If a man hires a guide to take him hunting... Lets say for elk in Co on Public Land??? And the customer uses a GPS to mark all the honey holes the guide is taking him to so he doesn't have to use the guide next year.. IS THIS PLAYIN DIRTY POOL????
I mean the guide has spent all this time and effort to locate good hunting spots. Is the customer taking food out of the guides mouth for next year???
Is this a commonly done thing???
Yes, dirty pool it is.
I know a couple guys here who hired a guide for waterfowl hunting. After he took them on public land for some great hunting, they just marked the location and now go on their own, bragging to all their buddies about the "stupid" guide.
I don't think its fair to do that.
I know fishing charter captains commonly guard their spots for reefs and such and would very much frown upon someone bringing a GPS and marking them only to return with their own boat next time.
Funny how all these new technologies have all these drawbacks or things never thought of before.
Doesn't really matter if it is common or not. I personally would feel it is wrong. It would be like you buddy taking you fishing to a good spot and then ever weekend he wants to fish it, you are already there.
Learning technique from someone you hire is one thing, but moving in just to squeeze them out of there fee, in my opinion is not right, public land or not. Just because it is legal doesn't make it morally right.
Dirty pool it is!
I believe the guide should get his fee in advance, and the first time the client pulled out his GPS to mark a location, he should have to use it to find his way back home. As far as the pool goes, he might win the first game; but, he would surely get a loose rack the second time around. The same goes for fishing holes.
If someone paid me to show them how to hunt, I wouldn't be too dissapointed to see them out there doing it on their own the next year. But then again, I don't make my money charging people to hunt.
took a "good friend" of mine to one of my duck hunting honey holes one time. the next year i went out to set my decoys and he, and his father-in-law, had already set out a spread and looked at me like i was trespassing on them. i learned that lesson very well. i never show a hunting spot unless i wouldn't mind that person hunting it without me, because chances are they will.
down south here, public land is public land. if i were the guide, i wouldn't take local clients.
You got it Mechslasher. I have taken too many yahoos to my good spots, don't take any one to a sweet spot unless you don't care if it doesn't stay sweet.
And by the way, I think someone who would GPS a guides honey holes is a chicken S@#t
I feel the same way Z-Man... Never even occured to me to do it??? But I was talking to a co-worker (nonhunter) About wanting to go elk hunting but not really being able to afford a guide... He said to just use the best guide you could afford then use a GPS every year after... Sounded like a good idea for about a 1/10th of a second...til I started thinking NO!! Now that would be a really F@#ked up thing to do to another person... I could see if maybe after the hunt pulling out the map and asking for the guides help for places to hunt next year. But to hunt right where you paid him would be really missed up. But I bet ya there are guys that do it...
No way, most of us hunt trad, because we don't like to take the easy way out. We put our time talent and love it to doing it this way. I truely belive that you will not find someone on this sight who feels it is okay. We do this for the enjoyment of the hunt and not the kill. The kill adds to the whole experience but not the sole reason. For that reason and that reason alone I believe most of us on here would not. Why take the time to make your own equipment. Pratice for hours to get that personal relationship with your hunting equipment, then to steal the information that someone else put their love and passion into
Dirty pool yes. But asking for advice on where else to go is ok. I usually take a few float trips when I go out west fishing and ask the guides for advice on other places to go. They are not giving up their honey holes, but usually direct you to some purty good spots.
DIRRRRRRRTY for sure.
QuoteOriginally posted by tradfergie:
No way, most of us hunt trad, because we don't like to take the easy way out. We put our time talent and love it to doing it this way. I truely belive that you will not find someone on this sight who feels it is okay. We do this for the enjoyment of the hunt and not the kill. The kill adds to the whole experience but not the sole reason. For that reason and that reason alone I believe most of us on here would not. Why take the time to make your own equipment. Pratice for hours to get that personal relationship with your hunting equipment, then to steal the information that someone else put their love and passion into
If you're hiring a guide aren't you taking a short cut anyways?
Counter point. Is it ok for someone to earn a living on public land guiding? How should the locals feel about someone bringing folks from outside into their hunting grounds for cash? How about when the larger guide services lease up all the land in an area that folks used to hunt for the asking in the past? If you didn't use a GPS just memory and a map would that make it ok?
(Playing Devil's advocate here)
Dirty pool yes!
Though another suggestion is, for very little money, you can call Game Management Agenicies, and ask questions, you can buy topo maps, I prefer the real paper ones opposed to ones on the computers, as you can sit down and study the whole map. Buy a few books and study about the animals you want to hunt.
There are lots of ways that are inexpensive to do a hunt in another state.
Mmmmmmmmmm good point!!!! VERMONSTER13
Yes, good point indeed David.
Out west most of the land is public and most of the guided hunts are on public land. They usually get there hunters back away from most access with horse however.
One way to cut costs is too go on "drop camp" hunt and have the outfitter put you on a spot but not pay for a guide.
Or you can DIY pretty easy in many west states if you do your homework.
I also think it is really low to go on a hunt to get GPS readings so you can steal the area from a guide.
Mike
Perhaps the guide should say 'no gps devices allowed on this hunt' before the hunt is booked. Then if one is discovered the guide could refuse service next time.
