Trad Gang
Main Boards => PowWow => Topic started by: Altiman94 on November 15, 2009, 07:40:00 PM
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I'm shooting 471 grain arrows out of my 47# bob lee hunter, is this enough weight or should I shoot more?
Arrows are 1916 easton legacy aluminums.
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If you are shootin whitetails with razor sharp broadheads you'll be fine.
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BH is a 100 grain magnus stinger and I am shooting whitetails, yes
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10 grains per pound has been the standard rule of thumb for a LOOOOOONG time. Why would you question it???
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yes.. that is a good gpp. you will be fine...
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I too say yes,I like to keep my arrows in the 9-11 gpp range.
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Just make sure it goes between the ribs.
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Since you asked...
Yes it is enough to make a deer dead if you make a real good shot...and yes you should use more.
Is there a reason why you would NOT go heavier?
You would be much better off going heavier if you hit something other than soft tissue.
What would do the most damage?...a plastic golf ball at 300 fps. or a bowling ball at 10 fps.?
That's the jist.
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It will cut whitetail ribs going in and coming back out, and be in the ground on the other side.
Some of these guys have never hunted with that bow weight or arrow weight so they repeat what they have heard from other guys who haven't.
A 47# bow and a 470 grain arrow is plenty. I shoot through most deer I take with a 45 to 50 pound bow and 9 to 10 grains per pound, and most are pass through shots. Whitetail ribs are the size of a carpenter's pencil and easy to cut through. You are fine, just put that arrow in the boiler room.
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what George said !
ben
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George,
"Yes it is enough to make a deer dead if you make a real good shot" (my quote)
Isn't that what you said?
Yes I have used lighter arrows in the past...and yes I have lost deer when said light arrow hit bone accidentally.
So what I did was put my arrogant attitude aside and decided I need a heavier arrow so maybe I would be better prepared should I make another incidental bone shot. And then maybe I wouldn't loose another deer due to using "good enough when the shot is perfect and the deer doesn't move, but not good enough to make good common sense" arrows.
Now George..answer me two questions if you don't mind.
1. What would do the most damage?...a plastic golf ball at 300 fps. or a bowling ball at 10 fps.?
2. What is a reason for one NOT to use an arrow heavier than 10 gpp?
Just curious.
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Yes, there is...accuracy. Going too heavy, at least for me, makes it much harder to hit things at unmarked distances.
BTW about the golf and bowling balls, a golf ball going 300 fps can do some damage. I've been hit by one I know wasn't going that fast and it was not an enjoyable experience ;)
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I kind of see the opposite.. I am more accurate with the heavier arrow. BUT...If I wanted to shoot a lighter arrow I could darn sure get accurate with it. Accuracy can certainly be attained either way.
Also you were probably referring to the PLASTIC golf ball when you said "golf ball". I was talking about a plastic one. A real golf ball would definitely do some damage. Which is my point exactly.
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There is a happy medium with weight of your arrows and poundage. 10 grains a pound in the norm and for smaller animals is fine. I do shoot a heavy arrow out of my Robertson Purist. I am going bear hunting in Pa. and the arrows I am using are over 600 G"s and I am only pulling a little over 50 pounds. Some of the Pa bears are large, over 400 pounds, some over 500 pounds so you need some penetration.
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Now George..answer me two questions if you don't mind.
1. What would do the most damage?...a plastic golf ball at 300 fps. or a bowling ball at 10 fps.?
Even a 12 lb bowling ball weighs aprox 450 TIMES as much as the plastic golf ball. Therefore, for your comparison to be accurate, the golf ball with need to be going 4500 fps - in which case I will pick the bowling ball to hit me. Also both are blunt objects - not razor sharp broadheads.
If you want to stand by the golfball/ bowling ball anology, then he needs to go from a 471 gr arrow to a 211,950 gr one. Anyone know of a bow that will handle a 4500 gpp arrow - other then straight down from a treestand :)
Steve
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That is no suprise.
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Richie - what is no surprize?
