Hunting with the boy. He takes and apparently misses a shot at a deer. While following up, just to make sure, James asks:
Quote"How do we know deer aren't intelligent, Dad?"
I think he was really asking how we know they aren't sentient, if he knew that word.
What's your answer? I'll give you mine in a bit. Here's a hint though, I find it difficult to give a satisfactory one.
James is 12 years old and has been helping me butcher deer for years and been involved with 2 kills.
Based on the quote on the bottom of your page I would say this...
Deer ARE intelligent. But just like everything else God has given a purpose. He created us for a purpose and he did the same for deer, fish and other animals. Plants and animals were put here for us to enjoy and survive off of. We have the responsibility to, just like all the gifts God gives, care for and show no disrespect to those gifts though. By taking the deer and using his body for nourishment and other things we help them fulfill their purpose in life and they ours.
I do indeed believe thay are sentient AND have a purpose. Yes they are here in part as food for us, and yes we have a duty to the Creator to participate in creation and the cycles of life. It is also important for me to realize that the creatures I hunt are to some degree aware, and that with reverence and prayerful gratitude not only to God but to THEM, I can help these creatures pass on with less fear and hopefully even at peace.
I do not believe deer are "sentient" I beleive they work purely on instinct. To me "sentient" means the ability to tell right from wrong, the ability to feel sadness, or regret. I do not believe that animals possess any of these traits. That being said ,they still deserve respect and the best attempt at a clean kill free of undue suffering.
Intelligence is relative. Even the most intelligent creatures, will only just do as they're supposed to. Feed and mate.
QuoteOriginally posted by fireball31:
I do not believe deer are "sentient" I beleive they work purely on instinct. To me "sentient" means the ability to tell right from wrong, the ability to feel sadness, or regret. I do not believe that animals possess any of these traits. That being said ,they still deserve respect and the best attempt at a clean kill free of undue suffering.
I agree, but only to a certain extent. I believe that animals which are more highly developed than others(the primates and a few others) can sense sadness, like maybe from the loss of an offspring.
All the dumb animals are extinct, deer are not stupid. I know if they are not hunted some would starve and I don't think that would be a good way to die.
"I believe that animals which are more highly developed than others(the primates and a few others) can sense sadness, like maybe from the loss of an offspring."
I agree completely ishootforthrills, and I actually thought about making that distinction.
These are the questions that roll around in my empty noggin once the chores are done and there is quiet time for pondering. I am intrigued by the question, as I was at a thread that was evidently pulled about the different ways that we regard pets and game animals.
I am heartened by the answers that I see here, and impressed at the difference in attitude between this forum and the hunting shows in popular culture. Would you ever see this addressed on a Buckmasters episode? :saywhat: :campfire:
Man good thread, one I think about alot. Who decides what intellegence is? What is a good IQ test. If someone scores high on a IQ test how long would he or she last if dropped in the jungles of a tropical rain forest? The folks there seem to do real good but bet they wouldn't last long in down town NY!
Well said Killdeer! My hats off to you. :thumbsup: :campfire:
my job is to kill(predator)eat
deers job is to get fat and avoid me(pray)
neither one of us have much more to offer in way of emotion.
this opinion is my own
sen⋅tient
/ˈsɛnʃənt/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [sen-shuhnt] Show IPA
–adjective
1. having the power of perception by the senses; conscious.
2. characterized by sensation and consciousness.
–noun
3. a person or thing that is sentient.
4. Archaic. the conscious mind.
I would say that deer posses "the power of perception by the senses" and have "sensations" but I do not believe they are "conscious" of these things or have "the conscious mind".
con⋅scious
/ˈkɒnʃəs/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [kon-shuhs] Show IPA
–adjective
1. aware of one's own existence, sensations, thoughts, surroundings, etc
Only we posses the ego concept of "self". Only man is blessed (or is it cursed) with free will. All other living creatures follow the will of their Creator naturally.
This is thought provoking...and how I WISH there was a hunting show that did have a Q&A like this Killdeer.
I'd have to say that since we can't ask them we really can't know...but be can know their maker and believe what He tells us. He tells they are for us to have control over, for us to take care of, for us to eat, and most importantly so we can marvel at His design and craftsmanship and be thankful/honored He entrusts them to us.
it really depends on how you define intelligent or to what you are comparing it because a deer isnt as intelligent as a human in the fact that it lacks reasoning an the ability to problem solve and use tools but in their own enviroment they are geniouses because they are able to survive like nothing in an area that we might not be able to
I know deer are sentient. I have seen them grieve over the loss of young; and then move on. They move on pretty fast; but that does not mean they are not aware of life and death; and their own reality.
I participated in some deer necropsy's at the Edwin SW George reserve in Michigan; and I was there when bird was found in the 'stomach' of a deer. Later in my life I saw deer stalking and then catching birds; and playing with them like a cat does. Deer have their own reality. Elk and bears and lions all have their own realities.
