Trad Gang

I got a phone call from my cousin who lives in Movtville Ct. Both he and his wife took 3 pictures of an animal they think may be a wolf. My cousin estimated the animal weighed 100 pounds.And that it was with several others that looked the same.

They e mailed me 3 pictures.When I enlarged them on the computer the pictures were a bit blurry but to me the animal in question looked like a big coyote.

I have seen a coyote on his property several years ago. I have also seen them and killed one here in NJ. But the one I killed on the ground with my bow at 10 yards didn't weigh near 100 pounds.

So has anyone in New England know of wolfs in that area? If it is a coyote what are the game laws regarding shooting them? They do have a small dog that they do put out on a line in the back yard and they are out in the yard very often.To say the leaste they are pretty concerned and are looking for some sound advice.

Thank you

Recurve50 LBS,

I hunted in the Cooperstown, New York area for years and one of the local trappers got a coyote that was 90 pounds! I saw it on the scale with my own eyes or would not have believed it.

We had seen it live when we were spotting deer (private land) and we thought it was a lost black lab(it was black!)

I dont think its the norm, but they do trap them in the 60-70 pound range often.Post a pic so we can get some guys from the west to comment.

Good Luck

I often see large 'yotes downstate. Almost all have been in the 70lb range, look like a large German Shepard. Deer herd in Westchester is booming so food is plentiful.

I live in CT and yes... there are definitely wolves in the state.  They came in the NW corner and have moved their way down and east, just like the moose and bear have.  Though not highly populous in CT, they are here.  Montville is on the eastern side of the state, but has the right habitat for wolves.  In all honesty, without seeing the photo, it is difficult to say whether the dog they saw is a wolf.  It is possible at that size... that said we have BIG coyotes in this state and they are reproducing at rate that DEP allows round the year hunting of coyotes (except a few weeks during opening season for guns).  

Can you post pics?

According to a wildlife biologist I spoke with a few yeears back, all coyote's in the Eastern US are not pure coyote, they are crossed with the red wolf. Accordingly, our coyotes are much larger than what is seen out west. I shot at one last deer season here in Ohio that went about 50-60lbs. Good size canine.

-Charlie

There are some BIG coyotes in the state, but one of the high up state biologists tells me there haven't been any credible wolf sightings.  Mountain lion yes (sightings backed up by tracks).  Populations are on the move though...

Recurve50LBS,
Cant say for sure but it would not surprise me in the least for it to be a wolf.  They can travel great distances without ever being noticed.  I remember a few years ago hearing of a pair that went from the northern midwest and ended up being caught down in Mississippi.  Also people look at me like i am nuts when i tell them but i am positive i saw a wolf while hunting in jersey a few years ago.
He stood as tall as a full grown doe, and had to be 125lbs+ also had the shorter rounder ears and snout unlike a coyote.  
Either way my advice would be to keep the on the leash close and dont leave it out at night

You can't trust state biologists, I have talked to several in past years and none would admit that mountain lions were present in the eastern part of Oklahoma in any numbers. Then a couple of years ago they came out and made a statement: POOOF-there was a stable population in every county. I don't know about the wolf sighting but I do know that wolfs don't look like coyotes. So I would have to look at a picture. Here in Oklahoma coyotes are very small but the eastern subspecies that is present in new jersey gets much bigger.

Thanks for the input folks. Since I am computer stupid I can't post pictures here, but if you pm me with your e mail address I can forward the pictures to you.

It sounds like you guys have some coydogs up there. Coydogs are a big problem (coyotes crossed with dogs). Coyotes never bred with wolfs before, but they definitely do breed with dogs.
A big coyote will go for 30lbs. Dig out some of your old Fur Fish and Game Mags, they talked about that a lot in that mag.

Could be crossed w/dog. If proportionately wiley, they'll make short work of your pet on the leash. Coyotes are primarily pack animals and have no trouble with larger kills. At 100# they'll not have to work hard. We have no coyotes near that size in Texas.

Can you post the pics. Ive seen some big yotes here in California. 100# is big but with a winter coat a yote can look very heavy.

Coydogs, thats interesting, never thought of that.

QuoteOriginally posted by artifaker1:
 Coyotes never bred with wolfs before, but they definitely do breed with dogs.
A big coyote will go for 30lbs.

The first statement is false and DNA research in Canada is proving that, the eastern (nortern) US "coyotes" are not the same coyotes as the western states. The skull needs to be measured and the DNA checked to clarify. Canada is getting set to release some information once the DNA testing is done to show what the Eastern/Northern area has is a wolf subspecies, dubbed the "the small eastern wolf". Mostly coyote markings but small to medium wolf genetics.

Coyotes are the MOST over estimated animal on the earth in my opinion, most claim 50lbs until they hit the scales and show 30-40. Big eastern coyotes can push 40-60lbs, one "coyote" caught in canada weighed in at 75lbs and was proven to be of wolf origin, the DNA test is forecoming.

Coydogs are common, but nature tends to be harsh on that sub species, as the 50/50 females come into heat late summer/early fall so the pups are born in the winter, also the M/F pair will not bond if the male is a dog so the female is left alone to try and raise the pups during the harshest time of the year. So coydogs do happen often but nature weeds them out over time. Sub females will help with the feeding but survival rates are low.

Years of trapping and calling, and research have help me sort of alot of stuff...but there's no clear answer. It will be interesting in the upcoming years to see what DNA test prove and how states manage the coyotes especially is a sub species includes the word "wolf" but the marking show coyote.

So you might have seen a new species or you might have seen a plain jane big eastern coyote. The western ones look like pups compared to ours.

Here's a few pics.

75# "coyote" caught in canada the measurements say "wolf" and I'm sure the DNA will say the same, with coyote markings.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v445/Drewsifer/coywolf.jpg)

notice the difference in head size and shape when it's next to a "big" north/east coyote.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v445/Drewsifer/sidebyside.jpg)

Drew...That big boy's definately not pure coyote.  cool picture.

WOW

and A gray wolf was shot and DNA verified along the Mass-CT border last year.   a farmer had been loosing sheep over a period, and ended up shooting the culprit in the act.

  News story of the event (http://www.masslive.com/news/index.ssf/2008/03/wolfs_appearance_raises_questi.html)  

  USA today story (http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2008-03-04-wolf-sighting_N.htm)  

so in all actuality it could be a wolf.

I live on the boarder of NY and CT and have killed only one 55# coyote the others were 45/50. I was on stand deer hunting and watched 7-8 coyotes comb a section of woods in a line and regroup before going into my neighbors backyard at 5 in the afternoon.

On Easter Sunday a few years back I videoed my lab (95#)playing with a coyote in the backyard. He would chase her out of the yard (eletric fence) then she would chase him back in. When I finally called him in the house the coyote came back in the yard and sat there waiting for him to come out for a good 15 minutes.

THAT is a monster coyote, if it is a coyote.  

We get coydogs (coyote/domestic dog) around here.  If the cross happens to be with a good sized dog such as a German Shepard or something, you can get a pretty big coyote with pretty interesting features.

This has turned in to a very interesting thread.

Drew, that is an AWESOME photo.

Coyote eyes, stuck in the skull of what is OBVIOUSLY of wolf descent.

A fifty pound coyote is HUGE. Although rare they do occur, with even larger ones, and with more frequency.

Personally, I believe the wily coyote is changing
or "evolving" before our very eyes. Wolf blood, or domestic dog, causing the size increase, doesn`t really matter. They are larger, smarter, and more able to adapt than ever before.

I`ve been calling in and shooting coyotes during our nightime hunting season with great success for the past fifteen years. The average weight has increased dramatically, especially in the past five years. The gaunt, shy, small boned,  mouse eaters of decades past are all but gone. There`s a new kid in town.

Cool thread.

Drew great pics and post.  Just wondering,I spoke with a biologist once about the mythical Coydog at a town meeting.  I asked if there was such a thing as I have never seen one with my own eyes yet just about every local in the small town I used to hunt claimed to have.  He told me there is no such animal, and then put forth this challenge to the crowd show me a dead one or a pic.  The crowd was quiet!! He proved his point. I still to his day have never seen a dead on or a pic.  A lot of you guys have more knowledge than myself.  But can anybody produce a pic or something?  I'm not challenging anyone just curious, I would love to see one if they really do exist. I have heard and read some about the red wolf theory. Joe

Drew, good stuff, but that probably isn't a coyote in the pic.
I done some work with archeologists and I've pressed them to investigate the dogs that were with early humans, in order to track the early humans movements. And they tell me that they can't really tell the difference between wolf and dog DNA. Not to the degree that they could prove anything scientifically.
The other thing is that wolfs have a really picky ritual that they go through to breed. If it is a pack, only the alpha pair breed. And they tend to hate coyotes and kill them on site. Breeding between wolfs and coyotes would be unusual to say the least.
But with the way things are so screwed up nowadays anything could be possible although the dog thing is very likely, especially husky's or malamute that already have wolf in them.

I e mailed the pics to a fellow Trad Ganger. Maybe he could post the pics for me. Like I said before I'm very computer stupid.

Wow this did turn into an interesting thread. I'm learning a lot. Thank you

a friend of mine here in IL shot what he thought to be a big coyote. when he got to it he found it to be a wolf. the state wardens told him he could keep it until feds came in to see it. needless to say they took it and the next year in our hunting and trapping regulations digest they devoted a whole page on not shooting a wolf.  they said its dna matched wolves from Minnesota and that it had migrated all the way down to
pike county IL.

It's thought that the Southern red wolf was diluted out of existence from cross-breeding with coyotes. Some years back a remnant population was thought to exist in the Louisiana swamps, but it's likely they're all gone now.

Drew, Now there's a couple very nice back quivers waiting to be made! I made this one this past winter! This was a small eastern female!


(http://i320.photobucket.com/albums/nn339/JDCOWLES69/jan-marchmoretrad200900023.jpg)

go on you say a 100lb coyote I dought it I have seen 55lb coyote up here in alberta but a 100 lb is a cross of some sort mabe Germanshepard ?   :p    

coyotes out here in Wa. are very small..maybe 35# max, but look bigger with all that winter hair. Usually making about 40 knots if you slow to take a look at them, 80 if shot at.

There is a place in South Salem NY that is breeding the RED Wolf soon to be released in the Southwest.  www.nywolf.org (http://www.nywolf.org)

After visiting that sight I could see how they are similiar to the big coyotes we have around here.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coydog

Wow Drew. Great picture. Wolf in that bloodline for sure.

I have never seen a coyote much bigger than 40 pounds. My nieghbor shot a HUGE one a couple years aago, and we wieghed it on his buck scale. 32 pounds if I remember right.

I would love to see a documented 75 pounder. Not doubting anyone, but that would be an amazing thing.

what an interesting thread! I love tradgang! Thanks to everyone contributing.

Eastern North Carolina has a thriving population of Red Wolves. They were introduced many years ago by the US Fish and Wildlife. Farmers are being paid not to shoot the wolves. They are paid so much for each cow killed by the wolves. The Red Wolves weigh around 70 lbs. The locals were quite upset when the gov't first talked about releasing the wolves.

web page (http://www.cowsucklingwolves.com/)  

Coyotes have been found to have high levels of growth hormone; from eating livestock; and the newly discovered habit they have of nursing cows.
It is believed the increases in size of the coyotes are due to the high levels of hormones due to the large quantity of milk they 'steal' from cows.
( see link)

The top photo is a grey "timber" wolf.  The dead dog on the right in the bottom picture is possibly a wolf pup or small female.  The one on the left appears to be a wolf.  Do you have any better pictures?  Looks are decieving.  Wolves come in many colors.  Some reddish or "coyote" colored to coal black.  I've killed "big " coyotes in Western and eastern Nebraska, pushing 50-60 lbs but 100 pounds, no way.  State biologists are usually so full of BS you can't believe a word out of their mouth.  We have always been told that there were not mountain lions in Nebraska but in 2005, Cherry County Chief Deputy Sheriff watched a female cross the highway and collected a hair specimen for DNA.  Guess what, mountain lion.  2006, Guy near Spaulding, Nebraska shoots and kills a confirmed grey wolf while calling coyotes.  Send me better pics to ed_staci@yahoo.com.

QuoteOriginally posted by Don Stokes:
It's thought that the Southern red wolf was diluted out of existence from cross-breeding with coyotes. Some years back a remnant population was thought to exist in the Louisiana swamps, but it's likely they're all gone now.

They were captured and used as   breeding stock. (http://www.fws.gov/redwolf/)  .  They were reintroduced to NC, near Roanoke Island where the Lost Colony was/is.

The reason that the state biologists are so full of BS and state officials always say they don't have species that you know you've seen with your own eyes is all about money.  If they don't admit the species is in the state then they don't have to alot money to manage it.  this is also the reason why there is usually an abundance of a species when it is admitted by the state.

Here in minnesota we have a lot of wolves and coyotes, and up north they commonly trap and shoot what they call "brush wolves" which our DNR biologist have said the confirmed by DNA testing to be a cross between grey wolf and coyote. I shot one a couple of years ago that went a little over 50lbs, there have been several reports of ones around 100. Maybe they are 3/4 wolf, who knows. The DNR hear seems to be OK with taking them if they have coyote markings. Our full grown wolves commonly go over 150 and hav very long legs, so even that 50lber I shot could have walked right under a full grown wolf without having to duck much. Kirk

Here in Hancock county, SE Georgia we have a bunch of coyotes that are dark orange. Some of them almost appear red. People in the area think they bred with a dog of somekind and that coydog theory would seem to back it up. I posted a video on huntingfootage called orange coyote that shows one of the redish coyotes with a smaller, normal colored coyote following it.

I have hunted Coyotes in Texas, California, Tennessee, and So. Dakota and have never killed one over 45 pounds. Coy-dogs are rare, most coyotes eat any dog that they can catch and kill. I am sure that Northern coyotes are larger than in the south and west, like deer they have to be more hardy to survive the harsh winters. i have only killed one wolf while night hunting in central Texas in the late 1970's. If you are in dought about the difference between a Coyote and a Wolf just look at there eyes and a coyote will never raise his tail above his back. Color phase will vary just like I do not look like you. I have never seen a black coyote west of the missippi but I have killed two of them in Tennessee. I hope this helps

First I have saw two black ones in north-east Oklahama the second I missed while bowhunting. Second my brother is a Wildlife Specialist with USDA and is contracted to the state a.k.a. state trapper.  He stopped by my house today and was telling me how that they had been removing a few wolves from packs of coyotes in this eastern Oklahoma.  He said that they where thought to have come from the cute cuddly wolf pups people buy and then when they get 100 pluss lbs and eat a fourty lbs sack of dog food a week, folks forget and leave the gate open, and opps my "pet" ran away.

The Red Wolves in NC were not release on Roanake Island. They were release on the  Alligator River National Wildlife Refuge. The average adult red wolf weighs 45-80 pounds, stands about 26 inches at the shoulder and is about 4 feet long from the tip of the nose to the end of the tail. Originally 4 breeding pairs were released on the Alligator rive National Wildlife Refuge, today there about 100-120 Red Wolves living in Eastern NC. A webiste I was reading from stated that Red wolve eat small animals and rodents, they forgot to mention calves.

(http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g56/huntit/unsorted112.jpg)
Here is a 72# female Ontario Timber wolf. This is average weight 70# -80#. Out of over 100 killed in the past 7yrs the biggest one to date my buddy has taken was 138# male. Every wolf taken is weighed. They take well over 100 yotes a year and biggest one to date is 64#. Average yote being 35 - 40 #. In Ontario we have a very good population of timber wolves. One area of the Province has a solid documented Red Wolf population as well, average red wolf is 45# much smaller than timber wolf.

Drew,
That one in the trap is 100% wolf in my books. That is the most common colour phase here, being followed by silver then black and rarest being all white.

After recently arrowing a wolf I did just a wee bit of research.  The one in the trap is definitely a wolf, one give-away is the yellow eyes.

Wolfs are able to look forward or out the "top" of their head while they are on a scent trail unlike other "dogs".  You can tell that trapped animal can do just that.

I think it semi-random but not surprising that the trapped wolf looks similar in coloration to a coyote.  It really is a common coat coloration in the animal kingdom.

Coyotes have yellow eyes too... Drew posted the most accurate coyote and wolf information I've come across on these posts yet. I studied coyotes in northern NY. Trapped and radio-collared 19 and collected dozens of hunter killed specimens. The heaviest was about 45#. Canids can consume nearly 20% of their body weight in one sitting and I suspect many of the heavier specimens on record had a full belly at the time. Coyotes can and will interbreed with wolves and dogs, most commonly on the fringes of their range where both species might have difficulty finding their own kind for mating. Coydogs are most often the result of a female coyote being bred by a male dog. Male coyotes can only breed during the early winter as they do not produce sperm at other times of the year. Male dogs can breed year round.

Coyotes can and do move great distances. A female I collared in Plattsburgh NY in November 1994 was killed on I-95 near the New Hampshire coast the following spring, over 200 miles straight line distance away. I think of this everytime I hear the DNR blamed for "releasing" coyotes. A dispersing female such as this traversing occupied wolf country could easily be bred by a wolf. Coyotes are more closely related to red wolves than grey wolves and will readily interbreed. Hybridization has been a big issue for the red wolf recovery effort in NE NC. Genetic tests have shown the Algonquin wolf in southern Ontario was likely a red wolf and may have evolved as primarily a deer predator (though they do kill moose) along the Appalachians, thus their smaller size than the Eastern timber or grey wolf. Coyotes expanding from northern Minnesota through southern Ontario likely bred with the Algonquin wolves and gained 10-15 pounds in body weight as well as other physical characteristics by the time they arrived in northern NY and the rest of new England.

I find it ironic, that while natural resource agencies often get blamed for the expansion of the eastern coyote through "covert" introductions, it was in fact hunters (houndsmen mostly) who brought coyotes to the southeastern US for their training pens. Turns out fences are as bad as keeping coyotes inside as they are keeping them out of pastures.

I also find it ironic that the thousands of wildlife professionals that have devoted their lives and careers to ensuring we all have abundant game and non-game wildlife to enjoy are so routinely bashed by weekend warriors who think that a hunting license gives one the same credentials to manage wildlife as the years of academic study, scientific research and practical field experience attained by most wildlife professionals. Oh, and most of us have an equivalent amount of hunting experience as our most vocal critics as well. Sure, there are some incompetent boobs as in any other profession, but on a whole most professional wildlifers went into the field because they love what they do, and people that love what they do generally do a pretty good job. People who've taken the time to educate themselves as Drew has are unfortunately a rarity. Most pass tall tales and wild speculation off as the gospel truth and then criticize those who work a low paying and thankless job to ensure their most vocal critics have game to shoot. Jeeze louise...

I have long believed the "yotes" in the eastern US were really some type of eastern brush wolf.  I have seen western yotes and they are small and grey/black. I have seen others east of the missisippi black/brown and upwards of 60-70# with tall-long-thick bodies. I wish the biologists would come clean with the public on the predator issue.

I saw my first coyote in the wild while bowhunting Central NC this past week. He was a lot bigger than I thought a coyote would be, and was probably 50-60% kinda red in color....I had him within 25 yards and got a good, but quick, look at him as he fast walked through a 30 yard wide opening...Made my day to finally see one....

Late arrival to this thread. I don't know about you but if I walked up on that 75# what ever it is in a trap......a new pair of underwear would be called for!!! Holy smokes.

Super interesting thread to say the least. I don't know a whole lot about either coyotes or wolves etc. but I do know I saw a nice sized yote in a front yard on the way to taking my son to football practice last week. They are everywhere it seems!!

Longbowwally

I am not sure were you live in central NC but the red wolves have been found 2 1/2 hours east of the area that they were originally released. You never know what you saw could have been a red wolf. Just thinking out loud.

recurvericky,
I'm about 3 hours drive west of the Alligator River Wildlife refuge where the red wolves were stocked. I'm like you, that critter had something in him besides coyote...
As a side note, we don't have a resident population of bears in Central NC, but every year we have sightings of bears in this area. The state Wildlife group says its bears from the eastern coastal area traveling through our area - so I don't see why the red wolves couldn't do the same thing.....
Funny thing is, I always said I'd shoot a coyote on sight, and I did reach for my bow when I saw this one but he was out of my shooting lanes to quick for a shot...But, we have more turkeys than ever, more deer than ever, so I'm not sure the coyotes are hurting anything....My hunting philosophy is to not shoot anything you're not going to eat, unless its causing some kind of problem. It was so cool to see that coyote that I'm not sure I'd shoot one at this point in time....

Steve, it was a pleasure to read your post. Well read and well said. I do not mind a nickel of my hunting license fees that go to the biologists who study and monitor the land and animals that I love, nor to the wardens who protect it from those with no respect for it.

I am wondering if there are sources or a single source wherein one could find actual biologists' reports on their wildlife studies and results by state. The official State biologists' statements could probably be dug up through search engines, but those of students at universities and colleges, who are doing grunt work while writing their theses would be interesting and useful as well. Are there other sources which could be of help in our understanding of what is really going on in our back country? Where can we go for reference?

Killdeer

Killdeer,
perhaps it is our own fault as biologists that the public we serve is generally ignorant of our work. When we find time to write, our audience is usually fellow biologists and the resultant literature is, if not incomprehensible to the lay person, downright boring! Many state agencies do have nontechnical magazines. There are dozens of technical journals as well. The Journal of Wildlife Management, Ecology, Journal of Mammology, Conservation Biology are a few. Without a solid understanding of experimental design and statistcs they can be a chore to read. Even for professionals in the field!

QuoteI also find it ironic that the thousands of wildlife professionals that have devoted their lives and careers to ensuring we all have abundant game and non-game wildlife to enjoy are so routinely bashed by weekend warriors who think that a hunting license gives one the same credentials to manage wildlife as the years of academic study, scientific research and practical field experience attained by most wildlife professionals. Oh, and most of us have an equivalent amount of hunting experience as our most vocal critics as well. Sure, there are some incompetent boobs as in any other profession, but on a whole most professional wildlifers went into the field because they love what they do, and people that love what they do generally do a pretty good job. People who've taken the time to educate themselves as Drew has are unfortunately a rarity. Most pass tall tales and wild speculation off as the gospel truth and then criticize those who work a low paying and thankless job to ensure their most vocal critics have game to shoot. Jeeze louise...

Steve, I couldnt have said it better myself. I am glad to hear you speak up. I often hear many things said or written by the public educated (other fields) or not, that make me feel quite frustrated. It often seems that people prefer to believe in Black helicopter conspiracies over scientific data.

Killie, Visit your local library and check out their databases. the often have access to abstracts and if you find an article you want to read they will do an inter-library loan to get it for ya.

I shot a blackish/greyish coyote a couple years ago here, it was running with two grey yotes and another one the was plumb black.I will try and post a pic.

(http://photos-g.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc1/hs237.snc1/8420_1219394772476_1457109241_592462_2134215_s.jpg)  
    (http://photos-f.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc1/hs237.snc1/8420_1219394732475_1457109241_592461_5146088_s.jpg)  
(http://photos-e.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc1/hs237.snc1/8420_1219394692474_1457109241_592460_6276628_s.jpg)
By the way, that is the exit hole, he was quartering to me at about 5 yards.

Thanks for the backup Mickey and killdeer. Feels kind of lonely sometimes...

Nice looking animal Chad. Black coyotes are pretty rare. I've seen red phased, but never black. Color phases are pretty unique to eastern coyotes. Possibly as a result of past interbreeding with dogs or wolves. Western coyotes seem to lack the color morphs.

Steve I'm with ya, thanks for the information and for the work you do.  Chad, nice looking black yote.  never seen anything like it,

Thanks guys, I hadn't seen one like that before either, the one that was really jet black looked more like a dog, wondered if the one I shot was a pup out of her? What do you guys think?

I would say there big coyotes. I have some trail cam shots of dogs you'd swear are wolfs. I figure there just WWE representatives of the coyote world!!