Ever heard of a flemish string being blamed for a limb twisting? I did recently, even heard that flemish strings were "known" for causing twisted limbs.
Anyone ever heard of this before? Ever seen it? Ever had it explained?
I've been making flemish strings for over 15 years, and at least in the beginning I made some pretty lousy ones. Even then, I never had one cause a limb twist. Since then, I've literally made thousands, and never had anyone say a limb twist was caused by one.
I have an idea of what's going on, but would like to get some input--preferably informed input, but opinions work too.
Chad
I forgot to mention--if it matters, the string in question isn't one I made, and the bow in question isn't one I sell.
Chad
Tiny: Are you twisting your strings too TIGHT again!
I`ve made alot of flemish twist strings and never had a problem with limbs twisting.Never heard of that string being the blame for limbs twisting either.Somebody either don`t know what there talking about or they were misinformed or tryed a flemish twist string and did something else to twist the limb and blamed string for it.
crummy bowyer/build?
Like you I have made to many to count. I had a guy tell me his bow delaminated and my string was the reason. I asked when it happened and he said, and I quote " After I dry fired it for the third time in a row" Never had a limb twist. I made some bad strings in the begining, uneven twists, loose loops, and just mistakes you make when you first start. They all work just fine.
QuoteOriginally posted by DesertDude:
I had a guy tell me his bow delaminated and my string was the reason. I asked when it happened and he said, and I quote " After I dry fired it for the third time in a row"
WOW... :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
My first thought is this Chad, Most guy's leave their recurves strung, and a lot of guys aren't real good at stringing a recurve. If a guy orders a new string, goes to restring his bow and twists the limb, well naturally it's the new strings fault. :rolleyes:
QuoteI had a guy tell me his bow delaminated and my string was the reason. I asked when it happened and he said, and I quote " After I dry fired it for the third time in a row"
Rotf......that's better than the string causing a twisted limb!
QuoteTiny: Are you twisting your strings too TIGHT again!
I may be twisted to tight, but my strings aren't. I didn't even make the string that was on this bow.
I appreciate the input--keep it coming.
I have a lot of bows and many, many strings and can say from experience that none of my strings have ever twisted any of my bow limbs!
I make some of the ugliest strings ever and never had any problems with limbs or anything else.
My limited 46 year experience notwithstanding, I've never heard of any string twisting a limb. Check for uneven string groove, improper stringing technique, faulty limb/delam (?), or space aliens.
Only been making strings for a year.. I have not experienced and limb twists and some of my strings have been pretty bad. They are getting better
Dont believe it.It wont happen.
A lot of help you all are--don't tell me that just three people have ever heard of this (the one who said it, the one he said it to, and me)?
Just kidding--I do appreciate the input. What got me is the person who made the claim said "flemish strings are known for twisting limbs" or something close. I thought surely I haven't been this lucky for this long, but wanted to check just in case.
It happens when you put a string with a left-handed twist on a left-handed bow, or right-hand twisted string on a right-handed bow. The torque of the bow works in tandem with the torque of the string, causing the bow not really to twist, but to "bow" to one side. The stringmakers finally admitted to this tendency, and went on to produce a public-education video, to prevent folks from falling victim to the string/bow torque inherent to the design under these circumstances.
The way to make the string work, if you find yourself with a string twisted the same direction as the bow's handedness, is to put the string on upside-down, thereby reversing the twist orientation. Other than having to unstring from the bottom limb (not disadvantageous, gravitationally speaking, as you will find that your string stays put without a string keeper, provided you keep the bow upright), there will be little or no change in your shooting routine, and you can use the string with no risk to you or your bow. This being fairly common knowledge, it is not surprising that merchants do not bother to market strings that are specific to the orientation of your bow. Sticklers for tradition will, of course, want the proper string because of the difference in top and bottom loop sizes, as they do not want to be seen unstringing their bows "incorrectly". So, right-handed shooters seek out right-handed stringmakers, who naturally produce right-hand-twisted strings. It is exceedingly hard for a left-handed person to make a right-handed string, and vice-versa, and a truly ambidextrous stringmaker is in the highest demand.
Double-shelf bows, by the way, necessitate the use of the endless string type, which is never to be twisted either direction.
If you wish to learn more about the dangers of Flemish twist strings, if handled improperly, I will give you the name of that video that went with the PSA when the stringmakers decided that covering their assets would be better than a possible flood of lawsuits and reimbursing thousands of archers for their ruined bows. The video came out a couple of years ago, and is called "Doing the Twist".
Glad to help.
