Trad Gang

For another variation, who shoots a 50# bow or less and uses heavy arrows? I'm using a 48# Kota Killum at my draw length. Two sets of Grizzlystik Alaskans. A long 33" set at 640 and a 29" set at 740 grains. They fly great. How about you.

I don't hunt anything that requires an arrow over 500gns no matter what bow weight I shoot.Well except for carp. :)

I shot through a mule deer doe last year with a 48# bow (Kota Prairie Fire) and 625 grain arrows.  The arrow went through diagonally (not on purpose, the deer started out broadside).

I've also shot a whitetail doe with a 45# yew longbow with a 625 grain laminated birch arrow (the broadhead had complete penetration).

I try to get close and the more arched trajectory doesn't bother me, I do like the penetration gains from a heavy arrow flying well.

I'm shooting a homemade longbow with 660ish grain arrows.  5575 GoldTips, with 100 gr brass insert, and 150 Grizzlies with 100 steel adapter.  Shoots quit, hits hard, flies great.  I switched back to lighter arrows, 450 grain, and just didn't like the combo like the heavier arrows.  Faster for sure, but I kill inside 20 so not that critical.  Steve

(http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j87/SOS_321/P1030558.jpg)

My 68", 41# @ 30" Longhorn hybrid longbow likes a 32", 2213 Camo Hunter aluminum arrow that weighs 535 grains.

My 66", 42# @ 30" Blacktail Elite TD recurve shoots a variety of aluminum arrows, but likes a 32", 2215 Camo Hunter aluminum arrow the best that weighs 579 grains.

Energy = mass times velocity squared.  That is why I like speed and penetration more than mass (weight)  I have tried to keep my arrow weight down and my points sharp.  I believe that is just as valuable in traditional bow shooting as it is in firearm or compound shooting.  Those folks mostly go for speed, but it is true there is a 'heavy' contingent in both camps.

Yes, velocity can work to an archer's advantage to hit the bullseye of a target by providing a flat shooting arrow....

HOWEVER

(and this topic has been beaten to death ad nauseum in a couple of different threads here on PowWow - just search for it - as well as being discussed at length in the Ashby articles archived here on the Trad Gang site)

Linear momentum = (mass times velocity) indicating that penetration is directly proportional to both velocity AND mass demonstrating that mass plays a significant role.  

All of these factors are further dependent on a number of other parameters (e.g., arrow shaft diameter, etc.).  

Penetration is not simply about velocity....

I'll take a heavy arrow every time over velocity and practice more to understand the arch in my archery and hone my woodsmanship to be able to get close to game within my effective shooting range.

That is what I teach my children and encourage others to do as well if they go afield with the stick and string!

Shoot straight, Shinken

Here Here Shinken...Well said.  I personally shoot a lightish 55 pound longbow with a Grizz Stick Alaskan 75 grain brass insert, with a 175 grain Abowyer Brown Bear sitting on a 125 grain steel adapter for about 750 grain total weight.  Still shoot plenty acceptable trajectory out to 30 yards for me, and I personally have no intentions, or business, shooting beyond that.  And did I mention how absolutely quiet that setup is?  For me I love it, but by no means do I think everyone needs to shoot this heavy, especially those after whitetail and similar game.  My two cents.
Good luck to all!  :thumbsup:  

Travis

After reading my post above I guess what I was getting at was this...I have great confidence in my setup and I beleive confidence does wonders for ones performance.  If you are "truly" confident in your setup and it doesn't border on the ridiculous then have at it, chances are it will bode well for you.  Shoot strait and make 'em "razor" sharp and you will make meat.

Travis

My 630 grain arrows get 7" of penatration with a 150 grain woodsman into a brand new yellow jacket broadhead target.

I,m shooting 48@30 and using 725 grn arrows . I was shooting 840 grns but dropped down a little. I love them. Drew

if you guys can use these heavy arrows, accurately, more power to you. there is no way i could. i tried some 525gr. arrows out of my 44# hoyt for awhile but the heavy arrow combined with my short draw was devasting! plus i saw no difference penetration wise, my 386 gr. arrow zips right thru deer just like the 525gr. ones.

For me, the heavy arrows are only good for shots inside of 20 yards. From 20 and further, they are just SLOW. Nothing wrong with shooting them if you like, but for me I like arrows from 8-9gpp which is 400-450gr in my case. Much flatter shooting and more accurate from my bow.

This is a long bow I made that in 50-55#@my draw ( getting better form so draw has chanced )
(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y16/mysticguido/000_0125.jpg)

This arrow was just over 680grns
(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y16/mysticguido/000_0126.jpg)

All my shots have been under 20 yards, but I now live in Texas so I might start working on shooting out to 30 yards or more so a lighter arrow would be better.

I tuned some .400 carbons to my 53# Mojo Stik and they ended up about 590 grs.I was shooting for about 650 so I got some .340 spine shafts but had to leave them 2" longer and more point weight.They ended up 709 grs.

They shoot great out to 20 yds and that is my comfort zone right now.At 25 you have to make some allowances but it is do-able.

I also have a 48# Mojo Stik that has bamboo cores and I swear,it seems to hit as hard as the 53#.It is the hardest hitting 48# bow I have ever had in my hands.I have been able to use the same set of arrows in both bows,just by a slight change in side plate thickness.

I wouldn't be afraid to hunt with these 709 gr arrows in the 48# bow.They shoot quiet and penetration has doubled over last year's setup which was a slightly thicker shaft and 510 grs.

That's nothing to sneeze at when you have to hunt with lighter weight bows.

You can see from some of the post we don't all have the same idea of what a"light weight bow" is.A lot are what I would call heavy bows.  ;)    :biglaugh:

I've shot traditional gear for over 20 years and have worked in archer pro shops for around 10 years what I have found for most any bow was the best balance between noise and penitration fell between 8.5 and 9.5 gr per inch.  For most of the set ups we did that seem to offer the best penitration (speed and weight) with noise reduction in the bow noise.  I do think there is a point of to heavey an arrow and have seen it on some of my own set ups but can't tell you what that grains per inch set up was.

Morrison recurve 50# @ 29" 725gr Lam. Birch, Silent and they fly like darts out to about 22 yds. I this set up should work for any thing I may decide to shoot!!! Just out shooting what may be my back up bow. Ron Foley longbow 62" and 47# @ 28 [50# at my draw of 29"] Carbon express 625grs, looks pretty good.

Is this considered a heavy arrow setup:

Beeler longbow: 51# at my draw length of around 27" and Beman 500 MFX Classic with 250 gr. up front for total arrow weight of 555 grains and 21% FOC and 10.88 GPP?

I know it's not extreme but is it still a heavy arrow setup?

"Heavy" is subjective. Some call 9gpp heavy, some don't consider anything less than 12-13gpp heavy.

I've shot with many shooters that ain't got no buisines shooting past 15 yards. And the ones that can are very few at best.  And I only know one. And it ain't me.  

And yes heavy arrows are good for inside of 20 yards.  What in the h@@@ is wrong with shooting less than 20 yards?  I just don't understand the mind set of fellers shooting 48# bows with a 400 grain arrow at game 35 yards away.  I'm sorry but the compound speed freek impression has infected stick shooters and its not the same comparison.

Yall above that shoot light bows with heavy arrows have my vote.  Yall are doing whats responsible and most of all are taking the high road in ethics and woodsmanship.  

What JimB said;  "I wouldn't be afraid to hunt with these 709 gr arrows in the 48# bow"..  this is what its all about.  Heavy arrows are the talk of those like Monty Browning that kill and do it responsibly.  Is Monty stupid and just wants to see if he can win the 'slowest bow in camp' award?  Or is there a reason through experiance that justify that practice?

Ray.........

47# Firefly TD longbow with 565 grain arrows. The bow is quiet, arrow flight is great, and penetration is exceptional.

Claudia

Actually Ray the shooting logs at spitting distances to be responsible mantra is fairly recent for most. Prior to compounds, most hunting bows where more in the 50 and under range with properly spined alum or cedar arrows that would be in the 500 and under gr range. Great numbers of bowhunters prepped for hunting by shooting field archery and where very comfortable at 35 yds.

Steve

SteveB...

Us 'spitting log' shooters should take heed to the target shooters of those days when hunting was not even legal in most places?

And whats wrong with 'spitting distance' if thats what it takes to ethically an responsibly take an animal?  I am not ashamed to say that I am a 'spitting distance' shooter when I'm in the woods.  Hey when the foam is there I'm pretty salty.

Ray............

Ray....Monty hunts Cape Buffalo with the same arrows he hunts deer...his choice, but that doesn't make someone elses choice wrong.  Monty also shoot bows in excess of 85 pounds.

I would hate to have someone think I was using unsatisfactory equipment that has worked for me for five decades.  C'mon guys, archery and bowhunting has been around awhile, and the equipment has been extremely effective.

I will challenge any of you to prove to me that your heavy arrows with lighter weight bows, are better than my 480 grain arrows on my 45 pound Shakespeare.  I've used setups like this since 1965, and more often than not have pass through shots, with only two in that amount of time that didn't get full penetration.  One was a bad shot in the hip, the other straight down from a tree stand.

Most here are arguing with only paper figures to back their claims,  but few have really investigated the point of diminishing returns in regard to arrow weight versus bow weight.  Now I can forgive that easily enough, but for someone to chastise that I'm maybe not be serious, or that I am shooting less than adequate equipment for the job, is a little left of proper in my opinion.  And, to profess what really constitutes a light arrow, is really conjecture as well.  Frankly I don't want anyone shooting a 480 grain arrow, at 175 or more feet per second, at the door of my Silverado with me inside.

Everyone needs to take a breath and look at what they are claiming....all of it is guesstimates based on mathematical equations.  I won't tell anyone that their heavy bows and heavy arrows aren't effective...they are, as long as they are hitting where they are aimed.  But it boggles my mind that someone will state here that equipment that has worked well before they were born, is now somehow unethical or inadequate.  B.S.

QuoteAnd whats wrong with 'spitting distance' if thats what it takes to ethically an responsibly take an animal?  

Nothing at all Ray - if it works for you.
Like George says though, it does not trump or become more "ethical" then what works and has for some time for lots of others. No right or wrong for either as long as it gives the desired results reliably.

Steve

My point is ......ummm....a  Silverado door?  um....  I'm still thinking.

Ray..........

i don't shoot under 50lb but my heavy arrows out of my "just on 50#" at 27" are great. i pick the arrow for the game though. if its thin skinned Fallow deer and goats' etc i'd drop back to 9/10gns per pound.

George . open your mind  it is common  sence that heavy arrows will make the most of the energy of light weight Bows, you are right that 10 gr lb is right on track . 12gr lb and up is a bit better But why not try to shoot as much weight as you can handle  instead of getting defencive about 45 lb draw weight it your choice what weight you shoot read Shinkens post he has the facts right on mabe some of you light weight people should come clean on how many animals are shot and not recovered because of too light a set up  

WOW!

I only shoot 70#, with a  lightweight 740 grs.  thats only 10.5gpp....less than georges measly 10.666 gpp

I used to shoot 82 with a 940gr arrow, a whoppin 11.4

got a pass through on a deer with 47# and a 750 gr stick, though I never shot that bow again (at game), I like heavier weights.  that being said, reading this thread;


some folks just want to be either

A.  Insulted  
or
B. Insulting

there are others though who realize that paradigms, no matter where they are viewed from, are fundamentally flawed by virtue of limited vision.  expanding your field of view by seeing someone else's is our only option for finding firmer ground.
Live and let live, and let those slow arrows sail

Elkbreath,

My math might be off,  but is that 47# setup right at 16 gpp?

I shoot @48 lbs at 27" with 4 bladed "Z"'s and a 600 gr arrow I've thru every deer the past 5 years! Am going to try the new single bevil BH this time...it's hard to improve on what has been workin' for me.

1959 60" Kodiak 48# 590 grain arrow first year hunting with it but it shoots great and hit's hard.

doug77

Gordon, I don't know you well enough to challenge your intent or truthfulness, but it sound's like you are challenging mine.  We can only discuss such matters personally my friend, perhaps over a cup of camp coffee and a stump shoot.  But I can confidently say that my mind is open, and I have "come clean" about any misgivings you may have about what I have used effectively since starting bowhunting in 1965.  :saywhat:

George, your lawyers can can contact my lawyers at their office ; Dowe, Cheatem, and How....

It's all about choices guys.this would be an awfully boring sport if there were only one bow maker,one bow model,one bow weight,one arrow type,one broadhead and we all shot the same,like robots.

I recently got all 3 Masters of the Bare Bow DVD's.I don't know how many amazing archers are on all 3 but it stood out that they all had different bows,arrows and form.They used different aiming techniques,different grips and had different ways of releasing,etc.,etc.,etc.And you know what? They all make it work.

I like hearing about and seeing other's setups and I don't get rattled if someone uses a different setup than me.And I'm not concerned if somebody doesn't like mine.I promise you,there are compound shooters who think I'm incredibly stupid for shooting a traditional bow.Too bad.I love the things and will continue to shoot them.

I'd like to see the day come when we,at least within our ranks,could accept each others choices and not get too wound up about how many bevels on his broadheads or what # number is written on his bow.

We are all individuals and that's how it should be.Any adult who has done this for a few years is fully capable of figuring out what works or doesn't.9 to 10 grains per pound was never a light arrow and no matter how much some experiment with heavier arrows,9 to 10 grains won't become light.

shoot what arrows youre most confident with.... We dont have to explain to each other what is better or worse as far as arrow weight...... but we do owe the game we pursue a well placed, well tuned, sharp broadhead, shot at a distance that the hunter is capable of making. 5 yards is better than 10, 10 is better than 20..and so on...... Don't take a shot you "think" you might be able to make. If you "think" you can make the shot....You're not close enough...

Like George I am from the OLD SCHOOL this is my 52nd bow season I have only owned 1 bow over 50#. I have hunted with bows in the 45# range with 485 gr arrows for all those years with good super sharp broadheads and by picking my shot and picking my spot 20 yards and under with no problems what so ever.... Everyone should hunt with what equipment they feel will do THEM the best job and just enjoy your hunting experience..

George... I did not ever question your intent or truthfullness all I was trying to point out that in less experinced hands a heavy arrow more than 10gr lb is without a dought a better pill! (I meant no disrespect) If you are ever in Alberta canada I would be honored to share a campfire and Coffee with you and discuss such matters (PS call off your lawyers ) your friend Gordon  :notworthy: