Trad Gang

I'm just curious of how many folks enter there trophys in any of the record keeping programs?

I have never had a critter officialy scored or entered myself, and have mixed feelings as of why. I am more curious than anything what everyone's thoughts are on the subject!

If I was a Head hunter, trophy hunter, rack hunter what every way you want to say it. There is NO WAY IN HELL I would ever put them in those books. The reason is.... I can't seeing taking away inches because one tine is longer then the same one on the other side... What J/A made them rules...

If I write down a total of 220" and there is 7" difference from racks (left & right) why should I gig them. Why take away from a drop tine or a Beast with 13 points. Sorry I don't get it... That's why My 180" rack isn't in any of them Dumb Ass books.

What Mystic says!! Its a Joke

The only reason I'm a member of P&Y is for their conservation practices and museum.

Me and my hunting buddy see our deer.That is all that matters to me.

I would not enter the new world record in one myself.Just don't care about the way they turned hunting into a competetion like a bass tournament or something. jmo

I have only ever shot one nice animal (trophy wise) my entire life.  I haven't had it scored, but one day when I get time I will do it myself.  I don't care for it to be in any record book.  Just the memory of the hunt is good enough for me.

I score my own just to keep reference for myself. I don't believe in deductions. A rack is what it is. I have never entered any of my animals. I have considered entering a couple in the Compton Traditional archives though.

I don't enter either, have several that will make it though.

I don't enter the animals, but I do like the use of the score to help me visualize the size of the animal. It just helps me appreciate a nice animal without having to see it personally. If someone tells me they shot a 180" typical whitetail, I know they did something and took a really special animal. Likewise, if they tell me they shot a blackbear with a 20" head, I know what they are talking about. Other than that it just isn't important.

I agree 100% with useing "score" as a decription to tell the size someone is talking about! I guess my main reason for never entering anything is that it seems there's as much focus on the "person" as the amimal.

better question---What if someone offers you a cool million in cash for your horns all you have to do is enter it in a record book?

hmmn all ye naysayers still around?

I always hear this exact same comment --until someone shoots a book deer, then things change

if you dont like record books , I understand, but a wise ol man once said: never say never

you want to see your name in print then get a phone book.

I like the books and I love looking a mature animals, but I really hate all the negative that can and does come from that stuff too.

Not sure if I would enter it or not though.  I probably would the first one(ha!), but after that(ha,ha!) probably not.

I have no problem with anyone who has 100 or none in the books though.  It's their character that matters.

There's a lot of good people in that book, but, unfortunately there are some that will lie and cheat just to get THEIR name in it, really takes away from what the founding fathers intended. Pathetic.
The one in my avatar would have made, but, he ain't in there.

People will do some terrible things to kill trophy animals.

Scoring has turned hunting into a sport,which is a huge reason for the mass marketing of get your record book animal quick products being sold.I WELL NEVER PARTICAPATE IN ANY RECORDING BOOK.. but do use the system in crediting the animal.

QuoteOriginally posted by HornHunter:
better question---What if someone offers you a cool million in cash for your horns all you have to do is enter it in a record book?

hmmn all ye naysayers still around?

I always hear this exact same comment --until someone shoots a book deer, then things change

if you dont like record books , I understand, but a wise ol man once said: never say never

$1,000,000 and all I would have to do is enter...hhhhhhmmmmmmmmmmm Nope...NOT A SHOT That would be like someone making me do it.

I'm interested in how many inches, but not interested in entering them into the book...

The P&Y/B&C system has given us a great method by which to be able to put a size on a rack that the rest of us can understand.  Someone earlier said it better, but when I say I shot or saw a 140" 5x5, that gives many of us here a pretty good visual picture of that deer even though we didn't actually see it.  To me, that's a good thing--it's given us a common language.  And personally, the only number I really care to use is the gross score, as so many of you have already mentioned.

I've entered a couple animals in P&Y before '91, but none since.  Nothing against P&Y as they are a very good organization and do great work for bowhunting and conservation.  The record books were originally to help prove bows were capable weapons, etc.  Human nature led to the books spawning some unsavory types; it's not P&Y's fault.

I have thought hard about entering animals since P&Y came out with a traditional book, and entering them in Compton, or even in my own state's record books.  But in the end I keep coming back to two things:  1) the cost is a bit much especially if you have a few that would make it; and, 2) why am I entering them--is it really for the animal or for my own recognition?

Had someone ask me if I got my buck scored this year. Told him yep "8". Ya see I counted the points.

Horn Hunter,  I'll take your challenge bud.  Not everyone has elastic ethics when it comes to horn porn. 8^).

I don't believe Comptons book has any deductions? Is that correct?

There isn't one person in this thread...NOT A ONE...who would pass up the opportunity at a world record anything.  Deny it all you want I've been personally involved in enough of it to know otherwise.

The records program(s) is based on sportsmanship and the honor system.  Just like expected behavior in the field.  Everybody knows somebody personally who is less than honorable.  Warden609 probably knows more than one.

Bone has been and will always be the object of desire.  There isn't one person here who would pass up a 150 inch 8-point for a slickhead standing right next to that 8-pointer.

These programs are designed to generate interest, which generates money, participation, public awarness etc.  Yes it is about money.  Always has been, always will be.  Anti's have money, competitive special interest groups have money, we need money.  BTW...not that it really matters but the traditional market dosen't have enough money to sit at the table let alone play in the game.  Without these programs most of you wouldn't be bowhunting.