Something that happened to me - I told a bowhunting "friend" about my honey hole. Now every year he and his son rifle hunt there.
(also Playing Devil's advocate here)
So just because I paid someone to guide me on PUBLIC LAND one year, now I can no longer hunt that PUBLIC LAND with out the guide. Wouldn't you think that the guide fee would include the knowledge of the land?
Now wait a minute.
You pay guides and outfitters to teach you about the area and game that they are experts with. If the only thing a guide has going for him/her is a location on PUBLIC land that they think of as their honey hole, then you should find another guide.
If you showed a friend your favorite spot on public ground, would you be surprised if he hunted there? C'mon.
I think it would take either a lot of guts or lack of conscience to take out a GPS while on a guided hunt. On the other hand, I don't see how a guide on public land can expect a spot to stay THEIRS alone. I would think guides on public land are offering more of a how-to than a where-to hunt.
I fish Lake Texoma every year and have since 1992. The first year we hired a guide who did put us on some fish. Like most of the guides, he used bait that he obtained at the beginning of the trip using a cast net. Since then we have fished using exclusively artificial baits, and we tend to catch more fish than those on the guided trips. My folks winter on Texoma and the guides often follow them now. Are the guides cheating? No, it is a public lake.
I wouldn't hire a guide in order to steal his spots, but then, I wouldn't hire a guide anyway. As has been said, I don't hunt this way because it's easy. I enjoy the challenge. Unlike the "pro" hunters on TV, I don't drop my bow and grab a rifle just so I can kill something. The kill is the goal, but the hunt is what I enjoy.
As one of my friends from Texoma is fond of saying, "Fishing is always good. Sometimes catching isn't."
DIRTY POOL!!!!!!!!!!!
Public or not.
I tend to agree with David as well. If it's public land that a guide takes you on, chances are he was shown the spot himself at some point. If you avoid hunting public land just because a guide may be hunting that area you might be hard pressed to locate and area to hunt. Add to that the fact that elk are not like whitetails and move long distances. where you find them this year may not even have an elk within 50 miles next. that's probably stretching it a little but.
Devil David -- You make good points.
Part of the answer to the original question depends of what is being hunted. Some species stay in the same places while others migrate and must be located every few days. Being as how I can't stay long in any hunting area other than those here in Oklahoma, I now try to always hire a guide, usually on private land or some place where I could not get on my own anyway. I agree that doing what others here have described is indeed dirty pool, but it happens all the time in hunting and fishing situations.
Allan
I've seen the opposite too many times where the guide thinks they own the public land and will tromp right through your set up with their hunter. Public land is PUBLIC and it works both ways. That said, I've never used a guide.
I don't know about you guys, but I wouldn't go out in the mountains without a topo map and a compasss, and I sure as heck would always know where I was. Public land or private land, I need to know where I am and how to get home to my family.
What if something happens to your guide? How are you going to get out of there if you have no idea where you are?
I'm not putting that kind of faith in any man, other than myself.
It boils down to respect of the effort someone else has put into something. Dirty Pool to use the same spot? Yes! Dirt pool to let the guide TEACH you how to hunt that species and ask questions so you can find your own spots? NO! Same goes the other way. Gudies know areas well and if they come upon someone hunting a spot they should leave and and mosey to another location. It doesn't have to be far, either, to make it ameniable to both parties.
Please respect ones ability to make a living and expect the same from them to enjoy your passion and EFFORT you have put into it.This way we can enjoy better hunting for ourselves both on our own and through honest, hard working ,dedicated guide services.
If you had a comunity garden and all worked the same would you go and grab the best for yourself or maybe think things through and develope a plan? Guides and outfitters have what is called a "Dog and Pony Show" and that may be what you get when they find out you have little respect for their efforts on your behalf.You could go home with more than wounded pride. They are fully cabable of of making the hunt as enjoyable and productive as possible or as hard and health zapping as they choose.
I have an example of this. Lets see what you think. A client hired an outfitter to pack them into the back country on an elk hunt on horse back. They had a great hunt with guides and cooks and took a couple of nice bulls.
The next year when the outfitter took his clients in, the guy was setting on the ridge above camp with his tent. He had come cross country with Quads even though they were banned in the area and had a group of 6 guys hunting the same area as the outfitter.
If I'd been the outfitter the @#$@ would have hit the fan.. . .big time. As it was they sent one of the guides back out 20 miles to get the game dept.
Mike
What's next? A blindfold?
Seriously guys, I have to agree with Vermonster on this one. Is it the accuracy of the GPS that's the issue? If it's public land, and you remember the way in 'off-the-cuff', does it still remain unethical?
I for one have a much bigger issue with a guide charging outsiders to hunt public land and then expect some kind of claim on that land. We ALL pay for the maintenance and conservation of public land. Seems to me if that if that guide was successful enough (makes a boat-load of money) and had enough influence ("friends in high places") it could be conceivable that he might influence the politics of that public land. Perhaps influence a special season or restrict access through legal channels...
The guide is like training wheels, or like a hand-held while crossing the street. It makes perfect sense to hire one for otherwise inaccessable or un-scoutable private land, but for public? It's purely a convenience and a time saver and the guide should expect no claim other than compensation for THAT service, in my opinion.
