently read about a fellow who was really frustrated for missing a big buck. Commented that he would've gotten it with a compound. I guess I don't understand how that relates to missing the deer. To me the only difference between the two is effective range. Why does missing have anything to do with it?  Seems to me that your success in hitting the target should not depend on equipment. It should be directly related to shot selection regardless of weapon. You should not shoot if you don't think you can hit the target. So there's my question - do traditional hunters miss more often than other hunters?  Doesn't seem logical to me, but I hear of A LOT of missed shots. Why are they misses? Kind of seems like it gives us a bad name. Maybe shots are taken that shouldn't be?  Ok, so let me be very clear - I am not condemning anyone and am not casting the first stone. I have missed with traditional gear for many reasons. Mostly the same reasons I missed with other weapons.

We might.I'm not sure.I know the guys with the high tech gear miss more than they should and I also know that we get shots off in situations and angles where they can't even shoot.I suspect it is close to even,for that reason,at least as far as game seen,game harvested.

I just switched back to trad 8 months ago.  I can say that while in the thralls of buck fever hitting with a rifle or compound with sights was never a problem for me.  I could shoot out to 60 yards accurately with the compound and kept my shots at 40 and under to make sure of my kills.  

Trad in the thralls of buck fever with no sights is definately harder for trad shooters in my view.  I am keeping all shots this year at 20 yards and under, beyond that I tend to focus on to large of a part of the deer and could miss or wound the critter.  It was much easier to center the right pin on the kill and pull the trigger on my release, knowing I would hit where I was aiming with the compound.

It is more difficult in my view to shoot sucessfully with trad.  There are no props, no sights, nothing to really reference off of except your anchor ( I shoot instinctive).  Having said that, those things are what I love about Trad.  It is all me.  Nothing and no one to blame but me for good and bad shots.  

Really good trad shots don't have problems with all the variables, they have shot enough to have everything committed to muscle memory.  Newer and less experiences shooters / hunters struggle with them a lot.  Focusing on a hair is something I am still working on.

People gut shoot deer with a scoped rifle.  Why?
People miss turkeys with a magnum shotgun at twenty-five yards.  Why?   A bumble bee is has too heavy a body for its wings but it can still fly.  Why?

Missing is not in the weapon, so why would missing give the sport or weapon a bad name? And, there are many mitigating circumstances that can cause a miss; there's more space around them than there is on them!  8^).

Life if full of mysteries that cause us to ask why.  But if you use a little sense, you can figure out your first question.  He (maybe) would have got it with his compound, because it had a sight on it and he was able to pull it and hold it and wait.  So maybe he really could have got it with the compound.  Yet the comparison is irrelevent because he didn't have the compound with him.

As far as wounding goes, it relies on the archer committing to his or her personal limitations.  That alone will not create a perfect shot however, as the animal has some say in the process.  The answer for this is about twenty pages long so I will not go any further, as it would still end in a question, rather than an answer.

Well, I'll throw my two cents into the pot...

Yes, I do think that guys hunting with trad bows miss more often.  Mainly because for most people it takes a lot longer to get good at shooting with no sights and estimating range.  There are plenty of guys out there who can head shoot squirrels out to 20+ yards with a recurve or longbow but most shooters seem to average about an 8 inch group at 20 yards.  The important criteria to me is where does the very first arrow of the day go?  Groups are just harder to shoot with a bow that has no sights on it.

Give you an idea, an average shooter can be taught to shoot with a compound bow and sights and be shooting hunting size groups in a day or two.  The same guy trying to learn to shoot barebow might take 2 to 5 years to get the same results.  But it's just so FUN that they can't resist hunting with it anyway.  They say, well, I'll only shoot a deer inside of 15 yards but then when a buck walks in at 20 or 25, they shoot anyway and often miss.

Also, until you actually kill a couple deer, it is often a mentally "rattling" experience to shoot at one.  It's just sooooo exciting!  It's really easy to forget to pick a spot and shoot at the whole deer.  In fact, that is probably the number one reason for missing with a trad bow.  On a bow with sights, you have an aiming dot right there in front of you and it is natural to put it on the deer where you want to hit.  Shooting barebow, you have to imagine your spot and see it on the deer.  

Then there is often the extreme desire to kill a deer coupled with the attitude that "this way is harder" and it's almost like people expect to miss.  You know, we hear over and over that trad bows are more of a challenge.  It MUST be really hard to kill a deer with one...  It's just one more little nagging doubt for the new shooter.  But it's FUN so we keep at it.  

Hopefully, before we wound one, we kill one cleanly.  Nothing boosts confidence more than success.

I honestly believe that there are many advantages to hunting with trad bows.  You just have to put in your time to get good enough to realize them.  A longer learning curve if you will.