Steve
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That the extreme metaphor used to make a point is calculated specifically but increased momentum of an arrow, by using more weight, is so rarely calculated and perceived to be the best option.
What is funny to me is to see how bow shooters say things that defend the light arrow setup for hunting. Everything is said in there defense..except...
"Yes I realize and understand that research shows, as well as common sense, that a heavier arrow is the best option when making a 'notso perfect shot'. But I still would rather shoot a lighter arrow just because I really like the way it flys and I am not worried about the 'notso perfect shot'."
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I am new to this trad archery and heavy arrows. Previous to this I was used to shooting 5-6 grains per pound out of a compound, i appreciate the help.
Although the metaphor does make sense, it is too extreme to be an accurate comparison. The best way to test it, is to measure kinetic energy out of a given set up with several different weight arrows.
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10 grains per pound is plenty for whitetail. Matter of fact that is purty heavy.
Richie do you shoot a heavier arrow than 710 grains?
From all of the studies I have read an arrow heavier than 12 grains per lb. starts to produce diminishing returns.
I shoot 10 to 12 grains per pound depending on what I get when I tune. I think proper arrow flight makes more difference than a few grains per pound. Your mileage may very.
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Or a 420 t0 500 gr arrow out of my setup allows me to make more accurate shots at unknown distances in the woods then one substantial heavier as some say is needed. Therefore much less chance of "a not so perfect shot."
I shoot these wghts from my 53# bow. Ribs don't even make the arrow think. And have on 3 different occasions blown thru a scapula and broke the offside leg with 2 of them. I'll choose the most accurate setup for me with a REASONABLE wght (as suggested by Fred Bear) rather then one maybe marginally better, but with reduced accuracy - for me.
Steve
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if the quarry hunted (i.e. - deer) is in the bush and not the plains, i'd prefer a good 12gpp arrow with a lotta foc.
if prairie hunting (i.e. - antelope) i'd prefer a flatter shooting arrow of around 9 to 10 gpp.
but yes, a 470 grain 10gpp arra sounds good to me, for deer.
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The age of very heavy arrows is upon us. But many deer and larger game were taken with arrows in the 8 gpp for years without anybody thinking they were too light.
I've been hunting deer with a 46# Orion recurve and arrows that are right at 500 gr. They don't even slow down in a deer.
Don't worry about the a 10 gpp arrow, worry about how sharp your broadhead is and how well it flys. And then about how well you shoot.
The rest will happen easily.
Mike
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(http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i310/jelloats/IMG_2018.jpg)
(http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i310/jelloats/IMG_2034.jpg)
(http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i310/jelloats/IMG_2014.jpg)
This is part of the spinal column of the doe I shot last year that jumped the string. My broadhead entered at the position you see in the first pic. The second pic is the exit. As you can see, the broadhead totally severed the vertebrae at an angle. The suprising thing to me was that the arrow continued to penetrate downward (from a treestand) and was poking against the skin on the opposite side.
This was a 52# bow with 418 grain arrows. Whatever you choose to use, make sure to get your arrows perfectly tuned and match appropriate razor sharp broadheads to them.
Craig
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wingnut said it real good.
the key is to first learn your tackle and be accurate at your hunting distances.
imo, don't go too light with arrow weight! heavy arrows are your best hunting buddy.
then pick a spot.
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When discussing the not-so-perfect hit, why is the assumption always that it will involve impacting heavy entrance side bone? When we look at a whitetail’s anatomy (assuming we’re not taking stupid shots to begin with), we see that the percentage of vital organs obstructed by heavy bone is extremely small and in some cases nearly nonexistent.
If I were going to change my arrow setup out of fear (real or imagined) of the not-so-perfect hit, I’d probably go with a broadhead so big you’d think it could quarter a deer on the hoof. But since my 2-blade heads work just fine, I don’t see any reason to change.
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back on track, apropos the topic - 10gpp is fine, know yer gear and only take shots at yer 'accuracy distance', real sharp broadheads, good arrow flight, pick a spot.
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I use 46# and 491 gr arrow. It's blown thru the last two whitetail I've shot-- including bone.
