Howdy Folks!
I know that we're supposed to use heavy arrows with Extreme FOC and single bevel broadheads but, before you "saw the light", did you ever use an arrow that was too light and not retrieve a deer because of it? Did you ever use a combination of an arrow that was too light (7.5ish gpp) and a 4 bladed arrow but wished you used an Ashby-type set up?
I'm familiar with the ping pong ball vs golf ball analogies, why some people like to have buffalo killin outfits to be on the safe side, and that heavier arrows are quieter.
I'd like to hear from people that made the switch to heavier arrows based on their own expeirences and what happened that made you change your mind.
This season, I'm planning on using 30" CX Maxima 150's with 100 gr. 1" Slick Trick broadheads (4 bladed and not COC) out of my 43# RER LX. Total arrow weight is 350 grains.
I know it's on the light side but I've been trying different $etups all year and this is the best one I've come up with, so I'm going for it. Not only do I feel financially commited now, but I'm confident. I hit my targets hard and deep. I'll bring this thread back up (if I'm lucky enough to get a shot) and let you know how it goes.. good or bad.
Thanks,
QuoteOriginally posted by Boom Stick:
[QB]
I know it's on the light side , so I'm going for it. (if I'm lucky)QB]
I THINK YOUR GOING TO FIND OUT. :scared:
468 gr arrow from ny 50# Tolke Chinook. Missed the target at 48 yds and buried the arrow past the threads of the bullet shape field point into hard easoned lodgepole pine stand it was sitting on (peeled BTW)
More than enoguf zip for any hunting I will be doing. Have never shot heavy arrows. Never been impressed with them but make them all the time for customers who want them. Just stayed away from the fragile "darning needles" and never had a train wreck.
I have shot them with arrows from 350 to over 600gns.The results have always been the same but I use small broadheads on light arrows and big ones on heavy arrows.The Magnus buzzcut would be a much better choice for your 350gn arrow than the slick-trick.Not saying it won't work but it won't work as well.I use the slick tricks on my groundhog,coon arrows to save my Magnus. jmo
most of my arrows i shoot are between 400/430 grains.my hunting setup is 470/480 grain total weight arrow,with a 2 blade head.the heavest arrow i ever hunted with was 520 grains.i have taken,hogs,bear,deer with arrows made from dogwood shoots and stone heads about 25/26" long,with 2 fletch out of a hickory cherokee selfbow back in the day,the indian who was kind enough to take me under his wing never weighted them i'm sure,but he knew they would work if i worked,he just always told me,wait for right moment,then put it were it need to go,never had better advice.what jame's said about the buzzcut. :campfire: :coffee:
QuoteOriginally posted by Boom Stick:
I know that we're supposed to use heavy arrows with Extreme FOC and single bevel broadheads but
Says who?
QuoteOriginally posted by Boom Stick:
Did you ever use a combination of an arrow that was too light (7.5ish gpp) and a 4 bladed arrow but wished you used an Ashby-type set up?
No, and no
Almost sounds like your going to carry out an experiment on live animals. You say you're confident, but to me it doesn't sound like your very confident at all. Commited maybe, but not confident! If you were, I'd think you wouldn't need to hear about others that have tried it.Good or bad....
If everything goes well(we're talking deer right), and you make a good shot, you'll probably be fine.
I'm not an extra heavy, build them indestructible type arrow guy, but if it were me I'd up my arrow weight about 100grs.......
BTW...if things go bad, please refrain from posting it here...Trad Gang really isn't the place for experiments gone bad.
Good Luck
For about the past 8 yrs I have been a vollenteer at the local military base's "deershack" to check in the hunters from their areas and what deer that might have been taken. Of the 100 or so hunters that hunt with bows there are about 6 to 8 of them that constantly hit deer,call in that they are tracking,and bring in nothing. I have observed that these guys are using "target" arrows with a mechanical or ultra small broadhead.Ive had these arrows in my hand and can say that they are the really light ,short ,thin carbons with only a 1 1/2 inch strait vane. When these guys do bring in a deer there is only one hole. My opinion is that an arrow of around 450 gr and at least a 1 1/8 is the minimum that I would ever use hunting. I would hate to shoot any deer and only wound them to die unrecovered and wasted.
"...did you ever use an arrow that was too light and not retrieve a deer because of it?"
I do not grasp something here.
How can one look at cause and effect
when a deer is not recovered?
My first thought here is that you are asking for trouble using a modular type broadhead with the weight you are shooting. In addition, I think that one of the most important aspects of penetration is how straight the arrow is flying (or to put it another way.....your arrow must be perfectly tuned to your bow). I am not a big believer in heavier vs. lighter arrows. What my experience has taught me is that whether you are shooting a light or heavy arrow more FOC seems to make penetration significantly better. My wife shoots 45# and uses four blade heads. She shoots thru bear and deer with the setup. Her arrows weigh 500 grains at 27". That may seem like a heavy arrow but when we were setting up her bow I wanted first to get the best flight she could get with about 200 grains up front. We settled on Beman 500's with 100 grain inserts and 100 grain Phantom heads.
I will say it again, I think your biggest mistake here is not shooting a cut on contact head...and I agree with Guru....if you have bad results it is probably better to keep it to yourself and learn from it.
I would most definately find a diferent BH.
Eric
I agree, it's not advisable to broadcast failures regarding wounded animals but isn't it also wise to have a data base for others to learn from? Must we all make the same mistake over and over because we couldn't learn from others experiences ??
BTW, I understand one of the very best stickbow shooters in the world hunts with arrows that weigh less than 400 grains. To my knowledge this is just deer sized game... BUT, he is one of the very best shooters in the world, grin !!!
I would fuss more about your broadhead choice than the arrow weight. And like Guru, you sound like you really aren't confident at all...on the contrary, you are looking for someone to okay it for you.
Cut on contact is the only kind of broadhead I will use, on 400 grain arrows...or 650 grain arrows. I wouldn't try to skin a rabbit with a modular, punch type head....but I could skin an elk with my Bear Razorhead.
Use some common sense here; you are approaching a line of diminishing returns and want to experiment on a live animal. It's your call. The answer is obvious to me.
I know right now they are the rage, no pun intended, but all the hunting shows show the rage heads and huge entry holes, but almost never any penetration. Seems like they always find the deer even though it looks like only 6" of penetration ??? I will stick with COC and hope for two holes myself. Especially huntin out of a tree I want that second hole low on the offside for an immediate bloodtrail.
Years ago my brother's first bowkill was a straight down shot as the doe was facing him. He made a rookie mistake and shot her right between the shoulderblades as she dropped her head to feed facing him. Full penetration, broadhead stopped by her sternum, so no low second hole. The only way we found her was she ran into a very thick thicket with a solid deer trail going thru it. I knew as hard as she was hit she would stay on the trail. ZERO blood, just followed the worn out trail till we jumped her and she ran 50 more yards and fell over. She lived 1 hr after the straight down 1 lung shot. Lesson learned about wrong shot, light arrow and non COC head. I am convinced, even though he took a bad shot, that had he been shooting another 200grs of arrow, and a COC head we would have at least had two holes and a solid blood trail to follow isntead of relying on instinct and experience with hunting this area before. JMHO
nocams :coffee:
Physics shows a heavy truck is much harder to stop than a light car. To propel the heavy truck the same speed as the car requires more energy. Greater KE comes from the combination of both heavier arrows & bows. At what point do these numbers become irrational or detrimental? Is there an arrow speed at which an animal will consistently jump the string at "x" distance? Wounded animals suffer regardless of setup.
Much is said of heavier arrows. Much is criticized of heavier bows. At what point is a bow/arrow too light? My personal limits may not often coincide with others; however, a well placed shot with razor sharp BH will remove all doubt. The rest is speculation ripe for contradiction.
"How can one look at cause & effect when a deer is not recovered?" Old York nailed it.
Your name is essentially "gun", you're on a traditional site, and your set up is..well, basically a target setup.
Are you a teenager or a lady? I'm not trying to belittle you...Lord knows there are enough people on here telling folks to see "how low can you go" and still kill something.. but your arrow is not going to get you far with anything but a perfect hit, friend.
And as Guru says, you sound as if you are willing to experiment with the life of an animal.
Bad idea. You'll dream about it a lot if it goes badly for you, and I suggest it likely will.
There's no reason to need to go that light for OUR hunting distances of 25 yards or less, typically. You will not get flatter arrow flight unless you are shooting out at target distances, but by using an extra hundred grains of arrow, but what you will undoubtedly get is a quieter, more efficient bow and potentially a marginal hit made more effective by a big improvement in downrange momentum- that's what kills.
Lose the broadhead. I started an urban deer control program in Atlanta using mostly compounders. The group outlawed the use of NON cut on contact broadheads and they were compounders. With your low weight bow and light arrow set up, you are going to learn all about the definitions of skip angle and rib deflection I'm afraid.
I had a big lesson on momentum and penetration when I first started shooting carbons. I just couldn't get over the speed and "straight to the target" zip of light arrows. Going from wood shafts to lightweight carbons was like stepping up the plate with a rifle in my minds eye. Zip, and the arrow was in the target! I was shooting a 53# pronghorn with carbons and a 125 grain wensel head with an aluminum adapter. Total arrow weight was less than 400 grains at best. I had been shooting cedar up to that point and had taken a few deer. Beginners luck I guess.
My first lesson came early in the season when a group walked by my stand at about 15 yards. I picked the last animal in the group and took my shot. Good location right in the boiler room, but with a full 5 inch penetration... I was sick as I watched white flags bound over the hill, one with my most of my arrow sticking out the side. I spent the rest of the day and into the next trying to locate her. She went over a mile and a half before she retired, but I was lucky enough to actually recover this animal. The coyotes had gotten there first, however.
I didn't change my setup, just blamed it on hitting a rib, or bad luck, whatever...
Later that same season, my brother was down as was Charlie Lamb. I had a forky that kept walking by my stand, he did it four times and finally I said to myself if he does it again, I am putting meat in the freezer. The fifth time he walked nearly under my stand. I drew back, and leaned nearly 90 degrees over and took my shot. I had practiced this many times, and felt confident. Location was good, but again I watched the animal bound away with most of my arrow sticking out of it. This one was never recovered. Steep angle and no exit, no blood trail. Pneumothorax and most certainly fatal but no recovery.
Lamb asked me how heavy my setup was after helping me track most of the day unsuccessfully. He suggested I was shooting way too light a setup.
I was really, really dejected and felt like a slob hunter. I didn't hunt the rest of that season. Didn't deserve to..
Next summer I did a lot of research. Worked over some numbers with basic potential and kinetic energy with the physics teacher at the high school I teach at. Upped my setup to 650 grains. Brass insert, steel adapter and the same head. Practiced, practiced, practiced.
The result: Two deer down within sight of my stand. Both complete pass-throughs. I have continued to shoot this setup ever since and have had pass-throughs on all but one animal since.
Bottom line for me: There is NOTHING worse than the feeling of dishonor and dejection that comes from wounding game. I will do everything in my power to keep that from happening again. The two biggest components for me are practice and having a perfectly setup arrow. That means 10 grains per draw weight minimum, bare shaft tuning first, lots and lots of practice, and a clear quartering away shot within my 20 yard comfort range. Any of those factors are missing, and I am taking a picture instead of processing meat.
QuoteI'd like to hear from people that made the switch to heavier arrows based on their own expeirences and what happened that made you change your mind.
I don't think you'll find any on this site with that experience. It's a wacky idea and if you wound an animal with that set up you have to live with it.
Dr. Ashby didnt do all of these studies on arrows and broadheads because he was bored. He did them to figure out how to make the most efficient hunting arrow possible. If i were you i'd stuff a 100gr brass insert in one and buy a pack of 125 stingers see how it flies. A better question to ask is, has anyone with a heavy arrow with high FOC and a COC broadhead ever been disappointed with penetration. jmo
BS,
Sorry, I don't qualify for shooting an animal with a "light" arrow and not recurving the animal. I've been shooting "light" under 8 gpi and all my animals had two holes. BUT I shoot a COC bh build to penetrate. Don't blame non penetration on your light arrow. Your shooting a NON COC with "high shoulders" built to impede penetration.
Bowmania
I've never shot that light of an arrow but I've shot 90% of my animals with 400-450 grain arrows. I do jump up to 550 grain arrows for bigger game. I think if you shoot a little broadhead you would be ok.
Great story Stoney. Takes nads to offer a hard lesson learned in front of folks; BUT, you did learn. Mine is similar. That's why I'm passionate about respect for the animal Number One.
Think old guys just want to preach? Most have unwelcome ghosts in their closet. Anyone might get lucky; but, your setup is too light for any medium sized animal. Easily fixed however with many options.
Sorry, forgot to mention these animals were whitetails. I would not use this set up for elk.
Bowmania
"BTW...if things go bad, please refrain from posting it here...Trad Gang really isn't the place for experiments gone bad."
You got that right...
Boom...I think I have asked several times on here for light setup hunters to post there bad shot results..I have never heard any because they aren't gonna tell ya. The truth is it happens to everyone, I have personally trailed many, many deer shot by other hunters with light setups with terrible results. But you won't hear it here.
"Is there an arrow speed at which an animal will consistently jump the string at "x" distance?"
I would think any speed slower than the speed of sound.
Bow noise is that critical.
I have noticed that whitetails I shoot at in a pressured area tend to duck the arrow at 10-12 yards more than a 20 yard shot. That is with a 650 grain arrow at about 190 fps. Pretty amazing to me. Then I switched to a 994 grain arrow and hit a buck at 20 steps. He didn't hear the bow or move an inch. Through his rib cage and broke his off side leg on the way out.
Just my experience...not any recommendation here.
I agree, I wouldn't go with a Slick Trick out of that setup. Why not the GrizzTrick if you're set on that brand?
Also, is your bow noisy? I don't think my recurve would be quiet with that at all.
I might add, I don't shoot that light out of my compound.
- Heaviest weight you can resposibly shoot accurately.
- 10 gr. per pound min.
- no 3d shoots a month before season. ( getting out of the light arrow playing war mode)
- one arrow practice sessions.
- daily mental practice sessions.
- no alchohol before or during hunting.
- sharpen knife.
If these simple steps are practiced there is sucess headed your way.
Ray......
- no practice beyond maximum distance. Sure, killing elk at 45 yards are fun when their made outa foam.
-
Im no expert, but i think your broadhead choice is questionable.
A coc head may be better.
I think you ought to respect the animal enough to use equiptment that you know will get the job done! I go to the woods knowing that my gear will do the job, the rest is up to me! I shoot a 55 at 28" curve and I won't shoot anything under 650grn my arrows weigh in at 675grn with a COC snuffer! do the animal and yourself a favor up your arrow weight about 100grn and get a good COC bh!! listen to the the trad veterens on here they will lead you in the right directions!! Jason
Questions answered...I think we all agree this is not a good idea....
Although we all might not agree how heavy an arrow is "best", I think we can all agree this set-up is "too light" with a bad BH choice...