By the way, my above comments about group size and time to learn to shoot are generalities.  I've seen guys take a loooong time to get any good and I've seen others that were able to hit the kill on a 3D target within the first few shots EVER taken.  Different people have different levels of hand eye coordination and there is no getting around that.

Great insights. I like Dave's comment that we sometimes expect to miss. Also, is there more of an acceptance of a miss with a longbow or recurve than with a compound. Granted, and it was eloquently stated above, it is harder to become proficient with trad gear.

I also like the "buck fever" scenario listed above.

I just worry that we may have an acceptance of missing and thus create a mulligan for slinging arrows. We all know that wounding is the ultimate pain.

Again, I'm not exempt from anything mentioned above, just looking for some insights.

complete faith in the shot is important. If you belive you are going to hit and have done your practicing then you will hit unless something unacounted happens. Which sometimes does. However I have noticed that when you have that little , itty bitty doubt come in, that there seems to be more of a chance of missing or making a bad hit.Being on top of your game is simply having confidence in your equipment and in your own ability to the point that you do not question yourself at the moment of truth. Generally that takes a lot of shooting to get there.

I had to edit this. LOl Afterthoughts. Traditional equipment is just as effective and sometimes more than compounds in taking game. If a shooter with a compound goes beyond his shooting ability he will wound game and miss. Same with a recure or longbow shooter. When we know our ability and stay in that range then we are just as effective.

Now the truth. I can shoot 6 in groups with a compound at a much longer range than I can with a longbow. Therefore because of sights and trajectory the compound extends my effective range. However . I can get on an animal and shoot it with a longbow that I would never get a shot at with a compound. They are two different breeds of cat. For overall hunting I prefer the longbow or curve and never feel inferior because of it.Steve

I am still contemplating George's comment about the bummble bee having too heavy a body for it's wings, yet it can fly. George that makes me feel much better about myself. Thanks! Not too sure about the lessons here on the physics of lift and drag.........but it will give me something to think about all day.

Personally, I have made shots that could not be made with a compound. Certain hunting sitations call for a less than full draw. I shot a compound once. I can't imagine being in a position with one that called for a 1/2-3/4 draw with it. The idea of holding the poundage before let off and focusing on a sight and the target, that is just more than I care to deal with. I agree with the posts above. Know your equipment. Honestly, regular outings with friends taking your bows for a walk, doing some stump shooting, calling the shots 'before you turn loose of the arrow'. These things train the eye/brain to range objects, build confidence in trusting the voice in your head that tells you when to shoot. I don't get too much hunting practice out of shooting groups anyway. Not to say I can't, but it doesn't apply to my shooting/hunting style.

Also, spending time hunting your game. Put a stand up in the yard. Shoot from it. Best to get in a bind in the yard shooting at foam than just assuming that every game animal is going to go out of it's way to walk right in front of you and stop broadside at 10 yards. Getting in your effective range is paramount to success afield. Why set up a stand 40 yards from a trail if you don't shoot at game more than 20? Why can the bummble bee fly George?

Just my .02.

Practice, practice, practice. Guys who say I would have got it with my compound, usually haven't been with the Trad bow very long and many times aren't ready to be out there with a Trad bow anyways. Small game hunt, 3D, target, blank bale, invest yourself into the art of shooting and know your abilities and you won't miss anymore than you would with any other weapon you invest yourself in.

You can put sites on a Trad bow to if you need/want them. They were on them for a long time before compounds were around.

I for one, and it is totally a personal opinion, think that the trad community AS A WHOLE tends to accept missing more and simply vocalize more.  For example, we read alot about poor shots on game that are found on here than you hear about in the compound communitities.  I do think trad in general miss more because many hunt with trad that shouldn't be.  It takes more, again, in general, to truly be competent with trad equipment.  I used to work in a pro shop and we could set up a compound "ready to go" so that anyone with any hand/eye coordination could shoot a kill zone in minutes.  Not usually the case with trad equipment.  I think it's generally just more accepted in our community of archers.  Me personally, I've missed with all forms of weapons at one time or another due largely to buck fever - no excused other than plain ole lack of concentration on my part.  Not the equipment in my hand, but the brain in my head.  I will say the margin for error is much greater with trad -- i.e. more speed and power from the compounds can yield a killing hit, whereas the same shot on a deer with traditional may be a clean miss.  Lot's of variables to consider and all above have listed great points.

Actualy, It has been YEARS(lots of them)since I have shot a compound,so I'm really not sure if this is true.....

Years ago I had a real good friend of mine convince me to join his archery club. It was a mostly "compound shooters" club but there were several of us traditional shooters and they always made us feel welcome and never treated us like we were "differant". As I came to know more of the guys,they all asked why I shot a longbow instead of a compound.I told them because I considered the longbow a "simple" tool,and it was easier than fooling with all of those little gadjets and gizmos on a compound. They were flabergasted!!!!! They told me that a compound was definately "easier","just like shooting a gun",etc. I asked them about shooting 3-D and the various ranges from target to target,and thier reply was."If your bow is fast enough,you only need 1 sight pin". It seems the faster,Faster,FASTER mindset is to eventualy get a bow where you have only 1 pin out to 50 yards.
They tried everything they could to achieve this goal,faster bows,lighter arrows,mechanical broadheads,etc.

With this mentality,I can honestly see them hitting thier target more than we do. So yes,probly we do "miss" more than they do,but what is thier recovery rate??? Is it as good as ours with our deep penetrating heavy arrows and our sturdy cut on contact broadheads??? I really don't think so, But.....

Brent....there is no analogous legitimacy about the bumble bee vs missing a deer, the reference was for the word "why!"

Simple answer is yes, I believe we do.  Trad is harder which is why there are so few of us in the whole scheme of things.

Have you ever watched Trad Archers at a 3d shoot?  There are many of them that should be using a different weapon when they go hunting, can't hit the proverbial broadside of a barn.  Each individual has to determine what their effective range is and stick with it.

How do bees fly?

"How do bees fly?"

The real question is how can a Horse-fly?

I agree that the answer is probably "yes", but should it be?

I don't think we should accept "missing more" as a part of traditional archery because it is harder. We shouldn't be shooting unless we have the confidence of hitting the target that any hunter should have with any weapon.  Now Buck Fever has caused many a hunter to miss regardless of weapon. I still get rattled and can sometimes barely hold it together, sometimes I can't...

I'm really curious about the "house fly"!

It is more likely true that trad archers miss more often, but like its been said we accept it alot better than a compound shooter.  If we miss a buck of the lifetime, we go out tomorrow and try again.  No reason to dwell on it, because you know he is still alive and you may get another crack at him.

I just make sure I am in a hunting situation where i know i can make the shot before i take it.  There's always instances where you will miss, that's part of the sport.

You only miss more if you accept being a mediocre shooter. Recovery rates on game are the same across all weapons. Misses happen by all hunters as do woundings, buck fever isn't weapon selective.

Yes!

 ElkNut1

When my Pearson recurve and my compound burned up in a house fire, I bought a longbow. Why? Because I had learned that in the thick woods that I normally hunt, shots are rarely over 20 yards, and I knew that I could hit the kill zone consistently without the wheels at that range. During my compound years I missed as many as I do with traditional gear. I've taken a few long shots successfully, but I'm much more concerned about wounding on any shot over 20 yards, regardless of bow type. Too much can happen while the arrow is on its way to the target. Deer don't stand still for long, unless you're really lucky.

One thing I have noticed here on TradGang is that our members here who are "on the fence" between traditional and compound bows is that they seem to assume that if they "could have hit him with my compound" they would have automaticaly recovered the deer.

As David said,recovery rates on game are the same with all weapons,but I think that penetration/broadhead failures are as common with compounds as misses are with traditional bows.(i.e.# of arrow failures vs # of trad misses) Every time I miss a deer,I thank the Great One that it was a clean miss,and the deer left unscathed..... The fence sitters think,"I should have used my compound". I believe this is part of the transition to traditional archery and will pass with time and experiance.

Just my thoughts.....

yes, I think it's because people get in too big of a hurry to shoot, not picking a spot instead of a whole deer and allowing for the drop.

But Of course we do ....

QuoteOriginally posted by vermonster13:
Guys who say I would have got it with my compound, usually haven't been with the Trad bow very long and many times aren't ready to be out there with a Trad bow anyways.  

Compounds offer certain advantages over traditional bows, and traditional bows offer certain advantages over compounds. I don't think acknowledging that fact is an indicator of whether or not someone is ready to hunt with a traditional bow.    ;)

For some reason, many consider missing to be ok and just part trad hunting. I refuse to accept it - it eats me up when it happens and I want to know why. I also find it strange how many seem to go from missing several direct to a kill - doesn't make since for obvious reasons.

Yes, and that level of "challenge" is why I love traditional archery.

I agree with a few of the previous posts that wheel bows can be like shooting a "gun"

I also don't understand some of the posts that allude to the "if I was shooting my wheel bow I would have gotten him" kind of story.

I absolutely love the challenge of trad archery and while I do practice every day when a deer is right there anything can and does happen. Misses happen. Not happy about it but I also realize that is part of the process and reminds me why I hunt....for the HUNT.

I missed a doe out of a ground blind a couple weeks ago. Before that, I do not remember when I missed the last deer I shot at. I shot a bunch over the years. Once they get into my effective 30yd range and I am up 20 ft  in a tree, it just happens. I missed more with a compound when I was a teenager before I switch back to traditional in the 80"s. I think the traditional bow is much easier to shoot.
I also have to say, I went Elk hunting a few years and shooting across that ground was a different story so I went home empty handed. I still think it is about how close you can get as opposed to how far a shot you can take.