You ought to be thankfull Clubs like B/C ad P/Y exist and there are people that are actively involved at thier own expense.  I'll tell you here and now any one of the 100 regular members in the B/C club donates more money to the politics of "hunting" than most any one of you will make all year.

So...while your whining about inches, symetery, horn porn, poachers, et all.  Just remember...you don't get to do what it is you like to do because you have a "right"...you don't.  You get to do it because somebody else is paying our way through it.

Odd...I find most people that are opposed to "records programs" have that mentality till they kill one.  I hear quite often "I don't want to enter it, I just want to know how big it is"  Why, I ask do you want to know if it isn't that important to begin with?

So they can brag to thier buddies just like Thor and Grog did when they were painitng the hunt on thier cave walls 10K years ago.  That's right boys and girls the first record programs started 10k years ago Thor and Grog RECORDING the hunt on the walls.  And you can bet each knew exactly who killed what and how big it was.

I have many animals that would make pope and young .But i dont need my name in any book.I hunt for myself.To each his own.

QuoteOriginally posted by Bill Kissner:
I don't believe Comptons book has any deductions? Is that correct?

I believe that is correct.

Comptons does not take deductions and also takes into consideration things like equipment, longbow or recurve? arrow material, guided or non and ground or treestand..

There are a lot of good people who visit this sight, unfortunately  there are a bunch of scum bags too. (Some of them are bad enough to be listed as such) Them visiting this sight or entering their heads in the book does not or should not reflect on the organization.

How the organization deals with them should. I know P&Y or B&C will jerk a cheater and "All" of his entries in a heart beat,as well as bar them for life. I don't think we can ask any more of them.

Grancel Fritz was the J/A that wrote the system.
A system that not only recognizes size but symmetry, which in all forms of appreciation has value.

Rewriting the books would just give everyone a bigger number. The heads that would take a hit are the big clean typicals like Hanson, Jordan and Bream.. Now wouldn't that be a shame..

I'll agree with many that for conversation Gross is good, but I also believe for the books symmetry has to play into it.


Now, I'll say it again.. If size was all that mattered, we'd all be in love with Rosanne.

Wow, feel the love.  I say do what you want.  If you've hunted ethically its your animal.  I'm sure there won't be lots of agreement on who is the most ethical either.

Hey Scarne,

Guess what. Hunting is a right.  Particularly in my home state where it is written into the bill of rights.  

We don't need rich snobs claiming they are saving our hunting here. Send the anti's to Washington state and we send them packing right back out!  

Pontificating that the rich guys are saving our sport is like saying the rich men in Washington are saving freedom. Got some news for ya!  The men and women standing on the bloody line we all call freedom are saving it all around our world.  The men and women who participate in hunting and and vote are keeping hunting alive.  Remove the average hunters and see how long the rich guys get to keep hunting.  Wouldn't be long at all.

Man, sounds like alot of you would shun anyone who has ever put an animal in the books! Give me a break!

I know that many of us here have the highest of ethical standards when it comes to hunting... not all people do and it really sucks what some people will do just to get there name in the book. I just took my first animal this fall that will make Pope and Young, and your darn right I am going to enter the animal... I have been hunting hard ethically and legally for many years and have finally taken a mature animal with headgear to match, I am proud of my accomplishment!

For me it's not about recognition (my name will not be seen among the many other hundreds of names at the bottom of the list), it's not about horn porn, it's not about I am better than you are... I am just very proud of my accomplishment and am rewarding myself. I am proud of every animal that I take, and I take many more does than bucks and I look at each one of them as much a trophy as a book buck.

To each their own, but lets look at the individuals character and not about whether they record an animal or not.

I have and have not entered an animal into the book. I did it to honor the animal; not myself; in fact they spelled my name wrong.

I think that its kind of fun to have an animal in the book - because its kind of a milestone when you are really trying hard to get a trophy animal.

But I have not entered animals too. I am not always trying to kill a really huge buck or elk. In fact; the way the elk are taking a beating from the wolves; I would shoot a cow standing next to a big bull.

What I think we all are seeing is a phase; a big one; but a phase. Deer can only get so big a typical rack; and people are pen raising them to get them there: and not hunting as much as selective killing. That 'thrill' will wear off.

The more the 170 whitetails are shot; in pens or high fences; and hung on walls to impress people; the less it will mean. Shooting antlerless deer 'because its necessary for herd management' is a sign its happening.

Look how many of us here walk up to our trophies and exclaim "WOW ! - LOOK AT THE SIZE OF THOSE EARS!" ... happy; thrilled; and proud to have connected with our bows. Antlers or not.

I know I hunt for the shot. I might have a lot of shot opportunities at deer and not take them; but I like to see my arrow fly true.  It is still exciting to see a deer or elk or bear; and I hope that never stops. My son visited me recently; and after driving around a bit and listening to me say 'DEER!' more than a few times; he laughed and said I was like the dog in 'UP' who has a collar that translates for him. And the dog keeps saying 'squirrel!'.  
Well I guess I am guilty of that. But I still get excited to see a fawn or a doe or a cow elk or calf; or a couple cubs rolling around at my bait.

