Being an English Teacher and Professor, I like reading essays. Lately, I purchased 2 or David Peterson's books ("Man Made of Elk" and "The Hunter's Heart: Essays on Bloodsport") and TJ Conrads' "The Traditional Bowhunters Handbook." The Peterson books in particular really touched on the biggest issue in hunting... death and the fact that our sport requires something to die. I would like to start a discussion thread that touches on this important issue.
So, let me ask: If hunting requires death in Nature, and we claim to love Nature, should we hunt at all?
Here is my take, very briefly. Nature is both beautiful and brutal. Life feeds off of life. When I hunt, I participate in that cycle while simultaneously reconnecting with a part of me and humanity that is primal, essential, and spiritual. That is what gets me out of bed in the cold dark or makes me endure the rain, snow, wind, etc.... the shivers, the need to go to the bathroom, hunger, etc... all to spend a day in Nature as a participant in it, not just an observer of it. This requires a reverence for the animals, a bit of mourning, maybe regret? I'll stop there...
What do you all think?
That pretty much sums up how I feel about it. I think alot of folks who are "in to" nature can't begin to comprehend the full extent of being "in to" nature without knowing the bitter-sweetness of a successfull, and unsuccessfull hunt.
ethan
First off, I never regret harvesting an animal. The day I regret it, I'll quit. With that said, I respect each and every animal I harvest. I believe God placed wild game on earth to feed us. More than us, they feed each other. Does one regret eating a hamburger? A cow was slaughtered for it. Some people hunt for food, yet others hunt for the sport and eat the food. The ones that are upsetting are the ones who take the game and discard the food. Yes, we endure alot to harvest game. Why? Because it is the passion for the sport. Why does a professional athlete go through what he does to play a few games? Because he loves the sport. Thats how I feel about hunting. We all are participants of nature. But more than not, were mostly just observing.
Mike
I think one life is just as valuable as another. If you eat meat you would be a hypocryte to get upset if somebody shoots a deer and eats it. Tags and the tax on hunting equiptment actually is supposed to help manage habitat and make the animals more healthy. I would say the great population of animals that we hunt is proof positive that hunting is very good for the over all health of the animals. In order for us to live something has to die.
I think the people who somehow believe or teach their kids that all animals get along and the cute cuddly - mother nature is so nice theory (not sure a better way to describe) are really living in such a disconnected dream world.
I enjoy, love nature in all its grandure, from the pure brutal side, death and all, to all the little neat things you may happen to see being out there. Saw a little lizard eating a cockroach the other day! cool.
To love nature for me is to embrace and participate meaning something, I hope, is going to fall prey to me, and then feeling of coming home with meat - very cool, and truly my family eats alot of wild game.
Yep - I hunt, I fish, and I trap - enjoy it all. Now you could get into the whole enjoyment of the process of getting ready for the hunt, and the comraderie(sp?).
J
QuoteOriginally posted by leatherneck:
First off, I never regret harvesting an animal. The day I regret it, I'll quit.
Mike
I agree... to qualify. I never regret the shot I take or the kill. I respect the animals and their sacrifice for me. I believe every animal taken is a gift from God, a beautiful gift.
I'm a predator. It's innate. I don't fight it. I embrace it.
I don't "enjoy" killing. I accept it as part of the cycle.
Remorse? A little. Regret? Never.
Genisis 1:25-26: God made all kinds of wild animals. He made all kinds of livestock. He made all kinds of creatures that move along the ground. And God saw that it was good. Then God said "Let us make man in our likeness. Let them rule over the fish in the waters and the birds of the air. Let them rule over the livestock and over the whole earth. Let them rule over all of the creatures that move along the ground."
The notion of "regret" or "mourning" an animal is foreign to me in every sense of the word. Respect? Yes! Give Thanks and Praise for? Yes! Feel bad about killing one to feed family, friends, and possibly complete strangers? Never!
I am filling the role that God intended.
I swung both ways in my day... I used to be a VEGAN for crying out loud! Then it hit me - HUNGER!
Trying to come to terms with the fact that I was wasting away and fighting my natural instincts I had a fabulous revelation one day: The least impacting, smallest footprint lifestyle a human can have is to hunt and gather. Even 'politically correct' farming is a declaration of war on the land, with boundaries and a pre-determination as to what will and will not live on a particular plot of land. It also takes a lot of trust in the Lord to set out into the wilderness and know that He provides us with the skill, knowledge and game to sustain us.
Not to mention, I don't know of a wolf, lion, or other predator who will bring the flesh of the animal together with spices from around the world, reverence from the heart and a prayerful thanksgiving amongst friends and family. We offer the animal a quicker death and level of adoration and respect that no other predator can come close to. IMHO.
We offer the animal a quicker death and level of adoration and respect that no other predator can come close to. IMHO.
Thats a fact I seen it myself.
Death is part of nature,all part of the never ending circle. I hunt not to kill but to hunt,and the result can feed me and my family and friends.
Real good thoughts here already.
Hunting is as natural as our admiration & respect for the animals we hunt. If not, we'd all be hunting at the meat market.
NorthernCaliforniaHunter, I enjoyed your post very much.
I didn't have any ephiphany, nor any mystical awakening of any kind, I'm just drawn to the hunt.
I was introduced to it by my dad in 1954, and so it goes.
mrpenquin... you summed it up very well. I am now in my early 50's, so I can say there was a time... there was a time in my early teens, I could walk out my back door with my longbow or shotgun. And within 50 yards, I could begin to walk all day as far as I cared to, and never worry about "private property" and "no tresspassing". Now I have been a hunter ed instructor most of my adult life, and when I look at the faces of those young people today, I see the excitement and wonderlust for adventure that I had and still have. Yes.. it is a wonderful life! And I thank God for it.
I do not regret the kill. But I do have "Hunter's Remorse". These means I have compassion, and I am glad for that.
To quote Thoreau, on his hunt in the Maine Woods, "I went to the woods, so that I could live deliberately, to see wehat I could find there, and learn from it. So that when I came to die, I would not discover that I had not lived".
And yes, I am still anxious to know, what is around the next bend.
I hunt because it is in my blood. All I have learned is because of a desire that has always been with me, I thank god every time I harvest any game. I didn't have a mentor my dad did very little hunting so it was the school of hard knocks. I wouldn't change a thing. I will hunt until the cycle of life takes me.
I think that some of us are genetically disposed to hunt. I've had the urge all my life, and at 60 I've taken the lives of hundreds of animals. The only ones I regret are the ones I didn't find. The losses just make me try harder to keep it from happening again, but I'll never regret hunting or killing cleanly.
We evolved as a community, each member having traits and skills that contribute to the good of the whole. Some of us are meant to hunt, others to perform other functions that are critical to a community's survival. I'm a hunter, plain and simple, no excuses, no apologies.
QuoteOriginally posted by NorthernCaliforniaHunter:
I swung both ways in my day... I used to be a VEGAN for crying out loud! Then it hit me - HUNGER!
Trying to come to terms with the fact that I was wasting away and fighting my natural instincts I had a fabulous revelation one day: The least impacting, smallest footprint lifestyle a human can have is to hunt and gather. Even 'politically correct' farming is a declaration of war on the land, with boundaries and a pre-determination as to what will and will not live on a particular plot of land. It also takes a lot of trust in the Lord to set out into the wilderness and know that He provides us with the skill, knowledge and game to sustain us.
Not to mention, I don't know of a wolf, lion, or other predator who will bring the flesh of the animal together with spices from around the world, reverence from the heart and a prayerful thanksgiving amongst friends and family. We offer the animal a quicker death and level of adoration and respect that no other predator can come close to. IMHO.
I enjoyed reading the above post. Thanks!
First... Allow me to say that the words "sport" and "hunting" will never be used by myself in the same sentance.
Second... Regret? I think not. Don't confuse the need to celebrate our human condition and where it puts us within the hunt. When my (our) emotions stir after taking a game animals life the feelings are deep with thanks to our creator. Maybe that can be confused with remorse, but not for me.
Sometimes I feel the only "real" things in life are the love I have for my wife and... Hunting. Work, bills puttin' up with the BS in the city is all so I can keep a (lifestyle) of a hunter.
Thank You! Great Topic...
... mike ...
It is easy to seperate yourself from the fact that your life depends on something else dying if you only buy your meat pre-packaged. The guts, and volumes of blood are dealt with by someone else. Somehow, the animal is less dead...cleaner, easier. Far too many people would rather not think of how the meat became available to them.
Hunters do not feel uncomfotable with this, because we have long ago realized our place, and that no matter how "civilized", we are NEVER removed from the cylce of life. Even a person who consumes no meat, is not above causing the death of animals. Being alive causes death.
Having reverence for all life is a natural state of being, just as being a predator is a natural state of being. The more civilized we become as a society, the further from ANY natural state of being we get.
The question of ethics may actually be NOT teaching our children the truth about where our food comes from.
A chicken coop in the backyard to show little girls that eggs do not come from a store. The reality of raising a turkey for Thanksgiving dinner, when the time comes for the difficult task of plucking the feathers, and stinky guts.
When these things are not taught to a young one, they become difficult, if not impossible to fully grasp as an adult.
Not teaching the truth...now there is a question of ethics.
In order for me to live and thrive, something else has to die. I didn't design the system, I may not even like it. It is, however, ingrained in me and my make up, maybe on a cellular level. I can certainly live without hunting, but I don't want to and choose to participate, for a lot of reasons, the most outward is that it is what I am.
I am not gonna hide behind a butcher's apron and eat meat but despise the part about killing. I am not gonna be a vegan, or even a mere vegetarian . . . ever.
I am, therefore I hunt.
ChuckC
I simply accept the fact that hunting
involves killing and that I really
like venison.
At the grocery store,
the crap they try to pass
off as meat ah never mind...
Yin and Yang, black and white, life and death. Opposite sides of the same coin.
Yup, can't have life with out death. EVERYTHING alive depends on death, even "inanimate" things, like TV's, cars, and bows, depend on the death of something in order to exist. We can't separate our lives from nature and the so called "circle of life". Good topic BTW! :thumbsup: Now if we could just get the bunny huggers to understand!
Killing is part of hunting. We hunt to eat and survive. We can choose today, of course, to purchase our meat, but this is in a way dishonest, as it seperates us from the fact that other living organisms must die to keep us alive. Even a vegitarian must kill plants to stay alive. Plants and animals are only slightly different on the cellular level.
I do not care for hunting being called a "sport". Sports are things we do for fun and involve competition.Basketball and baseball are sports. Hunting is far more important than any sport and involves the death of another living being.
I feel that calling hunting a sport is detrimental and had led to the competition between hunters (horn porn - my buck scored higher than yours) and the idea that animals are killed for "fun".
I agree that "sport" is somewhat of a misnomer when it comes to hunting. The seriousness of it makes it inappropriate to lump it in with bocce ball or badminton.
For me the ethical questions regarding killing whitetails have been easily resolved by their exploding numbers. There are many places locally where the deer have far surpassed holding capacity. Thankfully, most reasonable people now regard hunting as the only cost effective and ethical way to control their numbers.
Our species has been on this planet for a long time. For most of that time we were characterized as hunter/gathers. I don't know why so many people want to run away and hide from this legacy. Instead of trying to deny my predator instincts I acknowledge and celebrate them every time I go out in the field.
Lets face it folks, weather we like it or not, hunting is a sport. Very few people hunt to survive these days. Therefore, if you don't HAVE to hunt to survive, why do you do it? Otso said it, sports are things we do for fun. Isn't hunting fun? So you mean to tell me you kill something just because you like the taste of the meat? Talk about unethical. No, most of us do it because we like the challenge, being in nature, for the sport of it. There is nothing wrong with calling hunting a sport. Not all sports have competition. It only becomes a competition if you let it. Just my opinion of course.
Mike
Mr. Penguin,
As a student (and a professor no less) of literature, I am sure you could speak volumes regarding how the writings of a culture defines its views and beliefs. The portion of the publishing industry that caters to the outdoor pursuits, and specifically hunting, has seen excellent growth over the last few years. It seems that almost anyone can write a book about hunting and get it published now.
But even with industry growth, and all of our efforts at teaching others why hunting is integral to our heritage and culture, the number of hunters is still decreasing. My perspective shows this to be simple demographics. More and more people are leaving rural areas of the country and flocking to the cities (less than 1% of the population is still involved in agriculture). I feel this is similar to what happened in post-civil war America. Opportunities are drying up; people go looking for a means to sustain themselves. In many parts of the country individuals have less access to areas where hunting is allowed or lack the resources to get to hunting areas. As we move into the cities, we divorce ourselves from how the non-human influenced world works.
I think the idea of "nature" is manufactured. The word conjures an idyllic world where the lion lies down with the lamb, skunks don't stink and deer talk. Walt Disney did more to distort the public's view of wildlife than anyone else. Our society's attachment to what one author called "Charismatic Macro-fauna" has caused no end of trouble. Yes, by all means save the whales! They are cute (or at least photogenic) and easy to carry images of on television, but those ugly little shrimpy looking things? Krill? Why, they look like bugs! Who cares about those? Never mind that without them, whales would be on the soup line so to speak. I doubt we will ever see a t-shirt that proclaims SAVE THE SEA SLUGS!! The same individuals who look down on us for hunting and killing animals are pretty adamant about not sharing their world with what are generally considered vermin or anything that might make the lawn look bad. The value scale seems to be skewed. Everyday we see footage of people protesting hunting. Where are the placards shouting SAVE THE COCKROACHES or TERMITES ARE PEOPLE TOO! What about PUT AN END TO ANTIBIOTICS, GERMS HAVE RIGHTS! It is pretty tough to garner donations if your poster critter is drab or unattractive.
My first experiences with death were in conjunction with hunting. It brought an understanding that our existence is fleeting. How can you appreciate life without an understanding of death? Back in the day, whenever that actually was, if you wanted to live, things had to die. I love to hunt. The pursuit of game defines my character. I suppose I should say I like to kill animals; cleanly, efficiently and with as little suffering as possible.
It would be so easy to wax philosophical about what the hunt means. We could put up an existential argument, and as traditional archers, invoke Kierkegaard and say, "The task must be made difficult, for only the difficult inspires the noble-hearted". I think we should be honest and say we are no more elevated than those hunters who recorded their exploits in pigments on cave walls. We are driven by the same needs, the same biology and the same phsycology. Our publications just have higher production value.
Thanks for starting this dialouge.
OkKeith
WOW Keith, very well said.
Leatherneck,
See, that's what happens when I have too much time on my hands.
If I was busier, the post would have read,
"Yup, I like to hunt too."
Thanks,
OkKeith
Very good, Keith, and well stated.
Personally I don't think "ethics" has anything to do with normal hunting, whether you call it "sport" or not. I've never considered hunting to be an ethical dilemma. We must eat meat to be healthy, and the meat doesn't kill itself.
Killing for thrills, just to see something die- now we're talking ethics!
I hunt because I love to! its not to sustain life, or because my faimly needs meat to survive! its just a love of the outdoors and a means to get away from what we call every day life!! Great post BTW there has been some excellant things said! I aggree, all the way around!! Jason
Interesting what Don Stokes says about some people are hunters and some not. I've seen this too. I was shooting and killing since I was 10 years old. I just absolutely love the wild, animals, and especially hunting.
My father doesn't hunt and my son doesn't hunt. I took a friend's kid with me hunting last year because the friend said the kid was driving him crazy, wanting to shoot and hunt squirrels and all. He was right. And the kid has all the natural instincts.
I also agree with Don's statement about ethics not playing a role in hunting. When you start to put ethics on anything you are assuming some moral standard that governs overall behavior or thought. If you do that you open up a true can of worms.
Well to be honest I don't think about such things.I like to hunt so I do it.I like eating the animals I hunt so I kill them so I can.That is about as deep as I go on it. ;)
Wow... this really took off!
The discussion of whether or not hunting can be considered a "sport" is rather intriguing. I've wrestled with that myself. Is shooting from a tree a sport? Is using bates, decoys, calls, etc... sport? Interesting questions. I agree with Leatherneck about calling hunting a sport. I personally find immense joy in it. Look at me, here I am in July, taking time to participate in a conversation about it!! That speaks of my passion for it alone.
As for ethics, there are ethics in hunting. These ethics stem from responsibility. For instance, I often let more animals go than I shoot because the shot doesn't feel right. There may be only one small hole to shoot through or maybe the animal is a bit outside of a range that I feel comfortable shooting. To be ethical is to be responsible. It is respecting the animal's life and death. The overall ethical question of hunting is simple... life feeds off of life. Even green beans were once alive.
That all said, I think there are some practices that, though legal, seem unethical to me. Most obviously, to me, is baiting. It just doesn't seem right to put a stinky barrel out to draw in bears and take pot shots. Canned hunts over baits seem unethical. Trophy hunting is unethical. The notion of shooting an animal SOLELY for the size of its rack or beard, or weight seems wrong. Don't misunderstand me, I would love to have the opportunity to take a big buck or tom, but if I do, it should be the result of my work and luck, not the price I paid. It MUST be about the hunt, not the size of the dead animal at the end. It MUST be about the meat, not simply a head on wall.
So, I guess, I would say that the larger ethical question we all agree on: hunting is as natural as rain falling from the sky. That said, as Don Stokes said "Killing for thrills, just to see something die- now we're talking ethics." I would add, killing it for the thrill of its horns, beard, claws, skins, weight, or simply to be listed in some silly book that has a bunch of numbers in it, that's unethical.
mrpenguin,
I think the correlation to sports is whether hunting should be thrown in with the "ball" sports, such as football, basketball, etc., not whether certain types, or techniques, of hunting, are sporting.
I suppose you could make anything a sport in one sense, but, generally, sports have rules.
There ARE ethics in hunting but they are YOUR ethics. But the only way to truly make true ethics for hunting is to first define what is or is not hunting and then try to determine parameters for all the possible variables and/or scenarios that one could encounter within the framework that you define as "hunting". Once you do all of that you have basically created a set of rules that will define those ethics. At that point you have just created a sport, or a religion.
But I think what I, and some others, are trying to say is that we do not necessarily want to go down that road. I think many of us love hunting because we get away from laws, rules, and ethics that are imposed upon us by culture, sometimes overwhelmingly. In the wilderness we are more free, and we don't want that to change.
Kieth you made some excellent points. I really liked that. For me to read a post that long you better say something interesting fast or I will just skip it all together. Very well done.
Steve B. Fair enough... I guess I just don't like some of the tactics used today. They focus on the kill not the process. That is my litmus test for ethical hunting: the focus should be the hunt, not the kill. Of course we all want to be successful and kill the animals we hunt, but without the work of the process-i.e. riding an ATV up to a blind or tree with barrels set up for bears for a guarantied kill where the hunt simply chooses which bear is the biggest-is not really hunting as it should be in a culture that does not necessitate hunting for subsistence. Just my thoughts...
I like what I'm reading and the respect for others posts that goes with it. I would like to ask though, do we not follow rules in hunting? I'm not talking about the DNR regulations, I'm talking about the rules of the land. Like don't shoot a sow with cubs(which is legal in some areas), or to put a deer down that has been seriousely wounded. Are these not rules that we as hunters try to follow? We all follow rules (written and unwritten). That is what shows our true ethics.
The good thing about hunting is it is not a team sport.No set of rules set by others to govern you.If you don't want to hunt bait,use dogs ect, you simply don't have to.It is pretty much one of the last things a man can do.As long as it is within the law any ethics is a personal decision that should not be looked down on or tryed to change by others that think different. jmo
QuoteOriginally posted by NorthernCaliforniaHunter:
I swung both ways in my day... I used to be a VEGAN for crying out loud! Then it hit me - HUNGER!
Trying to come to terms with the fact that I was wasting away and fighting my natural instincts I had a fabulous revelation one day: The least impacting, smallest footprint lifestyle a human can have is to hunt and gather. Even 'politically correct' farming is a declaration of war on the land, with boundaries and a pre-determination as to what will and will not live on a particular plot of land. It also takes a lot of trust in the Lord to set out into the wilderness and know that He provides us with the skill, knowledge and game to sustain us.
Not to mention, I don't know of a wolf, lion, or other predator who will bring the flesh of the animal together with spices from around the world, reverence from the heart and a prayerful thanksgiving amongst friends and family. We offer the animal a quicker death and level of adoration and respect that no other predator can come close to. IMHO.
i love that Juan way to go :clapper:
a good topic i like a lot of the reply's lots of good interesting points of view
i started hunting young, killed my first big game at 7 years old, we lived in the bush in South Africa
we had no tv
when i got back from boarding school if i was not put to work, i grabbed my pellet gun and me and my German short hair pointer would go hunt. i guess at the time i did not understand why or actually did not even take the time to think "why" i was doing it. It was just in me ..
Now when i look back at it as a basic instinct deeply bread and past down from our hunter gatherer forefathers from the beginning.
My hunting dog was the same no one showed him how to hunt, but he knew ..deep inside him the same basic instinct ran in his veins passed down from his forefathers
Even back then it was not for survival, game way plentiful we killed a lot, but we used what we killed and enjoyed doing it.
from then iv done what i can in life with what i determine basic instincts, law's of attraction, i dont used a bible to tell me what is wrong or rite my conscience does that for me every time ( it never fails to tell me when iv done something wrong) , simpler the better (however simple things can be very complex like... traditional archery) but you can always whittle it back down to something simple
iv looked into it and discussed it in great depth with others but i cannot override and always come back to that instinct
thats why i hunt
Leatherneck,
I'm saying what James Wrenn and others are saying.
Laws and ethics are two different things but they can be the same thing. The law says I can/cannot shoot such and such and animal, at such and such a time of year, etc.. Ethics say what is fair, decent, proper, etc., but they also say what is right. So shooting a cub bear is illegal, and unethical. But shooting a boar at 100 yds might only be unethical...but by who's standard? Ethics are more subjective than laws.
But if all you are saying is that the laws frame the ethical standards then basically you are saying what we are. Anything else, like treestands, ATV's, compound bows, and long shots, are personal......unless, of course, you are trying to make hunting something that it is not.
mrpenguin,
I agree with you and so I hunt the way I do, and probably the way you do. But as soon as I say that what I am doing is right, or that someone else is wrong, then all of a sudden we have to sit down and define everything that we believe concerning hunting and give good reasons for them. Because, if your reasons are not good, you will not have much of an impact in changing the minds of others, and what you will be left with are not converts, but enemies.
I really think one of the reasons that this ethical thing comes up regularly, if you really think about it, is because we struggle to develop some standard of whether we are doing what we are doing, right. We naturally want to have these bounds in order to place ourselves, or others, onto this imaginary scoreboard in order to massage our egos and point fingers at the other camps who are doing it different, or wrong.
That is why we are forever looking for some icons, living or dead, who can help us define what a great shot is, or what a great hunter is, and whether this guy, or that guy, will work as an idol in our newly defined sport or religion.
Having grown up in the country, where life and death is all around you - whether in the cycle of raising and slaughtering domestic animals for food, or in the natural world - there was never a question for me of right or wrong regarding hunting. It was just one method that life and death played out - with the key difference that both predator and prey had a reasonable chance of success in hunting.
What could be more fulfilling or human than finding, outwitting, and harvesting food for the table? On the farm it is an unnatural human devised environment where the animal is merely a piece of "potential meat" (with no doubt about the outcome), while when hunting it is a more natural cycle where predator and prey lock into a common quest for survival - with the prey winning more times than not.
Do I feel a letdown after a successful hunt? Yes, but it is a good feeling of accomplishment, compassion for the animal, and the knowledge that I am now responsible for turning the fruits of my labor into tasty meals, and that I am leaving what remains as a hearty feast for the local wild scavengers.
Personally I cherish the long hard hunt that may result in a doe as much, if not more than, a short easy hunt that bags a nice buck. It is about the process and personal accomplishment, not the "trophy" that others may appreciate. And knowing that you can take care of yourself and your family isn't that bad either! :)
I've greatly enjoyed reading through this thread. I've already noted Juan's post as a standout amongst the many great posts in this thread, but I must also say that Keith's post was equally outstanding! I have little to add as you guys have expressed my feelings on this topic in written words far better than mine.
Best
John 14:16 - "And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever - the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you."
In other words, LISTEN TO YOUR HEART. :campfire:
This is another post I will reply to before reading what others have written as I wish to have this come from my own mind and spirit "unflavored" by others that have already spoken.
Hunting is a primal drive within us. Some deny it. Some feel guilty for it. These emotional responses spring from a person's upbringing and educational endoctrination. The few feral children that have been found in history have always been found to be omnivores with a large part of their diet being any and all sources of animal protien they can acquire. None have ever been found to be solely vegetarian or even prodominately so. As a lioness or a wolf feel nothing but possibly a sense of accomplishment and a thrill at the kill a human that was honest with hisself would admit to feeling the same way. To mourn the passage of the animal we have killed for food and all the other reasons we hunt is not something to regret or feel remorse over. Often times hunters talk about the responsibilty they have as hunters to the game they pursue. All that is usually said is platitudes for the sake of the ears of the nonhunting. We don't owe it to the animals we hunt to follow the law and the ethics we set up before ourselves about hunting and fishing. The law is about politics and the ethics to appease those we feel threatened by as well as the code we have each personally chosen to live our lives by. So we owe how we hunt to other humans and ourselves, not to the game we pursue. We often say we owe the animals a humane death. This is something we do to save ourselves turmoil more than the animals suffering. I say this because of all the predators in the would ONLY man kills humanely. Cats strangle their prey, dogs disembowel them, hyenas hold them in place and eat them alive. All chase them down first and if you've ever been chased by a bully as a child you know the fear and stress that brings; and you know the encounter will not be lethal. A squirrel knows the goshawk means to kill and eat him. The goshawk does it cleaner than most animal predators but still far below the human, humane standard.
I've made a bad shot on an animal, spent hours following the trail, coming up empty handed and feeling sick to my stomach. All the emotions one feels at a time like that stem from learned behaviour. There is nothing wrong with that as it is one of the things that makes us human. We owe the animals we hunt what we decide we owe them, because we decide to owe it to them. They only expect to have to watch their backsides everyday.
One thing I forgot to mention before part of the reason for game laws and hunting ethics is to make the act harder to be successful at so that when successful one is more appreciative. You see we are such effective predators that if we didn't put limits on ourselves we could concievably kill everything.
Hunting is not a sport, hunting is a primal. spiritual, mystic part of the human psyche from everylasting to everlasting the drive to hunt is in our very makeup.
Oh and for those of you that think Native Americans "lived in balance with Nature and never killed more than they could use, etc."
The most widely held theory of why the mastedon went extinct is because aboriginal Americans hunted them to that point. They ran whole herds off cliffs. They encircled them with fire and pelted them with atlatl darts and arrows until every herd member was down. Yes they used every bit of everyone they could; and yes they did only kill as much as they could eat. However that was as many as there were because the tribe, like the herd or pack or wolves, always grows to the maximum caring capacity of the land. Make jerky out of a whole herd of mastedon and no babies or small children die of starvation over Winter.
So much of what hunting is now in the 21st century is shallow in it's meaning and petty in its ends. It is held up as a measure of manhood but it is not anymore. It is too often the measure of how much money someone is willing to spend to have someone else do all the leg and brain work to put the so called hunter where he or she needs to be to make the shot on a "trophy" animal.
For me hunting is a trilling wire in my blood that makes me wait longingly for Autumn or seek other climes in other seasons to answer the primordial call of what my ancestors have left in my very cells.
YES!!! YES!!! YES!!!!
EXCELLENT!
Mr. Penguin,
Thanks again for starting this thread and the discussion that has followed, you have no idea how much I enjoy it.
Ethics embodies the slippery slope a lot of people like to wail about. These issues defy gravity in that they can slide both up and down that greased hillside. Earlier you posted what you believe is ethical in regards to hunting over baits and that ethical hunting is really about the hunt, not the kill.
What is a definition of bait? The dictionary says that bait is anything that serves as an enticement or something used to lure fish or other animals into danger so they can be trapped or killed. The corn feeder is bait and using one is baiting. This use of feed (corn, sugar beets or the latest bagged sweet-treat) as a lure is legal in my state and many others. Some think that the whole act itself is not cricket. Others are OK with it based on a sliding scale of distance from a feeder. My home state of Oklahoma has even codified this by saying that you must be 100 yards from a feeder if you are turkey hunting. No such law exists for deer.
What other things fit the definition of bait? Any of the deer pee, estrus bomb and tarsal stink type products are bait according to our definition. Hunting row crops or planting food plots fits the definition of bait. A decoy would be a kind of bait. I am not trying to end this deliberation but if we are going to condemn the use of bait as unethical, we should include all types of bait. Otherwise, we are headed down gradient with limited friction when we try to say what is or is not kosher.
What about the idea that the hunt is about the hunt, not the kill? This is not true for me, it is about the kill. That's why I am there. Hunting can not be defined without killing in the discourse. If the purpose was to only hunt, as in engage in tracking, following or pursuing game to its final location, the killing is gratuitous. If the killing is gratuitous, would that not be unprincipled by the idea that killing for no purpose is unethical? If the reason for the hunt is not the kill, then a camera would be a more ethical choice than a bow.
I say the hunt is all about the kill. It is the underlying reason for being in the woods with a bow. Killing something with my hands or a tool in order to use it does not bother me. I don't even believe that the only justified reason for killing something is for food. Coming home empty handed means an unsuccessful hunt. That doesn't bother me at all. Hunting is one of a few things in my life where success or failure really doesn't matter to anyone but me.
Thanks again for starting this thread. It has been a lot of fun.
OkKeith
i have read all the posts on this thread with a great deal of interest. the diversity of opinions seem to reflect to some degree on what sort of environment people grew up in and life experiences after reaching adulthood.
i grew up killing things for food. i still have the mindset i had when i was 5-6 years old and, with my brother, killed grouse, fish, and anything else that looked like it was edible. (we spent every summer alone in the mountains keeping track of our fathers cattle).
i attach no spiritual significance to killing something i want to eat, i really would'nt kill something i overly respected, i have never killed anything in gods name.
i have never taken a picture of a dead animal and really have no emotion about looking at pictures other people take other than wondering sometimes why they took that picture, don't kill for sport, don't really "hunt" in the same context as has been expressed here. i go kill an animal if i decide i want some of that kind of meat to eat. no other reason, no emotion before, during or after except the satisfaction of enjoying the meat.
guess i am very pragmatic in my view on most things.
i have a bunch of geldings and cow dogs i use for ranch work and have never "petted" any of them. i like them all and take very good care of them, but they are tools i use just like the equipment i have and i take very good care of that too!
I must say larryh, very different perspective. Although I don't totally agree with some of the issues, I respect your decisions and the way you stand beside them.
Keith made a good statement. We are all out there for the kill(one way or another) or we would not carry a weapon at all. I can say that I enjoy everything else about the hunt, but ultimately it's for the harvest.
Larry,
I am familiar with your view point, and honor it as the view point of every adult male I respected when I was growing up. Both grandfathers, all my uncles and my Dad had much the same mind set.
When I was very young, but mobile enough to follow Dad on quail hunts, I didn't understand why his English Setters didn't want to "play". They seemed aloof, and down right onery cusses sometimes. He would tell me,
"Son, they're working dogs, not pets. Leave'em alone and let them do their job. THAT'S what makes them happy."
I admit to being a little softer hearted towards my Labradors (too soft hearted according to every woman in my life), but I have to also say that when I was a kid, Granpa had one particular mule that I would pray for God to kill on the spot!
The perception of kindness is no measure of how a person feels about things. There are quite a few people who profess to love animals, but support actions that are actually harmful to individuals of a species and to populations as a whole.
OkKeith
I have not read all the responses just the first comment/question. I believe that I was given by God, instincts and with the self preservation instinct comes eating. I believe that taking enjoyment in only the death of some thing is wrong. But I will eat what I kill. The true fulfillment that one gains from being in nature is not the same for me when I am just hiking or out stump shooting. The fullest feeling of freedom, fulfillment and being a part of life is when I am on a hunt. When the prey is dead I am only beginning the job/ task there is now my responsibility to that animal and to the OLD man who taught me this wonderful way. For I only wish I could hunt with Him again one happy day, maybe in the next world. I also must say I hope that the boy of mine will feel this connection to the earth, God or what ever y'all might call it. And any one out there might still hear their Grandpa saying If you didn't get skunked once in a while you would not want to go so much, and keep that head down quit peeping, I sure miss that. I bid all whom hunt a safe day in the field.
Some on here have mentioned that "we" no longer NEED to hunt.
Personally, I don`t believe this. In fact, I believe many people are lost, and never really get comfortable with life because of an empty space. A space meant for our predatory actions, and the chemicals released by our glands, when our brains tell them to do so.
Could be, for some of us, hunting is as important as any other part of our lives. Could I live without hunting? For a time I guess, but I would not be me.
Could be, that in this day, with the way things are, hunting is more important than ever!!!
This Spanish philosopher wrote in Meditations On Hunting "One does not hunt in order to kill; on the contrary, one kills in order to have hunted..." Jose Ortega y Gasset
All i have to say.....WOW. This has to be one of the most interesting threads I have ever read. I can connect to almost everyone's words except for Californa about being a vegan. :clapper:
I grew up hunting,my family ate what we shot or caught,while it wasn't neccessary for survival it did help in the long run,not only that hunting provided a great family activity,where my father and uncles shared their knowledge with us.
In the Bible, Jacob had sons some were hunters and some not. I,m okay with that. I,ll not condem one who isn,t and would like to be treated the same. I didn,t always think this way, If you didn,t hunt I had no common ground with these people, but as you get older you find some. As far as baiting, my stand on that is I,ll walk in there shoes before I make a judgement. In some parts of Canada how many bears would die if it was not legal? How long before they got out of hand without baiting? I,ll not condem them because I haven,t been there. I got toasted on the subject of sneaking up on turkeys because it was more intresting to me, but the people who posted negitivly about have never hunted where I hunt. Hunt to fully enjoy the passion and be glad God gave you the passion, because some don,t have it.
Bing Crosbey's wife said, "he is a golfer who sings to support his golfing."
MO Sherpa told me, "I spend 2 weeks elk hunting and 50 weeks getting ready to do it again."
I have hunted since I was a kid. Sling shot, bow, BB gun, pellet gun, 22, 410, 12ga, wheelie, muzzle loader, now back to the bow. Its a progression that is common. Some stop at different points, but if you are on this site you understand.
We are only a couple thousand years past the hunter gatherer state that was (still is in some parts of the world) our evolved - or God given, depending on your beliefs - natural state for a long time before.
It seems normal to me that some folks are hunters, have a passion for it, have realized and embraced it. The goal is meat. But the goal is not the motivation. The motivation has to be a passion for the experience. If you've got it, why fight it?
A lot of great thoughts. I come the opposite of most, growing up in a non-hunting and fishing family. No bb guns, heck even darts were to dangerous for my mom. But it was always in me. Love animals, loved the outdoors. spent as much time as possible. Got to college and started bow hunting and progressed to all styles of hunting. As a result I have thought about this topic and discussed it with non hunters a lot. Ethics and laws are the product of a society, and a persons growth and opportunities. Laws are established to set a base of societal conduct. Game laws primarily to ensure the continuation of the species. The more well of a society or person the more they can afford to expand upon the limitations of the laws. If my hunting was a the main source of my meat, my ethics would be much different. Baiting, night hunting and taking any shot, marginal or not, would be come the norm. Anything to bring sustinance to me and mine. As a person that can afford to "buy" food if I do not bring home my own my ethics allow me to be more selective in how I hunt and the techniques I use. I try not to judge others for their choices as their life experiences vary from my own. I can only control what I do and how I move through life. I know for me to live something must die. Whenever possible I try to participate as much as possible in the process. I love the hunt and revel in all aspects, including the kill. I feel the hole i create in the woods when I remove a creature, but know it will be filled again. The need to be out in the woods and hunting is deep inside me and without it I would be incomplete.
Great thread!
Birth is natural, and death is natural. As humans we have ancient natural predatory instincts built into us. At some deep level, deep below our everyday thinking, we are all predatory. Those of us who hunt are answering the call to our predatory instincts in a natural and direct way. This is much better than being a non-hunting predator who answers his predatory instincts by letting them get twisted into preying on other humans. We have all seen that in big city violence and in corporate board room ruthlessness. I would rather be a hunter.
I eat, therefore I hunt.
Joe
QuoteOriginally posted by featherbuster:
All i have to say.....WOW. This has to be one of the most interesting threads I have ever read. I can connect to almost everyone's words except for Californa about being a vegan. :clapper:
That's WAS a vegan. Guess you missed that part ;)
Now where's that A1 sause?!!! :goldtooth: