I am curious about spike bucks. Are they simply young bucks that should be let go to grow for a couple of years or are they spikes instead of say a small six point because of poor genetics and need to be removed from the herd?
In Mississippi, spikes are common because much of the state has a very late rut. Being born in July or August, the young bucks just don't have time to get very big the first year, which apparently reduces the size of their first rack the next year. Genetics also play a role- I've seen 1 1/2 year old bucks with nubs, spikes, fork horns and a 10 point all from the same small area, in a club where all the deer are aged and rack sizes recorded under a management program.
In the deer pens at MS State, they raised a buck that was a spike the first year and grew to B & C proportions when mature. The local biologists quit recommending the shooting of spikes after seeing that.
I think most folks agree that the "cow-horned" spike, one with big curved spikes, is probably a genetic condition and should be taken out.
Buckeye...how long are the "spikes" on the deer that you are labeling a spike?
trying to wrap my head around this...but need some criteria.
though a spike may always be a spike you will never know if ya shoot em.
i am a firm believer of shoot whatever ya want and a spike is in trouble in front of me.
anyhoot there have been lots of studies and they have all said sometimes a spike will remain a spike but 9 out of 10 times they will grow larger...how large is a coin toss they may only grow to be a scrappy 6 but its still more then a spike.
there are so many factors that come into antler growth such as stress, food, genetics, weather, compeition, habitat, etc etc. play with just one of those factors and a deer will never hit its true potential
I never really gave much thought to what size of spike I just thought spikes in general, as in why are they a spike instead of a fork horn or a six point, etc.
Pretty sure it's been proven that you just never really know the potential of any given deer unless he's given the chance to mature.
I really don't think the length or curvature has anything to do with it.
Just what I've learned from reading a lot about this stuff...
Spikes are babies.
Rarely, rarely, rarely is genetics an issue in a whitetail deer herd.
99.9% of bucks with spike antlers are 12-18 month old deer.
Don, I am very confident those nubs, spikes, forkhorns and 10 points are all different ages. Different as in 30-90 days apart. The does will be bred there from November to April thus the wide range of birthdays.
There are occasions where very old bucks will have spike or very few branches in their antlers. But that doesn't mean at all that they are genetically inferior. The nutrition they eat is used up keeping the deer alive instead of used for secondary functions such as antlers.
When you have an older age buck structure in the herd and a good annual doe harvest the rut will be a 30 day buckarama.
Then fawns are born early, yearling bucks are actually 18 months old with 8 points, 2.5 yr. olds look like they're 4 yrs. old and the 4.5 yr. olds get alot of more visible with alot more bone on their head.
Most of the time a spike is an immature deer BUT I have one on the wall that was aged 2.5yrs.
He may have gotten bigger, but I'll never know now,LOL! I have been passing on lots of forks and spikes this year in hopes that maybe a handfull will make it to next year. Kinda hard on state land but it's gotta start somewhere....
I shot one last year that had 13" spikes, another mercy kill. This buck was obviously 1.5 years old and had it not been for his injury would have been a wopper at 2.5 yrs. There are two family lines of deer where I hunt that both have very distinct racks. The one I shot last year comes from the line that tends towards wider with fewer pionts, at 2.5 yrs most of them only have 5-7 pionts but if they do get to 3.5 they have very impressive racks. The other line has narrower taller racks with many more pionts and tend to have more pionts at earlier ages. I think any buck from either line would be an awesome buck at 5.5 or 6.5 yrs old. It is too bad they never make it to that age. Nutrition plays a major role in the size of the rack while genetics play a role in the shape and structure.
If a buck is 2.5 years old or older and is still a spike or forkhorn or is lacking any serious growth, it might be considered for a cull. In most areas you can tell the age just by looking at the diameter of the antlers and bodyweight. Toothware can be very misleading.
What I am trying to say is that 1.5 years as a spike is not a good time to start culling.
Just my opinion from lots of reading and observing.
The Guru is correct in his post...I just shot a "spike" monday, but the deer weighed over 200lbs, had the largest hooves of any deer I've ever taken, and his teeth showed a substantial age difference in what he first appeared. I believe this deer was 3-4 years old, but only had 5 1/2" spikes. He was a very health deer and the jerky tastes amazing!
Unless I was starving spikes will always get pass by me... Give them time.
Young spikes get a pass on our land but if i saw one that weighed 200lbs i would for sure take him out of our herd.
A spike buck has inferior genes. If the deer has good genes and good nutrition he could be a fork horn or larger in his first year. Check out the book the deer of north america its by Leonard lee rue on of the countrys foremost authorities on whitetail deer.He is a great author and photographer. If you go to almost any ranch they will let you shoot spikes and 3 points free of charge because they want them out of the gene pool.
Deer, like people, have different genetic programming. Just because a young buck is a spike at 1 1/2 years doesn't mean that he's genetically inferior to the same-aged buck that sports more points. They may just mature and grow at different rates, and may become equivalent at maturity. I have a cousin who was so small as a kid that everyone thought he would always be that way. In high school he was about 5'4, too small for the Air Force. At 20 he was 5'10, and had become a jet fighter pilot.
If you shoot them, you'll never know (the deer, I mean). But if I see a healthy button buck that weighs 150# like the one my wife shot, I'll take him out! She thought he was a big doe. His jawbone said he was 1 1/2. There's obviously something there that just ain't right. I won't take the chance that he might pass those genes along. I guess I'd be more liberal with my cousin.
I saw a article in a magazine where a spike buck was given lots of nutrition and several years to grow and that deer turned into a 200 class whitetail.
jerseyboy,
Nothing too terribly personal here but...you and Leonard Lee Rue are over 100% wrong on this topic. Remember he is a photographer and business man.
I wasn't going to mention this but I am a wildlife biologist and have managed whitetail deer for a few years now. I have plenty of harvest data personally to prove my point, not to mention countless other studies.
Deer genetics is an extremely minor issue when growing good antlered bucks.
How many deer have you seen with real abnormalities? If there was any kind of problem with inferior genes running through a deer herd there would be real abnormalities with the skeletal system, reproductive system, etc.
100% of the 120+ hunting properties that I have managed saw the exact same result. That result was..
when they stopped harvesting yearling bucks (spikes, cowhorns, small 4's, etc.) they began seeing more and more 2.5 year old bucks, then began harvesting more and more 3.5 year old bucks. The reason they didn't see many decent antlered bucks before was because they weren't there. The bucks were being harvested as soon as they got 1 point on there head which was their first year. After three years of passing yearling bucks the buck age structure was where it needed to be to consistently grow and harvest good antlered deer.
Typically in a given summer, deer are born in a span of several months. The first three months are critical. The early born fawns will have more time to get primo nutrion before winter. Those are your 6-8 point bucks the next year. The later born fawns will have less nutrition available before winter thus producing smaller antlers their first year.
However they tend to equal out in their 2nd and 3rd year.
Does are bred anywhere from November to April. This is dependant on how well the herd has been managed.
As mentioned on another forum, if young bucks are consistently passed up and there is a significant annual doe harvest the breeding will be done in 30 days. It will be a wham bam thank ya mam Buckarama.
That will allow for fawns to be born early and have good antlers 1.5 years later.
I think that most spikes are late fawns from the previous year. It is tough to know the potental of a deer at a young age. Thats why it's best to judge a deer's age not by antler size but by it's body . Knowing your local herd can play a big role in that. Utah went away from antler restictions because of a study of a deer that never had antlers larger than a 2x2 in 7 years. That deers antlers spread never was wider than about 14",and thats a mule deer. I did one year kill a spike that that had 18" spikes with 3" bases. When the antlers were cut off most people thought that it was a spike elk rack. I belive that the age of that deer was 3.5 years old. A friend had a picture of two bucks(in field and steam mag.) with over 30" spreads one was a 4x4 the other was a spike. The spike was an old saddle back for sure.
Spikes are young bucks...1 1/2 years old around here.Let them walk and grow bigger.
I tried to close with a spike for 3 or 4 yrs. He was pretty old when I saw him. Had a sure enough growed up body. had one anlter that was maybe 18 or more inches long. the other antler was a lump of stuff haning down over his eye. I almost closed the deal from a iggloo like blind we made 10 yds into a winter what field. I got a good look at him up close but no shot. I bet he was 7 yo 8 yrs old. that was the last time I saws him. I kept track with the other ranches around us to see if he was taken. I could not find out what happend to him. so for three ar four yrs his odd antler growth stayed the same.