Though that being said I'm sure I'd call the bastard with the GPS a rat! :knothead:
QuoteOriginally posted by vermonster13:
QuoteOriginally posted by tradfergie:
No way, most of us hunt trad, because we don't like to take the easy way out. We put our time talent and love it to doing it this way. I truely belive that you will not find someone on this sight who feels it is okay. We do this for the enjoyment of the hunt and not the kill. The kill adds to the whole experience but not the sole reason. For that reason and that reason alone I believe most of us on here would not. Why take the time to make your own equipment. Pratice for hours to get that personal relationship with your hunting equipment, then to steal the information that someone else put their love and passion into
If you're hiring a guide aren't you taking a short cut anyways?
Counter point. Is it ok for someone to earn a living on public land guiding? How should the locals feel about someone bringing folks from outside into their hunting grounds for cash? How about when the larger guide services lease up all the land in an area that folks used to hunt for the asking in the past? If you didn't use a GPS just memory and a map would that make it ok?
(Playing Devil's advocate here) [/b]
I understand that, and I agree to a point. The love to hunt in other area's sometime dictas that we get help. And I beleive that if you plan on goinmg back there you should talk to the guide. Other's raise good points about this is public land, but what are your reasons behind it. Some very good points on here and reason to think
While I don't want someone holding my hand and telling me when to shoot, I do need someone to put me in an area where animals I know nothing about can be found, so I would hire a guide. My next elk or moose hunt will be my first, and likely my last. I can't afford it-licenses, guide, transportation, bringing meat home. Maybe I'm stubborn, too proud, or just plain stupid, but I like to find my own spots to hunt. If a friend takes me to a hot spot of his, I'll pay attention to why it's a hot spot, ask questions-and never go back without his invitation. Then I'll work on finding my own hot spot based on my observations and the hints/suggestions from my friend.
Had to jump and respond without reading them all. I have to agree, at least in part, with Vermonster. It is public land, open to all of us. I could rightfully feel harshly about him bringing others in to an area I normally hunt and getting paid for that.
Nope, public land is open to public use.
Besides, GPS or not, if you are any kind of woodsman, I can't believe you would have that much difficulty figuring out where you were.
I would not hunt without compass and map in hand, with or without a guide. If we got separated I would be totally lost without one.
Now. . . WOULD I do it ? I have a thing about doing it myself, as do most of us here I think. Wouldn't mean the same to me if I just walked in to that area.
In addition. Just because you are standing in his spot does not mean you are killing any elk.
Nope. I think I disagree with any inkling that he or she "owns" that spot from here on out.
ChuckC
Vermonster makes some good points, but it's definitely sleazeball behavior to GPS the area with the intention of coming back to the same place the next year without the guide. Also sleazeball to go back to a spot a friend has shown you, particularly taking others along, unless he's indicated he doesn't mind. It's just lazy, sleazeball behavior. Rather than take the time and effort to learn how and where to hunt, they just steal it from others.
So is it dirty if someone went with a guide and then tells some one else about the spot or for the sake of trad the guy marks it on a topo map and not a GPS, then gives it away? If a guy goes into a really nice "trad" bow shop should he keep it to himself or does he have to get permission to tell others. If its public then its public. I myself have never used a guide, so this is my limited input.
If you ever hire a guide to walk you around on public land you then forever give up your right to ever go there again without paying.Semms that is the idea a lot of you have.Sure would hate to run into him and he think I was stealing his animals off his land just because I had hunted with him in the past.If it is public land he can just get over it.I might not want him hunting in an area I have hunted before.Wonder what he thinks of that when he brings hunters in?Public land is just that.Open to all. :readit:
You all make very good points. I have a friend who is a big deer killing machine and if he and I were to hunt an area, I would not ask him anything cause I want free range of that place without worrying about stepping on toes. plus I want to do it on my own. Kind of different I guess sort of. I am not knocking anybody that uses a guide I would have to in the areas you speak of. Luckily I don't have the drive to save the money to hunt those big beasts.
If a guide takes me to a spot that I can access on my own, then what are the chances that some other nimrod is not gonna be there when we arrive? If I pay someone to guide me, I want
A) DEEP access on public ground
B) Access on Private Ground
IMHO, I would be more willing to pay top dollar for option B than option A...
$.02
:readit:
Most guided hunts are a ways in; for the most part, by horseback. Once you have been guided into a spot you forever have the knowledge of that spot, GPS or not, unless your a complete idiot. The guide does not have exclusive rights to any particular area unless it is private property. He's betting that you won't have the wherewithall to get yourself back to that spot without his help; and most hunters don't.
I've hunted the last 3 years with a guide and he had no problems with his clients using a GPS. I've never used a GPS before but what's the problem with using a guide the first time and then going back the next year on a drop camp and using the GPS coordinates to navigate back to the spots the guide took you on the first go around; makes it a hell of a lot easier on the guide. The guides I've used appreciated the fact that they didn't have to baby sit me and that I could navigate myself.
Brett
Nope, NOT dirty pool. The guide surely knows that if he's guiding on public land, then "the Spot" just isn't gonna stay secret very long. I'd say he'd expect that. I mean c'mon, just look at how difficult it's becoming to find any land to hunt on anymore nowadays, a lot because of money, or the lack thereof. Guides save their private leases for insurance that no one else can hunt there. They can pretty much count on their leases every year for many years in the future. Public land is just that, public. If the guides don't like it, then they can use their leases that no one else can have access to for guiding.