Hey we don't miss we just practice at odd times.

Wel, let's see...traditional archery has been around at least 10,000 years give or take a few thousand. Compounds have been around, what 50 years? I don't know; I never read much about compounds and never shot one. Anyway, if traditional bows had a huge "miss" rate, I think a lot of people would have starved to death. Maybe the entire human race would have died out---who knows? The weapon certainly wouldn't have been kept if it was inaccurate and didn't work.

Let's not forget something else. A lot of wars and battles were won with traditional bows. In many battles, longbows went up against crossbows which were theoretically more accurate and the longbow-armed side won.

Yeah, maybe compounds might be more accurate. But until it's been more accurate for another 9,950 years, one can't say it's better than traditional bows.   :archer:

I missed some shots this year that I would have made with my compound. this is my first year of shooting only trad gear and it's been full of ups and downs. i feel very confident with my set up out to 20yds and my few misses were well under that. Mostly I just rushed and didn't pick a spot to concentrate on. I think the compound has advantages over trad gear. when i shot, I had an anchor point, string on my nose, kisser in the corner of my mouth and looking at a sight through a peep. You pretty much HAD to be doing everything the same. with trad you really just have your anchor and sight picture. with a sight I just had to place the pin in the crease without really picking a hair. i could draw well before deer came into range, easily holding for a minute or 2, so i was much less likely to get "picked off". i also didn't have to wait for the perfect angle with the modern, highly efficient 85# comound i was shooting. i could take quartering toward shots, not to mention shots at 50 or more yds was no problem as long as the deer was standing and calm.

I see very little "advantage" to trad bows, other than being able to get a shot off quicker.

That being said, i missed quite a few deer when i first started with the compound, even though i was shooting great, so i figure starting with trad is very similar. I am getting more and more confident and calmer with every deer I take with trad gear. i figure in the next season or 2 i will be shoting just as well as my compound, within each weapons effective range. it's a steep learning curve and the only way to actually learn is to get out there and hunt(assuming you are shooting well enough on targets)

I hope that by sticking with my trad gear from now on, I won't have any "if i had my compound" stories next season.

Personally I tend to either smoke them where they stand or when my shot's off it clears the entire animal with room to spare.  I know the reason why; it's all about concentration, AKA: picking a spot.  Luckily, I rarely have this happen since I limit my shots to CLOSE range where I can see specific features, hairs, etc. on the animal to focus on.   Here's something for you, I helped guide spring bowhunting bear hunters for over 14 years.  During that time I tried to keep stats on who did what with which type of bow.  Stickbow shooters simply shot better (more one arrow quick kills), and had less misses and wounding on bears than compound shooters.  Perhaps it was the shorter shot distances at bait sites, patience, shooting in low light, etc. - I'm not completely sure, however I witnessed the results.

There can be lots of misses with any weapon.It allways comes back to the one pulling the string and his ability and good judgement or lack of it.On the shot distances most of us take while hunting yes there will be far more misses and wounds if distances were keep the same than for any bow using sight pins and release.Equipment has nothing to do with misses.Operator error is the culprit and always will be since any weapon is capable of doing the job if we do ours.I have never hunted with anything and wished because of the outcome I had carried something different.If I had wanted to hunt with a different bow I would have carried it in the first place.jmo

I think there are two big factors (aside from using a rangefinder and having pins)in the missing of game.  One is a bit of doubt in the archers ability.  Most of us practice a lot, but often go through a bad day or week or more of shooting.  When that animal is right in front of you I think sometimes there is that memory of the "bad spell", which can actually make the mind miss, rather than be a little off and wound the deer.  I know this happened to me once.  Also a live moving deer is different than targets or even foam, so I think we sometimes mis-judge distance, which can cause a miss.  That said I would rather shoot my recurve accurately at the 20 and under distance than my buddy who can hit a tea plate sized target out past 50.  It just feels more like breathing, natural.

jcar315, The statement "If I had my compound I would have got him" is in quotes.....

That is because this is the statement most often posted by the hunters making the traditional transition.

That is the reason that I think it is part of the transitional process. When everything is set up,and just right,their arrows always hit their mark. This is what they have become accustomed to. As the transition progresses,they will start to realize that their mind,eye,body sets up the process for them. That is why it's called "instinctive" shooting.

"You only miss more if you accept being a mediocre shooter."

I agree with that...plus some. Guys in camp this year heard me say, when asked about the shots I passed on..."Nope, it wasn't a slam dunk shot". I said that exact same sentence, often enough that I expected a big LaClair bear paw to the back of my head.

Thats my new mantra. If it isn't an absolute, slam dunk shot, I'm not  taking it.

I asked Fred Asbell once how close he likes his shots in the woods. He said "I like to have the arrow still on my string when it starts to penetrate" or something to that effect. Obviously he was kidding, but that always stuck with me.

