I spoke to a younger guy 18 or so who just started bowhunting 3 years ago. During those 3 years he has killed 4 deer. That is better than what I did my first 3 years. Anyway, he went on to tell me that he had taken 2 bucks and 2 does. I congratulated him. He told me that the second buck was a spikehorn and that he regreted shooting it as soon as the arrow left the string. I asked him why. He said that he was ready to hold out for something bigger and that he should not have shot the younger buck. On top of that, the kid lives in PA, where while quality deer numbers may be improving, they are still extremely rare. In the back of my mind I was seriously thinking that this kid had been exposed to way too many hunting videos and deer magazines. You know...the ones where anything less than a 140 inch deer is a joke. I tried to nicely tell him that he was looking at things all wrong, and that he should be very proud of his accomplishments. I then told him that I bowhunted a good 10 to 12 years HARD, before I began to become somewhat selective, and that I live in Illinois, where big bucks are more common than most other states, and that even then it has been a tough road with alot of highs and lows. Some success has only come in the last few years or so. I then told him that he should hunt in whatever manner he wants but that in my opinion, he should just have fun and take whatever legal ethical shot presents itself.
I know some of you older guys on this site know what I am talking about. I mean I'm only 31 years old now, but when I started bowhunting there still were not tons of hunting videos out there, and as far as I know, almost none of them took place on fenced in property. Even though "Bowhunting October Whitetails" was filmed long before my time, this is what I remember watching over and over until the tape wore out in the VCR. (Thankfully, I was able to buy it on DVD a few years ago) Videos like that were great. Primal Dreams is the best hunting video ever produced.
I often wonder how much things have changed for you older gentlemen on this site. The guys that have been at this game for 30 or 40 years. I kinda felt bad for the young guy, but I think he understood what I was saying. I saw a hunting video awhile ago where some clown took his 9 year old daughter out to a greenfield in the south. He picked out a deer for her and let her shoot it with a rifle. The girl was way to young to have any opinion on whether she wanted to hunt big game, and she was really not all that excited about it. I doubt she will ever hunt again. Maybe it's just me.
I'm 42 not that much older than you however I have seen some changes in hunting that bug the snot out of me. I think most of these changes are media driven.
1) Respect for the game we chase is at a all time low! Far too many Ted wannabe's out there who have not put in the practice needed to make a clean humane kill. Then once one of these morons gets lucky he straps his deer to the hood of the truck and heads for the bar....to get good and drunk while bragging about what a "man" he is. Meanwhile his game meat has rotted and is inedible. While I'm at it if you don't eat what you kill your a sport killer and need serious physciatric help!
2) Respect for our fellow hunter is at a all time low, trespassing, snaking blinds, running a 4 wheeler through another hunters camp ect have become common place. Too many feel they have an automatic "right" to hunt, you don't you have the right to put in the necessary work to become a hunter some fail, others do not.
3) Respect for the habitat that provides us game animals in the first place is at a all time low. Wheelers have destroyed thousands of acres here in Alaska and else where. Mostly by folks who ride irresponsibly. Hunters that leave a mess instead of cleaning up there camp area are the norm.
I blame too factors, snuff flicks the manufactures produce to attract "new hunters" that have about as much to do with hunting as porn. Second I blame the hunting community as a whole. We are so sacred of offending someone no body stands up and says "that is unethical go home and practice!" Even this sight is guilty of that! Fact guys what you accept is what you teach and unless we stand up to immoral behavior at all times our sport will be damaged, perhaps beyond repair. Folks in the US have no problem supporting the rights of any group whose morals are beyond reproach, no one likes a group of armed thugs!
BTW I started hunting at age 10 and Dad has always taken me afield with him. My son is 2, first time I had him along on a hunt he was 4 weeks old! (baby backpack, after bunnies, dressed him very warmly and he slept 90% of the hunt)
I agree that people should shoot what makes them happy. My state just implemented the 4 point restriction so you have to be a little selective now. I don't really care because I am at the point where I would rather shoot a doe than a small buck anyway, I eat a lot of any deer tags cuzz I would really have to cuss myself if I had to let a big buck walk on the last day of season. One year like an idiot I had to stand in the line for a rifle tag at Wal Mart on the night before deer season(Idiot). I was so embarrased to hear most of those people talking, some people have no idea about the rules they are supposed to be following. I have taken down 2 pictures from there bragging board because they where unbelievably disrespectfull. It is no wonder so many people have a bad opinion of hunters. I know a lot of very ethical rifle and archery hunters, I just don't know where all these other people come from. Might of got a little off suject their sorry. I have to agree sort of if a kid don't want to hunt don't drag them out there. My cousins boy threw some pretty big fits when he was 9 or so, my neighbor boy on the other hand was the same age and he is ate up with it and is willing to put forth what ever effort I ask of him. just depends on the kid.
I can understand this sentiment.. Watching the Outdoor channel is a discrace. I cancelled the channel on my DTV..
If a guy only wants to kill a big deer thats alright. More left for me. I am a bowhunter, not a trophy hunter. If I have deer meat in the freezer I would pass on a small young buck, but only then. Does will always be in trouble!
I should also add to this thread that Gene and Barry Wensel were the guys that got me on the right track as far as bowhunting goes. I hunted with a compound my first 3 seasons. A buddy of mine had a copy of "One Mans Whitetail" in his dad's library. I told him I wanted to read it and he snuck it out of the house for me. That book completely changed my life. I was amazed! I still read that book along with "Hunting Rutting Whitetails" and "Come November" multiple times each year. I pretty much have them memorized. I'm so gratefull that we have mentors like this in our sport. But I kind of fear that the upcoming generations of bowhunters will not have these same quality mentors that I have had. Things are just different I guess.
I find myself in social situations where I hear a deer hunter telling tales. Normally after listening for awhile, I decide not to even tell them that I am a bowhunter. I find I do not have much in common with many of them. Nothing against them, but most people have no idea about the history of modern bowhunting in the U.S.A. I find this troubling, and wonder if I will still be able to bowhunt here when I am in my 60's.
Speak up man don't be afraid to call BS when you hear it! Do you want folks to believe all hunters agree with these blow harts? Of course that is easy for me to say Alaska's social circles are so small you and your opinions are quickly known and you generally only have too say things once.
PS pointing out that I chase the same Bears with 2 stick and a string that he dose with a 300win/mag, and do so with ethics as my first concern, almost always puts the value of my word above his. You'll find lots of support in calling his bluff!
Sounds to me that you you found a young man who is interested in shooting big whitetails. I wish I had the maturity to hold out when I was his age. I think its a personal choice. I don't feel like I have to get a bunch of deer under my belt before I start holding out for a large mature whitetail buck. If everybody would hunt with the same mentality that he does instead of adages such as, if its brown its down ,or if its taken with a traditional bow its already a trophy, maybe we would all see good bucks. Don't get me wrong here I don't have anything against shooting smaller deer, but it seems to me that your more worried about the fact that he is to young and hasn't earned the right to shoot a mature whitetail.
Now in jons defense, I would say that a begining hunter should be shooting some game. Killing needs to be practiced just like anything else. Now if he wants to shoot only big bucks and not lil ones thats ok, but might want to shoot some doe's. Kind of like skipping all the practice sessions and showing up to the big game and getting your butt handed to you.
Hunting shows on TV are the same a s studiio wrestling, if you are dumb enough to believe it you should buy all those products. Forty years ago any deer taken with archery equipment was a trophy. Tree stands were rare and most people hunted off the ground. If you saw another hunter you moved on to a new spot, no problem. It has got worse the last ten years, 4 wheelers have ruined more of my hunts than anything else. Hunters have put tree stands within 40 yards of mine and have climbed in them while I was in mine. It has gotten so bad I have considered quiting archery hunting in Pa. because we have to share our season with crossbows, rifles, in-line rifles. The rule on wearing blaze orange changes four times in a six week period. You have to be a lawyer to figure out the new rules. Sorry for the ramblin, it has changed a lot and not for the better.
Hunting shows are just long commercials anymore.
Wollybugger
We have 26 different game units each with its own set of regulations on 6 species of big game. There are 4 different start dates for moose hunting and 2 different sets of what qualifies as a legal moose within 100 miles of my house. Our hunting regs book is 128 pages long and only covers hunting. The trapping regs book is even thicker!
Luckily we have walk in hunt only areas where the wheelers are not allowed. If these areas did not exist things would be really bad and I would hunt above tree line only.
Fireball31 Excellent points. But you have misunderstood what I have said. What I mean is that I did not intend to sound that way. I don't care how young he is. I hope he kills some big whitetails! That is the best experience in life! It's not that I have a problem with newcomers setting goals and trying to achieve them. That is a good thing and I hope he does well. But I have seen situations before where a guy sees all of the hunting shows and magazines and feels like he should instantly be able to kill big bucks. Anything less is no good. This normally leads to frustration, and often times the guy will quit bowhunting. It's just that I feel too much emphasis is on these guys to kill big deer to be accepted. It seems to me that they feel a pressure to do so. When in reallity, hunting big deer is a priveledge that not everyone is granted. I have seen a number of experienced, good deer hunters come to Illinois and kill the biggest buck of their life in short order. I love to see that. These guys have the talent, they just don't have the access to big bucks. I would just hate to see an upcoming bowhunter become frustrated because he is only holding out for big bucks when he is just starting out. Like I said, if that is what he wants to do then that is great. He's on the right path. I guess what I am saying is that big bucks are rare. Magazines and videos make it seem otherwise. I love whitetails. I just feel a guy should be proud of an animal he decides to take. Maybe I am making a mountain out of mole hills here. I don't know.
If the guy wants to kill only mature deer because that is what he wants then great but if it is because he wants to impress others or measure up to some TV personality then that is not so great.JMO,Bill
I agree the all the above statements.But one if the young hunted wants to start shooting bigger (older) deer he has to start sometime.
I've deer hunted for 40 years bow hunted for 35 years.It only took me a few bucks to know I wanted more mature bucks.I killed 97 bucks 33 with selfbows in the last 19 years.
So who are we to tell him to keep shooting doe's and spikes untill he gets a few more under his belt.If he wants to learn let him learn the (right) hard way.
I wonder if you misunderstood me? I should have said it would be a good idea to shoot doe's also along the way. I could care less what somebody shoots but I am going to tell my boy and any other kid that I take to shoot and learn how to wait for the best shot and they will understand the overwelming feeling they get when they have an animal in front of them they want to kill. They will build confidence in there set up and they will learn how to blood trail and walk trails when the blood stops and when they should maybe wait a little longer. They will be able to make decisions like maybe I need to work up in bow weight or go to a 2 blade broadhead or not. Maybe They need to hunt a little higher or wait for a deer to walk by before they draw there bow.
There's no substitute for learning how to do most anything.....other than actually doing it. Killing deer is no different.
But, my only wish for someone else (as far as what they kill or don't kill), is.....I hope no one has to experience (for any reason) excessive remorse for taking one. Kill ANY deer you want. But, have no regrets in doing so.
If that means you're holding out for a (_____") buck....more power to you.
TIMES ARE A CHANGING
Yeah, some of you guys make great points. I wish the young guy all the luck. I just hope he enjoys himself and does not become too frustrated along the way. Man, I need to get outside! Is it deer season yet?
i have deer hunted since i was 5--26 now. i also killed a deer on my first hunt. i was and still am spoiled on hunting. my grandpa wold take me and i would kill whatever i wanted--and i killed a lot! for my younger years it was a .223, then a .243 the next season and then in 4th grade a .270/30-06. i began bowhunting early too, but didnt kill one until, heck i cant remember the year, but i was on up between 8 and 10. i used to kill does, yearlings, little bucks, med. bucks and no big bucks. usually the 2.5 yr old deer and under were all i killed. here in ga we are not accustomed to the big deer of the midwest, but stil have them. i finally started seeing the light later in high school on into college.
my whole life has basiclly revolved around hunting. all i watch/watched when i was younger was hunting shows. did the affect me--moreso now than then is my answer.
we own about 1000 acres along a river and only about 3 people max. hunt it regularly--my dad, me and my wife. trail cams really opened my eyes to what is out there as far as big bucks. i have only killed 2 deer i consider mountable in my life so far and one of them was not even on that property, but another place we own that is apparentlt loaded with big deeer ( will be on that place with longbow a lot this year!!!!!)
for the last 3 years we have managed our place pretty hard. shooting more does, letting deer under 4.5 years old go, planting the best food plots we can afford, planting more, supplemental feeding and habitat management is now very important.
i have hunted with rifle, muzzleloader, compound and since last year longbow/recurve. i had only killed one deer with a recurve until last year. i have shot a bow since i was 5 and played with a recurve almost as long off and on and killed a spike in november of 98. now i take the necessary weapon to the appropriate spot--mainly my longbow or recurve this year. i am after a big deer that i have watched the last 2 years and want to kill him with trad gear.
with all this said...with the changing of the times, the hunters are changing as well. we ar changing tactics, the steps we take in approching a hunt, and most of all out lands are changing so that we can try to have the best hunting and biggest deer we can posibly have. the younger hunters coming up are being taught more qdm style hunting vs what i grew up hunting like--nothing wrong with either. the only problem i can see is that the qdm style of hunting my deter some of the younger hunters--especially in states where the big deer are very hard to come by. they may get bored with going hunting all the time and not being able to shoot anything and lose interest.
if a young hunter is content with going hunting until the right deer presents a shot, then that is great and give them nothing but a congrats for it.
I started my son hunting at age 6 and he kept letting does pass ,i told him to be proud of what ever he shot ,He held off for a buck and killed a great 8 pt AT 6 years old. AND THE LOOK ON HIS FACE WAS PRICELESS.Im sending you a pick jonsimoneau.Your never to young to hunt. He has already pointed out some monsters on our farm this year I HOPE HE GETS ONE.
Ben that's a great pic. Maybe I'm all wet on this one. I just hate to see youngsters become discouraged because they feel the pressure to take big bucks. That is really all I was trying say....it just took me alot of words to say it!
Every kid is ready at a diffrent age.I just want my son to enjoy himself.Last week he shot 2 ground hogs.Hunting big bucks only for new hunters is wrong .They need to enjoy every minute in the outdoors,I still remember my first a spike it still brings a smile to my face.After all the trophy is in the eye of the beholder. :bigsmyl:
I must have misunderstood your first post Jon, Seems like we see eye to eye on this one.
the hunt itself means a lot to me. seeing a letting deer pass only makes you wiser by watching and learning--i dont think it is possible to learn too much from a deer. young hunters that start at an early age begin the trial and error process that makes a great hunter. starting at 5 or 6 learning deer and hunting in general will make for a very interesting career and most likely a successful one. being successful on lesser properties than seen on tv makes that person a true woodsman/hunter to me. they actually have to earn the kill, not pay for it.
not saying that all pay hunts are bad, but the high end places have it pretty good and shots/kills come pretty often. i would love to have a place like that, no doubt, but i will make mine all i can with what i have resources to.
What Rick P said. I don't have a tv or a radio in my house, but just the magazines are bad enough. TBM, PA, FFG, and F&S are the only ones I still read, and those last two are kind of sketchy now.
I am about to embark on my 38th deer season. When I started bowhunting in 1972 the first question asked among bowhunters was "Have you ever gotten one." Not buck or how big, but ANY deer. It is supposed to be difficult. Today the hunting here is better than ever. I can still gain access with a handshake and some work. I build relationships with landowners and cherish the privelege of being on their land. What I kill is less important than how I kill it. A perfect season would end on the last day with a big buck with my last tag but no matter what or when I kill a deer I respect that animal and all that went into killing it. I try not to judge others and what they want or decide to shoot, but it's not always easy. I have seen many lose sight of what is important because all they can see are big antlers. Hopefully if they stay in the sport long enough they will learn, unfortunately many never do. TV and the videos have done more harm than good in MHO. Showing the time and effort required is very difficult in a video and impossible on a TV show. Instant gratification is not something bowhunting is capable of, or should be providing. I am just as excited for opener in five weeks as I was 38 years ago. I hope I always have this to look forward to. Thanks for listening.
Sparrow
I would be willing to bet you get access to private land due to the reputation you have built over the years. There are hidden benefits to being morally above reproach in the field as well. For example at the end of the road I live on there is a lodge owned by a Danish couple that caters specifically to northern European clients. The first thing they did was close there land too all hunting. This past year I was introduce to them by a friend for the expressed purpose of discussing the possibility of me harvesting a few bears off there property. Again my the owners and my friend sought me out. Long story short my standing in the community earned me 300 acres of land to hunt that hasn't seen a hunter in 5 years! I start working there land when I get back from my Caribou trip.
QuoteOriginally posted by jonsimoneau:
Ben that's a great pic. Maybe I'm all wet on this one. I just hate to see youngsters become discouraged because they feel the pressure to take big bucks. That is really all I was trying say....it just took me alot of words to say it!
I know exactly what you mean and I think you are right on track. It really depends on the person and their expectations. If you have unrealistic expectations, you are setting yourself up for disappointment and burnout. Fact is, where that dude hunts, a mature buck may not even exist. Even if there is a mature buck, or two, in the area he is hunting, the odds of him shooting that buck are stacked against him. You need to be in the right place, at the right time, and all of the other countless variables need to align themselves at that very moment. A lone mature buck could also be taken by another hunter, hit by a car, or leave the area, never to be seen again.
I think a hunter must first understand that gaining permission on good property, doing the the scouting, stand placement, stand prep, entrance and exit strategy, scent control, etc. that you must master to regularly take mature bucks is fairly extreme and requires a lot of hard work, especially in high pressure areas. Secondly, the hunter must be content with the fact that all of that effort may result in tag soup. Many hunters understand that and it doesn't bother them. I think for other, often less experienced, hunters it can be extremely dissappointing and they may lose interest in bowhunting all together.
Big bucks do hold more clout and garner more respect for one's abilities than lesser bucks and it is no doubt fun to show them off. I'm also guilty of saying things like "It was just a spike, or awww just a little 6pt" when describing deer that I have shot. However, no one should worry about what others think if they shoot a legal deer. It is a personal choice that you should be happy with. I think the bottom line is do what makes you happy.
During the early doe season last year, I got a look at a good buck for my area (about the size of the one in my avatar). I passed on some perfect opportunities at smaller bucks during the early bow season while I was hoping for a crack at the larger buck. After some run-ins with another hunter on the property, who I suspect was trying to sabotage my hunting, I ended up shooting a small buck with the shotgun on opening day. I never did shoot a deer with my recurve last year. I didn't regret the fact that I shot a small buck but I really, really, regretted not shooting one of those smaller bucks with my recurve when I had the chance. I have only shot one deer with my recurve, but I had planned on shooting does and letting the small bucks go. It never worked out and I actually had more opportunities on small bucks than does during the bow season.
I understand the "let em go, let em grow" philosophy and I know some day I will be more selective, but this year, I have lowered my standards (and my expectations) and I couldn't be more excited about the upcoming season.
Some people like all the gadgets, bells and whistles when hunting. They may even miss the best parts initially while focusing on "trophy" bucks. Hopefully, he will come to understand the miracle of the tree he stands near or climbs. I'm just glad he is hunting and continuing the tradition.
Personally, I made sure when I took my girls squirrel hunting we didn't get one the first couple times. By the third time they were begging me to shoot a squirrel to take home. My goal was to get them to understand successful hunting doesn't always equal killing an animal. Hunting is more about being in the woods and learning about the animals.
That said, their mom wants a dead animal coming home to make the time we spent in the field "worth it".
Go figure....