Just like fatman said it is public land and what's to say that you will even have a spot to set up. If the spot's that gtreat why wouldn't the locals already be there? Say you don't use a gps and you return and roughly try to hunt the same spots from memory, is it still wrong to hunt this public land just because someone decided to guide people there?
What everyone doesn't understand is that outfitters and guides usually don't hunt from a truck (some do).
They pack in to areas that they have licence to guide in. They pay for the privilage to guide on public land and in many instances have exclusive guide to an area. Now non guides can hunt the area but other guides can't.
If you hunt just to get the area from a guide, then you are a stealing his or her livelyhood.
Of course if a buddy takes me to his honeyhole, I wouldn't think of going back unless he invited me.
Mike
QuoteIs it ok for someone to earn a living on public land guiding?
There in lies the answer to the question for me. First off I wouldn't pay somebody to take me on public land. Second, its public land so I don't feel bad using it.
Mike, that's exactly what I'm saying. If an outfitter can access public land that's WAY back in there, it is COST EFFECTIVE and logical for me to hire his services.....rather than trying to run a string of horses 12 months of the year, having trailers and trucks to haul them from home, and spend time messing with them while in camp. When all of those factors are considered, the outfitter's fee can be a real bargain....even if I could pinpoint his camp by GPS, I still couldn't get there...
I think your all right in some way.I grew up out west and the only time I ever hunted on private property is for ducks I have never used a guide.I have hunted in ID,CO,OR,NV and my home state of CA in that time I have seen quite a few guides in country I was hunting and never had any problems with them and believe they have the right to earn a living.Now I hope I don't step on toes but they do not own the land as has been said and they were probably shown the spot by someone else I know this because I have given way more info to guides then was ever given to me. I use every resource available to me to find my areas to hunt and they do too.I am not the best hunter out there by any stretch but I do better than most and I find my deer in areas that are bypassed by most for being too accessible.Most guides do go to areas that are tough to get as posted above to keep you from returning without them.I think if wingnuts example had not been in there illegally then the guide probably would have overlooked it as a case of at least the guy is working just as hard as me to hunt here.I have noticed on this thread that the majority of people are not from areas with a lot of public land I believe this gives a different perspective as most land you hunt is more "yours" whether factually or figuratively.Out west you have to compete for hunting whether to get tags or a good vantage point to glass from its first come first served.I would bet dollars to donuts if the shoe was on the other foot he'd hunt your spot on public land. JMHO Bill
Easy way for it to be right is too make clear your intentions before the hunt. Be upfront. If the guide is OK with being your "training wheels", then great. If he is not and you do it anyway behind his back, then I probably would pass on sharing a camp with you.
You expect full disclosure and honesty from the service you are hiring - is it not right to return the same?
Steve
I used to guide in Montana and I have come across ex-clients in some of my spots. Never had one come back twice, as they saw some fault in what they had done.The hunting pressure can get heavy at times like that. I know guides and outfitters that have delt with it fairly harsh, this is how they make a living and they do not like sqatters. they take it quite serious.(some, not all). I do not think that it is right for someone to sneak around, and I do not think it right for someone to lay claim to public ground. Having bad morals or poor hunter ethics is un-excusable.
QuoteI do not think it right for someone to lay claim to public ground.
In your case...who was doing that?
Doesn't this work both ways?
I see both sides of this equally.
Quoteused to guide in Montana and I have come across ex-clients in some of my spots. Never had one come back twice, as they saw some fault in what they had done.The hunting pressure can get heavy at times like that. I know guides and outfitters that have delt with it fairly harsh, this is how they make a living and they do not like sqatters. they take it quite serious.(some, not all). I do not think that it is right for someone to sneak around, and I do not think it right for someone to lay claim to public ground. Having bad morals or poor hunter ethics is un-excusable.
It seems since you are a guide you are laying claim to the land for yourself.Why else would anyone you happened along be "squatters"?If it is public land there are no squatters, only guides that think they are above everyone else that wants to hunt that land.Get private land to guide on if you don't want to see other people. jmho
Just remember karma. ever time I have done some thing unmoral it has always came back to bite in the _ss.I always try to show respect for other hunters and the places I have been shown.
For me, I think the difference lies in the air of deception inherent in the scenario. If you were up front with the guide that you are using him to learn the area, and methods, and intend on hunting alone in the future then I don't see a problem with it. Of course, you might end up getting less then pleasant service from the guide after that, depending on the guide's ethics. As mentioned earlier animals move and part of the guide's services is prescouting so that you have an idea of where the animals are or aren't and hopefully increasing your chance of encounters. You won't have that going back alone and will have to account for that by planning more time to find game or be resolved to the possibility that you may not locate the game until late in your hunt, if at all. Another thing to consider is that if you are considering this then you are looking to go back into an area that you can almost guarantee is going to have other hunters in it. That's not necessarily a good thing. Maybe using the knowledge of where he takes his clients to move into adjacent areas that may hold less pressured animals would be the better choice.
QuoteFor me, I think the difference lies in the air of deception inherent in the scenario. If you were up front with the guide that you are using him to learn the area, and methods, and intend on hunting alone in the future then I don't see a problem with it.