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Got to agree with George. From George " You are fine, just put that arrow in the boiler room."
From Richie Nell "George,
"Yes it is enough to make a deer dead if you make a real good shot" (my quote)Isn't that what you said?"
No. It's not.
Yes I have used lighter arrows in the past...and yes I have lost deer when said light arrow hit bone accidentally." You can't judge something from one instance. It would be difficult to shoot a deer in the kill are without going thru ribs.
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if I wanted to go heavier woulnt that make my spine weak?
I shoot 55# 3555 29" with 125 head and 100gr insert
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Originally posted by gobbler10ga:
if I wanted to go heavier woulnt that make my spine weak?
I shoot 55# 3555 29" with 125 head and 100gr insert
mebbe, mebbe not - 55# holding weight, 29.25" beman ics 500 arrow with nearly 450 grains up front, excellent arrow flight.
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My recent experience echo's everything that Craig mentioned about a "light" arrow - the arrow that took my buck weighted in at 8.6gpp with 15% FOC using a single bevel broadhead. The inital shot split the vertibre in two and arrow still continued 6" into the chest cavity. The follow up shot was a complete pass through with no problems at all.
I'm not concerned at all with the lack of a "heavy" arrow given the terminal performance of a single bevel head with high FOC and a skinny shaft for less drag. The trade off for a flatter trajectory with increased speed is well worth the one less pound of KE that I could have provided the arrow didn't loose it's way to the target due to a deviation in flight.
Flatter trajectory = less hold over = better understanding of the "traffic" the arrow will be passing through at extended yards.
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Originally posted by wihill:
My recent experience echo's everything that Craig mentioned about a "light" arrow - the arrow that took my buck weighted in at 8.6gpp with 15% FOC using a single bevel broadhead. The inital shot split the vertibre in two and arrow still continued 6" into the chest cavity. The follow up shot was a complete pass through with no problems at all.
I'm not concerned at all with the lack of a "heavy" arrow given the terminal performance of a single bevel head with high FOC and a skinny shaft for less drag. The trade off for a flatter trajectory with increased speed is well worth the one less pound of KE that I could have provided the arrow didn't loose it's way to the target due to a deviation in flight.
Flatter trajectory = less hold over = better understanding of the "traffic" the arrow will be passing through at extended yards.
whilst there is some merit to your words, the other side of the coin also holds much water. given the same bow, arrow and archer, the heavier shaft, with greater foc, will not only penetrate better, but will also deflect less during travel in the bush.
in terms of arrow trajectory, lots depends on your quarry and hunting venue. do your own testing. for me, there's no major difference in my 'sight window' and bow hand hold with a 55# holding weight longbow and distances up to 23 yards, and a 665 grain arrow as compared to a 525 grain arrow. but 25 yards and out requires rethinking of the 'gray matter bow sight'. this wouldn't be a problem for woods hunting (for me), but would be of concern for plains/prairie game where 25 to 35 yard shots might be what's needed.
15% foc isn't much, these dayze. 20% or better is considered high foc. like heavy arrows, i also believe that high foc is yer best huntin' buddy.
a tale of the effectiveness of the longbow's heavy clothyard shaft arrow ...
"And now, friend, I will myself show you a vantage of the longbow. I pray you to speed a bolt against yonder shield with all your force.
It is an inch of elm with bull's hide over it.", quoth bowman Aylward.
"I scarce shot as many shafts at Brignais," growled the man of Brabant; "though I found a better mark there than a cantle of bull's hide. But what is this, Englishman? The shield hangs not one hundred paces from me, and a blind man could strike it."
He screwed up his string to the furthest pitch, and shot his quarrel at the dangling shield. Aylward, who had drawn an arrow from his quiver, carefully greased the head of it, and sped it at the same mark.
"Run, Wilkins," quoth he, "and fetch me the shield."
Long were the faces of the Englishmen and broad the laugh of the crossbowmen as the heavy mantlet was carried towards them, for there in the centre was the thick Brabant bolt driven deeply into the wood, while there was neither sign nor trace of the cloth-yard shaft.
"By the three kings!" cried the Brabanter, "this time at least there is no gainsaying which is the better weapon, or which the truer hand that held it. You have missed the shield, Englishman."
"Tarry a bit! tarry a bit, mon gar.!" quoth Aylward, and turning round the shield he showed a round clear hole in the wood at the back of it. "My shaft has passed through it, camarade, and I trow the one which goes through is more to be feared than that which bides on the way."
there's just too much good data to support heavy, weight forward projectiles. as long as going that route doesn't impede my hunting functionality, i'll take those advantages with a smile and a thank ya! :D
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I agree with you Rob, when I was trying different arrow and weight combinations out for my bows, under 25yrds there really wasn't a huge difference in the sight picture from arrows that weighted between 8.5 to 11.0gpp. Once you cross that magical 25yrd line though, the heavy shafts just ran out of steam (comparitively speaking if you look at the trajectory - however - if you look at the amount of energy generated at the point of impact, "ran out of steam" is the exact OPPOSITE of what was happening to the target!). I really started to see arrow drop and massive hold overs on shots beyond 33yrds.
Why would I shoot well past 33yrds? I shoot the 3D courses from the wheel stakes.
Ulimately I've trained my eyes to see a trajectory of an arrow that weighs around 8.6gpp with an approximate 185ish FPS. More weight than that, and where I believe the arrow will hit is different (lower) than where I'm used to expecting it at distance. So now I build my arrows around that general weight/speed regardless which bow I'm using, makes it easier to just grab a bow and arrows and not have to "re-train the brain" over a couple shots to see where the new weight will fall.
I HAVE been playing with getting that FOC number up, though, but the lighter the carbon shaft the more brittle it's becoming. As much as I want more FOC, I'm all for a stout reliable shaft. Finding the middle of the road is proving to be the difficult part.
I do like that quote.
:D
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in a near perfect world, shoot one bow and one arrow (weight). i'm giving it some goodly time and testing to see if 12gpp will work with consistent accuracy for me out to 35 yards. if not, i'll either use a tad over 12gpp for most hunting and barely 10gpp when the distances are over 25 yards. either way, i'm a happy longbow hunter/archer. :cool:
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last year i was shooting a 41#long bow goldtip 3555 pro hunters 30-1/4 long 170 grain stos broadhead and had a complete pass through at 18 yards from the ground in my blind shooting through the net.i was right a 10 gpp.what matters most is a perfectly tuned arrow and a sharp broadhead for that bow. bottom line...im not knocking people who shoot higher poundage bows heck i shoot from 40-56# ,myself i just feel my back tension alot better with the lighter weight,and also i can holdthe draw just in case i get busted and have a deer look at me.
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that was a cool post Rob ...thanks ...
ben
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Very interesting post....
I am shooting two Black Widows, one of them is 54@29 and the other one is 61@29.
I use to spend a lot of time setting up my arrows, and once I achieve a good arrow fly and enough penetration, I never use to change the set up, basically because I am an instinctive shooter, like most of you.....
I have been bowhunting during the last 18 years, mostly hogs, and there is no doubt, a bad shooting placement is not going to be a good shoot whatever arrow set up you have. Once said this, I have found that my bows shoot better using 10 grains per pound than 9 or 11. Using 9 grains per pound they are faster but noiser, and using 11 they are silent but too slower after 20 yards.
Hog skin is thicker than deer skin, I can ensure you that your actuall set up is more than enough to take a deer, remember that you are not a 3d shooter.... don´t let them convince you about your hunting set up...
Good hunt.
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For years and years we have been using 9-10 gpp with hunting weight bows and it works well. To me, a 300gr arrow is a light arrow and a 470gr is not, you should do just fine given good arrow flight and placement with a sharp broadhead.
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I have hunted with 9.5-10 gr per pound arrows for most of my 45 or so years,trad hunting and am not one of those that consider 10 gr per inch inadequate.
This year I have been experimenting with increased weight and FOC.The current arrows are 14 grs per pound and 26% FOC.In man made materials,they have doubled penetration over my past setups and I'm convinced,turned a bad hit into a good one on an antelope back in September.
I was in a box blind with a 12" shooting window.The antelope buck hung up just outside the window.He broke into a trot,I took a fast snap shot which I maybe shouldn't have but I just reacted so fast,and really didn't think.
The shot hit the heavy part of the humerus,almost at the elbow joint,completely severed the bone,cut through the top of the heart and exited behind the opposite shoulder.Antelope cover a lot of ground very fast,especially when heart shot.This one went down in 40 yds,the fastest I have seen one go down.He probably was on his feet for 2 seconds.
The placement wasn't bad but the elbow position was.It appeared that the arrow traveled straight after breaching the bone.I'm not sure my former setups would have done as well.
Even in my teen years it became evident that shots in the field,at game,under pressure were way different than on the range.
These days,especially since I've had to drop a few pounds in draw weight,I'm trying to see if I can make things more effecient.Tradgang and the experience of others has helped a ton,giving me direction in all this.
In those early days,we knew nothing of tuning arrows to bows,like we do today.In the grand scheme of things,in modern,traditional archery,fine tuning arrows to bows,like we do today, is a new thing.It is a very positive change for our sport but still,a relatively new one.
It would be easy to say,"we killed deer in the '60's without it.If it ain't broke,don't fix it".I actually know people that think that way,but I believe way more people see the value in this "new" way of looking at things.
Heavy arrows may not be a new thing but our knowledge of how weight and FOC affect things is expanding.Some of it may be knew thinking but that doesn't necessarily make it bad.
I look at it all as more options.As talked about earlier,one can fine tune a setup for better trajectory at longer ranges or make a setup leaning toward more penetration.A lot of it may just have to do with what feels right to the individual.Whatever the setup is,like a bow grip,if it really fits you,you will probably perform best with it.
I should say,in playing with these heavier weights,I have had the same experience as others.Out to 20 yds,I don't have to consciously think about hold.At 25 and 30,I do.I haven't been a gap shooter but recently played around with it and found that my "point on" is 30 yds and at 25,the point 4" under.
So now,I shoot the same as always but use the point at 25 and 30,to verify my hold.
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i do fine with 386 grain arrows....why does everyone think deer are suddenly on steriods with kevlar covered ribs. you dont need a 5# arrow. i draw 25" and use a clicker, so the weight is always the same ( 45#) and i use a 100 gr. head, not some heavy ass brick on the end the arrow. and i get pass thrus from 15 to 30yrds...no problem. its simple...use a sharp broadhead and a well tuned arrow. dont worry about extrme foc and 14gpp. a wel tuned bow does the job fine.
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Originally posted by bmb:
i do fine with 386 grain arrows....why does everyone think deer are suddenly on steriods with kevlar covered ribs. you dont need a 5# arrow. i draw 25" and use a clicker, so the weight is always the same ( 45#) and i use a 100 gr. head, not some heavy ass brick on the end the arrow. and i get pass thrus from 15 to 30yrds...no problem. its simple...use a sharp broadhead and a well tuned arrow. dont worry about extrme foc and 14gpp. a wel tuned bow does the job fine.
i don't see where 'everyone' is dissing lighter arrows (and bows).
the point is, heavier arrows and foc are proven allies for hunting.
if you can deal with the adjustments required for added arrow weight and foc, great ... if not, enjoy what you have as long as it's working for you.
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I like to extend my effective range out to as far as I can effectively shoot, which is around 30 yards at the moment. I personally shoot the best (with my 30" draw) with around 9.5 gr/lb, which comes out to between 520-640 grains depending on which bow I'm shooting. I try to get a high FOC with that weight, then leave it alone and focus on hitting what I'm shooting at ;) I guess the difference between my setup and some others is that the really heavy, high FOC setups are designed to deal with the worst of situations, while I design mine to help me best avoid those situations. The flatter trajectory is much more forgiving of distance judgement errors.
Craig