The game warden said that not only will and injury to anlter cause odd growth but the injury to a leg can cause and odd anlter growth?????
rusty
This is all good food for thought. I guess i never paid that much attention to it nor have all the info i need to make a more educated comment so i will go with richies verdict. Im not a trophy hunter by anymeans and living in NJ if you see a buck you shoot it for the most part.Im not saying that this is the best thing to do and after seeing some of the better bucks in my area i guess i should be more prone to let the smaller ones grow knowing what they could be one day. Here in NJ we have an abundance of great food for the deer so it would be easy for them to grow into trophy class animals. In fact i just came in from my stand and couldent help thinking while i was out there that its no wonder with all the food sources around that i dont have more deer come by my stand. There so damn hard to predict where they will be going for food its a virtual all you can eat buffet where i live in central NJ. Wouldent it be nice to only have one food plot so you know that they would be coming into it
Don that's exactly what I discoverd with my buck. When he approached I thought he was a huge doe, but to my surprise he was a spike. He weighed 198 field dressed!
Richie - Thanks for giving a scientific explanation...too often folk's opinions on these topics are based upon wives tales and folklore. Heck, I had a hunter last week tell me his buck was 5 yrs old because it had 10 points and "we all know they put on 2 points every year." Wow...I wonder if that guy thinks the world is flat, too.
I've been surprised at some of the differences I've noted in 1 1/2 yr old bucks throughout the Midwest and the only thing I can attribute it to is the management philosophy (more particularly gun season type/timing) and the effect on the rut. For instance, in Ohio when I was growing up one VERY rarely saw an 18 month old buck that was not at least a 3X4, and most were typical 8 pts. Rare exceptions were generally large 3X3's with an occasional 5X5 with very small G-4's. Moving to Indiana, with a much more harsh gun season (2 full weeks, prime rut, more liberal harvest limits) we have many more forks and spikes around than I'm used to from back home (11 yr observation in IN). The area Dad's farm is in in SE Iowa WAS generally more like Ohio, but has been suffering lately - say last 6-8 yrs - as far as 18 month old bucks go - corresponding with increasing gun "opportunity" including early blackpowder season etc. This train of thought was really brought home to me this year while hunting northeast Missouri where I saw 18 1.5 yr old spike/fork bucks (maybe a couple repeats, but I'm convinced most were distinct bucks) in 7 days. They have a 2 week high power rifle season during the rut. Genetics can't be THAT different across these areas, and all these deer have plenty to eat, similar winters, etc, as the 2 1/2 yr old and older deer from all these places are similar in size. All I can attribute it to is that heavier gun pressure during the rut must spread the breeding over longer periods resulting in many more "short yearlings" or 12-16 month old "1 1/2 yr olds" vs less gun pressure during the rut leading to more true yearlings, and thus better antler growth on a bigger deer the first year.
I guess to answer the original question, after all that ranting would be IMO unless the spike is 2.5 yrs old or older killing him because he is a spike and "will always be" is a mistake. A 3.5 yr old or older spike has to be a VERY rare thing in most areas and I would guess would be a genetic oddity.
Ryan
i killed a spike this year / he was mature deer / looked like cow horns , full mass just never beamed out.
feel i did right thing management wise taking him ( would rather have a young doe). anyway he helps fill the freezer, back on hunt tomorrow!
Science has pretty much shown (other than the rare oddity)they are just late born bucks & given time to age, will catch up to thier potential.
I was just leafing thru my copy of "Buckskin and Bone" that I got in the mail today. Gene has a phot of a black spike 1 1/2 year old. He and Barry have been watching that buck for 3 years and he is a trophy now.
That would be "Tyrone"
Zack, that WOULD have been a huge doe! Heck, that's bigger than any buck I've seen around here! Our average mature bucks top out at 160 - 175# on the hoof. My biggest buck, a mature 10 Pt. with a 5" drop tine and several stickers, was no more than 200# live weight.
Richie, I think you're right. The button, spike, forkhorn and 10 pt. that I referenced were all aged at 1 1/2, but our rut has been shown by aging fetuses from spring doe harvests to range from November to March! It peaks around December 15.
Mississippi has changed the regs this year, and in most of the State you can't shoot a buck unless he has a minimum 10" inside spread, or a main beam at least 13" long. I'm excited about the effect this will have on the age structure. It is expected that practically no 1 1/2 year old bucks will meet the minimum, thereby protecting the whole age class with our late rut.