Trad Gang

The DEC here in NY has confirmed they released a Mtn Lion in our area. We need this predator here like we need more Coyotes. Another tool I suppose to keep the deer herd in check.

The Lion was spotted by one of my friends in our neigboring town. Next day his wife spotted the cat 50 yds from his deck. A call to the DEC and it was confirmed. I only see problems ahead with this predator in town.

Whoa....DEC confirmed it?! I mean we have seen em around here for a while, but DEC always, and I mean always said they never existed in NY, unless they were "Someone's escaped or released exotic pey".

Interesting.

No way, That is something else, I would of thought they would have done it in the Adirondacks, not so far south.
So watch your back everyone. No joke fooling around a lion.

First I've ever heard of them actually admitting it as well.  They've been around a long time.....

They've been there longer than the state would like to admit.We've seen them over in Washington county.

Skipper make sure you check your roof as soon as you open your door to go to work! Wouldn't want anything to happen to you. I remember around 15 years or so ago when the deer population was taking over Fire Island I believe. Some knuckle head suggested they import a few pair of Mt Lions to thin the deer herd out there. Well what happens when the deer herd is gone? The Lions would be waiting on peoples house roofs for them when they get into their cars to go to work. I guess the lightbulb went off in someones head.Like you said between the bear and 'yotes it's a wonder we still have deer in Jersey any way.

if this was confirmed people should make a real big stink about it and start to lobby the local reps from the DEC and express there opinions on this subject. if people dont bitch and moan loud enough they will never stop it. the old expression "the noisy wheel gets th egrease" im sure there are enough people from this site to make phone calls and if word accidentily spreads to some of the "louder" folks from the southern part of the state who use the same areas we do for recreation, they may have enough clout to nip it in the bud.

it seems because are sport is looked down on in our society we tend not to make our voices heard. we need to rally together with everyone to stop this crap.

if this was confirmed people should make a real big stink about it and start to lobby the local reps from the DEC and express their opinions on this subject. if people dont bitch and moan loud enough they will never stop it. the old expression "the noisy wheel gets the grease" i'm sure there are enough people from this site to make phone calls and if word accidentally spreads to some of the "louder" folks from the southern part of the state who use the same areas we do for recreation, they may have enough clout to nip it in the bud.

just my 2 cents.

it seems because are sport is looked down on in our society we tend not to make our voices heard. we need to rally together with everyone to stop this crap.

Ah, no.  I'm calling bullcrap on this.  

Just sayin'......

Need documented proof of DEC involvement before I can buy it. The liability of them doing this covertly is mind boggling.

I hear stories of sightings all the time - in fact, probably more reports then in states where they have documented physical evidence. In spite of all these claims, I have never seen anyone provide any physical evidence - scat, hair, etc - or any documented photo. With 1000's of trail cams and cell cameras, you would think there would be one?

Is it legal to bay mountain lions with hounds up on the roof and take them with a bow?  Could be sporty on the Grizwalds roof around Christmas time.

As long as Christmas lights don't spook them.

I'd like to hear also how you came about the DEC confirmation. They say this officially:

http://www.dec.ny.gov/animals/44564.html

Would be interesting to find out how funds to do such could have been legally appropriated.

There's a sucker born every minute. I just thought they all shot compounds!

If Joe Skipp says it's true,believe it!!!!

His word has been Gospel around here for a long time (and I've personal known the man for many years)

What about if joe skipp's neighbor's wife says it? Sorry but I hear these stories all the time and they never pan out. Till there's a carcass and DNA proves it's from wild stock I'm a skeptic. When I worked in the adirondacks the postmaster from star lake told me a pack of five black panthers took down a deer on main street. I've heard every wildlife conspiracy there is.

Give it up guys, Joe is a stand-up gentleman and I don't believe he'd give much heed to a bunch of fools.

Let me help you put it into perspective. I have spent my life in the back-country of California where we have LOTS of cats. You see their track, you see their kill, heck, sometimes you smell them. See them? In all my years, even as a wildland fire fighter DEEP in the sticks, the most I've ever caught was a wink at a cat. Elusive doesn't even come close to describing the nature of the puma.

I have no doubt they traverse every state in the union. I also have no doubt that they've been creeping in the east-coast woods for quite some time. Here's the kicker: if you're seeing them in the burbs, it's too late! That cat is hungry and he has no idea that YOU are dangerous. No history, no mother to teach it otherwise - in short, the cats are loosing their fear of man.

She is not alone, that's a fact. Spot her in broad daylight near homes and I'm telling you if someone doesn't shoot that lion you are going to start hearing about missing pets if not a whole lot worse.

Big cats leave tracks and kills. If they are there, they'll leave sign.
They've been reported in our area for years and we have snow on the ground for months. Funny that they never seem to leave any tracks. The ones that live here must move down state for the winter!

There are lots of mountain lions here in Idaho; and in the 24 years I have lived here; I have seen less than ten.
And I spend a LOT of time outside looking with binoculars.
Most people that live here never see them ever.
Yet; my neighbor walked outside and found one eating her golden retriever.
Sneaky creatures...

Joe may be a stand up guy and he may believe this but I don't.  It's very simple, I'd like to have the name of the DEC personnel that confirmed it or see a link to their press release with the confirmation.  I'm terribly sorry but this is bunk and I mean no offense to Joe in saying that.

You guys just leave me shaking my head sometimes    

Believe what you want to believe,deny if you want to deny, but they are around...like it or not......

 Taking personal shots at Joe is just not cool!

If you have something constructive to say on the matter. like some have...then go ahead...

Personal shots won't be allowed!!

My post was not intended as a shot at Joe personally. Just an observation on the history of sitings as I have seen them. I welcome eagerly the presentation of documented evidence - that is all. Until then, I remain a skeptic with an open mind.

Steve

The DEC confirming they released a lion is what I am having difficulty swallowing. The policy has always been otherwise. I am sure Joe's friend told him they were told such, I just don't believe that friend is being 100% accurate in that statement. If a person from the DEC did make such a statement I don't think that person will have much job security if their identity was to become known.

If Joe was given some disinformation well... That's the way some people operate. I can tell ya what I do know. I've been hunting the same area of Greene County for over 35 years and KNOW there are cougars wild and free in the woods there.

Please understand why I can't give more details. Just reolize the DEC wouldn't go to Wally World to buy a mountain lion. These cats may be bread and released locally. Easy Button......

... mike ...

PS... Don't Ask! Don't Tell!

well, ill tell ya a story. i personally know at least 10 guys and women that have seen them in my area of western ma.  :(  
anout 12 years ago i was hunting in pownal vt. with 2 friends of mine. my buddy shot a buck at last light with his bow. we decided that coming back in the am would be the best bet. we did, and after 100 yds we found the buck with ZERO meat left on it, HANGING from a tree branch 15 ft in the air!!!  :confused:   dont tell me anything else would do that!!! because nothing else would!!  :eek:  

it then happend again about 2 weeks later!! then a well known and respected doctor saw a lion while riding his bike about 1 mile from our hunting spot...  :(  
believe what you want. dont believe it if ya want. just be openminded, AND show joe some respect..he's just givin ya the heads up!!

gaff

There was denial about coyotes being introduced to DE until someone shot one with a tattoo in their ear.  Hard to deny that.

Folks... I don't post often, but on this one I will chime in! Joe is a stand up guy and doesn't need or deserve to be pounded on in this forum! Curt deserves a thank you for putting a stop to the beating on Mr Skipp. Now the real issue at hand is can we discuss this topic logically? I feel the answer to that is a resounding yes! Let's leave the attacks for those who would like our sport and related outdoor activities to go away... one team one fight! United we stand divided we fall!  :campfire:

Steve Kendrot, they have your home state listed wrong. It shows Maryland, not Missouri! : )

My son saw one in our backyard and I'd put him up against anyone when identifying wildlife. I found a deer partially eaten and covered with leaves, sticks, and dirt AND some unusually large feline looking tracks. Now I have a BIG cat, but I believe a deer could whip his rear! Several of my neighbors have seen them as well. My next door neighbor even called and asked if it was safe for her grand daughter to walk the gravel road to the bus stop because they saw it. Now, I haven't seen one personally, but me and Perry Mason believe the circumstantial evidence warrents a bit of belief.  

I didn't think the DEC would admit it because if they recognized it as a big game animal in the state, they would have to develop a management plan and they don't have the money or staff for that???