I think when you cheat yourself; the thing you lose is the reward. And to me; what people are doing is cheating.

So; I see it as a phase; as more people succeed at goals that can be bought with something else- other than effort; and the love of the wild.

I've been bowhunting since 1980 and have seen what groups like P&Y, B&C can do to help our sport.  When Glenn St Charles and others started P&Y, it was to help convince state game departments that the bow was an effective weapon that deserved a season of it's own...those were traditional bows!

I have been fortunate over the years to harvest more than my share of critters but for personal reason never entered any in the book.  This year I entered my first...black bear from Bear Quest.  This was more to show others the quality of Quebec bears which seem to get the reputation of being smaller and to pay homage to a group of traditional bowhunters that head north each spring.  I didn't do anything special to arrow that bear...just the right spot at the right time.  Anyone in our group has the same opportunity each year...Doc

Every single critter I ever shoot gets entered in  "the book".  I use one like this...

 (http://www.renaissance-art.com/Images/Products/hunter_med_categ.jpg)  

Sometimes I even enter the ones I don't get a shot at.  

Not sure what I'd do if I killed a world record, I guess I'll cross that bridge when I come to it.

Hmmm, I've entered a couple of animals.  Might do it again someday.  But never realized before that it made me an elitist slob.  And I'm still waiting for the first check to roll in. Oh well.

I do understand the issue of money and how that has been a horrible negative influence on some.  That is the side of it that I hate as much as anyone.  But for me, submitted a score to a record keeping organization really is about honoring the animal in my own mind.  Nobody is going to read through the book to find my name.  I really don't believe anybody cares about that.

Think of a name of someone here on Trad Gang or anywhere else that you really respect.  Without looking it up, you tell me whether or not they have an animal entered in a book somewhere.  I'm sure you would have no idea.  And if it turns out that they do or they don't, will it change your opinion of that person?  

If a person is a slob hunter but chooses not to enter animals in the book does that make him a better person?  I've been blessed to share camps with some really outstanding hunters and special people.  I have no idea whether many of them have ever taken an animal large enough to qualify and if they did whether or not it is in a book.  And you know what?  It doesn't matter to me in the least either way.  I will think of them the same regardless.

Enter if you want.  Don't if you don't.  But to judge a person and question their ethics and motivations based on whether they do or not doesn't seem to be very reasonable.

WHIP......The voice of Reason.

EXCELLENT Response  :clapper:

Just because you choose to not enter an animal in a book doesn't mean you don't support conservation organizations like P&Y or B&C!

I have entered one animal in the p&y books and i didn't do it to brag or show off to other people.  I did it as recognition for myself for the time and hard work i put in and the animal i harvested.  It was a sense of self pride and i think an honor to that animal. Every time i walk in the living room and see my bear hanging on the wall, i don't think how big it is , i think about the entire hunt, and how fun it was , and how i shared it with great friends.  I think the p&y organization is great and they do alot for the sport of hunting.   I hope entering an animal into the books doesn't reflect on my character in a negative way because it was done out of pride and honor, mainly for the animal.

I have a Woodland Caribou entered into Compton. If I killed an animal that would make "the book", aka Pope & Young or Boone & Crocket, I might enter it, if it wasn't too much of a hassle. Do I live for horns? Nope. Would I take poor shots or cheat for the opportunity at a record buck? Nope.

If somebody offered me a million $$ for all of my antlers? Probably. Does that mean I would go break laws to secure a huge rack worth big money? No I would not.

Good post Whip.

This thread is going south a little bit.  I think PY/BC is a good thing.  I know several hunters in the 'book' that are great hunters (not slobs)!  That is there thing, nothing wrong with that.  The animals I shoot on my DIY hunts dont get entered, If "when" I go on a guided hunt and kill a record book animal I will put it in there more for the outfitter then anything else.  I have to say Whip about said everything I was going to type though lol, way to go buddy.  Did you get the final score of the muley?

Nope...no interest.

I was lucky enough to shoot a big whitetail in OH several yrs. ago. Never thought about entering him until I saw the certifacate that you get from P&Y. Thought it would be nice to display next to the mount. I'm sure I still have it,........ somewhere?

QuoteOriginally posted by Whip:
I've been blessed to share camps with some really outstanding hunters and special people.  I have no idea whether many of them have ever taken an animal large enough to qualify and if they did whether or not it is in a book.  And you know what?  It doesn't matter to me in the least either way.  I will think of them the same regardless.

Enter if you want.  Don't if you don't.  But to judge a person and question their ethics and motivations based on whether they do or not doesn't seem to be very reasonable.

Whip you hit the nail on the head.

QuoteOriginally posted by Whip:


Enter if you want.  Don't if you don't.  But to judge a person and question their ethics and motivations based on whether they do or not doesn't seem to be very reasonable.

very true Joe

I haven't, but I'd consider it for $1,000,000. That'd buy a lot of arrows.

There is this huge factor that the Pope and Young club is way more than just a record recording entity.

They made a separate entry for animals taken with a traditional bow if I have that right; and they do not allow animals taken with a bow under certain conditions and with certain equipment.

And there is way more to them than those things.

So - lets not throw out the tremendous good for the little: that we do not see as a positive.

Nobody is forced to enter an animal in the book.

When I look at Gene and Barry I don't think of 'trophy hunters' out to claim fame. I see two great representatives of traditional bowhunting.

