Trad Gang
Main Boards => PowWow => Topic started by: twigflicker on November 10, 2009, 09:40:00 PM
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Shot my first Trad buck this morning...
Here's the senario...
He was broadside at 8 yards, I was about 18' up... Shot with an Acadian Woods Treestick 56" and 52#'s or so at my draw... Easton Carbon with Snuffer on the end... arrow weight was 425 grains... I only got one hole... no exit hole... the broadhead and 6 inches or so of arrow were found in the lungs when field dressed...
He took off like a racehorse across a field and I was able to watch him for 125 yards or so and he went into a woods that was cut about 12-15 years ago and is thick as all get out... No blood till the last 40 yards or so... When he started he was blowing it everywhere... I'd heard him go down and thrash and I found him with a grid search as to the lack of blood...
Any thoughts as to the lack of pentetration?
I know I didn't short draw... I shoot with a clicker and distinctly remember it going off...
Jonathan
Oh yeah here's a pic...
(http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r233/twigflicker/09%20Buck/DSCN0240.jpg)
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Nice buck. Did the arrow hit the shoulder on entry?
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Nope... I was about 2"'s back of the shoulder crease and halfway up the body...
Jonathan
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nice buck worth the trouble sorry I have no help i'm new to trad!
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Deer may have twisted some at the shot pinching the shaft. Without being there that's my guess.
Nice buck glad you found him.
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Nice deer. Good job listening for the crash and finding him on a grid search!
Theory; you are only shooting 8 grns/# and a Snuffer takes a lot to push through. Not enough momentum and deer are thick top to bottom. Even though you think you heard the clicker, it is tough to draw as far when you shoot down at a steep angle.
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I agree with KentuckyTJ. The deer's movement at impact along with a light arrow.
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i was thinking a little light for the snuffer...who knows though.
go shoot another and see what happens.
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When shooting a lighter arrow it is tough to get 2 holes with a 3 blade , you need to go with a 2 Blade to get a hole in the bottom with sharp angles from a tree IMO . Deer are thicker meat and bones up near the top where you have to hit them for a good angle through the goodie box.
Jack
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I think Shaun nailed it right on the head. Nice buck congradts. I just went through a similar situation today but unfortunatly after 5 hours tracking today and 4 hours last night I lost the trail in a swamp. It was a similar shot, steep angle only I did hit the shoulder.
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whats your DL?
Thats a great first buck! Congrats
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8 yards away and 18 feet up = 10 yds. Pretty close. Nice buck.
I had a buck run 120 yards with a double lung pass thru that didn't bleed hardly a drop- it was all inside or had been "misted" into the air as he ran across a field.
Joshua
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I'll leave the theory to those who have more knowledge than me, but nice buck, glad you found him.
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It's the Snuffer, IMO ------------.
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That's a big wide head, and the shot angle was pretty sharp....lots of meat to go through and brisket at the bottom. Get down about five feet, you don't need to be that danged high.
That's why I like hunting from the ground, nearly every chest hit is a pass through.
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If you read much on here, you already know the answer, but may not want to admit it.
Nice buck, and good job on the recovery!
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Thanks for the thoughts guys...
To be honest I hadn't realized the arrow was that light until I weighed it last night... It was what shot right with that weight head out of that bow... 125 grains with the long adapter...
I was higher than I like to get, but I was on the edge of an inside corner with no back cover (open field) so I went higher... and as I look back he did look up twice at me as he was coming down the road but I had cover from that direction... so the theories that he "tweaked" at the shot are quite probable...
I do have a short draw about 27" kevgsp...
I do read alot here Marty... and assume the arrow was too light for the snuffer... not sure of your thought direction... you're not going to hurt my feelings... I'm just trying to learn more and be more effective hunter...
I've had several bad experiences with two blades both myself and with friends... several of them did not end well...
Thanks guys... It was a great feeling to finally see him laying on the ground... like a big "whew!"
Jonathan
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I didn't see one of the obvious theories, so here it is:
Tuning.
If your setup isn't tuned well enough you rob yourself of lots of penetration. It's the reason why a friend with his 70# wheelie bow rarely gets two holes and the 14 year old girl shooting a 35# bow got two holes on 4 of her first 5 deer (and all in her first season!)
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Yep that big ol snuffer does a lot of damage but takes more horses to push it through. Your bow weight is fine but your arrow is too light. IMHO
Up that to 12 gpp from 8 and you will blow through them.
Mike
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Who cares about penetration NICE deer!! :clapper:
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Jonathan, nice buck for sure! I hear ya on the "whew" once he was found! (grin)
Things to consider are definitely arrow wt for head being used, more importantly is head wt & sharpness of broadhead this is where the ultimate penetration is stemming from!
I shoot a longbow at 55# 27" draw like you do, tuning is important but not an end all so don't pull your hair out if you get a slight flip on release out of your arrow, you need reasonably good flight. I get a flip every time I shoot but it corrects itself after a few yards or so within reason.
In your case putting a big Snuffer through a deer in the angle you mentioned would be very tough to do unless you hit a clear path all the way through, that head is big & can be restricted much easier than a smaller head.
If I were shooting that big head I would opt for more arrow wt closer to the 580-600grn mark, more importantly I would want 200grns min up front & razor sharp, this is where more penetration can be had. Don't be too concerned with pass-throughs, if you get one great, but it's not needed in most cases with a razored head carving things up while still in the animal.
Now if I chose a smaller head such as the SnufferSS in 3-blade or a 2-blade with bleeders I then would opt for an arrow wt of no less than 500grns but still have the 200grn wt up front. This is what I've been shooting the last couple of years. (thanks OL)
Keep one thing in mind when building an arrow. What are you hunting & what are you using for a head? Build your arrow accordingly, too, you will receive no penetration difference until you have aprox a 75-100grn difference in jump if you just add the wt throughout the arrow, but add that wt to the head area & now you've accomplished something! This is where the tuning comes in to get the right spine arrow for the desired head wt.
As an example I've shot the SnufferSS in 125 grn with a 75grn grn brass insert for 200grn head wt with an mfx beman yet my total arrow wt is 500grns I've taken 2 animals with this setup, one a 6-point bull elk at 18yds & the 2nd a mule deer buck in the 250-270# range at 32yds both were pass throughs. I took a 2nd 6-point bull with the same arrow wt of aprox 500grn with the same SnufferSS head on a 2018 aluminum. That arrow buried to the feathers as it stuck hard into the off shoulder, he was quartering to me.
My point is I'm getting plenty of penetration with this setup. If I were to use a big ole Snuffer head I would have to up that arrow wt a 100grns to push that big head in. 50grns more would not be enough, as your results would be minimal in the testing I've done! Good Luck!
ElkNut1
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personally i like heavy arrow weight with 2 blades(snuffer 3 blades yes?)
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Yep...a little more arrow weight would help. Hieght of stand not a problem...angle not a problem....done that plenty of times and blown through them with 4 blade Zwickey Deltas....but with 500 grain plus arrows.
Congrats BTW!!!!!!! :clapper:
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I'm also wondering if your deer wasn't qtring away slightly....or if it spun on the shot. Hitting that off-side shoulder from the interior would kill penetration.....but would also be extremely lethal (on that path).
I'm shooting a heavier arrow than you (by 75gr.). I've had 3 complete pass-thrus. I don't know that much about traditional archery.....but my personal opinion is that your arrow weight (while not 'optimal') is sufficient.
Good luck to you as your season progresses.
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Jonathan,
You might try a 29" Beman MFX Classic 500 with 100 grain brass insert. Should weigh 525 grains with a 125 grain tip and shoot well from your set up.
Works well for me in similar set ups.
Nice Deer. Glad you found him!
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Congratulations! This 100 grn snuffer was shot out of a 55# Kota recurve, arrow was a Carbon Express heritage with a 100 grn brass insert, so I think the weight was slightly over 500 grns. I failed in putting the arrow where it needed to be. I hit bone at close range. Penetration was about a 1/2 to 3/4".
I wish I had seen an earlier post where someone had recommended the smaller snuffers be used for small game only. Perhaps my results would have been the same with any broadhead, but I would like my broadheads to hold up better than this.
(http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd43/MnFn/09misc.jpg)
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Shot this bear with a 125gr Snuffer w/75gr steel insert. Easton ACC 390 arrow total weight was 525gr out of a 54# big river longbow, I was 20' up a tree @ 15 yards. I had to pull the arrow out of a tree root (http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss115/earljeff/mainebearhunt2009014.jpg). Bear went 30 yards. (http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss115/earljeff/mainebearhunt2009018.jpg)
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MnFn,
100 grain Snuffers are toys compared to the 140s and 160s.
Also, don't mean this as a slam...but that head would have probably held up if you had put it where it belonged.....work on your shooting abilities and you'll have less problems overall.
There's so much chat on here about this head and that head....this head vs that head....when there really should be much more chat on accuracy...and folks worried more about their shooting than what head.....and what ever head they choose they should be worried about how sharp it is.
Its aint the head, the arrow, or the bow.....its the indian. :thumbsup:
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Originally posted by Terry Green:
MnFn,
100 grain Snuffers are toys compared to the 140s and 160s.
Its aint the head, the arrow, or the bow.....its the indian. :thumbsup:
Boy, that statement is so true, so true. Well said Terry.
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Congratulations on a fine deer and recovery. Lots of good help here and even I learned a thing or two! :thumbsup:
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I shoot a two blade stinger.total arrow weight is 495gr I never get a pass through.the shots are good.I always get my deer BUT you better keep your eye on them an watch where they go.you may not see blood for 30-40 yds.my bow is slow.It maybe shoots 160-165fps but who cares.I get the job done.Iam sure I will get a pass through on some shots.but bone will slow it down .even a rib can slow it down.however I hear guys gettin pass throughs with 35-40 lb bows. I do get good penitration' just not clean pass throughs.I have hunted lower to the ground this year.Iam shocked just how low you can get away with.you just gotta move a little slower. an try to be ready sooner. keep your eyes pealed. get lower
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A number of years ago I read something about it taking more kinetic energy for an arrow to penetrate well into a deer from an elevated position as it does from being shot on the same plane with the deer. I have never seen or read anything else about it so I have no idea if it is correct or not. I have no knowledge of how kinetic energy is affected by differing elevations, if at all, so I can't attest to the validity of what I read. I can't remember where it was that I read it, but it seems as though it was in an archery magizine several years ago.
Then again, at my age maybe I just imagined I read it.
Louis
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light poundage. Try shooting a zwicky 125 2 blade. How is arrow flight with the snuffer?
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Think about it this way, strait....
How thick is a deer (think shooting at ground level)? Now....how DEEP is a deer (when shot from above)?
Which path is eaiser?
Makes a diff. (I'm aware) what your arrow encounters on its' path. But the concept doesn't seem foreign.
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Beautiful buck. I am no help on the penetration issue, as I am new to Trad hunting. Congrats!
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Nice buck btw:
But Terry, I don't totally agree with your comment regarding accuracy and broadheads. Clearly accuracy is important, but there are many reasons for a poor short location that goes beyond the initial accuracy at the release.
Reasons include adrenaline, deflection, or the animal moves either jumping the sting or just decides to move at the wrong time. On the later two, just watch the outhouse channel some and you will notice that many times the deer moves some before impact. You cannot do much about that.
So in hunting situations, the debate regarding the value of what one broadhead may do over others when the location is not perfect is important too.
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Some questions as to tuning...
I've tuned as best as I can (bareshaft, fletched and broadheads)... the arrows fly great and I've never had any issues getting the snuffer to fly out of anything...
Some great thoughts... I know it's mostly speculation but was curious to hear of others experiences...
Thanks!
Jonathan
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lt-m-grow,
Exactly!....and I prepare for the highest percentage of the worse case scenario....which is most hits are too far back. That's why I like big heads as hits too far back are easy to blow through, and I want to cut the widest channel I can, and most times with multiblades. This give s me the best chance on again, the highest percentage of the worst case scenario, to lacerate the liver/diaphragm/one or two lungs vs just nicking them. And, you need to be able to hit the vitals consistently if they don't move or your pissing in the wind no matter what head you choose and rolling the dice.
You need to control to the best of your abilities what you CAN control...an prepare for what you can't control.
It all starts with accuracy. Don't sell that short!!! :thumbsup:
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I have to go with Terry on this. On the ones I have had problems with it has always been location. I have never had a broadhead fail me, but I have failed by putting it in the wrong spot at times. I like to stay moderate in arrow weight which to me is 10 grn/lb and never have a problem.
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Just an idea. You are at about 8 gpp, try getting your arrow up to at least 10 gpp 520 grains or even 11 gpp 575 grains and see what happens. Your broad head is a good choise and i think with some weight behing it it wont stop.
I know deer are not any thing like hogs but with a 575 to 600 grain arrow (im right at 58#)i can get through both sides of a good sized hog 9 times out of 10.
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You just used the wrong broadhead for your arrow weight.Switch to a WW type head and carry on or use a heavier arrow for the snuffer.Lighter arrows need smaller broadheads than heavy ones. jmo
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snuffer mid 425 gr and 52lbs.. bump up the arrow weight some and go with a smaller head. your set up would be ok on a perfect shot situation, but ya need to prepare for a not so perfect ie: deer reacting to shot hitting a scaupla etc.. good job on findin him nice buck !!