Trad Gang

Hello Traditional Bowhunters,
I am relatively new to this website (made aware of it by my brother "NorthernCaliforniaHunter") and have shot a compound bow for some time (I've been hunting for 15 years).  My brother has been encouraging me to try things the traditional way and now that my son is 15 I believe it is a great time to try it together and hunt with traditional bows.  Every year we head out to the wilderness, so the concept of a takedown is very attractive....as is lightness of weight.
Please share your expertise as to what we should be looking at....especially if you have a nice bow (or two) in your collection that would fit our needs......as an Architect, I am driven by "eyecandy" and "craftsmanship"....to which my wallet does not always agree.
My son is 5'8" and 145 lbs.  (I guess he has about a 26 inch draw.  I am 5'10" and 225 lbs. with about a 27 inch draw....with my compound....I've hunted with a range from 55lbs to 70 lbs.
Your advice is greatly appreciated!!!

Head to the Trad Gang Sponsors List at the top of the page, and browse through them. You should see plenty of take-down bows at various price ranges. When some catch your eye, you can do a search here on Pow Wow, and bring-up pages of information and pictures.

Before you buy a bow, try to head to a shop or a range, and try a few. See if you can get measured-up for your draw length. If you decide to get a custom bow, it can be made for your draw length. If you get a second-hand or off-the-shelf bow, the maths is minus three pounds for each inch less than 28", and plus three pounds for each inch over 28" (approximately). You'd also be able to get an idea for draw weight if you tried a few.

All the best with it!

Thank you Ben,
I went to the local shop (only one I know of in San Jose, CA) and got measured for arrows.....my brother just about keeled over laughing and called me "monkey" when I repeated what they told me "that I had a 31 inch draw" and they cut my carbon arrows (3555) to that length.  They mentioned that that size would work for any recurve/longbow in the poundage I would be hunting with.  That's before my brother sent me a link to information on arrow tuning.....
Anyway, I don't know how much I can trust the local shop for archery information.  Their expertise truly is firearms.  Also, I have a question as to the minimum legal "poundage" of a hunting bow in California.  If anyone out there knows please let me know.....as I can't find it in the regulations.

Ah, yes. I forgot about that factor. There're many shops that sell wheely bows here in Australia, camping and firearms shops, and they really have no idea about archery. Perhaps the range would be a better place. Or, see if you can find some CA TradGangers.

Lightness of weight --- look at a one piece recurve like the Toelke Chinook. Made to outlast, very light in the hand, dynamic shooter, fantastic to look at.
T/D's are usually heavier than one piece bows. Also a short one piece bow has longer limbs that to me make the bow more comfortable to shoot.

Interesting....I like the Chinook very much...and also the 3 piece takedown with the bocote riser and juniper limbs.   Both of those bows would be much lighter than the compound bow I've been lugging around.  I am attracted to the takedown because it can live in the pack until I've set up camp....whereas the one piece would be all scratched up and would hang up on the manzanita bushes and brambles during the hike.
Question:  I see the number of brace height choices being offered.  How is that measurement determined and does it vary from recurve to longbow?  In making a selection....assuming there is no archery shop that can answer questions credibly in the vicinity, what is the best course of action?

Indomitable...
I am no expert and have been just where you are now...

Go for what you like.. My suggestion is to look for a local trad group or shoot in your area and go, trad folks don't mind sharing so much so you could try lots of bows...

Heavy/light- longbows tend to be lighter than recurves... Just as in compounds, brace height and nock to nock length(ATA) tends to be more forgiving... 2 pc tends to be lighter than 3 pc etc.. My LB is than a lb... but it's one pc... but I shoot it better than my 3 pc TD recurve...

Recurve vs Longbow- coming from compound most folks go to recurve as the grip is somewhat similiar, but many of the newer hybrid longbows are the same... as they have a grip while smaller than most curves they do help induce a repeatable grip quite easily...

I like toelke bows, but am a whip man personally.... for me, I like the grip and the thumb rest, seems to melt in my hand like butter... But there are plenty of bows that will work just as well... One thing you'll figure out is that less fiddling and more shooting with trad...

Thanks Slasher,
I like "less fiddling and more shooting with trad...." part.  My concern still remains how do you pack your bow in when it's one piece?  Do you find it hanging onto branches as you hike when it's strapped to your pack?  I have a tactical pack that was designed for rifles....that can also carry 2 or 3 piece take-downs plus some arrows neatly protected between the pack's frame and the pack.

The Chinook has the same grip as the Whip. If you did buy a Toelke, Dan is always happy to give you as much info as possible. If you are worrying about packing the bow, another benefit of a Toelke is he gives you a great leather case for your bow. So keep it in the case until you are ready to hunt.

Also might add that I'm not positive on the weight of the Chinook but it has to be the lightest recurve in the hand I've held, as light as any Hill longbow. So weight is not an issue at all with the Chinook.

Much welcome to you & your son! Keep it fun & you'll always benefit. Too many options to make a mistake. What do you prefer (LB or Rcv) & why? Visit various shoots and try different bows. All will be lighter than your compound and you'll be surprised at the simple integrity & efficiency. My preference is heavier Hill longbows over 68" for smooth speed and grace.

You may want to have your draw length checked again (5'10" 31" draw?, I guess that's possible).
They probably cut the arrows to 31" so it would leave extra room for your broadhead, but I would imagine your draw length is less.
Just don't overbow yourself poundage wise.
I shoot a Martin Hatfield takedown but it is a little heavy in the hand.

QuoteOriginally posted by Indomitable:
Thanks Slasher,
 My concern still remains how do you pack your bow in when it's one piece?  Do you find it hanging onto branches as you hike when it's strapped to your pack?

at less than a lb, I just carry it in my hand.. but then, here in the land of whitetails... you never know when one will try and run you over...

Yep it does catch in the really thick stuff, but a longbow is open at the nock and thin, so very little actually catches on it brush wise... Now, some places on public land, I use the recurve- break it down and put it in the pack and ride in on my mountain bike...

You are on the right track, my suggestion is to try as many bows as you can, if not look for a bow that does something for you!

Bows are truly like women.. They are all different, you can appreciate the beauty and quality of all of them, but there will be at least one that you fall in love with.. And once you do, just embrace it with all the trials and tribulations that come with it..
There will be many other beauties that call your name, but stay true and work it out till at least you learn to shoot that one bow well... understand what you like and dislike about that bow, before jumping to another bow...

I started with a '67 bear recurve, moved to a 3pc recurve and then went to the whip and haven't looked back... I got a second one in heavier weight, but then Dan made the grip to fit my hand- as a smaller than avg fella, a custom bow grip made all the difference in the world to me... This is less tech and actually a step back; it's more emotional than it is logical...

Just embrace it... Enjoy the ride... and welcome to the stick-n-string...

Welcome!

Recurve or longbow....?  I personally prefer a longbow but have about 15 recurves and two longbows.  Mainly I bought all the recurves because I got good deals on them from yard sales and the big online auction site.  Never paid over about 75 or 80 bucks for any of them and got some for as little as 5 bucks.  My longbows though were both custom made for me personally.  One of them is my "go to bow" 99.9% of the time.

Like slasher said, just carry the bow in your hand.  My longbow weighs a little more than a pool cue and at 66 inches long there is only 33 inches sticking out to the front when it's held horizontal at my side.  Nothing at all if held vertical.  I used to fly fish with a 9ft fly rod in thick nasty creeks in PA and never had much of a problem toting that thing around so the bow is a piece of cake.  If you are climbing mountains and need your hands free, I could see the need for a takedown model, otherwise not so much.  I personally prefer the looks of a two piece (look like a one piece) and there are multiple styles from hinges to sockets, quarter turn fittings and bevel locks.  All work.  The big benefit of a three piece is you can later order another set of limbs in a different weight or length.

If I were you, I would look for a used one piece recurve bow on line in the 45 to 50 pound range at 28".  Keep things under a hundred dollars.  And yes, that's not too hard to do with recurves from the 60's and 70's if you don't have your heart set on something collectible like a Bear.  Lots of Ben Pearson, Root, Herters, Shakespear, Wing etc options.  

Since your draw and your sons draw are both under 28" you will be pulling less weight than what is marked on the bow but learning will come faster with a weight that is zero strain.  In just a few weeks, you will be able to pull more weight and will also have had time to try to hook up with other trad shooters in CA or find a trad shoot to go to.  Most shoots have vendors selling bows and sure as shooting, you will get a bad case of "new bow-itis".  You will find something new, custom and exotic that shoots like a dream and you'll want it BAD.     :biglaugh:    

Since you only spent a pittance on the used recurve you started with, no big deal.  Buy the new one, sell the old one or, if you're sentimental like most of us, keep it and use it as a backup or maybe for bow fishing. (Talk about a sport that will turn a bow into a beater!)

Come fall, the 45-50 pound bows will work just fine for deer if you don't move up to something else newer and stronger.  Just be honest with yourself about your ability and keep all shots inside your slam dunk shot range and 40 pounds will do the job just fine.

"You are on the right track, my suggestion is to try as many bows as you can, if not look for a bow that does something for you!

Bows are truly like women.. They are all different, you can appreciate the beauty and quality of all of them, but there will be at least one that you fall in love with.. And once you do, just embrace it with all the trials and tribulations that come with it..
There will be many other beauties that call your name, but stay true and work it out till at least you learn to shoot that one bow well... understand what you like and dislike about that bow, before jumping to another bow... "

Slasher hit it right on the head, brother. Nice to see you on the website. Coming over from the darkside, stabilizer?    :smileystooges:

Just did a quick search... There's 10 tradgang members in San Jose alone.    :campfire:

Thanks Dave,
I am listening.....and, I am struggling with the very real desire to have a "strong and manly" bow....I need to get started with the minimum legal poundage in CA, and perhaps a little more....
I've heard from my brother that it is 45 lbs.
I've also heard and read plenty about choosing too strong a bow and having to deal with shoulder issues later.....not a way to conduct a successful hunt - which in the end... is truly my end result/goal!

I just did some googling and found a reference for hog hunting where they did not mention a minum weight but rather that "a bow must be able to cast a hunting arrow a minimum horizontal distance of 130 yards".

Here is the link.  The archery part starts on page 15 of the pdf file.

 http://www.dfg.ca.gov/publications/docs/pigguide.pdf

I'm actually surprised at the amount of common sense in this CA regulation....  Now, just need to find the definition of a "hunting arrow" and also if this applies to all archery hunting or pigs only.

Just found the same requirement in the general mammal hunting regulations.  See line (f) in the below link.

  http://www.fgc.ca.gov/regulations/current/mammalregs.asp#354  

*note*

When the page loads, it comes up on the main page.  Do nothing at first and it will go by itself to the actual section with the reference to archery reg's.  

That section is #354, line (f)

Line (c) looks like it describes a "hunting arrow" as simply an arrow with a head that will not pass through a 7/8" hole.  So broadheads must be greater than 7/8" wide but probably can be on any arrow?

Thanks Dave,
Are you aware of a calculator that would translate poundage/approrpriate grain weight arrows to travel distance?....and, is that travel distance measured horizontally, 10 degrees up from horizon, what/how?  The regulation, other than broadhead size, is not all that clear.

Jose,

There is really no calculator to determine a bows cast based on draw weight that would work across the board for all the different types of bows.  A general rule of thumb for self bows to determine if they are adequate shooters is that they cast an arrow a distance equal to the draw weight plus 100 yards.  So, a 50 lb self bow should shoot an arrow 150 yards.  If it is exceptionally well tillered, it might shoot 20 or so yards farther.

Almost any glass backed bow should do this easily and then some with arrows in the 8 to 10 grains per pound range.  That is, say if you have a 50 pound bow, 10 grains per pounds is a 500 grain arrow total weight.  Eight gr/lb would be a 400 gr. arrow.  I did not see any mention of minim arrow weights in the regulations but 8 to 10 gr/in is standard for most trad guys.

By the CA state regulation, that means that on average, depending on bow design and efficiency, about 30 lbs is the minimum draw weight.  Of course, it depends on the actual performance of the bow.  The kicker might be that if say I wanted to take my kid hunting and she had a 35lb bow, I'd want her to use arrows that were about 10 to 12 gr/in just for the added penetration an heavy arrow provides but if I went too heavy, they might not go 130 yards.  I guess to be legal, you'd just have to go out and test your setup.  For your son pulling only 26 inches, if he was using a bow 40 lb at 28" the draw weight at his draw would be about 35 lbs.  Getting down close to the range where you need to try for distance with his actual hunting arrows.

I'm sure that the "horizontal distance" refers to point A to point B distance measurement taken on the ground between you and where your arrow lands.  You have to aim about 35 degrees upwards to get the best distance from a bow shot.  My bow that is 65# at 32" will shoot a hunting arrow about 195 to 205 paces.

Dave,
To be safe, I'll look for a bow between 40-45 lbs. for him.  That way, with the proper arrows, he is likely to meet/exceed the 130 yard criteria of the regulations.  Thanks for taking all the time to "digest" the regulations for me.

Excellent post Dave, I was able to visualize the calculus as it relates to the real world. I suppose my 15grain/pound arrows are a tad heavy, eh? They fly well though!  

I've purchased an used 64" 56#@28", Abbott longbow for me to get started and practice in my back yard....as a tradgang member gave me a nice deal on a bow and some arrows.....archery season is over for "A" zone and I need to wait another week for general/rifle season to begin so I can actually hunt with the bow.  I still need to get one for my son...and, I'll more than likely go the used route for him as well.  Once I am more proficient and know more of what I want, I'll feel more comfortable buying one of those magnificent custom bows you've all given me advice on.

Sounds like you're on the right track.  Just don't waste time finding one for your boy if you want him to get some practice in.

As far as that goes, go back and re read the comment about being honest with yourself about what range you are competent at.  You might not be ready at all this year.