Maybe someday it will be the 'Gene and Barry Club'  and the big award will not be the 'Ishi' award; but a big bronze statue of Biggie: dragging a deer in his underwear.

Till then; I am happy with P&Y.

Oh I think that there are well more than just one or two of us who would not even enter the world record into the books, money or not.

It just isn't my thing.  Nope
I would certainly mount it, although I would probably have to do it myself.  Soon as any taxidermist gets it it will be all over the world.

Now. . .  if the animal's score goes in and my name does not, I might change my mind.
ChuckC

The Compton book without any doubt. I do have an animal in the Compton book.  I liked the whole concept...

I had never considered putting any in P&Y.

I really have no use for record books,I don't even get my deer heads mounted anymore. (I have 1 mounted,and my father also has 1 mounted) I just cut the horns off and hang them on the wall. I couldn't tell you a 150" buck from a 50" but I have constantly heard guys talking about how many "inches" this our that buck was. I honestly haven't any idea how big a 150" buck's horns really are.

I did have a Buck registered in the "Biggest Bucks of Maine" book. I shot a Buck over 200# and the state automaticly entered my name and sent me a patch for my hunting coat.

Well woodchucker if you like big horned deer and your buddy invites you to come hunt his spot and he's been seeing a 150" deer, you best go along  :)

I don't agree wth alot of the rules of scoring with P&Y but I do think it kinda neat that the animal you enter has to be the first deer you shoot that season. I like to look at the pictures of the big ones though.

I'd like to shoot one big enuff but I don't see myself entering one afterall my buds would already know.If perhaps I outscored the "Lucky" buck LOL I'd consider it but for the most part I only use scores as a way of telling size for comparison

Chucker a 150"er will give ya goose bumps for yrs to come thats a big one here not a monster(unless only 8pts) but a really big one

Thanks Tom!!!!! I have seen "up close and personal" the Buck that Kenny(adkmountainken)shot and it was a N.Y. State record for quite a few years!!!!! I honestly haven't a clue how many "inches" it was though.

One of the problems with "record book" bucks is the money that these racks bring from "collectors"..... Kenny was offered THOUSANDS of dollars for his deer head!!!!! It bothered him so much,that he was going to give it to a blacksmith friend of his to cut up for knifehandles.

How many of you...honestly...would enter your deer in a book if you weren't recognized as the one who harvested that deer?  If it's all about honoring the deer, well then why not?

It's NOT all about honoring an animal.  There are TWO necessary components and only when those two come TOGETHER....those are 1). a big animal AND 2). an archery hunt.

You can't have a "P&Y" without BOTH components!

Without a hunter (BOWhunter) then it would just be a random big animal listed so listing just an animal makes no intelligent sense.

Well Thanks Steve, at least you answered the question 8^).  Our opinions differ, of course, but that's pretty natural.  You see, it would make plenty of sense to me to delete the human, who only contributed by killing the animal.

I've seen too many high-profile "hunters(?)" who later were found to be skanky, dishonest, poachers who rode the antler game to elevate themselves to the masses of hero worshipers waiting to hear their stories.  It's still happening quite regularly as recently discussed on another forum.

The Pope and Young Club is a good one and does a lot of good through education, etc.  The book itself has become a format for egos who sit three feet behind the deer and push the antlers closer to the camera to make them look even bigger. It's a step to become famous in someones mind, whether or not it's deserved.  And, the book itself, has outlived it's intended purpose: to show bowhunting as a viable sport that is both effective and appropriate in the hunting genre.

If anyone decries the books purpose, the supporters will quickly jump on them as "envious" or "jealous", or some other sort of poo-poo'er who is probably just an incompetent hunter who can't kill nice bucks.  Schoolyard, bullying tactics used when one can't come up with an "intelligent" argument.

But your answer was what I was expecting.  The hunt for big antlers is led by egos, and it will continue to bring about the incessent search for the biggest rack at whatever cost, and it's not to honor a species that has long since been ostensibly honored into oblivion.

Kudos George!!!!!!!!!!  :thumbsup:

I TOTALY agree with you that the book has long out lived it's purpose.....

Years ago,and MANY decades before "Quality Deer Management" Record Book Bucks were very few and far between..... You REALLY had to be LUCKY to actually harvest a record book animal. They were,for all intents and purpose basicly "Freaks of Nature"!!! They were the big smart old animals who had managed to find the best food,and the most out of the way or over looked cover to call thier home,managing to essentaily live thier entire lives "under the radar" only to have someone just LUCKY enough to be in "just the right place,at just the right time"!!!!! Today,anyone with enough money can travel to a ranch where record class trophy bucks are the norm,rather than the exception. I'm not talking "canned hunts" either,I'm talking many thousand acre,million dollar game farms where the herd is geneticaly controled to develope record class animals. Many times by releasing pen raised trophy class animals into the herd to breed during the rut. Why do you not see any of the big name celebrities hunting public land??? They are always on "this" ranch or "that" ranch..... I would take ANY one of them,and put them up in my home for the entire season,and I would be suprized if they could bag even a "good" buck,let alone a record,hunting where I do. Have you ever seen them hunt NY's Adirondack Mtns. or the "Big Woods" of Northern Maine??? You probly never will either!!!!! It just takes to much LUCK to find a record class Whitetail,let alone bag one.

