I was watching a "hunting" show today i use that term loosely . but anyways they were hunting some midwest state i think , the host said he had to take a doe so that he could earn a buck tag. once he shot a doe he then received his tag for a buck.does anyone know what the idea behind that thinking is? I would guess that its the way they control the doe population ?
I have heard of this in Wisconsin. My guess would be exactly what you said.....kill a doe before you even can think about shooting a buck. Killing bucks doesn't "control" popluation. Not sure if they (or anyone else) still does this now...it might have changed.
Yes, that management idea is fron Wisconsin. It's now on hold for this season, due to its unpopularity among the deerhunters. But it seems that every year, our management tries a new tactic. You can have it if you'd like, I don't think anyone here would mind.
Just came in after 4 hours in an earn a buck zone here in N.J. I even made history. The first Sunday you could hunt in N.J. Our early season in the zones that are open are earn a buck. You have to shoot a doe first then you can take a buck. Yes it is in fact to thin the doe population.
That was a HUGE fight with earn-a-buck in our state! I did not care for it personally...I heard we might get it back next year.
Personally I think it's a great idea for game management , where necessary. after all, we as hunters should be concerned with the overall health of the deer herd not just putting big horns on the wall.
it's our responsibility to ensure that a healthy herd is there so that our children and their children can enjoy the hunt as we have. Although, our this generation seems more concerned with "now"
WI started using it in the CWD Zones back in 2002, where it is still in effect. Certain public lands in IL were EAB back in the early 90's. I understand NJ has had EAB for well over a decade as well.
i don't think it's a bad idea. i read some where that if 1 doe is shot it eliminates some like 70 or so deer that are reproduced in like a 7 or 8 year span. i kike shootin does just as much as bucks so makes me no diff i guess
Its here in Va ... Sort of... if you shoot a buck you cant shoot another until you shoot a doe. Its a good thing bc most bowhunters dont shoot enough does. I hunt an area where they give you 2 doe tags a day. Its great to pack meat for the freezer.
I agree, I think it's a great idea where there are more deer than there ought to be. If you hunt a zone like that, you should realize the problems that deer present for people and the environment. Controlling the population starts with killing does, and horn hunters do not help in the least.
Killing bucks does not help in controlling the population, and disrupts the doe/buck ratio. Too great an imbalance of does to bucks prolongs the breeding season and causes does to cycle over and over, so some are not bred until February. Late fawns are weak and will die over the winter, and the bucks will be worn to a frazzle and not be able to recover after the breeding season, because the breeding season will last until the worst of the year for finding food. Many will die from starvation.
Killing a doe is a kindness, and is completely 180 degrees from the mindset of the 50's and earlier, when the herds needed building, and the game departments encouraged the linking of taking stately horns with the image of manly competence. Reason, and a love of all things wild should be our guide here, not ego.
Killdeer
Heres the deal as I see it. If your on public land your screwed. Alot of the public that I hunted is pretty well shot to h*ll. Earn a buck is not just bowhunting but gun as well. If you have a couple of fellows on personal land well you are not going to get the kill that the so called DNR in wis. wants as the total is taken state wide and somewhat grouped together. Its a system of managment and like any system some know how to use it. Wisconsin takes all land public and personal as one..you may or may not have the population that they say..public next to nill and personal land alot...but it is all counted as one...get my drift? If ya like that take a look at what they are trying to push through 2010 at the Wisconsin Bowsite..you people that think this is a great idea think again,its a slippery slope and can lead to bad things.
The earn a buck concept is nothing new. Here in NJ we have had some form of it going on close to ten years. NJ is a postage stamp compared to most states yet we have over 50 some odd zones.Some are three points on one side, some are unlimited does.( the unlimited doe bag limit during the January gun season has really knocked the numbers down) The state does a good job at management but does not have the support of a lot of hunters. During the first few years of the earn a buck program state workers were sent out to spray paint road kills orange because some were checking them in as their doe to recieve the buck tag. Its a shame that the shoot bucks only mentality is fostered by the weekly television shows that promote "Horn Porn" where shooting something with large horns is the only reason you go afield.( for someone getting into the sport without a mentor, mass media is the only learning tool) This past summer NJ passed the Sunday hunting bill that allows bow hunting on WMA's and private land but along with it came the inclusion of crossbows. Things should get very interesting on the state grounds this year.
Earn a buck is far and away the best way to bring buck to doe ratios back in line. Point restrictions are a silly way to address the problem, and leave you with genetically inferior bucks doign all the breeding.
I wish more DNR's had the guts to implement this management tool.
Its a great tool if its used right..If you have a couple of people on a couple of hundred acres of land what good is it going to do..mean while the public land gets pounded...The winters and liberal Antlerless seasons have taken their toll in alot of areas. Alot of the antlerless are taken from public..even by land owners. I could see a year or two of anterless only seasons in certain areas to get the numbers down or maybe have our DNR take a more hands on approach.
If your buck to doe ratio is out of whack, you have to kill does. It's that simple. Public or private ground isn't a consideration.
Killing bucks achieves nothing as far as management goes.
IMO Killdeer & Jeff are right on the money in all respects on this issue.
Larry
I had the pleasrue of hunting for 10 yrs as a guest on a ranch near Mineral Wells, TX. The rules for me were that I could fill all my doe tags but could not shoot any bucks. I could take a spring and fall turkey and any pig I saw. There was no lease fee for me. Ya think I minded not hunting bucks? Not at all.
Infact I challenge you to take a good 5 or 6 yr old doe. Does don't go crazy during rut anywhere near to the extent that bucks do. A good mature doe in my home hunting range is a tuff hunt. she does not make many mistakes. She has got a whole dang family with her to act as eyes on scouts. she know the manufactor and model number of every tree stand made. she has been hunted from the ground and the trees. spots a pop up at 200 yds. she has walked the same funnels for 5 yrs and knows then real well. she knows a lot more about staying alive than we do deer hunting.
rusty
One year I was in hunting stands 75 times to fill four doe tags with does over 2 yrs old. that was just to see if I could do it. oldest doe I took was 3&1/2 yrs old. Old Gamma is just hard to get a shot at on my home range.
rusty
You can get the doe population in check by giving doe tags for free.But its all about money!
It is all about money. The same Does tags that were $2 last year are $12 this year. The DNR are not that concerened with Buck/Doe ratios as much as Deer/Car crash ratios..It(DNR) has become more politically motivated than anything else.
Great post trashwood!
too bad the score books are based on horns, not how wiley a doe is.
Show me a doe that successfully raises young six years running, it will be the hardest critter to kill in the woods imo!
Personally I would rather see a kid with a bow in his hands ventilating does. Than a bad bow tie with a doe it it's grill.
In our state MORE deer are killed by automobile than by hunters.
QuoteYou can get the doe population in check by giving doe tags for free.
Not around here. For whatever reason, teh general population thinks it's "unmanly" to shoot does. A friend and I went to one of the local processing plants the third day of rifle season last year to see what processing a couple deer for a local food pantry would cost us. While we were there, the owner offered to show us the take for the weekend. He had a reefer trailer pulled in behind the building with 71 deer hanging in it. 64 of them were bucks. Eight were what I would call shooters.
Many of our counties have unlimited doe tags for five bucks a toss. They don't sell worth a dang.
This management stuff is complex with all the different areas. You can't make everyone happy. Earn a buck would work great for me. I know some people on properties with limited deer or state land would not like it. Trophy hunters will not like it; I say if you don't shoot a deer to eat it first of all then I don't feel too bad for you, but I don't condemn you for why you hunt either.
Here in southern Michigan we have over the counter private land doe permits. Two a day now over the counter this year. I hunt four counties and it has been a very long time since I couldn't just go get a permit about any time of the season. They have been trying to get the deer count down. I don't see that big a problem with the count, and I don't see as many deer as I used to 20 years ago. I guess that is just me.
So you don't like earn a buck? Well maybe you should do what Michigan has done. We have a late antlerless season, which along with a muzzle loader season all running about non stop after gun season, apparently has done nothing but keep the deer nocturnal all through late archery season with few shot or at least so few we have had to do other things. We now have any weapon youth and private land antlerless season before bow season to try and cut the numbers. A good part of the two weeks before archery season you have guns in the woods including shoot anything youth hunt. I am all for the youth, but my neighbors kids gunning all the best summer pattern bucks down before archer season is a little hard to take sometimes. If you want to kill the does how about a youth doe hunt? No it is much better to have them kill all the bucks.
This year we have X-bows so we can get more people in the woods and shoot all these deer. Now the people who are too weak, too busy and just done care to pull a bow and practice can hunt archery season. I guess getting gun hunters who don't shoot the does now into archer season will fix the overpopulation problem. Ya right. I think an earn a buck would be a much better option to all that.
QuoteOriginally posted by Gottabow:
It is all about money. The same Does tags that were $2 last year are $12 this year. The DNR are not that concerened with Buck/Doe ratios as much as Deer/Car crash ratios..It(DNR) has become more politically motivated than anything else.
Friday afternoon I bought my NR tags for deer and turkey. Herd Reduction Zone (HRZ) antlerless tags are still $2. If yours are now $12, your zone must have changed out of HRZ.
On another note about giving away free doe tags...
WI's CWD zone started in 2002. Hunters can get up to four free tags per day, and I think the only reason they limit it to four is to keep some anti from walking in and taking the entire box. The CWD zone has been unlimited earn-a-buck (can kill as many bucks as you have killed does) every year with the exception of one. I think it was two years ago they dropped EAB and went to unlimited either sex: shoot whatever you like; free tags. If memory serves, hunters in the CWD zone killed fewer antlerless deer as a percentage that season than in any previous year under EAB. The very next season, EAB was back in the CWD zone.
I'm not supporting or opposing EAB, nor criticizing WI's deer management. That would be improper of me as a nonresident. Rather, I'm just trying to share information on this topic, for what it's worth.
Let's face it, in many parts of the country we are still fighting the old stigma that shooting a doe is a blow to your manhood. For many, it's a macho thing.
In Nebraska, I still remember our old Big Game Manager telling me (late 80's/early 90's) they'd never be able to sell antlerless (doe) permits. Well, that was one of many wrongheaded things he said over the years. Nebraska now offers thousands and thousands of antlerless tags per season. I will say though that getting people to shoot does required (and is requiring) a lot of education.
And in some cases, the public darn near has to be forced to kill does by making that the only deer they can kill on certain permits (thus allowing the macho hunter to "save face"). In NE, almost every tag is good for one either-sex and one antlerless deer. I would guess that Earn-A-Buck would be a similar effort to force hunters to help trim populations (when optional programs in place before did not achieve that).
I personally probably would not like it, but only because I've had some fair success on nice bucks early and wouldn't want to bugger things up killing a doe. Plus, almost every season I kill more does than bucks anyway, (last year 2b and 5d) so I'm doing my part.
I know I've already gone way over my two cents, but I'll add one more thing. If I were a landowner farmer, every one of the hunters I let on my land would either kill more does than bucks or it would be his/her last season on the property.
Well said Extrema. I think its hard for people outside of Michigan to understand how rediculous some of the policies we have in place here really are. Buck doe ratios here are so out of wack it isn't funny. I've hunted other states and beleive me the grass really is greener.
Like I said before..I'm not against shooting Does..I've shot plenty. What this earn a buck has done is promote the shooting of everything..it is antlerless not Doe only. In effect it is the killing of anything without antlers..Does,Doe fawns and Buck fawns. People will shoot whatever they need to get the sticker for ther buck. Its very distructive here and has nothing to do with Buck Doe ratios. In Wisconsin anything with less than 3" horns is considered antlerless. I'm for a balanced Deer herd but it promotes a if its brown its down mentality. Its very frustrating.
It is a good idea to reduce the deer herd by ensuring the shooting of does first, but it could have a drawback.
What if a hunter has the theory of "I will shoot any deer that gives me a good shot", but then has to pass a number of bucks because of earn-a-buck. He/she may subsequently never even take a deer which did NOT help the overall goal of reducing the herd.
How many hunters do not get to fill their tag with this theory and actually hurt management?
I know this mentality is exactly what the previous post argued against, but what is wrong with wanting to fill a freezer with any deer that offers a shot. You can't eat antlers and I'm not a trophy hunter. I want the venison. Period.
Just a thought,
Charlie
I hunt WI. every Year. My family has property in the south west part of the state where there is herd reduction not herd eradication although it might as well be. I have hunted there every year since I was 12. I am now 30!
Our Deer management unit was the first to initiate the "earn a buck" program. It was hated immediately by hunters however we shot some very nice bucks in subsequent years. They have continued with the earn a buck program and I have only met a handful of hunters that had to pass on the "buck of a life time" because they were not able to kill a doe yet.
There are few doe road kills laying around these areas. people pick them up for "insurance" although this practice quickly has become illegal. In our area the bucks out numbered the does and as a result we do not kill many deer. Most of the deer we see are basket rack bucks 6-8 pts.
This is because the does have been hit so hard by hunters.
I think earn a buck is a great program that if used right would be a great management tool. The problem in Wisconsin is the DNR severely underestimated Deer populations. This year in many areas they are returning to Buck only tags because they have realized their poor censuses of the past. I think they need to administer a set amount of tags which are first come first served and allow a healthy # of harvests.
For the last 4 or five years we could have shot every single deer we saw and had a tag for it. In fact last year we were allowed 4 deer a day. Irresponsible management and hunting practices have lead to a deer decimation. Not much different than our banking and lending industry. The blame is not only with the DNR but also hunters that shoot because they can. (Irresponsible lending and borrowing) which has created an unsustainable system now leading to a crash. We have found many hunters shoot first and then see if they can legally tag it. Unfortunately we have found many small bucks shot and left to lay. Most likely because of poor identification.
Last year the kill was way down. I talked with 3 registration stations who were down by almost 40% in deer registrations. Every single friend I talked with said their groups did not see many deer. 3 groups ended up not taking any.
I know practices by the WI DNR will never be accepted by all but lately it seems as though their practices have been more budget building rather than responsible herd management. It is frustrating but I think they are getting the picture due to results of their selfishness.
Hopefully they will return to a sustainable system.
I also hope if anyone is still reading this, they do not get discouraged about hunting WI. Our group of 7 saw 5 bucks that were in the 140 class. 2 were shot! I saw 7 deer in 4 days of hunting and shot a wounded nub buck. There are deer there, including some nice bucks. 3 deer were on public property. It is still a great place to hunt if you keep in mind hunting is hunting, there are no guarantees.
Charlie
Oh yeah, sorry
Just a beef. My family and I have been letting little ones go for several years. After they opened the season to as many as you want, either sex our neighbor shot 11 bucks 10 of which he was getting head mounts for. He is a taxidermist, I guess he can do it cost effectively and probably sees some nice bucks. But goes to show you the irresponsibility of hunters. Who in their right mind can eat 11 deer?
-Charlie
I would like to see earn a buck here in Michigan for the combo license. I think it would work great for those who want their 2nd buck tag, which is restricted to 4 points on one side. That way you can take a buck of any size and then a doe, then chase the big boys!! Good balance there.
I beleive it would give more accurate harvest stats. Right now our DNR is guessing based on a few hunters who provide them some info.
Earn a buck makes sense in a Gun season but since archers have such a small impact on the deer population overall, I don't agree with it.
Personally, I'm just as happy to shoot a doe.
If we are truly concerned about controlling the population we should be shooting does AND fawns(since slightly more than half will be does).
Just my opinion.
Not me.....I just want 2. That should get me through the year.
-Charlie