Morning Fellas...hey..personal shots don't bother me. I'm attempting to find out today exactly who my friend spoke to at the DEC. I would like to also verify the information from the DEC but my friend of 30 yrs really has no reason to BS me when he stated they saw the cat.

For years farmers and hunters over in Dutchess Co. NY have seen tracks and spotted cats which "Were much bigger than Bobcats."  Personally, I hope there isn't a cat in the area and if there is, where did he wander down from...the Catskills.

The official DNR position in Iowa is that mountain lions do not exist in this state. Our local state wildlife biologist has stated in open in-town deer hunter seminar that this means that there is no legislation pending or law on the books which mentions mountain lions. And, that if one is seen by a hunter he may shoot it. As soon as there is enough evidence of cougars in Iowa, they will have to address them in regulations. Until then, its no closed season. I would not hesitate if I saw one around here.

I don't know about the NY DNR but I saw a mountain lion back in the early 90's when I lived in Olean, NY.

Not sure why it's so hard to believe.  The cats don't have to show their travel papers at any state border.

Curt is right as always here guys.   No room for disrespect!

we have all heard reports of sightings....heck a few years ago there was a summer you couldn't turn the news on here in Mass without a news story about sightings of a big cat in EASTERN Mass.  

over a decade ago there was scat found in The Quabbin Reservoir area, that was sent by MassWildlife to a government lab and confirmed to be Mt. Lion....who's last meal was cottontail.

and since they always give the same story of 'escaped or released pet'....I'm going to venture to guess Joe's neighbor misheard or is misremembering the DEC rep....I'm sure I would be pretty 'spun up' with a lion sitting in my back yard and quite likely could be given the secret recipe to Cold Fusion and wouldn't remember it correctly.  

until someone finds evidence of kittens they will always say 'there is no evidence of a 'breeding' population and fall back on the escaped or released pet.

Those of you that know Joe how much of a standup guy he is.........

Recently there was a sighting in New Hampshire, as you can see by the link, Fish and Game, while admitting that one of their "staffers" saw the animal while following up the original report, still downplays the existence of lions in our state.

http://www.fosters.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20090919/GJNEWS_01/709199855

And here is Fish and Games news release on their web site......

http://wildnh.com/Newsroom/News_2009/News_2009_Q3/mtn_lion_091809.html

I find it interesting that there have been no followup articles to the original reports....

I have absoulutely no doubt as to what Joe, or Terry, or Mike or Curt has said, and also understand that the official position of NY Fish and Game is that there are none in that state.  

Frankly, I am suprised that New Hampshire has gone as far as they have in admitting a "possible" sighting......

David

Shawn, I believe Missouri takes a little different approach. They try to tell us there are no big cats(wild) but since there isn't any season on them it would be illegal to shoot one...lol A highway 54 motorist proved to anyone with a TV that they do exist here because the film crew was there before the body was removed.

When it comes to NY DEC anything is possible.

When I reported to them that I saw Hogs in the NY/Penn border, local DEC told me I was nuts. Every year same story, they would deny it and told me I was watching some farmers animals. Big difference between a pink pig and a hog. Guess what look in the official NY Hunting guide, and they now say with a small game permit you can take a hog.

When I was hunting NY DEC MANAGED land a few years agon on Long Island, I told them I saw Turkeys, they told me I was wrong they were Pheasants. I pressed the issue. I basically told them that if they were indeed Pheasants and I shot them while small game hunting that it will legal. That's when they said yes they were Turkeys and I wasn't allowed to take one because they were being introduced back to Long Island.

Best way is ask the DEC up there if they did release one, if they say no way. Shoot it and tell them you thought it was a Lynx or Bobcat. See how fast they will change their tune.

Anyone who hunts in NY state can tell you that at best the DEC doesn't manage the game as best as possible.

Shaun...this is how Mass officially answers that question:

"Closed season throughout the year on all birds and mammals not mentioned herein or in Massachusetts
Migratory Bird Regulations."

The U.S. Fish and Wildlife tried to tell us in Montana that there were not any wolves here before they reintroduced them in Yellowstone Park.  Waite till they want to bless you with wolves also.  Here in the Billings Zoo we have a breeding pair of "Eastern Grey Wolves" that means you guys need some back to put things in balance again   :knothead:   If you believe what the goverment tells you or waite for them to rescue/take care of you, you will get exactly what you deserve.    :bigsmyl:

I have no doubt they are in NY. I have seen tracks. A kill...my wife and my mother have seen them. I have even had tracks follow mine, in a snow storm, while small gaming.

As far as I knew, and I worked for them, they(DEC) had a "not here" answer for cougars. I KNOW of atleast three road killed lions within 30 miles of me.

Whether you believe it or not, atleast be respectful with your opinion.

Terry, I would put your kids up against any wildlife expert too...

There is a website devoted to tracking cougar sightings in NY and the northeast. Its is trackincats. com....check it out.

I read an article about guides in the mid west who have sewn eyes(like you can get at the craft shop)on the back of their hats or packs,apparently a lion will not attack head on so the eyes make them think your facing them.This wont hurt to try.

if one came on my property i would just shoot it and claim self defence or that i was defending my family (kids dogs cats etc.) cause what are they gonna do to you (especially if they were introduced to the area by the DEC and not just a group that migrated to your area) and it might get them to realize the problem. and mountain lions around people (citys and what not) are bad, we have problems with them here in cali takin peoples pets, not too long ago there was a mountin biker killed and eaten by one (the big wild fires dont help either), if your seeing them in your general area id keep small pets and kids inside.

QuoteOriginally posted by lpcjon2:
I read an article about guides in the mid west who have sewn eyes(like you can get at the craft shop)on the back of their hats or packs,apparently a lion will not attack head on so the eyes make them think your facing them.This wont hurt to try.

i think im gonna have to sew eyes on the back of all my back backing gear cause like you said it dont hurt to try, and i wouldnt mind lookin kind of silly if it meant not getting eatin

A Mt Lion in Orange CTY.I thought it was a new Kempf model.Is it Joe?   :saywhat:

I am not sure about New York; but if an animal is proved to exist in a state; most states have to then follow up with a management plan; and that might involve extensive research - which would cost money.
Its just plain cheaper in some states to deny an animal exists - than to admit it and create a new bureaucracy around it.

Izzy: there are two wolves in all of us. Which one we feed: determines what kind of person we are. ( credit to a Native American for that tidbit of philosophy).

A Motivational Story with Wisdom -
Two Wolves
Cherokee Wisdom .

One evening an old Cherokee told his grandson about a battle that goes on inside people.

He said, "My son, the battle is between two wolves inside us all.

One is Evil. It is anger, envy, jealousy, sorrow, regret, greed, arrogance, self-pity, guilt, resentment, inferiority, lies, false pride, superiority, and ego.

The other is Good. It is joy, peace, love, hope, serenity, humility, kindness, benevolence, empathy, generosity, truth, compassion and faith."

The grandson thought about it for a minute and then asked his grandfather: "Which wolf wins?"

The old Cherokee simply replied, "The one you feed."

Preflex- The lion that attacked me was looking me straight in the eye when he did it. I will never forget that look !

A few years back here in Broome County, a woman went to feed her horses one morning and found one dead and one injured so much it had to be put down. They had raking claw marks on the neck and back and the dead one had bite marks on its neck and head. The DEC said it was coyotes or dogs. BS. I have someone I trust more than anyone come back from an atv ride shook up because one jumped in front of them at a close distance and there was no dought what it was. This was directly less than a quarter mile from my backyard.  In 1971 I was six yrs old and riding on the tractor with my Dad and one came out in the field we were working. I remember him taking me back to the house and taking my older brothers with guns to try and find it. Several people saw it and the game warden told him it was a pet that had escaped from Binghamton. Which we always believed. I hear stories all the time from people I don't believe but like I said I do believe the one instance. Around here most of the farms went out of business and the properties are slowly going back to woods. In the future (20-40 years) I think they'll be common. IMO

I think Joe is a great guy and can defend himself just fine.  People have questioned the title of his post "It's official", when no official statement has been found.  I don't think that is unreasonable.  Nothing wrong with being skeptical.  Most of the posts have been regarding the official statement, not blasting Joe's character or disrespecting.  Relax.

I dont think anyones blasting Joe.At first I thought he was laying a trail for us  but now I guess he really did hear about something.Hes a real good guy and if he told me HE saw a lion Id be assembling the hounds.

Hi Guys,
I am a retired NYS employee! Although not from DEC but DOCS. If you want something official from the higher up's. They will deny it until the day after election and fire the poor person who leaked their secret!!!!!

Lee

As I said in my first post.....

I have known Joe for many years,and consider him a very close personal friend. I don't really think that anyone was really "blasting" Joe (except for the "I just thought they all shot compounds" remark which to be fair was probly in jest) I simply said that if Joe said it,you can lay money on it. Having known Joe for as long as I have I can assure you that he is not one to spread idle gossip,or rumors. If He didn't know the neighbor very well and was unsure of how credible the statement was he never would have posted it. If Joe said that the neighbor called the region 3 office and they confirmed it,then he must have believed what his neighbor said. 3 years ago up in Middleburg N.Y. a lion drug a small button buck down through the field next to my father's house,accrossed the road and into the field behind his neighbor's house.The neighbor opted to grab his camera instead of his rifle,and took several blurry pictues of an animal that was obviously bigger than the deer and had a long thin tail before it got spooked and left the carcass.He called the local DEC Officer and was told that he couldn't make it out that night,but would be there in the morning.The DEC Officer came out about 10am the next morning. The carcass was gone but there was about a 10 foot area of matted grass and blood and deer hair,with a bloody drag trail leading off to the woods.(which the DEC Officer would not follow) After showing the picture around to the surrounding neighbors,they all agreed that it was a lion. However when the DEC Officer was shown the picture,while he agreed that it "looked" like a lion,his official report would state that it was "only a bobcat with a rabbit" My father's neighbor then told the officer that "next time,I'll grab my rifle instead of my camera and then we will be sure" To which the DEC Officer promptly responded "You know, If you do that you WILL be arrested"

If the local DEC Office told Joe's neighbor that a lion was released it very well could have been a "slip of the lip" but as there become more and more sightings,road kills,trail cam pictures and such I'm sure it's only a matter of time untill the DEC will have to cofirm that mountain lions are indeed in N.Y. State. They would look awfully stupid if one ended up killing someones kid in the back yard and dragging it into the woods,and the public found out they were keeping it a "secret"!!!!!

we had (Nova scotia) same pics and scam article here a few months ago

So that's where my cats went!  Finally the DEC did me a favor.  Too bad for my wife.   :notworthy:   And who says they don't know what they're doing?

Charlie

I'm with you Cyclic Rivers. Greetings from Coxsackie.

This is one interesting topic.  I'm from upstate NY originally and know there have been lions around there a long time.  Now I live in WA where we're going through thesame thing with wolves.  I have a very healthy skepticism of governement agencies, but one thing i don't believe thay do is covertly release predators.  It is simply not legal, the amount of beuracratic wrangling required to accomplish it would be immense, and about the only agency that could accomplish it is the cia.  Just have to throw in my personal opinion as well that we should be glad to have the big predators around for alot of reasons, but fundamentally because when we tame the wildness we all miss out on at least one aspect of what we go searching for with our bows and arrows.  Incidentally the way to improve hunting opprtunities is habitat improvement, not predator removal.

The stories are the same all over the country.
The replies from the individual state game agencies are also the same.

Ever try to remove an eight pound house cat out of a leghold trap? I couldn`t even IMAGINE, going one on one, with a hungry, or angry, 150 lb cougar.

If they are rarely seen in areas with a high population, imagine how easily they could remain largley undetected in areas where there are few.

Just as with coyotes, a cat that is bold enough to be seen near homes in daylight is a bad cat.

If someone shoots a cougar because of fear, and is afraid to publicize it, are you and I going to find out? If you or I see a cougar slinking around our dwelling(s) are we going to feel fear. I KNOW what I would do.

I wonder how many people KNOW there are cougars around?

DHR. I like your attitude. I too believe the large predators deserve or respect and a place in our world. I am willing to share my hunting opportunities with them. Some of my most memorable hunts. Have been encounters with our competitors in the field. I don't understand why so many feel compelled to shoot them.

Never been To New York, but from the pictures I see I'd say it look like pretty good lion habitat.
I've been hunting lions for a lot of years now. I'd celibrate if I was you guys, They are Mt lions not the boggy man. Push for a season and learn to hunt them.

Best big gamme animal in the world in my opinion. Fine eatin too.