Sadly,more and more, MONEY and EGO dominate the record books!!!!! Not Hard Hunting LUCKY Hunters.....  :(  

I'll get off my soapbox now.....

the P&Y club is anti-crossbow and since the radical advances in compound technology in recent years and my personal belief that there aint much difference now ...... and P&Y bending on the 65% rule etc ....... I'll never enter an animal in the "book" unless its world class or something and is advantageous for me to do so

I wish the P&Y club had stayed "bowhunting"

It may not even be ego.  Men seem to be drawn to large antlers just as women seem to be drawn to chocolate and diamonds.  If there were no book men would still try to shoot the deer with the biggest rack or catch the biggest bass.  It's just our nature.

Yes reddogge, This is VERY true.....

Years ago,there was always the guy in camp or town who shot the biggest bucks year after year..... (seldom were any of them "records" though) Many times rumors would fly about poaching etc. However,the folks that knew him would always admit,that he just hunted the hardest,and he was LUCKY!!! If you put the time and effort in,you can consistantly kill big bucks. However,most(if any)will not be "record" class because record class bucks are few and far between. Years ago,bagging a record class buck was a "fluke". Some big old buck remained well hidden for years untill someone kicked him out of his bedroom,and the chase was on!!! The "lucky" hunter who tagged him was an instant local celebrity. Now days money can take you anywhere that "record" class bucks abound. Just looking through the record books see how few bucks where entered during the 50's 60's and 70's as appossed to the 90's and 2000's.

Sadly MONEY and RECORD just seem to go hand and hand now days.....  :(

I agree with Woodchucker.  I like the idea of a book to recognize the deer and the hunter who harvested it. I would love to harvest a "record book" deer, but it's not my focus.  However, with the prevalence of QDM and genetically supersized deer it seems to have become more of a transaction than a hunt.

I don't know about you guys, but the last place I want to hunt is a ranch where they can tell you "you can shoot this one, but not that one...he's reserved for another client."

I have looked at the record books before, and I like to scan the names to see if I know anyone, and where the deer was taken.  There needs to be a way to eliminate or note those that were taken from high fenced operations that utilize breeding programs.  

I agree with George...greed and egos have certainly spoiled things a bit.

I thought a record book entry had to be fair chase, meaning it can't come from a fenced in ranch.  Am I wrong in this or was it that way and has since changed?  Enter the animal or don't I don't care either way, that's each persoons own choice, but if you can enter an animal from a "canned hunt" as some like to call it then that may change my oppinion.

You can have "fair chase" on a 10,000 acre ranch.

I see now.  That's one of those things that's all in the wording.

Pretty much, The animal has to have the ability to escape. i.e. you can't run them into a fence corner,and kill them. Large ranches even though they are "high fenced" are considered to have plenty of cover to allow the animal room to "hide and escape". In reality lots of these ranches are 5 and even 10 times a whitetail's "home range".

10,000 acres is only what...15 square miles?  That would be a pretty large operation if it was "high fence".  I don't think Pope and Young allows any entries from "high fence" operations unless i'm misinterpreting their rules (it is explained in the rules of fair chase).  If it is a free ranging 10,000 acres, i don't see the problem.  
Me personally, i would like to see a publication that would allow you to just enter the animal.  i belong to Pope and Young as well as Compton's and a couple of other organizations because i believe they do more to help us continue having the right to hunt rather than to hinder that right. (Man that was a long sentence).   :)

Yeah as a way to let people in the future know I was here.

Wow! Some of these posts are almost--ALMOST--reminiscent of the old LW! Whatever the argument is about, it shouldn't be about the P&Y Club, which played an important historical role in the development of bowhunting as we know it. Nor should it be about the individuals who make up P&Y (or Compton's), the vast majority of whom are dedicated, honorable bowhunters. That said, I made the personal decision years ago not to enter animals in any book. And that's just what it is: a personal decision, based on the overall conclusion that whatever good record books due for hunting is outweighed by the bad. That doesn't mean I have anything bad to say about anyone who chooses otherwise. Don

Don: Does that mean I can't peruse the P&Y record book and locate your name and an entry...  ; ^ )

Everyone, stop and think for a minute what would happen if P&Y said what some of you on here want, "gee, the record book has outlived its usefulness".  You know what would happen, what do you think you would get?  Some new recording organization would appear (crap like SCI) and it would be far worse!  Careful what you wish for!

QuoteOriginally posted by Steve H.:


Everyone, stop and think for a minute what would happen if P&Y said what some of you on here want, "gee, the record book has outlived its usefulness".  You know what would happen, what do you think you would get?  Some new recording organization would appear (crap like SCI) and it would be far worse!  Careful what you wish for!

Yeah look what hope and change got us.   :smileystooges:

The main problem that is being discussed is not a problem with the P&Y "club" it is a problem with the "book" and the problems the book creates. The "fame&fortune" seekers and the "collectors" paying outlandish prices for the racks entered in it. It has changed completely everything that the Pope & Young (and Boone & Crockett) record books were ever about.