The point of this sport to me...traditional archery...is to use everything I have aquired, all my "woodsmanship", and be as close as possible when I release the string. I'm an ok shooter, but at the range I hunt, it doesn't matter. Hunt close, and the missing stops.

You need to be able to pass up shots, no matter the trophy. And if you NEED to kill a deer, hunt with something else. Respectfully.

Maybe this would be a good time to help out our fellow brothers and sisters with their shooting. If your new at trad or having a little confidence problem, I'll bet if you contacted a Trad-Gang member close to you, many here would be glad to help you. If anyone near me needs a little help, PM me and I would be happy to assist in any way I can. Tom Bateman

QuoteOriginally posted by George D. Stout:
"How do bees fly?"

The real question is how can a Horse-fly?

On a plane...

I agree with Roger. I pass on lots and lots of deer every year, probably more than I need to. I don't wish I had some different weapon when I do that; I just know I did the right thing. I have missed, sure, but not often. I watch the "bow hunting" shows on television and see compound shooters miss. Worse yet, I see how little penetration they get and how accepting they are of marginal...even poor hits.

I have no practical experience with a compound. I tried one for a few shots at a target, didn't enjoy it, so I stuck with traditional gear and have NO regrets. I see nothing inherently wrong with compound bows, but I do wish some of those who shoot them would use better penetrating arrow set-ups. If I ever get to the point when I just can't shoot traditional equipment, I may very well try a compound again, but I'll stick with my heavy arrows, high FOC, and cut on contact broadheads.

Do we miss more overall? I doubt it.

We miss because we lost focus on "the spot". How many times have you missed a shot that you thought was a gimmie? More than once for me. The reason we miss on those close, can't miss shots, is because we shift our attention right before the release to "does he see me". How many times have you heard "I rattled one through his rack"? Why? Because right before the release you move from burning a hole in what you want to hit to peeking at the head gear. So that's where the arrow goes. And when it's all done and over with you pick a tiny spot on the ground and drill it. Shooting traditional is 90% a mind game. Focus and concentration puts the arrow where you want it. Burn a hole in what you want to hit and concentrate on that spot until you hear the arrow hit.

I might be the odd ball on this one.  I have missed and wounded more deer with a compound than I have with trad.  I can't really explain it, but I know that I had plenty of problems when I shot wheels.  I could shoot targets pretty good, but deer were a different story too many times to count.   Don't get me wrong, I still miss with trad gear, but I think overall my percentages are better now than they were before.  Strange, but true!

With me, it is all between my ears! I liken it to when I played alot of ball. There were days on the court when I KNEW I was going to hit whatever shot I took. Made no difference where I was, if I was double or even triple teamed...it was a done deal. Those were the days that I was mentally prepared. Once I learned the basics of shooting a basketball and positioning myself on the floor, it was a mental game. TOTAL concentration on the shot and the task at hand. I didn't worry about missing, only on making the shot. If I did miss, I concentated even harder on correcting whatever error I'd made before, knowing that the next shot was going to be "money"!!

When I head to the woods or the 3-D range, if I have alot on my mind.....family or money problems, job issues or whatever, I MIGHT shoot o.k., but it takes me awhile to get in the "groove". There have been alot of times that I have let deer pass because the shot doesn't feel right. In other words, my concentration level is NOT where it should be. Those are the days that just being in the woods is what my mind needs.

Two seasons ago, I missed two shots at does within the first 15 minutes of being on stand. 3 hours later, I made as good a shot as I have ever made at a deer at twice the distance.
1. After missing the shot(s) I replayed the misses in my mind.
2. I realized that in both cases, I DID NOT PICK A SPOT...I shot at the deer, not a spot on the deer!
3. Instead of dwelling on the missed shots, I concentrated on the good shots I had made in the past, whether on game or at the range.

It is up to each of us to prepare ourselves both physically and mentally to do what is necessary to cleanly kill game. Mentally, I NEED to pratice with my bow regularly throughout the season. I shoot under the dusk to dawn light when I get home from work, maybe just two or three arrows. Just enought to keep my confidence level high. If I don't "feel" the shot when I draw my bow on an animal, I don't shoot. Doesn't mean I am going to make the perfect shot on every animal I shoot at as there are many variables, but it is going to be the absolute best shot I can make, or I won't take it.
Yes, I do pass up alot of shots!!! LOL!!
Oh yeah....I have missed fewer shots with my traditional bows than with a compound.
At least that is the way it works for me! Mike

Pick a spot.Simple as that.(Assuming you've gone through the blank bailing,target practice and all that jazz)

My buddy(Who is a wheel shooter) had to draw and hold on a deer this year until it stepped out from behind a tree and he shot right over it's back.The deer came back in and he connected on the second shot.

I had to explain to him that even though he uses sights,he still has to pick a spot,just like I do.  ;)

For what it is worth: Just watched the Fred Bear "Canadian Grizzly Bear Hunt" on DVD. The angle of the camera on Fred's first shot is from above and is truly amazing. Fred sneaks up on the bear feeding and shoots right over his back.

Did ol' Fred have a doubt in his ability? Not practice enough? Only Fred will know. Did it make him some how less of a trad hunter because he missed?? I don't think so. He just missed....like alot of us have. Showing that IMO makes him even more like "every-man" in that he wasn't perfect.

I was hunting with Whip in WI this year and had a great time there with good friends. I had a 10 to 12 yard shot at a really nice buck and just shot right under him. It never even occured to me to think that I might have gotten him with a wheel bow. I was just thankful to be there, hunting in an awesome place, with great friends, and put myself in the right place at the right time.

If I wanted to take the "human element" out of the equation I would have used a different weapon instead of my chosen weapon of a recurve bow. I switched to trad gear to limit myself as much as I could and enjoy the hunt and not just the harvest.

It was a "glorious miss" that I will remember for a life time! Thanks Whip!!!!

QuoteOriginally posted by vermonster13:
Practice, practice, practice. Guys who say I would have got it with my compound, usually haven't been with the Trad bow very long and many times aren't ready to be out there with a Trad bow anyways. Small game hunt, 3D, target, blank bale, invest yourself into the art of shooting and know your abilities and you won't miss anymore than you would with any other weapon you invest yourself in.

x2 all day long.

I belong to another forum,and I've seen guys post pics of their trad groups.Some of thier 15 yard groups look like my 30 yard groups.  Then they post wounding stories.Say something about it and you're the bad guy.  :rolleyes:  

The weapon is only as good as the time you're willing to invest in it.Shooting 20 arrows 3 times a week don't cut it in my book.

I am one of those ones having a very difficult time transitioning over to trad gear only. My confidence in shooting a compound is as strong as it gets. Nearly all my shots are under 20 yds. You would think transitioning over would be easy. But no matter how much I practice not every shot goes where I want like with a compound. I hate missing & even worse losing an animal, and I just can't get over that hump with trad gear. I've gotten on streaks where I was pretty sure of myself leading into the season, but still always had that doubt in the back of my mind.

From what I can see based on posts trad bow hunters do miss more shots.  That could just be the nature of the site and the honesty we get here.  A lot of it comes down to experience, personal limitations, and skill.  There are hunters that miss all the time with guns.  I hear them miss 5 times in a row everyday during the gun deer season when I am out.  If you don't know your weapon, do a lot of practice and shoot within your effective range then you are going to miss a lot.  Oh ya by the way your effective on game range is not the same as your effective target range.  I always figure minimum 1/3 less effective range on game than what I get 100% kill shots on targets.  That is a trad bow, wheels or a gun.

I have done both trad and wheels.  I only ever missed one deer in about 50 with wheels.  Kind of like shooting a rifle with a scope vs. a smooth bore shotgun and slugs. For me it is all about range.  I don't shoot over 35 yd. with wheels and that is a slam dunk shot for me.  I have really had to cut my range down with a trad bow.  This year that has been 15 yd.  I shot to 25 all the time, and most days I make kill shots at that range.  Then all of a sudden I throw some bad shots.  I find it real easy to short draw, get my arm in the way, pluck the string, or any number of other form mistakes under pressure.  With wheels I have sights, a trigger release, and a wall to pull against so I don't short draw, over draw or collapse.  When I make a bad shot with wheels it is 3" off at 40 yd. When I make a bad shot with a trad bow it is 12" off at 20 yd.  That is a big difference.

Well I'll go on record as saying the precentages of hit's, misses and wounding is the same for all weapons like mentioned before. There is a precentage of folks regardless of the weapon that decides to put forth the effort of mastering it and only taking slam dunk shots regardless of the size of the trophy and are completely happy with no shot days.

Now for compounders I've seen guys who can regularly shoot ping pong balls out to forty yards but yet miss or wound deer every year because they think standing on level ground with a perfect stance  checking the bubble level etc is the same as being 18' high on a small platform with adrenline running through your veins waiting on a deer to step into your shooting lane. It's is WAY easier to punch paper targets accurately with a compound than a recurve BUT that does not transfer to hunting. I've seen the same for stickbows also but think alot of failures here relate to the it's expected or OK to miss which is bull also.

I've seen the same mentallity here as "Yeah I hunt in the rain but wait for the absolute 100% chance for a killing shot". I'm thinking isn't that what we all should do every single day regardless of the weather or weapon? Just recently I've seen several posts about straight down shooting on deer with 3 pages of responses of thats great, awesome shot! I'm sorry but that's a LOW PRECENTAGE SHOT EVERY TIME!! YOU GOT LUCKY go buy a lottery ticket, no wait you've used up your luck! Yeap I did it once and since then lets just say I've let lots and I mean lots of animals go if that's the only shot given and have no regrets! So flame on thats my opinion.

