Trad Gang
Main Boards => PowWow => Topic started by: Mr.Magoo on October 12, 2009, 10:48:00 AM
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Maybe I've been brain-washed by Disney, but I had a doe with a fawn come by my stand TWICE this morning and just couldn't drop the string. I did draw, but just couldn't do it.
Hopefully I'm building-up good karma for a 10 point to walk by.
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Sometimes I let em pass.It all depends on what the voices in my head are saying or how hungry I am for some fresh backstraps.
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Theres nothing wrong with having a soft spot... I Like to beklieve thats why I have been so UN-successfull over the years. We used to joke with my dad. He hunted for 30 years before he shot a deer We didnt think he was THAT unlucky..LOL He a big Softee....
That KARMA is Growing for you...
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Normally I never give it a second thought if shooting the doe or the fawn.A couple weeks ago a big doe came out in a food plot with two little ones.While I was waiting for the doe to work down a little closer the little ones put on a show for me.I have watched lots of deer play but this was a spectical that went on for 20 minuites.Never have I seen such frolicing,chaseing and playing grab ass going on. :D At one point one of the fawns jumped over mommy at full run with the other right on her tail.When the doe finally got right for a shot I took my arrow off the string.I might kill her any other time but the little ones earned her a pass that day. :notworthy: All I could thing the whole time was how I wished I had a camcorder at the time instead of the bow. :)
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Originally posted by Izzy:
Sometimes I let em pass.It all depends on what the voices in my head are saying or how hungry I am for some fresh backstraps.
LOL, I'm with Izzy.
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I let a mom and fawn walk this morning, too. I like to shoot a judo at a spot where they were at.
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If the little ones still have spots I normally won't shoot the mom... guess its just my weak spot but if they have lost those spots they can fend for themselves :)
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I can't bring myself to do it either. I shot a doe once and tracked her into the trees and her fawn was bedded by her.
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I say to myself every year that I will kill the first legal deer that I can get close enough to...
Then when a yearling comes in I watch them and let them walk... I just do not want to kill "this years deer" esp. when I cannot usually tell if it is a button buck or not. Buttons are perfectly legal but I want the bucks to grow older. Does are always in trouble.
John III
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I let them walk as well. My husband is glad that I do. Makes less deer for him to help drag out of the woods:) Seems like Moms and babes everywhere this season.
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I don't shoot the little ones. That is my only rule. They are tender, but too easy and a lot of work for the meat volume. I have let a doe with fawns walk once. They spent too much time under my stand behind a leafy branch where I couldn’t get an arrow in her ribs. I watched them do the nuzzling thing and lick each other’s faces for a long while. I couldn't shoot after that so I let her walk when she got in the open. I needed one more to round out the years meat supply, and I figured I had time to shoot some other deer. That was the last shot I had that year. Kicked myself a whole year for being a softy. I never had a hesitation since then. This year I had the same thing happen. Had the little ones either on the back side or front of the vitals. A couple times I was in the clear only to have a fawn head pop into my shooting hole in the leaves. I didn’t get a shot off, but not because I was holding back.
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Most of the data that I have read suggests fawns will be fine after august if the doe is killed.I still try to harvest a dry doe or a 1 1/2 year old "hay burners" without a fawn when I am lucky enough to draw a antlerless tag.This year the fawns all had still had spots durning archery season because of late rut last year.I think the fawn survial rate would be low without the doe present this season.I know I will always be softy though.
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I let a button buck walk several times last year and ate tag soup. That's ok though.
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I have a hard time of it to anymore. Guess I'm getting soft as well. Heck....a few weeks ago I set small box traps for a few mice and chippies that were digging out trenches underneath the pool. Caught them, and was on my way to drowning them, and just couldn't do it. Ended up taking them 10 miles down the road and releasing them.
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Worst hunting experience I ever had in my life was with a first week doe that I dropped back in the 70s. She had a fawn with her that refused to leave after she went down. The entire time I was dressing her, the fawn stood just out of eyesight bleating. I went back the next morning to get my stand, and that fawn was still there bleating. I knew that fawn would survive, but I decided right then and there that I'd never do it again.