The quest for attaining "record book" heads has led to poaching,lieing,cheating,stealing..... (I haven't heard of anyone being murdered over a record book head,I it wouldn't suprize me)

To have a very close friend of mine who I love like a brother(actualy I DO call him my Brother) who was LUCKY enough to kill a buck at 16 years old that qualified as a N.Y. State record(and stayed there for quite a few years) to constantly be hounded by "collectors" to sell his deer head..... To the point where he was going to GIVE it away,to be cut up for knife handle material..... JUST TURNS MY STOMACH!!!!!     :mad:    

As Mr.Thomas has said,it's a personal decision to have your animals entered or not. But, I'll never have to worry about that problem..... I refuse to even have them SCORED!!!!!

Until this year I had never killed an animal that would score high enough to make P & Y.  My buck from this year will score high enough and i will enter him in the book.  It seems to me woodchucker that you look down on anyone that does not have the same so called ethics that you do.  I hunted the big woods of maine this year for a moose.  I hunted hard for 6 days and never even saw a whitetail while I was there, this is why I would never go to this area to hunt deer.  I am proud of every deer that I kill with every weapon that I use, I hunt in all three seasons, gun, bow and muzzeloader and would never look down on a person for any reason as long as what he was doing was legal in that state.  It is your right not to have any deer of yours scored but do not look down on anyone who wants to have their deer scored.

Steve, Congratulations on your P&Y Buck!!!!! That is a tremendous accomplishment,and I applaud your success!!!!!  :notworthy:  

Actually, I do not "look down" on people who enter their trophys in the book. The ones that I look down uppon are the people who will pay anything,do anything,legal or illegal to get a buck in the book. Also the collectors who pay anything,no matter what the cost,to attain these racks for their "collection". These are the people who create the "low moral standard" that creates the problems with "record book" trophys.

CONGRATULATIONS AGAIN!!!!!  :notworthy:

I don't have any issues with people who put their animals in the books. That is a personal choice and the right of every hunter to choose to do or not do as they wish.

I take umbrage when someone claims a few rich guys do more than the millions of hunters who pay their licenses, vote, volunteer, etc......

Would I put a record book animal in the books?  I would say no.  I just don't have an interest in the books.  I have a brother who would do it in a heartbeat and is on a quest to shoot a book Mule Deer.  I love him the same as I did before his quest, and have even helped him with research, scouting, and camp work and chores on his quest so he could hunt without distractions.

I have issue with the hunters and collectors who are so focused on their names and animals being recognized that they forget what hunting is all about.  The cheaters and liars get taken care of by the clubs when they get caught so I would have to say the book clubs are policing their own.

Wow, I can honestly say I would have never guessed this thread would have gone on like this. I have one in the books and with the good lord willing hopefully add to that someday! By putting animals into the book you are contributing to probly the best organization you can, an organization that promotes the sport we love. The sad reality is that most people just think of p&y as a book and have no idea of what they really do! I hope all you guys who would never put an animal in still support p&y!

I only have shot one whitetail worth going into a record book, maybe...  I hunt for myself and personally would not put it into a record book.  I take the antlers and make them into knife handles or rattling antlers.  The Pope and Young is a tremendous organization in the same lines as Compton and PBS.

Here are a few projects that were supported by P&Y this year (source P&Y website):

Pope and Young Club Conservation Program grants, totaling over $111,000.00, were awarded to the following projects and programs in areas of education, pro-wildlife management, pro-bowhunting, research and partnerships:

National Archery in the Schools Program
Chronic Wasting Disease Alliance
The American Wildlife Conservation Partners
United States Sportsmen's Alliance (Bowhunting Rights Coalition)
Congressional Sportsmen's Foundation
Association of Fish and Wildlife Agencies
Ballot Issues Coalition
Arizona Fish and Game Department / Purdue University - deer DNA research project
Wyoming Game and Fish Department - Absaroka elk research project
Judy Kovar's Hunting Heritage Programs
Becoming an Outdoors Woman Program
Farmers and Hunters Feeding the Hungry
National Shooting Sports Foundation (public schools conservation videos)
Orion the Hunter's Institute
The Archery Hall of Fame
Hunting for Tomorrow Foundation
Alaska Fish and Game Department - wood bison restoration project
Jack Creek Preserve Foundation - youth conservation and bowhunting education
Be Bear Aware and Wildlife Stewardship Campaign
Hunting and Shooting Sports Heritage Trust - public documentary
North American Bowhunting Coalition
Youth Conservation Education Portal
National Conservation Leadership Institute
Unallocated - defense of bowhunting and defense of bowhunting-only seasons

With these grants, the Pope and Young Club has given more than a half million dollars over just the last six years to conservation projects around North America.

###

QuoteOriginally posted by luv2bowhunt:
[QB] Man, sounds like alot of you would shun anyone who has ever put an animal in the books! Give me a break!

Now I'm not saying I don't like reading about game in any of the books. I know both B&C and P&Y have done lots of great things for hunting, but it's NOT FOR ME. Hell I love seeing a nice rack in a book, On TV or even in person.

I just don't believe in the scoring and to Me that's not part of hunting. If You have or going to enter any of the Trophy books I am Very Happy for You

QuoteOriginally posted by woodchucker:

I did have a Buck registered in the "Biggest Bucks of Maine" book. I shot a Buck over 200# and the state automaticly entered my name and sent me a patch for my hunting coat.

That would mean alot more in my circle than a P&Y/B&C entry.Most of us northeasters care 90% about weight of yer buck and 10% about points.Especially a Big woods of Maine brusier.Someday I'll have that patch too,someday...

Absolutely nothing against anybody entering an animal.Go right ahead if that's your game,more power to ya.  :thumbsup:

My to cents, I think what ever the critter has in a gross score is the final score.And no hunters name in the books,just the animal,state & county.By leaving out names the killing of a trophy at any cost may slow down, respecting the animal is more important, I think.

QuoteOriginally posted by antler chaser:
My to cents, I think what ever the critter has in a gross score is the final score.And no hunters name in the books,just the animal,state & county.By leaving out names the killing of a trophy at any cost may slow down, respecting the animal is more important, I think.

Totally agree, great post!!!!   :thumbsup:

So I have been reading all these posts, biting my tongue and trying to be patient.


So Dennis, what is your feelings,and how has this topic persuaded you or not, to enter?

It seems that the Whitetail deer is more the subject here! Just look what this animal has done for the good and bad, and the creation of many things in the last 30 years.

More later.

Happy Thanksgiving to the Family!


Good shootin, Steve.

I don't have any book deer so to speak. Don't know what I would do if I did. Maybe if I took it with a bow.

 The two biggest deer I have taken where with a gun and granted I still look at them on the wall and think Wow he was nice and relish the hunt but I would of much rather taken them with a bow.

A friend of mine who is not a bowhunter and is really just a deer hunter during gun season.  Anyway he was at the house the other day and I said "here you go this is my best trophy buck" he says "you got another one on the wall somewhere I didn't see" I pulled out a little 3 pointer that was my first trad kill and said " I took this buck at six yards with a stick and string" He looked at me kinda dumbfounded and said "I've never had a deer any closer than 25 yards" I said " yeah it's pretty awsome when you gotta stick'em so they won't step on you"

Those are my books and I do keep records right in my melon where I like them, to be cherished and one day I'll tell them to my grandkids if I ever have any. I will still nice deer with a gun during the appropiate season but I love to take any game animal with my good old archery equpment any day.

Yeah, Steve H., you can find a couple if you look hard enough. But none for the last 25 years or so... There's nothing like the freedom to change your mind about an issue... Don

I can't speak for anyone but myself, but I can say, in response to an earlier posting, that I do not in any way despise or look down upon anyone who choses to enter an animal in the book.. at least, not for just that.  

There are a few who are obviously using it as a pi$$ing contest to show who is the best at obtaining dead critters.  

Most, however are not at all like that. They are rightly and justifiably proud of their accomplishment.  But just as they have plenty of right to feel as they do and enter it into the record,  so do I have the right to quietly feel good about anything I may have done and leave it at that.

Not all of us think and feel the same about all topics, and as Don has just shown, we very often change our thoughts as we grow and witness more of life's milestones.  That's just the way it is.
ChuckC

I never did it, but I thought about suggesting to Compton's, when they were organizing our record book system, that no reference can be made to the Compton record book in any ad.

Thats the gist of all of this....if nobody could make reference to B&C, P&Y, or any other record keeping organization, we wouldn't have the greedy CRIMINALS cheating just to whore out thier "accomplishment".

Steve,
     My mind was made up along time ago that I would not enter any of mine. The whole book thing just doesn't feel right to me. I have no disrespect at all for any who do whoever as mentioned many times earlier it's a personal decision with no right or wrong answer. I am a supporter of P&Y. B&C, Comptons and any organization that supports hunting in general. No one can argue the good they have done for sportsmen.

Don't get me wrong.  If I shot one that would make it I'd enter it.  I did shoot a 9 point that was 3/8" over green and shrunk to 1/8" once.

I'm not sure I understand the why not? Dennis you took a fine animal as did your father!

Second, you took it with a real bow! A great accomplishment. Most hunters will never get this opportunity, even with a gun.

As far as the "bad apples" that people have mentioned, don't let them spoil your Pie!

Shoot, that book doesn't advertise anything. If I wanted to show off something, we are staring into a box that lets us have a chance at anything!

They don't give you a spot for free, but I respect your decision.

Good shootin, Steve

Well I was planning on adding a couple this year but the does keep showing up first. Enjoy the hunt guys in your own way as long as it is legal and ethical.

To each their own.  As for myself, I have never seen the point.

well Cootling - with deer at least; you need to be able to more than see the point....    :bigsmyl:

I was once the prez of P&Y and currently have the same job in Compton Traditional Bowhunters, so, as you can imagine I believe in those organizations. We created the Compton system of measuring an accomplishment to reflect the traditional bowhunters mentality, which is HOW you did it, not just the animal. Take a moment and look at how Compton does it. We record everything that was involved in that hunt..the bow, the bow weight, the arrow and its material, the broadhead, hunting on ground..from a tree, etc, guided/unguided, etc. About the only thing you don't know about that hunt is what the bowhunter ate for breakfast that morning. AND, the score is a combination of the animal...which has no deductions for symmetry...and the equipment used and the way it was hunted. It's an archive of traditional accomplishment, recognizing both the animal and the method. Some will always reject any approach to their idea of trophy hunting, and that's okay, but I love to see good animals taken by a traditionalist and know totally how he did it. My opinion...gfa