We live in our own reality; and step back and look at that reality; and you will question ~our~ intelligence.
I am a predator; an omnivore; an eater of meat. I do not apologize for that.
I think NOT hunting deer is inappropriate. Deer are creatures that know that they are in danger from other animals. WE are one of those animals.
To take away the right of the deer to be a deer- with all the ramifications of it; we step outside the rules of nature- and ultimately the deer will suffer because of it. Overpopulation in deer: leads to disease and starvation and death.
They are aware; they are intelligent; they can be unaware; and so can we.
My grandson sat in a stand at my bear bait this spring; and a bear came in several times. He was unable to give flight to an arrow when it was there- but his comment when he came back from that nights hunt was very important to me and to him.
He said: "Poppa- until tonight I had no idea that there was anything in the woods that was that smart; that was so intelligent".
He has yet to take on an old doe or an aged buck or elk.
There is nothing wrong with our role as a predator; and there is nothing wrong with the completion of that in our hunting.
I honor the things I take with my bow. Its one of the big reasons I use a traditional bow. I honor my role; and their role; and our interaction.
I do think we owe the animal and ourselves the memory of a quick kill. The arrow normally lets the animal run off; as it always has run from danger. With or without us hunting them; deer will eventually die. Nothing lives forever.
If a person does not have the genetics to desire to hunt; then they should not hunt. If they do not respect the animals they hunt; then they should not hunt.
But to follow our genetic codes that are activated by hunting is no more wrong than for a cat to want to chase a mouse; or a hawk to desire to hunt and kill.
The one rule of life; is that something has to die: so you can live.
My Dog is smarter than a lot of people I know. And she knows it.
My 10 year old daughter has many friends that come through my man cave on a weekly basis and on two occasions I've heard them question her about why her Daddy has killed these beautiful animals and hung them on the wall. My ear still hurts from pressing it against the wall. In both cases she has relayed to them (a learned response) that all animals were created for our benefit. She then goes into telling them that by displaying them that is a sign of respect for the animals life.
I respect the animals that I take, for whatever reason.
I like to think I hunt only to supplement my diet-or out of necessity-like killing the coyotes that would bring down some of the younger calves.
God created animals AND men. He intendend for us to use them in stewardship how we see fit. I do think there is a point where-even with hunting-taking an animals life can be wasteful. Is this killing or murder? I pray and meditate on tough issues like this, and ususally come out with an answer.
But as far a being setient-or whatever-really makes no differerence. It is the circle of life- many a human has been killed by beasts-with little regard by the beast for the humans capacity to reason or love.
I do believe that not a single life is taken without the Almighty God of Abraham knowing- and that is what I take into account when I breathe in steadily-draw back-and release............
Farmer
What Shaun said. :thumbsup:
"Attribution of human motivation, characteristics, or behavior to inanimate objects or animals" AKA Anthropormorphism can be a slippery slope to Walt Disney's Bambi-ism.
I think whitetails got better sense than to sit and look at TV, even if they did have thumbs to work the remote. And they sure as heck know they've been shot, or shot at, and what that means. I don't think they begrudge us for hunting them any more than the coyote hates the rabbit. Sometimes things just are as they are, and justification is not necessary. Wild things understand better than we do, obviously, their role in the food chain, and ours. The law of nature works beautifully, but only because it is brutal, unrelenting and unforgiving. Else we would have all, both man and beast, long since perished from this earth. But there is also beauty inherent in that perseverance. Which is why whitetails got better sense than to sit and look at TV.
Hope you and yours are well John. I remember fondly those old days (@ U of L?) when you were posting yer doins and seeing them chillin still in PJs with sock feet. Time is sure slippin away from us.
I thank you all for your thoughtful responses. I suppose I should elaborate. I have always taught my children that we should respect all animals and nature in general. But, deer are not people. They don't have emotions and families like us. They aren't thinking creatures in the way that humans are. They do not grieve like we do. And while I do believe in a sentience scale, the gap between non-humans and humans is immense. Think of it like this, bugs are a .01 on the scale, deer are a .2, pachyderms and porpoises are a 1, some primates are a 2 and humans are a 100.
Here's my incomplete and inadequate answer I gave to James.
QuoteThere are a lot of ways to judge intelligence; complicated language, pre-planning, tool use, emotional attachment, and family bonds being among them. Deer only exhibit primitive versions of all of these. They are a food animal. God has a plan in His creation. Deer are here as a beautiful part of the animal kingdom but also as food.
I guess that was enough for him to chew on for now. He isn't questioning the place deer hold at all. He is more pumped about getting a solo deer than ever. He's just like the rest of us, trying to figure where we fall in relation to it all. The progression is heartening for a father :)
James and I talked a lot about it last night as I was putting him to bed. It's so fun to watch him work it out without giving him the answers like when he was younger. There is a sentience scale within humans as well; as we age, as we learn, as we think. And we never get to 100 on that one.
