When I shoot Bare shafts its hard for me to hit to even hit the target, much less tell any usefull information from it. Its not like thay all miss the same way, there just all over the place. However I am able to get good flight from a wide range of fletched arrows, which I just watch flight and see where they hit the target(stiff arrows shoot left, weak arrows shoot right). Do you guys think this is a good enough way of tuning? Why can't I shoot a bare shaft? I am shooting a 60# Predator recurve with a 29 inch draw length. I have found that Beman MFX 400 with a fifty grain brass inserts and 125 grain broadhead cut to 31 inches shoot well for me.
Sometimes things to lend themselves to bareshaft tuning. Another method is broadhead tuning. Put a large broadhead on one arrow and target points on the others. Tune just like you would with bareshafts.
Mike
Alex, have you tried a different bow? I have seen bows that just would not shoot a bare shaft straight because of their design. One good name-brand longbow that I remember seemed to be made upside down, with the stiffer limb on top. It would only shoot bare shafts when it was shot upside down. That's a rare case, though.
If you're using the planing method, you might try getting close (within 10 yards) and try the nock left/right up/down method to get you in the ballpark, then try moving back after you get close. Having your nocking point off can really confuse things.
Feathers will correct a LOT of ugly. From 15yds I recently found out that an arrow reacting way too stiff could miss my 2'x2' target, myself!....lol
Put feathers on it, though....and you could at least get close to where you were looking.
After seeing what feathers will compensate for, I have a hard time (MY issue) trusting anything to do with "fine" tuning to fletched arrows.
If you are inconsistent with form,bareshafts will go all over the place.
Alex,
Are you refering to the bare-shaft planing method?
Here is a link breaking the whole thing down:
http://www.acsbows.com/bowtuning.html
I really like the OBJECTIVE nature of this method and use it with great results.
Jim
R H Clark is right on the money with inconsistent form. I see alot of new shooters struggle with bareshaft tuning. A bare shaft will react to the SLIGHTEST change in your form or release. If you are still perfecting or nailing down your form, you are going to have problems bare shafting.
As mentioned above, fletching can straighten up an arrow before you can see any tuning issues. Paper tuning works well and lets you see just what your fletched shafts are doing. Do it close, like 10 feet.
wingnut nailed it!
For me, my ultimate objective is to have my broadheds hitting right with my field points. I have bareshaft tuned for several years but now I prefer to use the broadhead tuning method.
GOOD SHOOTING!
Slufoot
I have been shooting for several years now and I do O.K. I think my arrows are fairly well tuned. But I am always looking to improve.
Do which ever way works for you.To be honest however I don't see how you can hit a target with a fletched shaft and not with a bareshaft unless the spine is way off for the bow.If the spine is right they still should hit in the middle of the target as easily as a fletched one. :confused:
Yes bare shafts are touchy to form issue's very much so but then again so are BH's...
Try the BH's
PS: For some myself included cause I,m stubborn, good form may take several yrs or more esspecially without proper coaching along the way.Then once ya get it your tune will be slighly differnt as well but you'll already know that :bigsmyl:
Good luck
in the link above OL states that fletching is there specifically to correct for errors in 'launching' the arrow. I'm thinkin the same as the guys above....possible form problems. video it and post it up the the shooters forum. it could only help.
I know when I first started trying to tune my first set of carbons (I'd been shoot trad for several years prior) I developed a tendency to shoot-n-peek. trying to watch the flight of the arrow I was totally dropping my bow hand.
Use the link and group shoot bare shaft tune.
If your form is good and your bow is ok you should be able to shoot a good bare shaft. You may get some variation due to form, but you should see a pattern. That is a good bow and cut to center so it should shoot a wide range of shaft spine. I had one and it shot great bare shafts when tuned and with good form.
How far out are you shooting? Don't get to far out if your form is not real good. Get close and work back. From close up you may see something more clearly. If you can't hit the target every time at say 10 yd. and start to see a patter then something is really wrong.
Here is one possible scenario that could result in what you are experiencing. Say your nock set is too low and your arrow is too stiff. You are very close to getting hits on the riser, shelf, and edge of shelf. Now throw in some less than perfect form. One time you hit the shelf, the next the riser, then both kind of, or the edge of the shelf and then maybe you get off a good one with no contact. The bare shaft can kind of go straight, then a riser hit and it goes false weak or about right. Next shot no riser so it looks stiff, but you hit the shelf and the bare shaft goes low........... Bare shafts that are way too stiff can go right and left depending on form. Too low a nock can go more straight or low if it hits the shelf. If they go way high and low you have a problem with form and or the bow, because it is really hard to go under and over a target with a bare shaft from tune issues.
Here is what I would try. Screw on a lot more point weight to make sure you have a weak shaft. Raise the nock point so you are for sure too high. Get that bare shaft shooting weak and low very obviously. With that set-up you just can't get fulse readings from bow contact with anything close to good form. Start to work down on the nock location until you level out reasonably, but still a little low. Then start to back off on the point weight until it in close to the fletched shafts. Now you can watch form and fine tune.
Also make sure you shoot the same exact shaft type, length, and point weight with the bare and fletched shafts. If you mix you will have way too many variables. Don't change until you have a very well established pattern. I like to be able to repeat a pattern of bare shaft flight over a lot of arrows and several days before I make a big change.
I ONLY tune arrows with my broadheads... They get the job done and must fly perfectly. Spend the time to get your setup dialed in exactly. These animals deserve the absolute best we can attain.
John III
From my experience you should be shooting 340's.
Looks like Bill is correct. Now that I am home I ran your info on Stu's spine calculator and it looks like you are way week. Assuming your 60# bow is 60# @ 28", FF string, and this is a Huntersniche Predator bow, you are like 17# under spined. You should be shooting way right if your are right handed. You also have just over 8 gpi.
Bill, xtrema312, I also used the calculator to choose a carbon size and the spine for the 400 is much closer to what my bow would need. I don't know what you guys used for numbers but mine always come close, especially on the older version.
Thanks for all the help!
Alex: The new arrow charts are for compound shooters and in addition the spine is determined on 14" centers and not on 13 that most of us oldtimers are acustomed to. I shoot a 60# DAS recurve that I chose the arrows for by bare shafting. I cut mine at 29", moved up to 250 grains up front this season from 225 and the arrows bare shaft perfectly. I currently shoot with an elevated rest and plunger but when I got the bow I shot it for a season off the shelf so the initial tuning was not with all the adjustable stuff I now use.
I would also add that I was watching the hunting show, The Choice. A fellow on there was shooting a 60# Hoyt recurve and he was shooting the 400's. However, he had his arrows cut very close to his draw length (which stiffens the dynamic spine) and he was using a 100 grain broadhead. You might get the 400's closer to your goal by shortening them and using a light weight head. But I truly believe that you will get much better results with the 340's.
Bill, I was not talking about the arrow charts I was refering to the dynamic spine calculator(sorry, problably did'nt explain well)and the 400 were a little more tunable to my my bow with 50 grain inserts and 125 grain heads. Although 340 would problably do well also. I am thinking my problem may be more in my release. I don't pluck but i tend to just let the string sort of slide from my fingers sometimes. Sometimes i just can't seem to let go cleanly, if you know what I mean.
Using a brass insert will stiffen your arrow, too. The length of the insert is a portion of your arrow that is now NOT flexing. I found this outtthe hard way (having epoxied in my 100gr. brass inserts). 30" 250 with a 225gr tip is fine. Same arrow with a 100gr. brass insert and a 125gr head is too stiff.
If I had ANY advice to give on this....it would be 2 words.....HOT MELT!....lol
(I'll never use epoxy, again!)
Good luck!
Feathers cover up a lot of spine and/or form problems, but when you put your broadheads on you'll find out if it's right or not.
I'm using Muzzy 125 Phantoms and they fly just like field points.
The spine calculator can only be used for a ball park number to start working. I have had stuff tune 5-8 pounds off the calculator numbers and other stuff dead on. 50 gr. brass inserts are the basically the same length as standards, but 100's are longer and make the shaft act shorter in my experience. When I ran your numbers based on the cut to center Predator at 60#@28 with 29" draw and FF string it was like 74# spine. The arrow was like 50 something. Now many things can change that number like silencers, bow quiver, brace height, bow efficiency, form, how hard you grip the bow......
I have the latest version of the calculator. I can run the numbers again tonight. From what I saw last time that extra arrow length was a factor. Cut that off and you would be close enough that other variables could get you tuned. Now BH flight is what really matters in the end. If you BH' fly with the field points at say 25-30 yd. and you are shooting consistent then you should be fine, but you should also be able to shoot a reasonably consistent bare shaft also. Got to love those Phantoms.
31" FMX 400 with 175 point is 57.7# spine. 60# @ 28" predator cut to center, FF string and 29" draw is 74.4#. If you cut that shaft to 29.5", 1/2" more than your draw, and your bow is 60# @ 29" you would have 68.2 arrow and 70.5 bow. That would be real close, and I would work that arrow length down a little at a time to fine tune to you. That is what they calculator says for what it is worth. If your side plate is built out some from center it would make a big difference also. I would not seem like you would be way too stiff so it is hard to explain that your bare shafts go all over with no pattern to their flight.
Beg borrow or what ever get yourself a video camera with a tripod and record your shooting. Bet if you watch closely you'll discover the problem and IF you fix it your shooting will improve along with your bareshaft tuning woes.
With the calculator ypou have to take into acount the thickness of the sideplate material. I am using the velcro sent with the bow which is kind of thick, puts me out to atleast 1/16", possibly 1/8"(hard to tell with the old eye)
Alex
For me I used a wooden match taped on my bow to use as a site just for tunning. I had to start at 15yrd to get good groups with the fletched then once I was consitant paying attention to my form and smooth release. After I was ready I was able to move back. This took me quite a bit of work before I got consistant results. I also made sure my bow was straight up and down not canted.
Terry
Guys be careful with Stu's calculator version 8-9-09. Unless you are using Microsoft Excel.
Some of the other spread sheet programs Open Office.org for example give strange numbers that do not match and can be way off.
if you want to try the Stu's calculator it is available on line for download at
http://www.heilakka.com/stumiller/ along with a pdf instruction sheet.
That is correct, and 1/8" makes a big difference. Are you 60# at 28 or 29? Do you have a Huntersnitche Predator? If it is their standard riser cut and not some custom, they cut them past center and build them out to center with the strike plate material. If I recall correctly mine liked a weaker shaft than the calculator indicated, but more like 5# weak.
I am running my numbers in excel. The numbers I get for my bows are very accurate, but your mileage may vary.