So far, this is a relatively free country, and entering animals in 'the book' is a personal choice. I have an entry in P&Y, and I plan on entering a couple of critters in Compton's. I don't expect that those animals will make me a star, and I did it because i was proud of taking the animals with a stick and string. It doesn't make me a good or a bad person; just somebody who hunts hard and in a couple of occasions has taken large representatives of game.
I am grateful for organizations like P&Y and Compton's, and how they represent our passion for bowhunting. For the record, if I took something of 'book' quality with a rifle, I wouldn't give a hoot about entering it, but that is just my personal feeling. In fact, I don't hunt with a gun because to me, there is just no challenge in it. That doesn't mean that I think gun hunters are bad or unethical; it's just not my bag.
There are cheaters in every vocation and avocation. That doesn't mean that we need to throw the baby out with the bathwater. I am betting that most 'book' entries are there because a hunter hunted hard and ethically and is proud of his/her accomplishment. Nobody is putting a gun to anybody's head to make them enter an animal, so if it isn't your thing, don't do it, but there is no need to bash those who do.
And Fred, I had cereal for breakfast!   :D

My goal has always been to kill an animal with traditional equiptment that would be big enough to make Pope and Young. I have shot a dozen that just fall short but someday.....I guess I use the Pope and Young minimum as a benchmark. I absolutely would enter a buck if I shot one that was eligible. Talk about "Tradition" I think that there is alot of tradition associated with the Pope and Young books and club. That being said, I have shot many fine bucks that only had 4 or 6 or even 2 antler points. To me they are trophies that I will cherrish but there will be something about achieving my goal when I shoot my first "Booker" with a trad bow. Wouldn't mean much to me if I shot one with a gun or compound bow.

Sometimes an animal that won't quite make the P&Y minimum will make the Compton minimum because there are no deductions and because of the extra point you can get based on equipment and method. You might want to take a look at that.

The Compton minimum is the same as P&Y's...125. But the Compton score is a combination of animal score and method. Go to the Compton website and go to Archives and download a whitetail score sheet and it will tell the story. gfa

these arguments always crack me up

if your not interested in horn(s) size--why did you shoot a buck?

I mean really--why shoot a buck, there not as good eating, as a young doe?

but everyone of you nay sayers has a hero picture posted---it's primal--- man has been trying to kill the biggest and badest since day one-- you dont think caveman jumped around a camp fire when they tipped over a mastodon?
they could have much easier shot a wolley burgur half there size.
man has been comparing sizes --since women showed up(just part of our downfall) and we will continue to do so until the final sundown

there will always be cheaters, I dont care if your drag racing, or hunting big bucks someone thinks they can cheat, and get away with it.

so dont blame the "books" for ding dongs in our sport, better yet, make an example out of the cheaters, in stead of putting them up on a platform and buying everything they touch.

get rid of them, and the real true hunters will always shine.

A wise ol man once said: "you will know when you have done it right"

Hornhunter... your wise old man said it well.  You'll know.    

Some like to jump up and down and let the world know too,  others don't really care about that and chose to celebrate differently.  Is either wrong ?
ChuckC

well said!!!!

OK,,I'm going to take a shot at this but most likely I won't say it right ; ).

   Dennis, your curiousity about this subject has kindled a flame that will burn forever. As long as men/women have a right to their own opinion,, we will all never agree 100%. I thank the men,women and (in my opinion, the man above) who have given so that we may have that choice.

   Like many on here, I started bowhunting at a very early age. I can remember a time when I dreamed of taking an animal that would actually quailify for the P&Y "book". At the ripe old age of 18, I did just that, I was lucky enough to take a black bear that would make the "book". I also remember after some years claiming that I would never do so again! I had become involved in the taxidermy and archery business. Anyone in this type of business can tell you, you will meet some of the worst, and some of the best people around. The problem is at times you will not be able to tell them apart, especially if there is a "big" buck involved! I have seen the best of friends become enemies because of the "book" status given to the animal.

   Today, when all that seems to matter is the "size" of  anything, (examples: automobiles, houses, viagra, breast implants etc...) it seems that today's generation of hunters lack the knowledge of their origin. Organizations like P&Y began record keeping to prove the hunting efficiency of the bow & arrow as a viable tool in big game conservation and management. Today the "name" of the organization is USED by many who wish to promote themselves or their business.  

   At this point in life, I do believe it is necessary to have a history/archive type of "book" that list the traditional types of equipment that are used to take big game today. So now I've changed my mind again and I will enter an animal that qualifies but only to prove that my chosen type of equipment is a viable hunting weapon and a part of archery history.

I've always looked at record books about like I look at obituaries.  If you didn't know the person personally, the name is kind of meaningless, but the particulars of their life and accomplishments are usually interesting.

 Compton's is more interesting than P&Y, in that regard, but I really wouldn't mind if the names were absent.

 I quit P&Y when the voting membership relaxed the equipment rules.  Figured the manufacturers had enough influence to get their way, and it would be a downhill slide.

 On the other hand, when you guys post pics of your animals on here, I'm more interested in the picture of the hunter than the animal.  Go figure.

I've never had an animal scored. But I don't really look down on those who have either. Guess I'm just kind of neutral on this one.

Here's my Pope and Young library. No point deductions here....no cheaten just good eaten  :)

(http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c210/coaster500/2009ElkMeatintheFreezer.jpg)

The biggest buck I've taken didn't eat any good at all. Don't get me wrong if I get a crack at a monster I'll take it but I am just as pumped up when some good eats steps out  :)