Was wondering how many are going to hunt moose & Elk with Bows under 50lbs and why?
My son is 15 and can't draw any more than that; but he knows exactly where to put it and how to get it there!
Two years ago, just before elk season, a pinched nerve in my neck[compressed disk]sapped all the strength out of me. Try as I might all I could draw was a measly 47#. So I tuned my daala to a set of 700grain arrows and promised my self no more than 15 yards.Well I almost pulled it off on a smallish 5 point that came in downwind. This year I'm back with a vengence with my 63# Kwyk-Styk.It's going to be a blast.Can't wait. Mo.
Hey Bjorn you better take a camera, i have a funny feeling that boy of yours is going to show use all how to elk hunt. Good luck, be safe.
Will be hunting Moose and Mule deer with my 48# @ 28" longbow. I only draw 27" so its really about 45#.550 grain arrows with KME sharp broadheads. I shoot that weight because I can be accurate with it. If I try to shoot more weight my accuracy gets erratic. Bob
i wouldnt reccomend goin after a moose shootin under 50 he may take it as a personal insult and toss yer arrow back at ya then chase ya out of the county lickity split. :D :biglaugh: :D
seriously i think you need more but thats just me,i can pull 90 if i want too but i hunt at 60.check the regulations where you'll be and make sure of minimum poundages for specific game animals.as long as you get the projectile to the landing pad and you have a razor sharp head to plow the way in then go for it.key being shot placement of course.good luck......larry :campfire:
It is really all about shot placement. i saw a pic of a guy in Canada with a very short bow I believe was 43#. He killed the moose with a pass thru.
Well said Bill shot placement is the key.One other thing lots of old timers believed.Was sometimes you are better off not passing thru big game like elk and moose.Sometimes far more damage is done inside the critter as the beast is running full tilt thru the thicket and doing open heart surgery on itself with your well place shot and sharp broadhead.bd
Here in Ontario you have to have 48.5lbs @27.6" or less.So I'm thinking a sharp broadhead and the right placement and you got 1200 lbs of moose on the ground.Hope you got a lot of friends and a SHARP knife. :help: :campfire:
Thank for your thoughts , I was just cheaking what others thought as I have heard from locals about the same that Elk & moose require more than 50lbs and I agree, we have some self professed expert Bow testers and trad guy telling people that 40ish lbs is enough and while you may get lucky once in a while with low poundage I think that if you can pull more than 50lbs you owe it to the game you hunt to try for a clean harvest rather than make game suffer. so when I go after Moose and Elk it will be with my 61lb Kwyk Styk, or 60lb Little Grizzly.
There should be imposed minimum regs in place for those intent upon challenging borderline equipment. I'd never do it.
I've got an old Herter's longbow...24#@30".
I'm going to give it a try. Wish me luck.
50 would be as low as I would go with my 28 inch draw length
Yea I have one of those no shelf high school archery 25# bows I believe I will try. I think I can kill one with the right shot placement right behind the ear. Not.
Of course shot placement is the key. That is a given.
The problem is shot placement is determined by factors other than you or your weapon. A moving target in the wild has a lot to do with your shot placement and you can't control that. However, you CAN control the lethality of your weapon when things go wrong. So I think a hunter should use the heaviest bow and arrow he can accurately shoot leaving nothing on the table.
I believe Fred Eicher has killed everything in North America with a 52 lb recurve. does that mean anything? Don't know, but I was going to try and start shooting around that weight to see if my elbow/shoulders can handle it.
-Charlie
Can it be done with everything going perfect? Of course...
Is it an optimum set-up? Not really.....
Gotta remember draw length has a lot to do with it too....
Fred's a big guy with a fairly long draw, and shoots a fast bow.....
On the other end would be a guy shooting a self bow, or older d-shaped longbow with a 25" draw....
Big difference in those two set-ups.....
QuoteOriginally posted by Ray Hammond:
I've got an old Herter's longbow...24#@30".
I'm going to give it a try. Wish me luck.
you won't need luck, but you will need the following ...
* bail money for when ya gets locked up 'cause ya didn't meet the official bow draw weight requirement
* good health insurance to patch up the antler/hoof holes in yer bod from a ticked off elk/moose
* a lifetime investment in a shrink, 'cause bud, you done got yerself some mental issues that do need a fixin' pronto
good one, ray! :D
:bigsmyl:
Ray, Richie and Rob: You're not being very politically correct! You've given me a good laugh :goldtooth: - thanks, fellows!
I don't often see elk or moose under 50 pounds. Typically only around June.
Must be a very difficult hunt.
ChuckC
QuoteOriginally posted by ChuckC:
I don't often see elk or moose under 50 pounds. Typically only around June.
Must be a very difficult hunt.
ChuckC
good one! :D
Keep in mind you want to throw a heavy arrow, so your bow needs to perform as such.
I have the Easton Traditional Harvests and in it Eichler shoots a big cow Shiras Moose. Guru is right, he's a big guy with a long draw length but I think I read or heard somewhere in an interview he was getting around 188-190 fps out of his setup. Not super fast but still pretty fast. I wish he would post more on here.
I could be wrong on the numbers, but one thing that's true is that on the video he hits the moose in the front shoulder and shatters the humerus. You can see right after the shot that she's limping on her left front and he shows the results of the shot after. The bone is split right in half and you can see where the arrow passed through. If I hadn't seen it in the video I wouldn't have believed you could do that with any 54 lb bow (compound or otherwise) no matter how far you draw it. It's a real testament to great arrow flight and sharp, strong broadheads. Pretty amazing and has sure given me a lot more confidence in my own equipment. Rick.
Rob your 1,2,3, is damn funny I got tears in my eyes (pronto).Myself if I could not pull 50# I would not think of shooting at a Moose (Idon't have any elk so I can't comment on that).
A moose is about as big an animal as any of us are ever going to shoot at,short of a griz ,and how many of us are going there?Of coures we want to use as much wieght as we can and not be overbowed.That magic number is different for each of us(me 58# max,some guys 70#).what I posted earlier was what the Ont regs say.60-70# is a lot easyer for a wheely bow or crossbow than it is for me :archer:
I just ran a Buffalo Stick from Rodney Wright and 40@28 52" 10 grains per pound it shot 160 fps. That would kill a ELK or Moose in my book.
So will a .22 bullet.
topics like this are pie-in-the-sky pure theoretical nonsense that have nothing to do with the real world. i sure hope newbies to trad bowhunting don't take any of this "light bow" stuff seriously ... maybe we should pull these kinda threads (and spoil my fun).
sport hunters who wanna use mickey mouse tackle on truly big game are just not dealing with a full deck, they might as well go totally berserk and try using a bowie knife to take down an elk/moose. then again, that ain't trad bowhunting, that's just nuts ... :mad:
QuoteOriginally posted by Rob DiStefano:
topics like this are pie-in-the-sky pure theoretical nonsense that have nothing to do with the real world. i sure hope newbies to trad bowhunting don't take any of this "light bow" stuff seriously ... maybe we should pull these kinda threads (and spoil my fun).
sport hunters who wanna use mickey mouse tackle on truly big game are just not dealing with a full deck, they might as well go totally berserk and try using a bowie knife to take down an elk/moose. then again, that ain't trad bowhunting, that's just nuts ... :mad:
The truth !!!!!
Maybe this is it.....maybe it all goes back to the fact that so many bow holders would never dare use a bow heavy enough to cause any muscle pain or build.
The same mind set says they must have a flat arrow trajectory coming out of their bow for 30-40 yards no matter what. They can't stand the thought or appearance of a "slow" arrow coming out of their bow.
When you put these two "Mickey Mouse" scenarios together the only option is to use a light arrow...and use that light arrow to hunt the biggest baddest animals in North America... with zero regard for errors in shot placement. I think that is unethical and should be illegal.
Richie
Most places tell you what weight is min for the animals you are hunting.They don't pull those numbers out of a hat.They use them because they have been proved on such animals.Hunt legal and learn when and where to take shots and you should have no problems with any game animal.Someone else has already done the research for you.It is a simple matter of checking the State reguations most times. jmo
I personally don't think these topics should be pulled, but I do think they should be answered with "real world"/"in the field" experience and taken seriously.....
Hopefully I'll live long enough......
If there comes a time that I'm 75 years old...or I get injured at some point of my life and I can only pull 45#, and get an opportunity to go on an elk hunt...it may be me that's looking for possible answer's to a question I might have about a lighter set-up...
Just like some of the guys here that have a deep down luv for hunting and want to do it as long as they can, or are maybe limited because of injury....
But for someone that's physically able to pull a more efficient weight, and chooses to go the extra light route....then there's no excuse for that....
Let's all try to help out...someday it might be us ;)
the physical size of an animal is not a predictor of resistance to penetration.
james wrenn has it right, obey the laws of the state you are hunting in, shoot a reasonable weight arrow with a sharp broadhead attached in the right place and the animal will die.
"Just like some of the guys here that have a deep down luv for hunting and want to do it as long as they can, or are maybe limited because of injury....
But for someone that's physically able to pull a more efficient weight, and chooses to go the extra light route....then there's no excuse for that...."
not to stir the pot but realistically, if it is good for one guy, why isn't it good for the other one? double standard?
I think the main thing is that i feel people need to accept their limitations. If I live long enough that i can't hunt big game with an effective trad setup, i"ll be dropping the longbow and picking up the compound. If I get to the point that I can't shoot the compound, i'll pick up the crossbow. I love hunting enough that I"ll hunt as long as I possibly can regardless of weapon i have to use. No offense to anyone but I read articles in magazines about the case for light weight trad bows and almost always, the women and kids are used to emphasize the negative points of high minimum draw weights. THe way I look at it is regardless of who you are, if you can't shoot an effective setup, change your weapon choice. Again, not to be political or devisive but it just seems there is a double standard for youth and women vs "real men". On one hand, i've read where anything less than #55 and 700 grain arrows is asking for trouble but then I hear people arguing about how minimum draw weights will keep women and youth from being able to archery hunt. why is a lightweight setup good for some people but not others? If it works, it works...if it doesn't, it doesn't.
Curt....Bingo...I see alot of posts asking ALOT of question that I think are, well obvious to me. Then I stop and think when I first started I just didn't know. This is One of the Best, if not the BEST forums to ask and learn. I have seen the BH/arrow weight question asked a thousand times. I saw a vidio on here where Tippit killed a bear with a stone point/wood arrow and 50# self bow and got a pass through. Time and time again we get asked if this or that bow/arrow/BH set up will work, I want to show them this vidio. Remember that Those of you who have been there and done that need to Teach/pass on what you have learned. Take the time to pass on the RIGHT answer to the new/younger bowhunts that are asking these questions.
An older hunter I know has cleanly killed more than 20 elk with his long-bow, cedar arrows, and sharp Zwicky's. When he let me shoot his bow--it felt lighter than mine. Curious, I put it on a bow scale---49 lbs at 28 inches, and he draws an inch shorter than that.
However, he shoots darn near every day, consistently hits targets at 30 yards that I miss at 20, and won't shoot at game unless he feels sure of hit.
QuoteTHe way I look at it is regardless of who you are, if you can't shoot an effective setup, change your weapon choice. Again, not to be political or devisive but it just seems there is a double standard for youth and women vs "real men".
The problem comes up because many do not agree what that effective setup really is. :) That is where the State mins clear things up.
While some think that someone shooting a lighter bow weight than they use is unethical others think if someone can not shoot well enough to kill an animal with a weight the state aproves to be clealy enough, they might be a bit unethical. ;) Some people always assume the bigger gun is always best when in reality it is not always the case.
Jim (Wren) I actually am not certain I believe that fully (about the Game departments using scientific background to determine bow weight.) If they did, they would give better parameters, such as an arrow weight / speed combo. That makes sense, bow weight does not, especially now.
They nearly all say 7/8" for a broadhead width. I am led to believe that this is because Roy Case's Kiska broadhead was this size, Wisconsin bought into it, then the other states kinda said "what are you requiring ?" and the rest is history.
Even at that.... the States make the reg's and we have to follow them or change them.
I myself tend to agree with some here, we keep looking for the "absolute least" I can get by with. That doesn't bode well in my mind.
ChuckC
The physical size of an animal certainly IS a predictor of resistance to penetration. Everything is bigger and tougher -- hide, bones, muscle, etc. There's a reason gun hunters move up in bullet caliber and speed as they hunt larger critters -- to get the penetration they need to kill the animal. If animal size didn't matter re penetration, we could all hunt elephants with .22s.
Well Chuck of course I can't say what they do in every state.I can say here it was a long drawn out process determining to drop our bow weight 5 lbs a few years back.It was well researched in many open discussions.Ours is now 40lbs (trad bows, 35 compounds) which is more than enough for any animals that live here.I can only assume other States DNR guys work the same way.I think they know what they are doing.
If you're a seasoned hunter, you know borderline equipment for reasons mentioned above. Simple enough to respect the animal your after. That means chosing the right shot with the right equipment. Newbes are here to learn from our experience. I sure wouldn't want to see a newbe after a record moose with minimal tools & technique. There'll always be exceptions to the rule. Doesn't mean they need to be promoted. Total respect for the animal will reduce likelihood of wounding w/o recovery. Great analogy...killing w/.22. Good input here.
I cant figure out why guys are always trying to find the minimum required to kill an animal? There are just to many "what ifs" in hunting. What if the animal steps when you shoot? What about that limb you didnt see? What if you misjudge the distance? Nobody will say that you cant kill an elk with a perfect shot and a 40# bow, but there is a big difference between that and actually hunting with one. I have had numerous shoulder injuries in the last few years from weight lifting and jiu jitsu, but I shoot everyday and have been able to get my poundage back up to an acceptable level. I didnt do that for any macho reason, but to help make sure that an errant shot has a better chance of still resulting in a recovered animal. I think just about anyone can get to 55# with work and practice. Do all you can for the animals you hunt, we owe it to them.
I think threads like this are interesting. I'm planning on going up to 50-52 pounds because my elbow & shoulder are feeling much better. I don't, however, think I can go above that. I was hoping that 50-52 lbs and shooting accurately would leave me WELL within the "safe" perameters for hunting elk and moose someday. I do want to hunt both.
-Charlie
As a wildlife biologist and whitetail bowhunting guide at bowhunting only Willow Point Island a few years back..I am speaking from a little experience. I have mentioned this before, but I have seen countless bowhunters from all over North America come in with the fast, light, flat shooting arrow philosophy with no regard to mass or momentum. This was simply due to not knowing.
The penetration of these arrows was consistently terrible. It was terrible because they used light weight arrows. I know because I tracked these deer with dogs nearly everyday. Some of the deer we would later find dead only because of dogs. Some of the deer were found and killed by the dogs otherwise would not have died due to not receiving fatal penetration. It was amazing the high percentage of shots that would not get good penetration.
But hey...ya gotta have that fast arrow.
The other guides, however, used the same type high performance bows with heavier arrows and heavy broadheads. They destroyed deer.
"While some think that someone shooting a lighter bow weight than they use is unethical"
I am currently pulling 69-70 lbs. because I want to use all the personal potential possible to harvest the animal even if the arrow hits the "not so perfect" spot. If I practiced proficiently with 75 lbs. that is what I would hunt with.
James..I think your quote is usually the other way around. It seems that the bow holders that physically can't pull the heavy bow are the ones that think and say it is not important for others to use heavy arrows or bows.
Read the post..everyone has an example of how there light weight arrows passed through the soft tissue of (lung,heart,gut) of animals which I agree with. Where are the examples of what their light arrows did when it didn't "hit the boiler room".
There is some good real life research on this subject but that research doesn't come from a bow holder that can't a heavy bow.
"Some people always assume the bigger gun is always best when in reality it is not always the case."
If you are referring to bows..then yes I think generally speaking the bigger bow practiced with proficiently is better than the smaller bow practiced with proficiently.
orion, i wasn't comparing elephant to elk or moose and wasn't comparing moose to elk. i have killed around 45 elk, more than that of deer, and over 200 black bear from 250-500+ pounds.
elk hide is elk hide, elk ribs are elk ribs. never had any trouble killing cows or bulls with legal for wa. state bows. a 250# black bear is easy to zip an arrow through. so is one over 500#.
been there, done that, many many times.
The original question:
"How many hunt elk/moose with under 50# and why?"
I am trying to get up to 50-52lbs comfortably. If that hurts, then I won't do it. I'm fairly sure I will be able to shoot 50# without pain. I'm not sure I would want to hunt a big animal with less than 50# and that is why my goal is 50-52 lbs.
That being said, I'm hoping that 50lbs, a sharp 2 blade head and a 600 grain arrow will get me out of the category of shooting a "questionable" set up.
I really never want to have that arguement.
-Charlie
Buckeye-
You may have already stated this, but what is your draw length? That can make a huge difference by itself. If I were you and had NO choice but to shoot 50#, I would make sure I had a razor sharp broadhead on about a 700 grain arrow, and keep the shots within 15 yards or so. I think the momentum carried by that setup would move you a little closer to where you want to be. Also, what type of bow? A really effecient and fast setup can really change things as well. Big difference between a 50# selfbow and a 50# ACS, Black Swan, etc...
Larry: I wasn't comparing elk or moose to elephants either, just pointing out the speciousness in the statement that size of the animal doesn't matter regarding penetration. It does. The original question asked about hunting elk or moose with less than 50# (trad) bows. There's a big difference between the size of a deer and an elk, and likewise between the size of an elk and a moose. They get successively bigger, with thicker,tougher hide, more muscle, bigger bones, more body mass to penetrate, etc. This isn't a matter of opinion. It's fact. Moving from deer to elk to moose, the arrow needs to become more efficient, pack more energy or momentum, whatever you want to call it, to get the same level of penetration.
Brack,
I don't think I woud go under 50lbs for big animals and my elbow/shoulder can't handle much more. That is why I set my goal there. With a good comfortable long limbed recurve, I draw 28 and a half. I don't shoot an ACS, but a good modern recurve none-the-less.
-Charlie
Quotei have killed around 45 elk, more than that of deer, and over 200 black bear from 250-500+ pounds.
:notworthy:
I doubt if anyone has ever killed as many bear with a bow as Larry.He does it the hard way too.Finds a track and follows it untill he gets to the bear and shoots an arrow through it. :scared:
Brack finally said what I was hoping someone would bring up, the issue of bow efficiency. This idea that there is some certain bow weight for such and such an animal is really flawed. This should be as obvious as the point that continues to be labored here that different draw lengths on the same bow changes the weight.
I know for sure that a big FOC, low weight, Black Widow recurve shooting carbons will be every bit as deadly as a heavy weight, but inefficient, selfbow shooting low FOC wood arrows.
I've also gotten bad penetration and lost a big buck when my big FOC carbon flipped sideways mid-flight out of a 55# BW. I later killed two elk with the same setup. The first was with the controversial front quartering shot. That arrow passed diagonally through the elk from behind the front shoulder and stuck in the far opposite rear leg.
The other elk jumped the string, shot forward like out of a canon, and the arrow hit far back but passed through like butter.
Point being, arrow flight is equally important. With an 80# bow, who knows, maybe the buck would have died even with bad arrow flight. With a 50# or lower BW I'm sure the elk would have died too.
Son and I have had great luck with 50# recurves (27 1/2" draws) on moose, black bears, whitetails and mulies. Have upped our setup now using carbon arrows, 100 gr inserts and 170 gr 4 blade Zwickeys. Want more weight up front for greater penetration. This setup flies GREAT out of our bows and am impressed with their performance thus far on targets and one decent black bear this spring. I have always found that shooting this setup that many consider marginal, shot placement is key, and arrow and bow matchup, broadhead sharpness etc are all part of the equation for putting these critters down effectively. Know one's own limitations as well!! It can be done for sure.
I believe the old adage is true...."Shoot the heaviest bow you can accurately".
There's a lot of good info on this thread. Anyone care to post there setups and number of kills. I shoot 50 to 55 lbs (mostly 50 now) and 425-550 grain arrows for everything. 1 young elk (48 lbs titan 550 grain arrow) first arrow double lunged at about ten yards fletching caught the exit hole and a second that broke the femure at 45yards 260 grain griz up front, I have 22 other deer and hog kills with the same setup (425 grain arrows with snuffers and magnus 2)and get exits most of the time unless I shoot them tight 1/4ing away. Anyway I tried to keep this short so lets here others setups and arrow weights, oh I'm back to the 425 grain arrows for everything.