I don't venture into the bow sites much anymore but have been more lately as fall is around the corner. I've been outa trad archery in the serious mode anyway for a few years. I still make a couple of bows a year and couple doz. arrows. I'm making some lifestyle changes and trying to get back into the passion I really luv.
But the subject I am addressing about is all of the light weight bows. You can't hardly find a bow 65#@28. All the rage for light weight bows seems to be from the fear of shoulder injury or that the "efficiency" of "modern" trad bows are just fine for what ever game sought.
I'm not saying 45#'s are week individuals but why has the trend gone that direction?
I have a clue. And that clue is the entrance of compounders (modern day) where 'let offs' have been the only understanding of resistance on the bowstring that they can identify with.
Injuries are one thing. But the light bow deal is another that I have a hard time with.
A 45# longbow cannot deliver a 600 grain arrow. Some say a 45#er can meet or exceed performance from a 65# bow with a 600 grain arrow.
There is an element that is not discussed much, and that is 'buck shivers' or whatever you wana call it. I shoot bows that are 60-65# at my draw length. If nerves hit and I draw two inches short then I'm still shooting a 58# bow with a 600 grain arrow and penetraition will not be compromissed if all other things are correct.
A 45#er will be shooting in the high 30#'s and using a 400 grain arrow will possibily never get to the vitals if a bone is hit.
No slam to the light weighters as they will probably enjoy. But I'm curoius what the old timmers like myself have to say?
Thanx yall...............Ray...........
I shot 55-60# bows for some time, now I can't do it any more. I like to shoot every day and higher weights just beat me up to much. I work out at a gym 5 days a week and at 57 am in better shape than most. I still think that my 47-50# bows will do the job as well as any. I also think todays bows, because of design or materials perform a bit better than those of old.If you can shoot 60-65# bows God bless you, I just can't do any more!!!
I've been shooting a 48# bow with 150 carbon Express arrows, 50 grain brass insert and 200 grain head which puts the weight right around 600 grains. They fly perfect. A couple of years ago after shoulder surgery I was shooting a 42# Blacktail, shot a 9 point Wisconsin whitetail that dressed out over 200lbs, shot completely through him. I have noticed that I never short draw my light bows like I would occasional do with my 60+ pound bows.
Years ago a 50lb bow was considered a heavy bow.
Ron. I understand and then again I don't. Your up to the 50 pond area which is not 40 ish and less. And if your hunting deer sized gmae with those weights then I think thats great. Fred Bear built bows promoting 45# and plus. At his age still shooting 60 pound bows before he passed I'm sure was rough. But I think it was because of his ethical beliefs and his opinion of performance. Imagine what his shoulders felt like at 70?
Accuracy with sticks and strings are hard earned and the reputation of such is exploited by the anti's. I had done some research on kill/harvest ratio's and at that time in the mid nineties trad. archery'ers had the best recovery rate compared to gun or compounds. But...Those studies were done before the advent of the ultra-light bow craze of the last several years.
I'm Curious and thats it. Just curious....
Thanx, Yall................Ray.........
Raybow, what goes around, comes around. In the 1960's and a good part of the 70's, the biggest selling bows were 45#'ers. Most folks can shoot them accurately and comfortably, and they will kill as quick as any other bow. Actually it was the compound era that brought the heavy weight mindset, and it has taken another thirty years for people to understand you don't need heavy weights for North American Game.
Now I will take exception with your 2 inches short draw statement. If you short draw a 65 pound bow by two inches, you won't have any more zing than a guy with a 50 pounder drawing it to full length.
In addition, the new low/no stretch strings have given many bows a new life and allow lighter weights to perform superbly.
I have hunted since 1965. I don't know whether that makes me an old timer or not, but I've killed many deer with sub 50 pound bows and most were pass throughs. It's the same old rhetoric. And by the way, the new bows are not much faster than old bows, if at all....it's the new string material that enhances performance more than any one thing.
Maybe, Raybow, people are starting to understand the dynamics of the bow a little better in regard to full draws, power strokes, and struggles to pull heavy bows. That 2" short draw is not uncommon, but it's because one can't handle the bow weight. If you can handle your 65 or 70 pound bows, then go about it with some pride that you can keep yourself in good shooting shape. But take a good look and don't criticize those who choose not to follow your path. Especially, when history indicates yours is not the only way.
Hope you stay healthy and hearty. At 63, I'm very happy with my sub 50 pound bows, and expect a pass through on my next whitetail this year.
In the 60's and 70's most people shot 40 to 50 lb bows. Anything else was considered overkill. If you can put and arrow through a Moose or Elk with 50lb bows and good arrows why go to 70 or eighty. The design and material in the bows being made today deliver speeds equal to the older heavier bows in a lot of cases.
Dan Raney
RaybowTx, I understand where you are coming from. Never the less at 66 yrs old I just don't have the horse power to shoot my 65# bow any longer. I am shooting 45# Border Hex5 H and never shot better than I am shooting now. I wish I had given up the 65# draw yrs ago now.
George and I ain't older, we just got smarter :)
rusty
I started out shooting close to a 60 pound bow and then injured my shoulder due to being over bowed now i like my 45# for everyday use to build my shoulder bck up to a 55 and higher. I will shoot a heavy pound bow again when my shoulders are strong enough. I think alot of the reason people don't shoot heavy weight bows is there aren't nearly as many manuel labor jobs and people sit at desks all day and don't have the physical strength to continually draw that much weight. And the fact that people are to "busy" to practice enough to build the proper strength to shoot a heavyier bow. That's my 2 cents.
"And by the way, the new bows are not much faster than old bows, if at all....it's the new string material that enhances performance more than any one thing."...
sorry but this just isn't true. I have an old howatt in my basement 50@28. with a B50 string and 500 grain arrow, it shoots 160 fps. I have another modern day recurve that shoots the same specs and string 170+. 10 fps is a lot..that can translate to 10lbs of bow weight.
It sure seems like there a lot 40-50 lb bear and pearson bows on the auction sites so somebody must have been shooting them back in the old days.
ya know, I'm not an old timer. I'm at the ripe old age of 35 and also in pretty good shape. I tried the light bow thing and I can't shoot them worth a dang. My Dryad stacks at my 29+ inch draw length to 68lbs. I shot that bow better when I didn't know that but its still one of the best shooting bows I have. I personally cant shoot lighter bows as well as I can heavy ones. I like the string to rip from my fingers when I back tension into it. Sure I can feel it long before I could feel a 45 to 50 lbs bow, but its all about what you shoot better. Maybe when I'm older I will wish that I would have done different, but I think I owe it to the critters I hunt to shoot what I shoot best with as much arrow as I can sling.
Dan
I have to agree with many things that George said in his response. I'm no youngster anymore and can't handle the high poundage.... never could. All my traditional bows are 48-50 lbs. I've always tuned my bows / arrows to achieve the best performance, whether for 3D or hunting and know my limits.
Tradbowyer, you cite one example. There are lots of old bows that will shoot with the new ones. And, I have an old Shakespeare Necedah, that was an average shooter. I put 450+ string on it and it shoots like a bow ten pounds heavier. I've shot hundreds of old bows since the early 1960's, so I think I have a pretty good handle on how a lot of them performed. It's a little egocentric to think we are so much better today.
i'm with george on this one . if you can comfortably shoot higher poundage more power to you , but i just returned from a trip here in Oz where with a 68" 50lb[ 27" ] at my draw 68" Hill style bow with 520 gn tapered cedars and a dacron string i shot and killed three hogs and one goat. all pass through's, no animal travelling over 40 yards.....would they have died any quicker if shot by more poundage bows ? don't think so . and the smallest of these hogs was 64 kgs ...the largest was a boar and he weighed in at over 92kgs.....
shot placement ,good sharp broadheads all the way ....
cheers
ben
Mr. Stout,
"It's a little egocentric to think we are so much better today."
totally agree with you although i don't remember anyone saying we are so much better today and I'm definitely not doubting your expertise on archery I was just stating a fact. Kinda like the old muscle car vs new sport car debate. That being said, There really hasn't been any major breakthroughs in bow making since Fred Bear introduced the mass produced bows using fiberglass. His design has definitely passed the test of time. To have bows shooting 30+ years later is something. We still don't know how these modern design and materials will stand up to time like those older models have.
There is a difference between "need" and "can't." What I mean is that it seems we have now a generation of kids who only exercise their thumbs! I believe the World Health Organization has us listed as the fattest, most out of shape generation/nation on the planet! I don't care what weight bow a man shoots. I do care that Americans are getting fatter and lazier. I do care that we seem to be raising a generation of thumb twiddlers whose idea of exercising is playing video games and text messaging while their Dad's rationalize shooting light bows to deny their shame that they CAN'T shoot heavy bows anymore! (I am excluding from this group those who are injured,aged etc.). I say this only because people have on these type posts made derisive type remarks regarding the "foolishness" of those who shoot heavy bows, etc. I happen to shoot a light bow. 62#s. No need to shoot a heavy bow-Gotta protect those joints. :) But the point stands. :)
I wonder what the little old short guy who shoots 70 lb Morrison's is up to these days...haven't seen him or heard about him lately...
My shoulder injury doesn't keep me from shooting my 57 lb Morrison. If I could afford new limbs I'd go heavier still. Even though Bob say's his lighter limbs flat out fling an arrow I just like using the heaviest I can...and I still can.
It seems to me there were more 45# bows around in the 60's than there are today. Let's face it there were more trad bows around in the 60's than there are today.
In my own experience I dropped down from a couple of 58# high end recurves to 50# R/D's about 4 years ago-both bows shot my 600gn arrows with the same authority.
In the meantime I took a seminar from Rod Jenkins which has extended my draw and improved my release. I have no qualms about bumping up my arrow weight a bit and having plenty of ooomph for Elk with my 50# bows.
I've been bowhunting for 46 years. When I was a kid, the typical hunting bow was 40-45#. A local field archer shot a 60# bow, and everyone thought he was a real he-man.
When I got back into stickbows, I had used a compound for about 10 years. It was in the early 80's, and the shift back to "traditional" was under way. The typical converted archer cut his teeth on a compound, and wanted a bow just as strong. I hooked up with Dan Quillian about then, and his average bow sold was 65#. He blamed it on the compound mystique. When we started making the Superceder arrows, we had to use large diameters with barrel tapers to get the spines that these powerful bows required. We couldn't make enough high-spined shafts, and couldn't sell enough of the lighter spines.
Jump forward to the new century, and it's a totally different picture. When I started selling my remaining shafts last year, I immediately sold out of the 45-60# range. I still have quite a few in the 65-80# range... just not that much demand now. People have finally become educated enough to see that the high poundage is just not necessary for the average archer hunting deer. 45# was plenty in the 60's, and it's plenty now.
I'm shooting 40-60# bows now, instead of the 65-70# bows I shot in the past. Shoulder problems started with the heavy bows, and affected my shooting ability for years. With the lighter bows, I can enjoy archery again. The deer I have killed since scaling back are just as dead.
Just my .02 from a 27 year old guy that JUST started shooting ANY bow. Never shot a compound.
I'm a big guy - 6'4" 240lb with a 30"+ draw.
I shoot a 40-45# bow because I'm drawing over 50# with them.
Maybe people are just larger today on average? I've been shooting for a few months now and have only met two or three people that draw below 28".
Another thought - finger strength. I'm seeing more and more people with desk-type jobs shooting these days. I played college football and was a lineman - my back can handle damn near anything you throw at it, its my fingers that can't handle the high poundage draw weight.
A lot of people in our society never leave their computers throughout the day - that doesn't make for strong fingers.
In comparison - my dad is a Tailor and has been all his life. His fingers are like Rhino-hide and he can pull much heavier.
Just a thought.
I personally think people are just getting smarter myself.They finally came to grips that where you hit something is much more important than what you hit them with.Most will be more accurate with lighter bow weights than with the heavy weights.Pretty simple if you think about in those terms. jmo
I think the less you focus on how much you draw it back to how accurately you draw your bow, it won't matter much if your drawing 60 or 45. Accuracy is not measured at the target but how we accurately reproduce our form. For some that is weight dependant for others it is not.
I agree that most of the mass produced bows in the 50s and 60s clustered around the 45# mark. Folks in fact where smaller then (both height and weightwise) than they are now, but I doubt they were weaker. Most made their living with their hands. Yep. I was around then.
A number of plausible reasons have already been offered for the recent trend toward lighter bows, sedentry lifestyle, a maturing awareness of a bow's lethality, etc. And, there's little doubt that most folks shoot lighter bows more accurately. Otherwise, competitive target shooters would be shooting heavy bows.
I do think, however, that some folks have gone a bit overboard and have an inflated view of the lethality of light bow/arrow combinations on critters bigger than deer.
I'd have to agree with you on that one Orion.
I'm pretty confident that my 45# bow at my draw could kill anything on the continent. That doesn't mean I would feel comfortable shooting a bear, elk, moose, etc with it. It may just be paranoia but bumping up a few more pounds seems like the thing to do for bigger game.
I would want to be in the 60# range for a hunt like that - even if just for that hunt.
I still wouldn't want to shoot heavier than a 45# regularly. I've seen the negative effects on several older friends I know to do so. Too many shoulder surgeries.
Yeah, Ol' Fred could pull a lot of weight - but he was Fred Bear after all. There is a reason he is a legend.
Let's not forget that not all bows perform the same either. Individual bow performance in my mind is critical in a hunting situation.
All I know, and I'm pretty new to this, is that at 45 pounds I can hold full draw for quite some time. It's something I appreciate while waiting for that voice in my head to yell "now!!!" My shooting is much better when I pause before letting go.
Also, a question for George, I have dacron 16 strand on a 45# @ 28 bow. It's modern with glass. What kind of string can I switch to and what sort of performance gain can I expect? PM please.
Curveman, I agree 100 % !
Ray,
Guess I qualify for an old timer. I remember when I SERIOUSLY got into full time archery back in 1962, that most of the bows were indeed in the 40-50 range,
I started with a 42#' er and worked up to a 65#' er. Now, in my 70's, with health problems, I shoot a 40# (at my draw weight) and still kill my deer regularly. I only hunt deer and occassionaly small game, so my 40# is all I need. For bigger game, I too would recommend more weight.
Had a friend back in the late 60's who was the Big 10's 165 lbs wrestling champion who shot 42# and killed some P&Y deer with it and a bear. I'm sure he many more successes after he graduated and I lost contact with him.
Good shooting !
When I stated seriously in Archery in the 60's, I shot heavy bows 80#, shot that weight up until just a few years ago. I can still draw and hold that weight, but I cannot control my shot at that weight anymore. I now shoot 60-65# recurves I also have a 50# recurve. At 58 years young, I shoot better now than I did before and as long as I shoot good and can control my shot at the weight I currently shoot, I will, if I need to drop down a bit I will and no I do not have any shoulder problems from shooting the 80# for many years.
It is all good!
In my opinion. The ol' times were times when archery was a field shooting hobby. It was a time when most believed that bows were inferior and not suitable for resposible hunting and there were no magazine racks that showed animal harvests by trad shooters. In fact trad shooters were it(before machines).
The years of the 45# bows were introductory years for archery enthusiasts not hardcore trad shooters that had developed the insane addiction of shooting stick bows.
A 60# bow would have set on the shelf, because those shooters were mostly hobbie shooters.
The pioneers of this sport didn't lay the foundation for us with 41# bows and history will prove me right in that statement. The pioneers were not stupid and looking for a way to show their manhood by the poudage of bows they shot. They were shooting poundages of bows that they knew by eperiance would get the job done. They had access to the 45# bows and had shoulders like ours. But their choices of bow weight had to have something to do with success or the old hunting articles would have explained that Fred or any of the rest took a 'blank, blank' trophy with a 45# bow. In my experiance of being around shooters of the light weight bows do not have physical limitations of shooting a 55# bow at their draw length. They have the mind set of something that needs less effort to master, which in order to master meens practice and practice and hours and hours at the target.
I have not wanted this topic to be a subject of angery debate or try to offend those that choose a lighter weight bow. I only desire to express an opinion that I believe is correct but can be corrected as well.....Thanx.......Ray.......
All I can say is what happened yesterday is history. What another man did or found necessary is interesting and makes for good reading, conversation, and debate but little else. This is today and I am me ;) . I didn't get into archery to impress or to have a social outlet or to live anothers vision. I just like to be out in the fall with the simplicity and beauty of a "traditional" bow. My set up didn't come from another and it may not work for another but it has sure been good to me. Walk your own path whatever it may be. Legends are cool, being your own man is much more rewarding. Shoot what you can shoot well and do it in a way that respects the game you pursue ... I'll have no quarrel with you over your bow's weight if it gets the job done. JMHO.
I remeber walking into Hoyt Archery in 1979 and telling Anne Hoyt I wanted a 65 lb recurve. She looked at me and said " why in the world would you want a bow that heavy". Anne was a world champion archer and Earl was pretty good also. It took me a long time to realize she was right.
Dan Raney
BTH...
I haven't thought about 'too short' in a long time. What has happened to him? Talking about a man with phyisical ailments but keeps going is something. He would shoot lite in his choice of drink if he could. But he has always gone to the hard stuff (its proven to be destructive). He is deffinately an Icon of trad archery that most today will not ever know. Eccept for those that are hardcore and not into the feelgood society. He's bad medicine...
Suger in the gas tank is still a chukkle ;)
Ray..............
Thanks Champ38!
RaybowTx doesn't have it quite right as far as what we did in archery in the old days. I started as a kid in the mid 50s but didn't get real serious until the mid 60s when I bought a Bear Grizzly. So my motivation to get into organized archery was hunting and target archery was a secondary objective. There were basically two archery disciplines, field archery and hunting. Most of us participated in both. We used target bows in the 35# range for field archery and shot bows in the 45-50# range for hunting. I owned a used '66 Bear Tamerlane target bow and the '67 Grizzly. We were passionate about both disciplines and practiced both at the ranges and backyards. In the 70s growing interest was generated in the hunting competitions and classes so we just shot our hunting bows in competition.
We were definitely not a bunch of hobbyests out for a Sunday archery outing. As far as shooting 45-50# bows goes most available on the shelves were that weight so we sort of took what was availble. Custom bows and bowyers were as scarce as hens teeth.
As far as short drawing a bow when hunting I had the opposite experience. The adrenalin pumps through your system and when you pull you bow back on game the bow felt like a rubber band and I would almost overdraw.
One thing has definitely changed with the advent of "modern traditional archery" - draw length. The 30", 31" and even 32" "natural" draw lenths I read about on archery websites were unheard of in the pre-compound era. Until the advent of aluminum & carbon arrows, I don't think such long draw lengths could even be readily accomodated. In the old days, the tall, broad shouldered guys just learned how to make a 28" or 29" arrow work for them. Today, I even hear some average height guys saying they draw 30" or more.
Reddogge.
I was starting in the '70's days and you may be right. I wouldn't know? I just read how it was. Your right about the intrest in archery from your perspective. Yall weren't hobbiest. Yall were serious and what I am talking about is the mass of people, not the average.
I just want an explanation of why the greats 'Fred' lets start with him. Why didn't he shoot 45-50# bows? Did it have to be because of release problems or was it the 'keeping up with the big boys'?? I don't understand?
Raybow.........
Ray if the average archer was shooting 45 to 50 which was the question in your last post you already have your answer. Fred Bear, Ben Pearson, and Howard Hill are to average archers what Babe Ruth was to average hitters. Not a good comparison. Fred Bear also is quoted as saying a 55 lb bow was more than enough to kill anything in North America. These men also took shots that no one would take today.
Dan
My 45#er put my arrows right through deer, I don't get the shakes on deer, I just get serious when I see one. My new recurve in high tech, but I have killed deer with my 70's Bear Grizzly 45# @28" that bow zings em right through deed as well.
Hunting was not the same for those pioneers that shot heavy bows as it is today.Now bowhunters tend to shoot much closer shots and have many more chances of getting those shots on animals such as deer.Lot more deer in many more areas now.
Back then when they saw something..they shot at it.It did not matter how far it might be.They kept shooting arrows at it untill they either hit it or it ran away.Heavy bows are good if you are slinging arrows out to over 100yds.When you are shooting a broadside animal at the 20yd range like most do today the difference in 80lbs and 45lbs means nothing at all on a deer sized animal.
I honestly believe that the majority of people shoot the light stuff because our society is an "instant" society. People want something and they want it now. When they see all the pretty traditional stuff and see the compound shooters flocking towards it they want it too but they want it NOW. They end up with the only things they can come close to pulling back and then say well this new super flex, deflex reflex carbon master zinger is just as good as a heavy bow rather than put the time and effort into building themselves up to hunting weight bows. JMO.
I won't read through all of the responses....ut I'll make a personal observation:
When I shot compounds, I professed that 50% of all shooters were likely over-bowed. I stand by that. With trad tackle, I don't see it as much, but I'm sure it exists.
(PErsonal observation, follows...)
I have never seen an archer utilizing very high poundage shoot his bow with proper form. Have I seen them shot accurately? Sure.
Brooks Johnson had a harvest photo in a recent issue of TBM I was perusing just this morning. He'd shot a bison with a 51# recurve.
Makes one think, huh?
I'm 6'1"/195#'s and a former college athlete. I still stay in shape (I'll do 25mi. of road work, this week and most others). i have a 58# 'tip at my draw weight....and a 50#'er. I'll take whichever one I'm most accurate with on my '10 elk hunt....and do so with complete confidence.
Redddog,
I agree with your post 100%!
Bowhunting and field archery became my passion (1964)!!! (I shot for years before that, but it was a casuel thing.)
I shot a used 69" Tamerlane for field (36#), and started with a 42# Herters for hunting. Moved up in weight a little at a time until I reached 65#.
Now I shoot 40 lbs.
I awakened an old high school football injury to my right shoulder 8 years ago when I walked out to the garage, took my wheel bow off the hanger and drew. When I got to anchor I thought to myself "Okay dummy, now that you have it drawn and don't have an arrow nocked what are you going to do?"
The answer was simple, let it down. The resulting jolt to my shoulder was agonizing pain. I had the owner of The Archery Shop I frequent get some 60# limbs for it and tried shooting it as part of my therapy for my shoulder. It didn't work.
Then he suggested I try a 35# recurve he had hanging on the wall in the indoor range in the back of his shop. I shot it for 3 weeks until I got a new T/D recurve from an elderly gentleman that lives in our area. That recurve came out at 53#. It was a bit too much for me.
So, I gave it to my son in law and bought a used 46# T/D recurve. I've been through a host, around a hundred, of bows over the past years with draw weights ranging from 43# to 57#. Everything over 49# has been too much for me. Right now I have a new Marriah Thermal that is 46#@28", my draw length, and a near new Morrison ILF riser with a new set of ILF Dakota limbs that is 49#@28". The Morrison can be adjusted down to arround 44#. I very likely will adjust it down to 46#. I shoot a 504 gr Grizzly Stik Sitka out of both bows and they both shoot the arrow with authority. The 46# draw weight is all I'll ever need for hunting deer, hogs and turkey.
Bill
longbowman. Man you made me laugh. I concur with what you said. I just can't quit laughing. I'd luv to see the look on some fellers faces in an archery shop and you drop that bomb. It'd be 911 to the 40# ers.
Seriously fellers, I appreciate the civil input and sure the education and experiance's along with the successes as well.
But longbowman,, he fixed it. Thanx bud....
Ray...........
This thread has suddenly become something to not laugh about, IMHO. When you make fun of and look down your noses at others who make a wise decision to not overbow themselves, you are crossing a line that should not be crossed. NUFF said and last post on this thread.
Bill
I really don't understand why, when someone can & does shoot heavy bows, it's always a "Macho" thing, it's really Very simple, If you can, fine, if not, fine, but is it really necessary to "Down" the person who "Can" Im really not interested in what minimum wt# it takes to get it done, only what Im very consistent with, Im not interested in a bow # 5-10#'s lighter than what I can handle accurately, because "It's" "Enough" I'll have plenty of time to get to that point ... I hope ... Ya'll have a good day ...
Here is my two cents worth. I am nearly 50, have shot a bow since the age of10. I have always kept a trad bow or two, but shot compounds mostly during the 80's and 90's and up til 2004, partly because I ran a shop, part of the business. I always enjoyed shooting a trad bow more. 4 years ago I put up my compuonds and built a #60 self bow, took 2 deer that year and never looked back. Now I was shooting trad in the early 70's and most people I know in KY and Ind. shot #55 and under for hunting. I felt like I needed #60-65 when leaving wheel bows, and I shot alright, for about 40 shots then form fell apart.16 years ago I had a bad accident and have severe arthritis in all my joints as a result, and had to back down to #55 and under to shoot without pain. My groups and shooting improved immensly. Last year due to shoulder pain, I shot a 1974 BW, #46 and 400 gr. set up. I had 2 complet pass throughs, and a double rib and shoulder blade on another deer. None ran out of site. I had shoulder surgery,extensive repair on my right shoulder, I am RH shooter, this march and have spent all spring and summer rehabing. I am back up to #50, will never shoot anything heavier, stupid to do so in my case. I am a burly guy, still in good shape, do 2-3 miles a day walking, 3-5 times a week, this is with a brace on from a bad accident,on my right leg. I am not a wimp, but as my doctor said I am strong enought to cripple myself, back and shoulder. I plan on keeping my bow shooting continuing . We as hunters and archers dont need to look down on others, or question there methods as we dont live their lives. Each to his own unless it affects others.This post has gotten way out of context, focused on EGO, which stands for EDGING GOD OUT, something I dont do in my life. I think George Stout hit it on the head in his posts.
Wow! I think this thread is exactly on track, It started out slamming people for shooting 45# bows and people who are not REAL trad shooters and are to lazy to put forth the effort that REAL trad shooters do. Thanks, way to really make this site shine.
QuoteOriginally posted by longbowman:
I honestly believe that the majority of people shoot the light stuff because our society is an "instant" society. People want something and they want it now. When they see all the pretty traditional stuff and see the compound shooters flocking towards it they want it too but they want it NOW. They end up with the only things they can come close to pulling back and then say well this new super flex, deflex reflex carbon master zinger is just as good as a heavy bow rather than put the time and effort into building themselves up to hunting weight bows. JMO.
give me a break.
Just to give a little insight in my intial experiences, my first real hunting bow in '67 was 43# and it killed deer fine. My two hunting companions shot bows in the 40-45# range. I moved up to 50# to get a little more omph in the shot and flatter trajectory and stayed there. I never could seem to draw heavy weights as my triceps cramp up so the 50s were the right number for me even as a young man.
I believe Fred Bear shot 65# into his later years mainly for two reasons. First he came from a generation of longbows and heavy weights to get the performance they needed. Second, he could pull the weight as he was strong and wiry.
I think this has been a pretty civil and educational discussion I might add.
In the late 60's when I started, my Browning was 46# and I used Forgewoods with Bear Razorheads and took deer. Many bowhunters during this time never shot over 50#, used Cedar arrows and Razorheads.
I jumped up to 55# in the mid 70's because I planned on travelling for western game. Today, the longbow I use is 53#, my recurves are 57# and 58# and I now shoot aluminum with some barrel tapered Ash. As long as I can handle the weights (I'll be 57 on the 16th), I will stay with this poundage.
However there will come a time for me to drop down and shooting 45-50# again won't bother me. I'll probably switch over to Carbon arrows but stay with my Zwickey Eskimo 2 Blade. Its all about being comfortable and good shot placement.
Cuff surgery rehab started me with 40#, which was tough. As the arm got stronger the weight increased, and the fun of the longbow took over. Even though my recurves are faster, there's just more satisfaction for me with a 6 foot longbow. To get a similar trajectory I use 75#, which took some time to become comfortable with.
Anyway, the result for me has been a recovered shoulder and a lot of enjoyment at 61yrs old.
Some of my friends are in the 40 to 50# range and enjoying themselves too, which seems to me to be the whole idea of what we do this for. When my bow becomes too hard to pull I'll go lighter, because I intend to enjoy myself as long as I can.
Got a rude awakening on my first Idaho elk hunt. After a week of hard hunting, little sleep, minimal camp cooking and a 5 hr. climb to 9000 ft. I just couldn't pull her back. As I remember I lost 15 lbs. body weight on that trip. Dropped 10 lbs of draw weight soon thereafter.
I shoot 46-54 pounds and i don't consider them to be the minimum to kill anything. They are MORE than enough so it just depends on how much MORE than enough you think you need. I have a feeling am about #10 heavier than the minimum it takes... so in no way am i on the fringe
plus could care less what anyone says about my setup...
it has nothing to do with strength as I am a personal trainer and exercise physiologist.
This is like one of those "is this traditional debates", so back off and have fun... if you feel a certain way then great aply it to your hunting or shooting style but that doesn't mean it should be applied to everyone.
I shoot a light pound bow with a sight pin but i feel I am just as traditional as the next guy because I make everything myself except the bow ( not that talented) so have fun
Ok. yall have set me straight. I guess I'm just strong and wiry and can pull the weight just like Fred as he was strong and wiry just like me. I didn't realize. I didn't mean to pick on anyone. I just didn't realize how strong I am and how accurate my shooting really is with heavy weight 60# bows.
But.... Margin for error in a good kill increases as the kinetic energy decreases. Kinetic energy is as fact as water is wet. So my point in view of light weight bows and light weight arrows without all things being as close to perfect as can be is correct. I have just ruffled some feathers of some that may have all their ducks in a row with light weight bows. Its the others who don't have their ducks in a row that concern me. Esp. some that even promote it.
Some of yall that like light weight bows have not really defended the sport and ethical comitments by stating when a person should not hunt deer with a bow when physical limitations are at question. When? How low is low? How light is light? This is not a comparable sport to fly fishing where now persons catch fish on '00' weight rods with 1.5# line. This is a sport that an honest clean kill is responsible and the dedication to such is what we should all strive to be. In light of archery and the history that has been layed before us should not be disreguarded as old times and folk lure. We hunt on the backs of the ol'timers and what they did to start the acceptance of archery as being an efficient way to responsibly take game. They paid the dues. And for some reason Bear, Hill, Pearson, Pope, Young, and all the others omited in their writtings about how technology had limited them and that heavy bows, heavy arrows were the only way for success.
Remember that success stories are all we will hear about. We will not hear of the wounded and lost game.
Ray.......
I hunt with lighter bows but do not consider what I use marginal for the game I hunt at all.I shoot two holes with the largest broadheads through the animals I hunt.How can that be consider marginal when I could shoot little broadheads with even less weight?I am not sure why it bothers people that some of use have no trouble killing the same animals with a little less than it takes them to do it with. ;) :biglaugh:
I don't recall anyone saying light weight bows and light weight arrows would kill as heavy bows and heavy arrows. We also did not hear of a lot of the failures of Bear and Pearson. Only their successes because they were selling their products. Learn more about Archery history before you start talking about it.
Dan
I refuse to "take a side". I shoot what I shoot because I like it and it is effective for me. It's probably a little asinine to have these discussions anyway. The only people that may benefit are the inexperienced, as the accomplished hunter doesn't need someone else's opinion to build confidence in his bow or skill. Try as I may though, I just can't believe that this is all about the benevolence of the masters as they lead future generations in the right path. It's the need for validation that keeps these topics going. Insecurity causes folks to get their backs up against the wall. If you've got to prove your point to someone else to feel good than you probably haven't proved it to yourself yet.
One other thing, I've tryed to remember, in all these years, ever having a discussion about wounded and lost game where the conclusion was "just too little bow". I've never heard or seen it. Honestly. Where are the statistics for all the game crippled and lost by bows under a certain weight? Provide numbers for too little, or too much, bow having a correlation to lost game. I'll look at those cold hard facts.
The biggest inadequacy and failure of archery equipment is between the archer's two ears, not in his muscle strength or lack thereof.
TradBowyer - I'm from the same time period as George. There were lots of very fast recurves in the 60s- in particular the Groves. The only recurves I know that are truly faster than the 60s bows are Palmer's double carbon limbs. But there have been many fast recurves from all the way back to the 50s.
for the record: I shoot a 1991 46# Partners TD (built by Mike Palmer & Bob Lee) but at my 30½" draw it's 53# and I also shoot a 2005 45# Quinn Stallion that's 53# at my draw. They are the two bows I shoot every day - with the same arrows and both bows shoot around 185fps with full length 2018s & 2117s (both over 600grns)
Rainman....sales gimmicks?...Um...Hadn't thought of that? Thats why 45# bows were pushed.
Jedimaster... You said "Insecurity causes folks to get their backs up against the wall"...Um.. haven't thought of that either?
I think I'm up agaist a wall here? What do yall think? Am I up against a wall? What am I defending? Am I insecure? And so much that I have to ask why yall don't draw the heavy weight bows of 60#'s ???
Does my question threaten the principals of this sport. Or do I not ask? Should I not ask? Should I not be curious as to why a mass of recent newbies shoot bows of weight that is what I would call light?.... Should I not feel a reason to promote kinetic energy without shooting a compound?... Should I feel guilty about me feeling that I'm above those whom shoot 39# bows at deer?
Should I not be concerned and desire a wakeup to some that maybe not be capable yet of doing what yall do in a resposible manner?...
Some of yall here may shoot a 45# bow and have the success. But do yall think about the ones that cannot or do not have that capability at this time?..
We....as responsible bowhunters have a resposiblity to protect, defend, and promote that of which would not threaten our sport.
And when I say sport, to me it is a passion that has shown me more about ethical behavior than anything on earth. Trad archery has been a blessing to me and has taught me in ways that nothing else could.
Ray...........
I like light bows as well...mine weighs less than three pounds,lol...Oh, you were talking draw weight... I have several bows around but I do most of my hunting with two recurves. One is about 59 # at my draw (a tick under 29") and the other is about 62# at my draw. I have a longbow that is 52# pounds at my draw that I haven't hunted with yet (its too purty)...I shoot these bows because they are comfortable to me and I shoot them well and I kill things with them. Some may consider them heavy, some may consider them light. I do like the history of archery and enjoy reading about it, but what poundage Art Young or Fred Bear or Howard Hill hunted with doesn't factor into my decision on what to hunt with. Its a personal decision. I use what I use because its what I like.
I think its a good idea to shoot what you can shoot accurately. It may be 45# or it may be 85#. A bad shot is a bad shot, period. Its more important to have a well tuned arrow with a SHARP (Sharper than Sharp) broadhead. Its all about getting close and making a good shot and an even better follow up. If a person isn't capable of going out and making good killing shots with a 45# bow then they DANG sure don't need to be out hunting with a 65# pound bow. How is that ethical?
David
Look bud I understand where you are coming from. To me it is the way you make your case the things you say and how you say them. You just can't come on a site where prolly 35 percent or more people shoot under 50 pounds and tell them they have no rite to be hunting and that you are better than them because you shoot more poundage than them. What if I walked up to you with a 75 pound compound and said man that bow you shoot is not good enough to kill deer, you would be fighting mad. I am trying to build up a little in bow weight anyway but I hurt my self bad starting out with a 60 pound recurve and it was a year before I could even shoot 45 pounds, so I am setting a limit at 55 pounds cuzz I know it should work for my deer and 150 pound pigs. You can bet your bippy if I shoot an arrow in the kill zone of a deer and it does not perform in an ethical way with my 45 pound bow, I won't need RaybowTx to tell me to change, I will know for my self. If I get to 55 pounds and that does not work then I will pick up my compound and accept that this is something my body will not let me do to my own personal standard of ethics. I don't think it will come to that. I understand you are concerned you just got to be carfull making a case otherwise you look like an egotistical person who wants to pick a fight.
I would have no problem with shooting a 85lb bow all day. This is the issue. Suppose I am in my stand and it is 10 degrees. I have sit in the cold for an hour or better waiting on the sun to rise. Suddenly a deer aproaches from behind and I have to twist at the waist, bend slightly down at the waist and draw my 85lb bow to full draw. Now given 85lbs is a bit extreme but you get the point. Just because you can draw a bow standing flatfooted in a good position means nothing imho. If you can't draw your bow while sitting on your bottom ,without busting a blood vessel, it might be to heavy. I prefer to shoot bows from 55 to 60lb at my 30" plus draw. I had a bow that was about 68lbs at my draw and another that was about 57. Both from the same bowyer. The lighter bow was 7 or 8 fps slower with the same arrow, through the same chrono on the same day shot by me. I'm not willing to risk the scenereo presented above for 7 fps. To each there own.
Imho making ethical shot choices in ranges within you and your equipments ability is key. Some of our founding fathers ideas of ethics were poor at best. Launching arrows at animals over 100 yards might have required heavier weights, but not broadside shots at 12 yards.
I hate threads that go on for five pages and do nothing but pick fly crap out of pepper. It doesn't matter what size you are, what you do for a living or what you hunt, be it bullseyes,twelve rings or meat for the table. You shoot what ever it takes to place the arrow where it needs to be. Accuracy is key to winning scores and feeding your family plain and simple. The folks that know their limitations are the ones doing the sport the most good. Just my .02 cents. Denis
Are you kidding me with this thread?????? You have GOT to be joking!?
I haven't seen a single shooter at any 3D shoot that is shooting high poundage. Not one.
If ever there were a correlation to inherent accuracy....I would think this would be it.
Are the guys shooting high #-age ALL exceptions to this "rule"? Won't comment. Just making an observation.
So many of the 3d shooters I shoot with shoot light weight bows that are not setup for a hunting bow. They do not use hunting arrows or a bow they would hunt with IF they hunt at all.
To them, their bow is a "target" bow NOT a weapon. They are not trying to get optimum penetration at a live animal target.
Nowadays, 3d shoots have very little to do with real life hunting. It is 180 dgrees in the opposite direction from hunting. So...the two cannot be comapared.
Richie:
It may be different where you live/shoot. But, I'll say this about the successful 3D shooters I know....
They're THE most informed and capable hunters I know.
Your mileage may vary.
Okay fellers. Since I started I get to have the closing statement.
There are those that shoot light and there are those that shoot heavy.
Each one chooses what he wants because of what fits him or her.
We traditional archers/bowhunters are very devoted to our sport and I believe that we all will do anything in our power to protect this way of life in the sport of bowhunting.
In closing I'd like to say thank you for the input and participation in this thread on a subject that is very contraversial.
Thank yall for standing up for what you believe.
And that strength is inherent in each one of us and that strength should be used to protect and defend all of us from the ones whom do not understand and share the passions of traditional archery...The End.
Ray.............
There is one thing I feel is common on this thread. Most of those shooting lighter poundage are around my age! At 54, I shoot around 45 to 50 lbs. In my younger days, I shot my share of 65 to 70lb. bows. My theory is that many of those in traditional archery have been into it many years and thru those years have come to realize you can take deer very handily with lighter bows. Also, since we're all getting older, we have more pain and injuries, but we still want to hunt!!!
Ok, let me get this straight; there are guys with a lot of experience on here that have said they have killed deer with their light setups, but the questions is ask why don't we shoot heavier. Experience says 45# is plenty. Then we are told we owe it to the deer to use heavy weights. If we are going to draw a line on what is heavy enough, why don't we just not use a bow at all and use a 30-06; that should be heavy enough (we owe it to the deer after all). No wait--it has to be a 7 mag. A 30-06 is not heavy enough.
Hi All,
The first bow I bought about 1972 was a Bear Kodiak Mag, 50# @ 28"......the last bow I bought, a Tomahawk, is 50# @ 28". When I bought the Kodiak, people wanted to know what kind of really big game I would be hunting that I needed 50#. Then the pendulum went to heavier bows....70#....80#....90#....and now back the other way.
Until they cross whitetail with boar hogs so I can't get an arrow into the shoulder area, I think I'll stay where I am. ;)
the first bow i had was a self bow, yew, with a sinew backing. 75# or so draw weight. shot one deer with it. that was in 1953. understood right away how an arrow killed, by cutting. to use kinetic energy with an arrow , use a large blunt instead of a broadhead.
i will be 75 in november. still change a mile of 3" handlines with grain risers every day in hay and grain, still bale, load and feed 120#-130# bales, still can rope and tail down a bull or cow when i need to, and i can still feel confident shooting bear and deer with my 40# longbow. as i have stated before, if people obey the laws of the state they are hunting in thats good enough for me.
got to say though that i see all the time in these kind of threads where people lump bear in with the "large game" catagory. bear are the easiest animal to get a complete passthrough on of anything i have ever shot with a bow. jackrabbits are made of iron in comparison.
There is a gentleman that lives in my state that I've been fortunate to get to know and become friends,and he is 72, shoots older recurves from the past and drives the arrow threw most of them and many are big bodied bucks,his bow weight is between40-45lbs and he has stated that he has shot that bow weight all his life.If you would see the results of his past hunts you would have little concern about lower bow weights, especially for deer.
I would love to know from a bowyer what the average weight is for their orders.
Anyone out there want to post up what they think their average # ordered bow is?
"i will be 75 in november. still change a mile of 3" handlines with grain risers every day in hay and grain, still bale, load and feed 120#-130# bales, still can rope and tail down a bull or cow when i need to, and i can still feel confident shooting bear and deer with my 40# longbow. as i have stated before, if people obey the laws of the state they are hunting in thats good enough for me"
Larry Hatfield tells me something about archery and hunting with bows i listen and can take it for granted that he might just know what he is talking about.....
Ben
My bows from the low 40# to the low 50# sell very well. Over 55# hang on the wall longer waiting for a buyer.I just about don't build any over 52#. Bob
As someone else stated: Fred Bear built and sold hundreds of thousands of bows over his career. 45# was either the top or right at the top in regards to numbers sold. Ol' Fred knew a thing or two about hunting and about business too I suspect.