I tend to agree that trad shooters may miss more, or perhaps we are are simply more open about admitting it.But I have heard more compound shooters talk about sticking one but not recovering it.

This is tremendous discussion. I think there is pretty good concensus that practice makes perfect, buck fever is real, trad shooters admit misses more readily than most, and missing happens but the likelihood can be drastically reduced by shot selection and physical and mental preparation. Pretty much the same for all weapons.

You all can beat on me later but I'm sure, as a group, trad people miss much more than compound people.  I go to the ETAR and watch hundreds of people shoot and I can honestly say that if I shot like 95% of them I'd never carry my bow to the woods.  I know most people on this site are pretty dedicated but we have to be honest about it.  I've only missed the very first ETAR and my son and I have followed hundreds of groups of shooters around the ranges and the average yahoo is when somebody actually hits the target.  Sorry but like we all know everybody has an opinion and most of them stink but this is mine.

Well, we should miss more if we aren't really patient and picking our shot.  The "compound" is not really a bow, it's a machine that let's off 65 to 80 percent; you can hold it for minutes at a time; you have a trigger to release the string; and a sight pin to place on the target prior to squeezing the trigger.  I get a little tired of the comparison....especially when we had to "change the definition of a bow" to accomodate its use in the archery seasons about thirty-couple years ago.  It's just a stock apart from a crossbow.

As for missing and wounding?  Hardly anyone is in the woods after rifle season to see the blown-off legs, and other forms of wounds from bad shooting.  And yes, I am a rifle hunter as well and I have seen the outcome.

We have chosen a sport that is not perfect, and a style that challenges us to be better than the average hunter in order to succeed on a regular basis.  We can only hope to do our best to limit misses and wounding shots, by limiting ourselves to a comfort zone and sticking to those opportunities.  Usually, it's when we straddle the line that issues come about.

No

IMO you answered the question with your post......

You got misser's shooting every kind of equipement there is.  I know a group of wheelie shooters that will let an arrow fly at about any distance if there is a "chance" it will hit a trophy buck.  In the public area they hunt, a fair number of foul shot trophy bucks get found rotting away ever damn season because of them........disgusting.

........it isn't weapon specific, it all comes down to the person behind the weapon!

I still pick up the compound here and there but spend most of my time with the recurve.  I really can't say I have missed with one more then the other.  I know since I started hunting with the recurve the 'way' I have hunted has changed.  When I hunt with the compound I can shoot double the distance so set up's were easier.  That being said I have shot several animals with the recurve I couldn't of with the compound.  

Elk hunting in some of the areas I hunt, the recurve is a way better 'tool' then the compound.  Thick cover makes shots close and fast.

I don't think I have ever held the recurve and wished I had my compound though? Even after missing a giant.

I believe that the statement " I coulda got him with a compound" is very real.  As was stated above  a compund is a couple steps above a recurve or longbow in terms of ease of accuracy.  

I know almost nobody who shoots a compound bare bow with fingers.  Everybody has $500 worth of added on do-dad's.  Does this help ?  Darn right it does. Every time you add a do-dad it helps with accuracy.  The release, the HUGE let-off, the front sight, the rear peep, etc etc.  

Compounds are not even in the same ball park as "traditional" bows, just the same as a scoped in-line is not even close to a primitive smoke pole.

Missing is caused by a lot of things.  We have to move to shoot.  No question.  We cannot draw while the deer is 50 yards away and just wait for it to get there.  Deer jump the string a ton.
They also (I believe) tend to jump more if it is from a closer source.  Trad tends to try to get closer.

Missing is also caused by just plain not hitting where you are aiming.  Was that cause you are not practicing enough or because you, for that moment, got excited and didn't pick a spot?

It is so much easier to do all this when you have a sight to place onto the target and all day to hold.

I also know that using a compound doesn't mean each shot is a hit.  Distance is critical and it seems that each year that passes more and more folks are shooting farther and farther.

There are some simple facts here.   Traditional style hunting is not the same as hunting with a compound bow, or a muzzle loader, or a rifle.  It is what it is.  

I chose to carry a trad bow.  

We need to be a bit careful here cause when you start expounding upon the point of Trad being inadequate, "compounds being more accurate"  and "I owe it to the deer"  etc, then you had better count on losing the right to hunt with a bow at all.  

It can easily be extrapolated that although compounds are capable of better accuracy than a recurve, compounds are not as good as a muzzle loader and they are not as good as a .270 and a good .50 cal Barrett in the hands of a skilled shooter will cause the least pain and suffering of all and at the greatest range.

Traditional is traditional,  why are we comparing it to any other form of hunting ?

ChuckC

QuoteWe need to be a bit careful here cause when you start expounding upon the point of Trad being inadequate, "compounds being more accurate" and "I owe it to the deer" etc, then you had better count on losing the right to hunt with a bow at all.

It is completely incorrect to expound that trad is inadequate.  
The bows are completely adequate, with 1000's of years of proof.  The error factor is the person.  
Some people just can't/won't bring themselves to that realization.  
If a person can't find time to become effective; can't adjust to the limitations of a certain weapon or adjust to thier own personal limitations, they need to move to a weapon that suites them better.

Don't blame it on trad equipement.

ChuckC, I think you hit on a very important point that actually makes some sense into why a recurve or longbow "MAY" have a higher miss rate. It is the only thing that I have heard that has any semblance of a reason for a higher miss rate. Other than the fact that we must draw the bow when they are in close proximity, thus alerting them and causing them to "jump the string", there is NO reason we should miss more often.

Let's hear some more comments on the drawing/movement difference between weapons. This actually has some merit in my feeble mind.

I believe "most" trad shooters are more committed to the challange of getting close and when they send an arrow its withing their evective range or at least thats the guys I hunt with.
 Wounding does not come from the choice in hunting weapons but in the lack of discipline on shot selection be it to far or wrong angle..or maybe the animal is spooked and gonna "jump the string.Everone has a limit to how far and some are much closer than others. I can hit pine cones and soda cans consistantly at 40 yards but I can`t remeber more than a couple of shots on game over 20 most under 15.

 I went through a missing and wounding spell when I first began hunting with a tradbow but I never thought about what else I could have made the shot with. I thought about what I could do to get closer.
 I have been keeping up with it the last four years and I have killed and recovered 34 of the last 39 I`ve shot at. I lost a hog and a deer and missed the rest.My Buddy Chris "Landshark 160" has killed I believe something like 16 of the last 18. Magical shots? NO!! Disciplined hunters? YES!

   I don`t put much thought into which weapon is the best or easiest only which one I enjoy the most.RC

As far as the drawing difference between wheels & trad I think that aspect comes in to play MUCH more if you are on the ground. Being up a tree, you can get away with a lot no matter which bow you shoot.

BUT (for me) another aspect comes into play while maintaining concentration thru the draw cycle. It don't matter when, how, or where I am looking when I draw my compound, once I put the pin where it goes, its over. But when shooting trad if I don't focus & "aim" as I slowly draw, my accuracy falls off dramatically. Doing that while focus on a deer that may be walking or partially obscured is a whole new ball game

I think we shoot at game less therefore injure less then compound hunters which seem to have more shots.

I don't post much but I have to tell you that a compound is a huge advantage for ALL but a very select few--but so is a rifle! The compounds are so fast with the light carbons that a hunter can use one pin out to 30yds. He doesn't even have to judge yardage! Couple that with 80% letoff and a release aid and there's just no comparison.
 I've killed 98 deer and 1 hog with trad bows over the last 21 years and I've killed 19 with a compound and the compound was just easier. And my misses with the trad bow sometimes happen at close range not because I tried a shot out of my range. You just have to ask yourself how much of a challenge do you want--rifle, shotgun, crossbow, compound, recurve, selfbow, or slingshot?
Most of my buddies shoot a compound but I still love them! But I do agree with George, the compound is not a bow. However, I'm glad that it's available for those that want to use it.
Rod

I think using "none traditional" equipment is more mechanical and has less margin for error.

If I use my compound and in a tree 20 feet up and a deer walks in anywhere from 5-30 yards I can use one pin. If I am off a little I still make a good shot on the deer provided my equipment hasn't been bumped or come loose (down side to technology).

If I am shooting a recurve I must be more certain of the shot distance and conditions. If my estimation is off I miss.

There are a lot of factors that go into the success of the shot regardless of the equipment.
I could not imagine taking a shot thinking I probably will miss, I would do a mind bend and I would not be successful.

It is like shooting at a steel target with a hole cut out at the 3d range, sure I can put the arrow in the spot all day with out the steel up but if the steel is there I know where my arrow hits.

Compound shooter are missing also, not sure if it is less but they do miss.

Dave

One thing I would disagree with is that if you practice enough you will not miss. I have shot with a lot of top shooters,. My team partner was Ibo World Champ/ Missed a bull elk at 30 yards. Hope he doesn't read this. LOl. I have seen the best shots in the world miss on game. It just happens sometimes. However I have also known hunters that just do not miss. They will not take a shot that will be a miss. Even then a twig, an anmimal that jumps and you have a bad hit or a miss. No matter what kind of equipment you are using. I had a big bull whirl so fast at 10 yards that the arrow looked like the center lung I was shooting for and completely missed him. With a hot compound. It just happens and if you say it doesn't you are one of two things. Green or the luckiest person in the world.

Never said you wouldn't miss, but you'll miss a lot less and no more than with any other weapon at reasonable distances. Same goes to tuning and quieting your equipment.