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I went hunting yesterday evening, first time this year even though the season has been open for 3 weeks. We have had rain almost every day and that combined with my hectic fall schedule I just didn't make it to the woods.
I really went hunting to watch the sun go down, not to kill anything. I had 5 does working around my stand, none with fawns and passed on about 10 perfect shot opportunities 12 yds or less. I don't generally pass on shots but just didn't want to kill a deer yesterday. I will probably regret my decision when the freezer is empty later in the year.
On the original topic, I never shoot does with young fawns, too much softy in me in my old age.
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I let 'em pass about as often as any other apex predator would.
That said, I might get a little picky with the smoke pole this year. "MIGHT".
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The only reason I pass on one is I don't feel like dragging one out(which isn't too often), or I think I will have a chance at a big buck there. Here in NC we need to do all we can to control our deer herd. The fawn will be fine. LH
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I hear you… It’s the dilemma of being human and a predator.
Food for thought, if the fawn is a button buck the doe will chase him off next spring when she is ready to give birth. So, if you want to see more bucks you may want to keep this in mind. Of course just because the doe is dead doesn’t mean the young buck will stay in the area but it may increase the chances.
Deer and Deer Hunting magazine recently had an article about the doe chasing off her last year’s buck fawn written by Charles J. Alsheimer (if my memory is correct). He describes how the doe rids herself of the young buck and it is not a pretty thing. She pretty much beats him up until he gets the message and leaves. As you can imagine he’s a little confused and it takes him a while to get the message. After all, this is his mother and he has been by her side for his entire life and then suddenly she turns on him. Nature is rough and not for the weak.
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I hunted with a college friend of mine who were huge land owners. One of the propertys we hunted on was a 6,000 acr cattle farm that they turned into nothing but hunting land. There land was way overpopulated so they hired a well known bioligist and started weighing and pulling all the jaw bones for aging. We were told the best way to manage the heard was to take out as many of the yearlings we could. We had 75 doe tags so it was quite a undertaking.He said it was better to leave your older doe because thats the deer you wanted your dominate bucks to breed. Out of those 75 deer only about 10 were young bucks and they stayed on this program for about 10 yrs. Some of the deer they have taken in the last few years have been 150 caliber bucks and this is land in North Alabama. I always found it hard to shoot those small deer but the results speak for themselves.
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I would have to be really hungry to shoot a spotted fawn. I like to give them at least a chance to get another year older. Just me.
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Im with you George but we never did shoot any spotted fawns and it was real hard to shoot those little guys. But we were told if we wanted to have a healthy herd with a good quality gene pool with the biggest bucks that was the best way to go. Befor we started that program a 5 year old buck would average 180lbs live weight with a decent rack. The weights jumped up to 220lbs and better with huge racks and 90 percent of the does were being bred by the end of december. Before some of the deer were being bred all the way into the end of febuary.
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Does with spotted fawns get a pass from me. But if the fawns have already lost their spots and are fairly large then I have no problem taking the doe. Two years ago, the first day of archery (mid Oct), I had a doe with two spotted fawns 15 yards from my stand... she got a pass. Later, the last week of the season (late Feb) the doe and fawns came by again. This time the fawns where 3/4 the size of the doe, so I took the doe.
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Sometimes yes sometimes no. It depends on the situation. It would a lot easier if they didn't taste so good.
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Newbie here looking for my first traditional kill and would still pass on fawns or even a doe with fawns. Now come late season like Rufus mentioned that would likely all change and I would be hardpressed not to drop the doe. Especially if they give me the slip all fall! LOL
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I'm one of those guys that can't shoot anything that trusts me, such as a fawn or young deer that will stand and look at me curiously. But I have no problem with people that do, its just not my thing.
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Yeah...when I take a doe I prefer she be alone. Had 2 families walk past me last weekend. Couldn't bring myself to loose the string.
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I have passed on many does with fawns and cow elk with a calf. Just can't seem to do it.
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Dont feel bad my work partner and I had a bet that who ever shot the first doe on opening day the loser would have to buy the other a case of beer of their choice, well opening day here see comes i get my feet in position here she comes into my shooting lane start to draw and I see another deer behind her and it's her little ones a button buck and a doe fawn. I just could not do it the button buck still had spots on him and they were both still feeding off mom, so 20 minutes later my phone vibrates and you guessed it I bought a $35 case of SamAdams "Octoberfest"
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I take what God offers me and I'm grateful for it.
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Wow, didn't realize I was so alone. I was already about as picky as a panther, but it helped solidify my thoughts (and instincts) to read David Petersen's "Confessions of a Would Be Baby Killer". It was in TBM about four years ago. You might give it a read.
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Everybody has a different need. For me and my house. I'm the only one who eats deer meat. So I seem to be more selective in what I shoot. Momma's with little one's get the pass.
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I wont take that shot either
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I enjoy the watching as much as the shooting and eating. Does with fawns or even small yearlings get a pass. Especially if I watch them for a while and watch them "play".
I am a softy and admit it. I love to hunt, but I also feed more stray cats than I care to admit.
I am a member of Quality Deer Mgmt. and our club tries to follow it, but in the fading light, or early morning pre-dawn, QDM be damned, a playful fawn will make me pass on the doe every time even if for management reasons she should be taken.
The other guys in my club get pissed at me because I won't kill a rattlesnake, water moccasin, or shoot raccoons off of feeders.
It is personal with me, and I alone have to live with myself.
(But Lord I love fresh venison liver and onions and fried heart!)
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I'm kinda the same as Day Dreamer, I love venison, but my family not so much. I just like to hunt, not on a mission to pack as much venison in the freezer as possible. One nice doe and I'm good, no need to take the babes.
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A friend of mine, he’s a paraplegic. He was giving up on life (long story) and we talked him into getting a cross bow. After eight years of not hunting he was pumped. We dropped him off at his ground blind. He said I’m killing the first deer that passes by even if it has milking lips. So, we leave him there for the morning hunt. At about 11 am we go to check up on our little buddy. He is smiling ear to ear. We walk up I say you look like you have an arrow missing, yep he said. Is it a big one, he goes off, she is a monster. OK my friend calm down we will go find her. So we head out following the trail of blood, 50 yards into the trailing we lose blood, then the trail splits. My friend Todd said I’ll take this trail you take the other, if you find her give a hoot. So we go off 5 or 10 minute’s and I hear Todd hoot, I go over and I see Todd. I say is it a nice one. Todd picks the Deer up by one leg with the brightest spots I ever did see. We drag the deer to our friend, he see’s us coming and with the most excitement I have witnessed in years, he yells is it a big one. We said oh yea it is huge, we drag the deer like we got a real load. After taking 50 brakes in the fifty yard to our friend he finally sees the deer oh man he said I can’t believe it. I would have swore that deer was a big one, being the good friend I am I said maybe we only found her baby and you shot low and this one dropped out. That went well. As bummed out as he was we offered him all kind of support. After everything settled down, it was time for some pics so Todd gets the camera out and our friend saw him, what you doing with that. Give me that camera. I wish I had a video camera as our friend chased Todd all over heaven and back in his wheel chair trying to get the camera. So small deer or not I know my friend will not forget the first deer he killed after coming back from some bad times in his life. I know I won’t as far as that goes neither will Todd. Good hunting little buddy. :knothead: :banghead:
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You da man, I am a sucker for momma's and babies too, just don't need venison that bad, but like others have said, it's a personal choice.
If they are weaned, I am all for taking nice yearlings, besides they eat the best!
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I have crop tags for deer damage. Now I'll take a doe with a yearling no problem. I had a doe with two little spotters under my tree. I wasn't about to take out three deer for one. The land owner a women witnessed what I did and ripped me for not shooting all of them. Boy some women are heartless!!
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Nope, can't do it, they will walk, I'll pick up road kills first ...
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I can't do it either.
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I Let em' walk on opening day....I drew and let down.
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I had an easy shot at a doe fawn without spots yesterday in Maryland and couldn't do it. The landowner is counting on us to take some does. I blame it on being a Dad!
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I will let them walk anymore. Used to not be that way but I would put 5 to 7 in the freezer. Not so much these days. Still do some managements hunts from time to time and if we catch a doe with a button buck she's fair game. Mainly just don't like fooling with cleaning all them deer anymore and just enjoy being out there. Now if'n it's a big boy I'll track and clean and sit all day if'n I have to. I just enjoy being there and taking mature deer anymore.
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I like leaving the old does to teach the kids. Yearling does (1.5 yrs) are in trouble. Buck Fawns (button bucks) get a free pass, but doe fawns, well, it just depends on the day and the shot presented.
The yearling / fawn confusion is kind of a hot button with me. Deer aren't yearlings until they are a full year old. Those little deer with the doe are fawns, not yearlings. It's pretty easy to recognize a yearling doe traveling with a mature doe/fawn family group.
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I let a perfect 2 to 3 year old cow elk go at first light on first day of elk season this year. It was my first trad hunt in over twenty years. I was 1/4 inch from full draw when a pair of twin calves that were still at suckling size ( late birthing ). I slowly let down and let her pass. It was an chip shot at 25 yards with a wide open kill zone shot. No way am I going to kill three elk with one shot. I moved on dry cow and got pegged by a yearling. No big deal. It just means I gotta hunt hard late season. That will be really rough on me.
I spent 8 years serving my country and spent my share of time in the sand box fighting for our country. When I make a kill I want to be able to look back at it and feel good that it was clean, made responsably, and fed my family without damaging anything but that one animal.
It is just my way of doing things. No question for me a doe or cow with suckling age young always gets a pass. Get them past suckling and the does gets it, and make no mistake, a yearling elk inside thirty yards is meat!
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Let a little one pass waiting for the doe. The little one was almost as big as her mom. The doe never gave me a shot. I am hunting with a self bow and wanted to get one with it. Next time.
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I let the does with little ones pass too...if it's early in the season. If it's late (like Nov.) and the freezer is empty, I definately shoot. The fawns are long since weaned and won't miss mamma. No doubt that my favorite deer to eat, however, are the 18 month old dry does. Yum!
Claudia
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I'm with Izzy too. I've passed on respectable bucks and shot lesser bucks, passed on does with fawns, and shot a doe and her yearling. Something tells me which ones to shoot at. I don't know what it is. If I'm not meant to take that animal, don't worry, I'll miss. LOL!
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Well, the first time I went hunting as a kid, and my father shot a doe... I had to wipe a tear when I looked at that dead animal. Years later, my father shot a doe with a fawn. Didn't bother me as much. I don't know why. Scary as it may sound, I guess you get used to it.
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I couldn't do it myself yesterday. I stood, got the bow off the hook and then just enjoyed watching them eat acorns under the whiteoak for about 20 minutes. I've done this a few times over the years.
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I have passed and I have dropped the string. Never regretted either decision.
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I don't shoot does with fawns or yearlings. I watch them frollic all year in the field.
I also never hunt on Christmas Eve because the animals talk to each other.
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i let hogs with soft ball size little ones pass last week
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Having empathy is not weakness. Sensing the connection between a doe and fawn is evidence of a larger view of life, which is always a good thing. There will be other opportunities that will feel just right.
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If I need meat and the shot is right, I let it fly. This is only my second year hunting traditional, first year with a longbow, and have yet take take a deer with trad gear. I will take any doe, whether she has a fawn or fawns.
Several years ago hunting out west, on the last day of the bowhunt (compound bow), I had a shot at a muley doe with twins. It was early September and the fawns were tiny. I decided I would rather go home empty-handed. I was sitting on the ground against a boulder, and the doe kept feeding toward me until she was only about 8 yards from me, quartering away. It was tempting. Plus the fawns bleated almost non stop for 15 to 20 minutes. I almost shot the doe to end her misery! They were cute for about 10 minutes, then very annoying. Never regretted coming home empty-handed though. I don't think the little ones would have made it without mom at that point.
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The fact is there are very few dry does (for whatever reason)in any herd. The only way someone can say they do not shoot does(on a regular or semi regular basis) that have fawns and have it be true is to never shoot does. Often the fawns are near the doe, but not with her. To be sure of one being dry would require most to scout for, identify and target a particular doe - something I am sure few if any do on a regular basis.
Steve
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I saw a mature doe ahead of me Sunday afternoon, feeding along the same trail I was on. I made a great stalk, and wound up 20 yards away with her broadside. Thats when I noticed the little one off to the side. I let them both pass.
Later on maybe I would have shot one of them. Who knows? Most of us let lots of deer pass every year. I think thats a good thing. It's what seperates us from the animals, because you know darn well a coyote or wolf wouldn't hesitate.
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Really... pleeeease, check out the article I mentioned. Hint: it's not the "mother" does that are in question.
As for hogs, I consider it obligatory for hunter/conservationists to shoot them all, by any means necessary. Fortuantely some states are getting aggressive. Year-round, no bag limit is not aggressive. I'm talking all that plus night hunting and baiting. Disagree? Wait till they destroy your hunting grounds. Or take a look at kudzoo and imagine a mammalian version.
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"...shoot them all, by any means necessary."
That must be the new 'conservation' theory.
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I probably won't shoot a fawn with spots, but we have the availability for several tags here, in some areas, an infinite amount.
From a conservation standpoint, the fawns are most likely to die in their first winter anyway, shoot one of them !
ChuckC
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Nevermind. Debate, even criticism is fine. I don't come here for sarcastic remarks. Try a direct statement next time. For an example see my last post, or my last sentence.
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Right n, Chuck! The adult deer will most likely survive, being stronger, more able to kick weaker deer away from food sources, and reach vegetation that fawns can only stare at. The fawns are the ones who die in winter, and they are the ones in whom Nature has invested the least. The older does teach their offspring the hows of survival, and are valuable assets to the herd.
I will shoot ol' milk-lip in a heartbeat, and let the doe go. Where I hunt, this year's crop has lost their spots, but if they hadn't, a spotted hide is a very pretty thing to use on possibles bags and the like.
I, too, am subject to those softenings of the heart, and a slackening of the bowstring when watching family dynamics. Compassion is never a bad thing, if you have a good supply of groceries. That being said, my first bowkill was a doe fawn. As was said before, it is a complex thing, this taking a life, and a voice will tell you whether this is a good kill or a heartache.
Killdeer :archer:
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Im still waiting for my first traditional deer harvest. I thought i was golden on monday night when a doe and fawn walked under my stand. When i was waiting for the doe to turn the right way for a broadside shot, the little fawn came over and tried to feed. After that, the doe started cleaning the head of her little fawn. I just couldnt drop the string after seeing that. Plus, with a whole month befor gun starts, ill have plenty of other opportunities.
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The truth of the matter is, as traditional archers or archers in general. We have the luxury of time, most of the time. We are able to look, judge, assess, and most of the time we can chose when we want to shoot or not shoot a deer. I have seen guys misjudge a deer usually you will hear, I would have swore that deer was bigger. I think that happens when they come in buy themselves. I shot a spike one time I swore was a doe, he had 1” spike I never saw. Trust me I was looking, I saw the deer coming in and was looking for buttons, didn’t see any, so then at that time never looked at the head again. When I was convinced the deer was a shooter I was focusing on the spot to hit from that point.
I had a button buck come into 15 yards yesterday he walked. A young Doe may not have, not a fawn. For me moms and little ones together walk, mainly the reason for me is simple they are together because the young doe has more to learn, that is why she is still in moms hip pocket.
Don’t be fooled some of those little does are much sharper than the old lady.
Remember the younger doe that busted you and mom looked at her like she was a nut. :archer:
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I've had a doe and two fawns under my stand every time out, draw regularly for practice. That dead beat dad will show sooner or later! :saywhat:
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Come on Alex. Comments of 'killing all of anything by any means necessary' invites just a touch of sarcasm don't you think. Besides, sarcasm has a long and noble history in literature and criticism.
I don't think anyone's saying their choice is better than another (at least no one else seems to be).
If that isn't "direct" enough for you, feel free to PM me.
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Magoo, Bear was talking about feral hogs. I agree with him and find nothing in his statement that invites sarcasm. These wild hogs aren't native, are extremely destructive, compete with native species and destroy their habitats. Wild hogs are NOT supposed to be here. Kinda like the asian carp taking over the Mississippi River drainage. We should do our best to eliminate them all here.