Killdeer :wavey:
Killdeer,
Your sarcasm runeth over. I like it! :D
Now I know why Killy is a "Chatter" member and Jason is a "Charter" member :D
That was funny. Thanks.
I asked Arvid Danielson to write it out for me because he can explain it much better than I.
"I've been asked to explain how a bow string can cause limb tip twist. Not all types of bow strings or all types of bows are susceptible to limb tip twist. An endless string has a very smooth loop, which will slide smoothly around the nock end string groove with few problems. On the other-hand, the tightly twisted string loop of a Flemish twist string produces hard ridges around the string loop; these can hang-up on the narrow radiuses of the string groove of the nock end. Always, after stringing the bow inspect the bow tips to verify the string is properly centered.
Centering the string does not mean to squeeze the string into the center of the limb with the tips of your fingers, it will not stay there if it is a Flemish string, the way to do this is to take a good hold on the limb 6 to 8 inches below the nock groove and with the other hand take hold of the string and with your fingers pull the string back just a few inches until the string lifts away from the belly of the bow, then gently pull the string to one side to re-center the string. If you watch it carefully you will see the string loop walk around the nock end string groove, lower the string back down to the center of the limb, this should take care of the most common errors in the diagnosis of limb twist.
The other thing to be aware of is the bow limb itself, the new exotic materials used in these bows completely change the traditional, structural physics of a bow. For example the use of carbon in a bow limb, carbon is much stiffer a material that it requires a reduction of core thickness of around 40%. That is quite significant when trying to stabilize a limb in tillering; it also makes it more susceptible to twisting from mistreating the bow."
I like Killie's response. lol
I'm throwin in the BS towel on this one.
Flemish twists "known" for twisting limbs. Thats the stupidest thing I've heard this week.
How could a Flemish have more of a chance than an endless loop even if it was possible? :knothead: They both follow the string grove (some are cut not always the greatest...many without a jib and by hand).
If you have a Flemish loop and an endless loop of the same size (loop diameter) how on earth can the string type make a difference? They both should put the same amount of pressure on the same part of he grove.
I'm going with left strung standing in corner...improper stringing...operator error?
I'm new but gee wiz!
Josh
"The Acme of foolishness" -Ulysees Everitt McGill, "Oh Brother, Where Art Thou"
Here's a simple fix to a non-existant problem; shoot a longbow.
Chad perhaps the last 8 strings you have made me will cause my bow limbs to twist...can you send me eight more so that I can do some research on limb twist for you? :)
Chad, You selling that brake a bow string again? My God if you need to sell a bow that bad just drop the price...
O-wait I didn't read the second post. :readit:
QuoteOriginally posted by LBR:
I forgot to mention--if it matters, the string in question isn't one I made, and the bow in question isn't one I sell.
Chad
MY BAD :knothead:
I've been watching this thread with a lot of interest because I know of a situation similar to the one Chad describes. The bowyer tells the client that his limb twisted due to the string he's using and refuses to replace the limbs. I admit my first thought was simply... poppycock. Now... just because I never heard of such a thing, doesn't mean it can't happen, so I was hoping to learn some bowyer's thoughts in this thread.
I've built about two dozen one-piece recurves, takedowns, and longbows but do not profess to be a bowyer; I've built my own endless and Flemish strings for 40 years and don't profess to be a string-maker either. I do think I've gained some experience, and one the first things I learned in bow-building was that the string grooves needed to be opened up and rounded so the string could have plenty of room with nothing to bind the loop.
vermonster13's post is almost word-for-word the explanation given to the client in this particular situation. While I'm open to learning more about this "string causing limb twist" speculation, I'm currently still of the opinion that it's... well... just silly, and I think Killdeer's post is probably the more accurate.
Honestly, at this point, to me it looks more like a contrived notion to lend plausible deniability to negate the bowyers liability. But I'm still open to learn. :^) I hope "other" bowyers or string-makers might see this thread and weigh in.
I'm not so sure a bowyer is trying to negate liability. I tend to think the owner strung the bow improperly. I use a bow stringer when stringing my bows, even the longbows. If he used the step through method on a recurve, there is a very high probably that he did the twisting of the limb himself.
Killie,
You trying to make us look/feel silly? :confused: :knothead: :biglaugh:
Bill
Bill,
I agree with you, but that's not what we're talking about. In this scenario, the bowyer blamed the limb twist on the string, not improper stringing, storing, etc.
If by their very design, flemish strings are prone to twisting recurve limbs, I highly doubt nearly every custom recurve maker out there would be providing flemish strings with their bows.
If a bowyer ever told me that his limbs were at risk of twisting due to the use of a flemish string, I'd run, not walk, in the other direction. I'm far from a "bowyer," but I can make a more stable recurve limb than that in my basement.
QuoteOriginally posted by vermonster13:
"The other thing to be aware of is the bow limb itself, the new exotic materials used in these bows completely change the traditional, structural physics of a bow. For example the use of carbon in a bow limb, carbon is much stiffer a material that it requires a reduction of core thickness of around 40%. That is quite significant when trying to stabilize a limb in tillering; it also makes it more susceptible to twisting from mistreating the bow."
I know you're just repeating what you were told, but with all due respect, I don't buy that explanation for a second. I have two sets of Winex limbs in my basement. Those limbs have no fiberglass and no wood or bamboo core material. They're some type of carbon and foam construction and their lateral stability is phenomenal.
I can grab the tip of a glass/wood recurve limb and torque (twist) it back and forth easily. By comparison, doing that with Winex limbs feels like trying to bend rebar. As a matter of fact, I'd just about defy anyone to torque a Winex limb sufficiently to induce lasting limb twist.
If a bowyer's limbs are such that the use of a Flemish string can damage them, the problem lies not in the limb materials. It's the design.
I think I had a bow twist a string once..........
:biglaugh:
Jason those are recurves and very wide. The limbs in question are Hybrid longbows. With the Flemish string on it, they sure looked to be twisted, it was taken off and the limbs were put in the mold and they were dead straight. The Flemish was restrung the way described above and everything was straight. An endless loop string was put on the bow was instant straight while strung. The bow has been shipped back with the string that was sent in with it and a new endless loop string.
Everything ships with endless from Black Swan now. For me they've been a little faster and quieter on mine.
Are we talking about a bowyer making this claim? A&H, Bob Morrison, OL Adcock, and others, are credible bowyers utilizing carbon and state of the art mfg techniques-they all send out bows with Flemish loop strings, and surely would not do that if those strings were to harm the bows. Personally, I would steer clear of a bowyer who blamed limb twist on string type alone.
QuoteOriginally posted by vermonster13:
The Flemish was restrung the way described above and everything was straight.
So the string wasn't the cause, but being strung incorrectly was.....looks to me like neither the bow or the string are at fault.
I read that as well on on of these forums - hogwash!
Arvid's comments are certainly plausible. But tip overlays, limb and string groove design could easily mitigate the tendancy, perhaps entirely, as is demonstrated in the rest of the marketplace. There would be a price for this design change obviously, adding limb mass at the string grooves will rob cast... even if only a tiny little bit. So my first reaction is, true but it's just like saying running pump gas in a top fuel dragster will not work and likely cause damage. In a practical sense nobody drives a top fuel dragster to work. Similarly, nobody buys a bow designed solely for speed and at the expense of this level of resilience or useability.
At least I know what bow/bowyer it is now.
The limb tips in that version of the hybrid are sensitive to the twist in the flemish string, it also probably didn't help that Arvid is left handed and made his own flemish strings at that time. No left hand hybrids from then have had any problems that I am aware of. The fellow who owns the bow had it for 16 months before he mentioned anything to Arvid (the bows have a 1 year warranty against defect) and it has been taken care of anyways.
The bow is a 74@28 which probably didn't help the matter.
Those limbs were built for about six months maybe and have been widened since. He also explained how to properly string that bow when he sold them.
This is getting good now-I'm going to make some more coffee...............anybody else?
All I can say is thanks! I have always used Flemish strings, which must be why none of my bow end up with straight limbs. From now on I will use an endless string so the bows I make won't end up with twisted limbs like this one:
(http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y91/Slivershooter/Pigger005.jpg)
Seriously, the bowyer should round the string groves so the string aligns itself when the bow is drawn. Also, if the limbs are that temperamental, I wouldn't trust them to hold up while I am running around the hills chasing elk.
QuoteOriginally posted by vermonster13:
The limb tips in that version of the hybrid are sensitive to the twist in the flemish string...
Then it's a design flaw in the bow. A&H makes extremely radical carbon-limbed hybrid R/D longbows with extremely small tip overlays. They come standard with flemish strings. I've never once heard of them having a limb twist problem.
Either way, if any bow limb design were so unstable that it could be twisted by simply using a flemish string, I'm not sure I'd want to subject it to rigors of bowhunting.
i think this thread had run its course, and the concern has been replied to by the the bowyer in question.
i will add this one comment - there are more than a few radical design bows that employ geometries which are quite different from 'conventional' bows.
these differences may require employing different approaches to shooting the bow, which includes any peripheral gear.
years ago, this happened to me with a particular radical design bow. there was a uniqueness to its design that required careful handling when braced or the string would literally fly out of the limb nocks.