Good thoughts, John.
Love, hate, fear of death- all exclusively human emotions. Only humans can speculate on the awareness of the other animals.
To me it's clear that deer are both sentient and intelligent. As an easy example, I frequently see them reacting to my dogs. When the dogs are inside the fence, the deer look at them as if they were saying "Bark all you want; that fence won't let you do anything I care about." When we're outside the fence, although the dogs are leashed, the same deer react very differently. A large canine not contained by a fence is an occasion to depart the premises post haste. On pure instinct they'd run in either case.
It's also becoming apparent that in pressured areas, they're starting to look for trouble from above, even in areas where there haven't been any cougars/pumas/panthers/mountain lions for decades. That suggests that they are learning the role of tree stands in their lives.
To me, that doesn't mean that they should not be hunted as food. In the final sense, we're all food for something. Our own reign at the top of the food chain is also temporary. At some point we die and the remains become food, if only for bacteria and microbes. Nobody stays at the top of the food chain forever.
The fact that they are sentient and intelligent, and downright tasty, means to me that we have an obligation to hunt them ethically and respectfully, to kill as cleanly as we can, to practice shooting diligently to assure that outcome and to take the food they provide respectfully and gratefully. We are all part of the great circle of life and should try, knowing that none of us will ever be perfect, to conduct ourselves with respect to other life forms accordingly.
I think "THINK", not.I believe they are a highly tuned or evolved survival machine honed by instincts that are turned on 27-7.But man, their instincts are impressive.Thats what I tell my boys.My 9 year old has asked me the same question many times about everything from snakes, sheepshead, mantises and everything else we have discoverd together.I dont tell him that thats how ot is but I tell him that thats what I believe.Sure makes life interesting though when you search for answers to questions like this.
I like everyones responses.
Brian good post.
Killdeer, your remarks put me in mind of the "wise one" speaking at council fire.
VAFarmer I especially like your last comment.
Good thread John.
Bona :campfire:
I have a very deep respect for all of Gods creatures. I think they are here for us to take care of and to eat. However, respect for life must always be thought about.
Here is a little something I think about from time to time, even though it took place 17 years ago.
My father and I were squirrel hunting. I was not hunting with a bow at the time, but you will get the picture. I killed a squirrel that day, that was way to close for the weapon I was using.
Anyway when we got back to the house and started skinning my father picked up that squirrel and new immediately what I had done.
He told me there is no use in even skinning this there is nothing to him. He said, to me you need to see, so you will learn. So we slit the back and pulled down the hide, and I was educated that day, the hard way.
After seeing what I had done, I was very upset with myself.
I remember thinking I can't eat this animal, so I wasted his life.
That is how I look at hunting today and how I feel about the animals I hunt. I never want to take a life of one of Gods creature unless it has a purpose for being taken.
Also wanted to say that purpose could be also, for protecting other creatures. Take the wolf for example. He needs to be harvested to protect other animals.
However, I would not even think about eating one of those guys.
Good thought provoking responses, just what I would expect here. I don't believe that animals have human emotions due to the fact that we have a "self" or "soul" where we can step back and observe ourself and compare our present situation to previous ones and say, this is the worst I have ever felt. Animals only know pain or no pain, hunger or no hunger. I do believe in treating animals with respect due to the fact that they are a gift from God and therefore do not belong to us.
I believe a large part of what animals do is pure instinct. I also believe they have the ability to "think".
Male bears eat cubs if given the opportunity.
Does he "think" about what he is doing?
A wounded deer is often abused by healthy deer.
Do they "think" as they do this?
Have you ever had a deer suddenly look up into your eyes, as you are perched high in a treestand, with no apparent reason to know that you are there, or know EXACTLY where you are?
I am in awe at the joy animals add to my life.
From the Beta fish in the glass bowl on the back of my toilet, to the dog(s) on my couch, and the chickens in the coup in my back yard.
My heart aches for the deer, on winters nights when it`s so cold that it hurts to breathe, and my heart aches when I have something I must do instead of getting the chance to HUNT them.
There is much more to learn.
I have sat at the fire ring, pondering and discussing just this theme. We smoked the Pipe and passed it from the elder to the youngest.
This has been discussed for eons...since time first wakened.
To hunt has been part of man's heritage since ancient times. Hunt to feed himself and kin.
If each will examine their deepest soul, they shall find that urge, nay, need to hunt. Without it we become herd animals.
We are predators, not prey. Without this deep seated ability and will, we turn from predator to prey. Just where modern society wishes us to be.
I will stay far away from the herd. Instead I will hunt it, until my last campfire dims to cold ashes.
I agree with Killdeer. This is something to take to heart and ponder, deeply.
May your meat pole be full and the wind to your face. Good hunting my friends.
Johnny/JAG
JAG :thumbsup: :campfire: :archer: