The first 2008 Update is now posted. It, and the next few Updates to follow, should be of interest to those hunting with lighter draw weight bows.
Ed
TGMM Family of the Bow
Cool...cant wait to read it...heading there now!
Very interesting reading.... looking forward to part 2!
Doc., thank you so much for all the work you have done. You seem to have shown that EFOC decreases arrow deflection on impact minimizing resistance while improving penetration. Have you considered comparing a cut past center bow that would have similar performance to your present equipment but with a much stiffer arrow that would also decrease deflection on impact? In addition, will we be getting details on your IF?
Michael, the IF information is in the 'Perfect Arrow" thread that O.L started a while back. I've brought it to the top for you.
Ed
TGMM Family of the Bow
Mr Ashby glad to see you back on line. I hope all is well with your back and you are feeling better. I just got my issue of TBM and cant wait to read your report, thanks for all your input.
Thanks Rick, the back is better, but I'm dealing with a new set of problems. They picked up a Grade 7 prostate cancer on a physical I had in May. I've been getting daily radiation treatments for the last several weeks, and will be getting them daily up until sometime near Christmas. It's only thanks to TG member Galen Benson that I have any internet access. I'd never met Galen, but he drove several hundred miles just to loan me his old laptop. Now if that doesn't restore a fellow's belief, I don't know what will.
Ed
TGMM Family of the Bow
Very easy to believe, another tradgang member going the distance to help out,not a better bunch around.
Thanx for sharing. Wish you the best of health.
Wishing you the best with your health challenges.
Question though - I can't find the posting. Can someone direct me to the link?
Thanx
You are sure to have the thoughts of everyone here.
Take care.
The information you have shared, helped ease my mind when it came time for my young sons to bowhunt.
I learned alot, and continue to do so.
For all your efforts...thank you.
Good luck with the treatments Doc...prayers sent your way from NY
Here you go Gary, a direct link.
http://tradgang.com/noncgi/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=24;t=000014
Ed
TGMM Family of the Bow
Dr. Ashby, I don't remember if you have ever tested Self bows in any of your tests, but do you think you could do one or 2? I enjoy the tests you have done on many BH's and other bows and on some of the biggest game.
Oops, thanx, my bad. Was there and read 2008 update but was thinking 2009 in my mind and didn't open to read the content.
Thanx again
Sal, I haven't conducted any testing with self bows. The testing is directed towards arrows, rather than the bow that launched them. The arrow doesn't know what type of bow launched it. I just use different bows to test at different levels of arrow force. Regardless of bow type, if the arrow comes off with equal force (and is equally well tuned) the terminal performance will be the same. There are plenty of self bows out there that are fully capable of taking buffalo size game .... with the right arrow.
That, however, is not to say I don't have an interest in the so called "primitive" bows. I have Part 1 of a two part article on the bows and arrows of Papua New Guinea in the current issue of Primitive Archer. The arrows will be in Part 2, and there some real thought provoking things in the arrow section of the article.
By the way, those PNG natives, using their "primitive bows" and "primitive arrows" hunt with far better success than 99%+ of us 'moderns" ... but, as the article will show, perhaps their arrows are, in many ways, a lot less "primitive" than what most "moderns" are using today!
Ed
TGMM Family of the Bow
Thanks Dr. for clearing that up. I just figured on asking since this thread is called "40# Recurve and a Buffalo" So asking about a self bow that most say is 10-15 lighter for arrow spine then glass/Lam bows, is why I asked my question. But Your post answered it for me... Again Thanks.
My pleasure, Sal
Ed
TGMM Family of the Bow
Ed,
Great information as always. I'm really interested in the performance of arrows in the 25% FOC catagory compared to the EFOC arrows at 30+.
Any insite in the difference all else being equal?
Mike
Dr Ashby. Thanks for all the work you put into getting this info together. Not everybody agrees whether it is important for deer or not. Not sure I do. But I do know that it is a ton of information that I didn't have access to before that I can use to make my own choices.
That last part is important to me and I bet to most of us here.
Again Thanks
ChuckC
Dr. Ashby, I'm new to the trad world. Only been hunting with trad gear the last three years. I must say that I love your articles. They are very informative, and I have let my compound friends read them, and some of them have changed their set-ups due to the knowledge you have shared. Keep up the good work, and if you ever have the desire to hunt whitetails in Indiana look me up, your welcome anytime. I wish you the best of health. Take care, Perry
Mike, yep, a real fair idea. I think that information is scattered throughout Part's 3 to 6 of the upcoming Updates ... lots of comparative data, setup to setup. I've got the first six parts done in draft form, and just started on Part 7.
Thank you, Chuck. That's exactly where I found myself in 1980, wanting information that just was not available. It's what started all this.
Perry, be real careful. You never know where I'm likely to turn up ... because I never know for sure where I'm headed next. Could be your front door!
Ed
TGMM Family of the Bow
Doc's info has been a great help. I just spoke with him last week about a spike bull I shot using a 43# @ 29" bow. My arrows are 435 grains tipped with a single bevel 200 grain head for just under 24% FOC. I shot him twice at 35 yards -the first arrow entered mid-body and stuck in the opposite shoulder, the second shot was a complete pass through entering low and tight to the shoulder and out through the brisket.
I know many will poo-poo my setup for elk, but I can shoot this setup much more accurately than my bows in the 50# plus range.
I do believe the high FOC does help when using light arrow/bow combos.
Lots of great info Doc... Loved every min of reading.. Great work..
Cody
Always interesting reading your work, Ed. As one of those "low poundage" shooters, I came to appreciate the performance advantages of very high FOC and heavy arrows some time ago. There is no doubt that through your contributions to the body of knowledge on arrow lethality and performance that you have prompted many people to think differently about their set-up. And while I have no immediate plans to take any of my 40# bows on a buffalo hunt...your research proves that with the right arrow, a low poundage bow is indeed a force to be reckoned with :thumbsup: .
Many Thanks, :notworthy: :clapper:
Claudia
Thanks Claudia, that's really appreciated. I always look forward to hearing your comments and input. Men are inteligent ... women are smart! :notworthy:
Ed
After reading the article I'm impressed. What length were the arrows? I shoot mid forties at 26". I'm very interested in using similar arrows as I'm going after elk and large wild boar next season.
QuoteOriginally posted by Dr. Ed Ashby:
Thanks Claudia, that's really appreciated. I always look forward to hearing your comments and input. Men are inteligent ... women are smart! :notworthy:
Ed
And you are wise!!!!
Mike, I draw 27". Arrow length varies because I use arrow length as one of my main bare shaft tuning variable for EFOC and Ultra-EFOC arrows.
Duane, I might be dumb, but I didn't get this old by being stupid! :bigsmyl:
Ed
Dr. Ed,
I wish you the best with your prostate cancer. Although my cancer was in my neck, I was required to go through chemo and a long series of radiation treatments. My dad had your condition and underwent radiation for his prostate cancer almost 30 years ago. Fortunately, with advances such as IMRT radiation (which I assume you are having), the same curative effects can be obtained with less injury to surrounding tissues. I know from personal experience that it will be a long road to optimal recovery, but I have great confidence you will get there. You will have my prayers along the way, although they mean nothing since God will be the power that cures you, with a little help from his physician servants.
And I also want to thank you for your research and the fact that you share it with all of us.
God bless,
Allan
Thanks Allan, prayers are really appreciated. I'm optomistic. The cancer is a Grade 7, but today's cure rate is still 70%. That's probably better than the odds I had of surviving that Aussie spider's bite in the Outback! If I hadn't been prepared, having some pretty heavy duty medications in my 'possibles bag', that one might have got me.
Ed
TGMM Family of the Bow
Ed,
I would like a 27" arrow w/ EFOC like in your article. What arrow do you recomend I start with, 35/55? 45/60? Don't know much about carbons, always used wood and some aluminum.
Thanks for any help in direction you could provide me.
Mike, working up an EFOC arrow setup is much like handloading rifle ammunition; a lot of varible factors, and more than one way to get to the 'load' you want. The more center-shot your bow, the stiffer the shaft spine you'll need. The best pointers I give you is that weight distribution is the key. You want the weight at the shaft's rear to be as little as you can get away with.
It appears that there's no point of diminishing returns with FOC, at least not within the realm of what we can practically build. That said, start with a ball-park idea of the total arrow weight you want to use, then start seeing how you can break that weight up with the components you can get; how much for shaft, and how much for tip weight. I'm currently using a lot of the GT Ultra-Light shafts, simply because their lower weight-per-inch makes it easier to reach high amounts of EFOC. Lower shaft weight-per-inch reduces shaft weight back of the 'fulcrum' and and leaves more of the arrow's planned total weight for the point setup. Both boost FOC.
That didn't give you any specifics for your individual setup, but that's darned near impossible for me to do. Don't overlook the thickness of your arrow-plate as a potential tuning factor when you start developing your 'handload' EFOC arrow. It sometimes lets you use a lighter shaft, having a lower static spine, than you would think you could get away with when using such high tip weights
Ed
TGMM Family of the Bow
Dr. Ashby,
It is great to see your new research info! Can't wait to see the others too.
I started using Grizzly BHs on EFOC arrows with weights above the heavy bone threshold last year after digesting your results, and have been extremely impressed by the performance on game - from both the recurve and compound bow. This should be required reading for anyone that hunts large game with a bow.
As a cancer survivor myself, I wish you all the best. :)
Arne
Thank you, Arne. Glad you're also using the setup from your compound. I'm making an effort to spread the information into the compound world too, and having someone out there using it from their compound lets others see what the setups can do. Starting to get a fair number of the compound folks using better arrow weight, EFOC setups and tougher broadheads.
I'm hoping it will help lower the wound-loss rate. It was four failures in one year with light arrows ... and 'wrong' broadheads ... from a compound that first got me interested in trying to find the How, What, When, Where and Why of terminal arrow performance.
Ed
TGMM Family of the Bow
This has been eye opening for me! I shoot in the 40# range. I only have a 23" draw. I mainly hunt small game and whitetail. I am headed to the shop to play with my set-up.
Katie