Exactly my point!
Intent is what its all about.
Steve
I personally wouldn't care if a buddy hunted or fished a spot I had shown them. I'd be happy and hope they had good luck...I don't own it, just payin' taxes on it...As far as the guide deal goes I'd be up front about it...
David
GMMAT& James Wrenn, I am refering in this case to the outfitter.I would hunt the area as if alone as per the outfitters request. I do not claim the rights to it. but the ax can swing both ways. The bottom line for me is, The law or rules state that an outfitter can use the PUBLIC land.So can the non-guide. nobody can claim exclusive rights to it.
I myself would not go into that spot unless I spoke with the outfitter and went at a time that he was not in and he had no hard feelings toward me for it. If you try to "BEAT" the guide to the spot then this just shows poor morals. if you go in you should expect company and that the hunting will be less than good with two(or more) hunters in the spot. I like to hunt with no other folks around for miles. why would I go to the spot that I know will have hunters in it?
You cannot legislate morality. so we must have respect and courtesy.
Just my thoughts. Chuck
This whole topic is one that can certainly raise tempers aint it?
I personally have never used a guide. I've only hunted "out west" once which was for elk in Colorado on BLM land where we did quite well. Five guys killed three elk and we all had shot opportunities.
In my personal experience, I can only try to relate this to hunting deer on public land. I suspect that some outfitters are like some hunters here around home. They go on the public land and scout out all the best areas then when the time comes they hang stands in every single one of them and expect others to NOT hunt those areas. I know guys who some years hang 10 to 20 stands on the public land I hunt. I also know that some of the stands will NEVER get hunted in some years. Am I supposed to not hunt the best spots on the PUBLIC land because someone else has "laid claim" to them by hanging a stand there? I don't think it's any different than a guide "claiming" the hunting rights to a piece of public land.
In the past, I've talked to guys where I hunt and in order to avoid bumping into each others stand sites I told them exactly where I would be hunting only to come back the next weekend to find he'd hung a stand in that exact tree. And I was certain it was him because Missouri requires you to put your name and address on your stand if hung on public land.
Of course, all that said, I myself wouldn't use a guide just to find his hot spots but I might hire one with an up front agreement that I want him to show me some spots I could come back to on my own. In that case I would expect to be shown some quality places but I would also understand if he did not take me to his very best spots. Sort of a fair trade on both our parts. For my money, I gain some knowledge and have some fun while I'm doing it. For his time and effort he gets some of my money which is what he's after anyway. This seems to be a common tactic for lake fishing and I've even heard local am radio talk shows with actual fishing guides recommending exactly that to the listeners. Probably never happen in my case though because half the time I can barely afford to go hunting let alone hire a guide. Guess I'll just have to do like I always do and figure it out on my own.
Speaking of "figuring it out on my own", I guess that's the real beef I have from the examples I gave above. Sure the guy who hangs a bunch of stands has done a lot of leg work and spent a lot of time figuring out the movement patterns of the local deer but so have I. Just because he has a couple dozen stands he's willing to put out and I only have two or three that I won't leave out on public land does not give him the right to exclusive use of that land. I've done my work too. Of course, I have not hired him to get that info which is the point of this thread.
So, I guess I'm figuring that just because a guide did a bunch of legwork and found some good spots does not keep someone else who has done the same work but is not a guide from using the same places. That's not what this was about but the post about guides finding "squatters" on their spots really struck me this way and bothered me quite a bit. I guess I just can't stand arrogance from hunters about their "right" to a spot when it's a spot on public land. I understand that guide services pay fees for exclusive guiding rights to parcels of land but I suspect that many wrongly think that gives them something to hold over the average Joe who also has the right to be there.
Bottom line, public land is public land period.
Public land is public land and respect is respect. It is unreasonable to show someone a good spot on public land and assume that they will never use or apply that knowledge. At the same time, it is good manners to defer to the person that you learned from when you are both in the field at the same time.
All land is not created equally. In many cases 70% of the game is to be found on 30% of the available property. In that scenario you are bound to encounter other hunters unless access is limited in some fashion. It is always best to be civil and try to get along.
After reading through all the posts so far I can only say that there is a bunch of you guys I would never invite to hunt with me on public lands because it is very clear the next time I go to hunt the spots that I scouted and found and shared with you, I would probably find you in a treestand waving me off. Public land may be open for all to enjoy but to deliberately go back without permission to someone's honeyhole after they shared it with you is unethical and a severe breach in any friendship that may have existed.
Back to the original post, I hate to sound harsh, but the guide should be prepared for something like this. Something in the contract, etc.
Public land is public land....no one, guide or otherwise, can "claim" it. I hunt fairly high pressure areas, and the rule around here is first there wins. I have had many hunts changed by showing up at "my spot" to find someone else already set up...I move on with a wave.
Very good topic. I have hunted CO on semi- guided hunts. This meaning some days I'm hunting with the guide, others on my own. I have used GPS to mark trails back to areas I intend to hunt. We talked about it, and they had no problems with it at all. The areas arer public land, but access from the ranch is by far easier than coming in from the other side off BLM land.
On occasion we would see or run in to other hunters that did pack in. Its frustrating, only in that after a good amount of hiking there was someone already hunting in the area we planned. We moved to anothe area.
Its really all about common courtesy. I fish on a large body of water( Saginaw Bay) for walleye. Is this really any different than going on a charter, and learning from the captain areas to fish and lures to use? Not really. Now, I could sit in the marina and follow the next charter boat out of the marina, and set up and troll right behind him all day. This would be quite rude. Same with popping up inthe middle of an area an outfitter is hunting. Now if I am inthe same area, and find they are not there, then I see no reason that there is anything wrong.
In hunting, or fishing, the game or fish are not always inthe exact same spots every time. Too many variables. I may know of a particular bench that holds elk, with a water hole or wallow that is hot at times. Doesnt mean that I would sit right next to someone elses set-up, although at some point in a hunt, I may work that area.
I have heard of guides, who have the guiding permit for a cerain area get downright threatening of hunters who "encroach" on that area. Some will tell non-clients that they are trespassing on private land when in fact they are on public land. If this happens, I would contact the warden. Study your maps, and know where you are. KNow the laws of the state you are in. Trespassing is a serious violation in most western states. But ifyou are on public land, you have every right to hunt there.
Be courteous of other hunters, and don't piss in their wheaties.
Quotewithout permission to someone's honeyhole after
It's public land. It's not your honey hole. If it were private property I would agree with you 100 percent.
I have never used a guide, but just so I'm clear on this, if I ever do use a guide I am forever banned from hunting that area again unless I rebook with them - correct?
Quotewithout permission to someone's honeyhole after
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It's public land. It's not your honey hole. If it were private property I would agree with you 100 percent.
Exactly. That's what makes it public land. You don't need anyones permision to go anywhere on it.
Don't get me wrong on that last post. I'm not saying that I would hunt where someone had told me they were hunting there but I don't think it's right to try to lay claim to public land either.
Just went back and read the original post here. It was as follows:
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"If a man hires a guide to take him hunting... Lets say for elk in Co on Public Land??? And the customer uses a GPS to mark all the honey holes the guide is taking him to so he doesn't have to use the guide next year.. IS THIS PLAYIN DIRTY POOL????
I mean the guide has spent all this time and effort to locate good hunting spots. Is the customer taking food out of the guides mouth for next year???
Is this a commonly done thing??? "
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Just had a thought. Since the customer was paying the guide (Probably quite a bit of money) and the guide was giving the info, in exchange for that money, does not the client then "own" that info?
If not, then do you also feel that if you pay money to be educated in college, you are not allowed to apply that education in the future?
Playing Devils advocate ...........
Stirring the pot????
Bubble bubble, boil and trouble..... here the witches cackle????
It's called knowledge transfer in my buisness. It's what you pay private contractors for.
I used to shoe horses for income; and I once went to an outfitters lodge back in the mountains of Idaho. I went there for the money; and the experience; but I had hunted the area 5 miles south of the lodge; and was interested in the hunting there.
While working on some incredibly rank horses; one of the guides was lined up without knowing it- for a kick in the head. I shoved him aside and the horses hooves went right where his head had been.
I spent ten days there working with the guides; and going on some scouting trips.
There were three ways into this place; by plane( which I did with my equipment); by equine; or by foot.
While I was there I noticed that the forest service trail that led through the lodge area was covered with trees that had been cut and laid there to prevent people from passing through.
The trail leading into the property went between some cabins ( all on leased forest service land)- the trail had a hot electric wire hanging about 7 feet off the ground. You had to really lay down on the saddle to get under it.
And on the opposite side of the cabin; if you had tried to get around it; was a pit they dug to prevent you from doing it.
The outfitter was intentionally blocking the trail to 'his' best spots.
He also had barbed wire across trails; and the guides told me what I heard from other hunters; that the only watering holes were taken over by the outfitter in hunting season - their camps surrounded them. And they were told to spook the horses of anyone that tried to water their horses there.
On the way out in the plane; the outfitter told me that he wanted me back to re-shoe his horses in September... and I told him that I was going to be bowhunting in September- but that I was going to be in the general area; and if he wanted to fly my equipment in; I would work on his horses for a few days while I was on my month long hunting trip.
He told me it was " his area" and that I " was not to hunt there". I asked if he was a veteran; and he said no- and I commented "I guess you were busy that day" - " but I am a veteran; and I am willing to fight for my country; and this spot". "It is national forest ground - not your private property".
Well the ensuing response nearly got us crashed; and I -did- go there to hunt that fall.
And the guide who I kept from getting his head kicked off- told me that the outfitter had ordered his guides to "burn him [me] out".
I use a coleman stove; and if you do not turn it off all the way after use; it then seeps gas; and when you turn the gas on and light it; it can blow up and burn your tent down. Knowing the plan- I made sure I turned off the stove completely after use; and - that I checked it before lighting it.
Sure enough one day there were horse tracks on the trail ( and yes I could tell the shoes were ones I put on) and the stove was turned on a little... and a tragedy was avoided.
The sheriff told me that there were originally 6 outfitters there; and this was the last one with a license to outfit - they all had lost their licenses for stuff just like this.
So- do I give a tinkers dang if that outfitter has people gps his honey holes? NO.
If it is National Forest land; the outfitter does not own it. YOU DO.
Yes if it takes horses and such to get back in there; or a plane ride - well most are not going to screw up a good deal - and most are not going to go back in through bogs and cold rivers on their own.
It is rude to step on someones feet; but not if their dancing with your lady.
I do not support doing something that feels wrong to do. If I think something is unethical; I won't do it. But too; if an outfitter is hogging an area; and they do- then follow your heart.
I never hunted that spot again; but two years later the outfitters secretary begged me to go back because they needed a horseshoer - no: I did not get on that plane again.
That is one story; I have numerous others which just involve outfitters anger over people invading "their areas". Some of those people did it innocently: and are members of this site.
Follow you heart. Don't mess up other peoples hunts; but don't let them mess up yours either.
After typing the entry above; out of curiosity I googled that spot; and the outfitter there now ( no idea if its the same guy) has the gps co-ordinates of the landing strip listed on the web site.. lol
Interesting thread. I've bowhunted in Idaho for 31 years - never with an outfitter or guide. I've always been a do-it-yourselfer. I have thought about using an outfitter on occasion, just to get back into remote country that is virtually impossible to reach on foot, especially if I shot an elk and needed to haul meat out. I have spent lots of time scouting and learning different areas, and yes, it does indeed take a great deal of time to become familiar enough with a given area to be able to consistently get in to elk. The most successful elk hunters I know are those who devote most of their time to learning the country. However, I assure you that just because there are elk in this area or that spot this year is absolutely no guarantee they will be there next season - or even next week for that matter. So, whereas I feel it would be a bit "dirty pool" to deliberately mark spots by any means with the intent to return and hunt without the outfitter, the person who did so would still have no certainty of finding elk and very likely would have to do some searching and scouting on his own anyway. And, if it was an area only accessible by horseback, he would have to deal with the logistics of either bringing his own stock or renting local stock to haul game if he was successful. Colorado might be different, but here in Idaho there is a lot of real estate for those elk to wander around in and they do wander. Outfitters here have their designated areas (public land) that are usually large enough that one or two "honey holes" aren't going to make or break their guiding season. From an ethical standpoint the action under discussion may not be right, but from a practical reality, at least here in Idaho, it is of little consequence, as I see it.
I think using the term "honey Hole" is where the grey area comes in here. I guess if the guide is truely taking you into his prime "honey holes" getting you into non-stop action and chances at nice bulls then it would be sleazy to mark his spots. But I have read many accounts of people claiming that you never really see a guide's real honey holes unless some extra $$$$ is used to grease the skids.
So is it dirty pool to mark his average so-so spots, where maybe you saw a decent number of elk (or maybe very few) and had a good time, but nothing spectacular. To a first timer or novice that may have seemed like a honey hole.
I called a friend (who is a guide) and asked him his thoughts. He kinda chuckled and said "well heck no, I wouldn't mind. If they didn't have horses, I'd feel sorry for them though. Just cause you can hike into where the elk are, doesn't mean you can pack one out before it spoils with some of the weather we get in bow season. Or come back on a second trip and find a grizz on it. Even if they did have horses, chances are the elk won't be in the same place anyhow. They couldn't even hunt the wilderness areas without a guide. I go into the mountains about a month before season starts and clear the trails, make sure the water is in the same place and find the critters. Guides do alot more than people think sometimes. I'm all for someone wanting to try and do it on their own."
Somehow I think it would be a low class thing to do to hire an outfitter and then go back the very next year and hunt the same spots, even if it is public land. On the other hand maybe if you were to go back years later it might not be so bad. Here is a for instance for you;
Over 10 years ago I did not have time to haul all of my pack animals and camp from Iowa to Southwest Colorado so I hopped a plane and paid an outfitter for a 5 day timberline mule deer bowhunt. I didn't really want the guide, just the camp setup but sometimes you have to take what you can get. This area was 8 miles into the wilderness and there were more big mule deer there than I have ever seen before or since. There were three high basins above treeline and there were mule deer bucks in all of them. We couldn't hunt them all at once and rotated our morning and evening hunts around those basins. The outfitter only used this area for the first two weeks of bowseason and them moved to an area that was much better for elk during muzzleloader and last week of bowseason. The outfitter was well paid for this 5 day hunt. I have hunted other drainages of this area for elk on my own and know it pretty well. I have not gone back to hunt this on my own but someday I might, especially since I know he doesn't mess with mule deer hunts during elk muzzleloader season. The outfitter may be dead and buried before I get time for another hunt in that area. At this time I don't feel any remorse about packing in my own camp to hunt this area. I guess after 15 years or so his dibs on the area have worn off for me.
So I guess the answer from me for Burnsie's Question is No, a one time guide fee does not preclude you from hunting there forever, I am not sure how long you have to wait but I would feel bad going to the same area the next year.
Like Dave B. I just re-read the first post.
In short my answer is yes it is dirty pool. And as I said before, the ax can swing both ways. some of the outfitters metioned above are the very reason I do not guide anymore. They lay claim to public ground and get physical and detructive when they get company. not my cup of tea. If both sides had a bit of morals and respect then the question would have no foothold.
Like many here have mentioned, I would not do it. not to a guide and not to a friend.
"It's public land. It's not your honey hole."
It may be public land and land that anyone can hunt, but the person who took you there did you a favor in showing you a productive place to hunt. After all, you didn't know of the place...did you? You are capitalizing on someone else's hard work and generousity. Sure, you can return on your own without permission since it is public land...but you will likely have very few friends who will take you hunting a second time.
No, there's no favor involved.
We are talking about a guide who was paid. a guide who is making his/her living taking hunters on to public grounds paid for by your tax dollars.
I think it's a pretty big favor that Joe Public foots the bill to provide ground for outfitters, don't you?
I don't know how many of you elk hunt but gps is no good unless your coordinates are on a bulls a$$.They can travel many miles in a day so just because they were there last year or even yesterday don't mean they are there when you get there.I think it's dirty to hunt someones spot but if i get close and hear a bugle it's on.I don't drive 1800 miles to make friends i go to kill elk.I've been there 3 times on PUBLIC LAND and have dealt with the a hole guides and they don't have one red cent of my money and never will.They don't care about you doing it on your own they want$$$.We have wallows we hunt year after year and the last time i was there someone had built a blind near it,now i've hunted it before but it's public land so his blind doesn't make it his spot.If he was there and tried to run me off i guess i would've shown him how we handle problems like this in the south,get over it or catch one in the lips.Out of state elk tags cost too much to try to pacify everyone so do what makes you happy as an individual,you can't make everyone happy!Agree or disagree this is just my opinion.Preston
After rereading the post I sill say its dirty pool. You are talking about using a specifc act to lay claim to a guides specific resource that makes him a living. A lot more goes into guiding than scouting like keeping back country trails open for pack strings to manuver safely over the terrain for example. I AM NOT A GUIDE and NOT PARTICULAR about supporting of the guiding business as it is pretty sleazy in much the same way as used car salesman. BUT there are many fine outfitters/guides and to use a SPECIFIC act to encroach on there livelyhood is a rotten back stabbing thing to do. Like many said its public land and he don't own it, however there is lots of public lands in certain parts of the country. Use the knowledge he has displayed(pay attention dumb chit) and put it to use and go on your own in other drainages. Go find your own rubs,scrapes, wallows etc.
I never thought of that one. But I will probably never own a gps either.
Guiding is hard work and doesn't pay all that well either.
I think it is a cheap shot to take advantage of some one like that regardless where they hunt, friend nabbing someone's honey hole or anything like it. We hunt with traditional equipment and we like to do it ourselves on our own terms and I would bet most would choose to do-it- yourself any way over hiring a guide but; the guide is trying to make a living just like the rest of us and whom ever hires him should respect the work he has put in to making the hunt possible for his client. I personally would rather just do the best I can with a little help from friends and enjoy the opportunity.
Well wapiti have you ever sold a used car ? Isn't that encroaching on that sleazy used car salesman's livelihood ? Should we all just sell all things on consignment? The question isn't about guiding in another guides territory its about a taxpayer going back into public land and hunting .The land and the game on it are not owned by anyone including the guide.The product he is selling is the ability to find game on the land and specific knowledge of that game that is much more than a honey hole if it is not much more than that then he is not going to make it long.As for the man being guided he probably will need more than just coordinates to a honey hole to be a threat to any good guide.Most people wh have those other qualities to be successful will probably not use anybody elses spot to do so.I know I have been told a specific spot where a big buck lives and have refused to hunt him as I don't want to diminish the challenge of doing it on my own. BILL
Bill, i've heard of making it hard on yourself but dang man not taking advantage of knowing where a dig deer is doesn't make sense to me.Just because you got tipped on where he is isn't gonna make him easier to kill,you still have to get your wind right and get in the area without spooking him.On top of that big deer are harder to get into bow range because luck is always on their side.I am not a lazy hunter by any means but i take advantage of tips when i get them.Different strokes for different folks i guess but hey whatever floats your boat.
I think I may have come across a little elitist on that one while trying to make a point. What I meant was I Prefer to find my own deer and if I know of one that I found and of one that I've been told about I would hunt harder and more for the one I found.I found a good blacktail one time and told a friend about him and he got out the video camera and asked if the buck in the video was him and it was.I checked on the buck a few times but didn't hunt hard for him because the whole situation was tainted by the fact that he did not feel he could tell me about the deer without me hunting him.Now I know what you are thinking and NO I did not ever give him a reason to think I would snake the deer out from under him.But I did not want him to be able to say I did by killing that buck.Our friendship will never be the same.I did not mean to say it would be less to hunt a deer that someone told me about as I have but I guess it depends on the situation.More than the challenge I guess it would be my pride that would get in my way as I wouldn't want someone going around saying "I told him right where to find that buck".I am talking about specific info not just "Yeah I saw a good buck the other day up by ...... ".As I read back I see my post is as clear as mud!But hey I know what I mean;) and it is not to say that anyones way is lazy,easy or in any way less challenging than mine.Bill
OK.....just being honest here....I would not pull out a GPS and start marking spots. That would seem pretty lame. BUT, I would also have a hard time NOT going back to some great public land spot. It is PUBLIC.
But no, I don't think I would hire a guide in Wyoming just to steal his spots. It seems to me a good guide provides a lot more than just the hunting area.
I have read several posts of so called friends sticking it to the generosity of a fellow hunter and guides that are pretty much outlaws. I think most of us have had run-ins like we have read, the point about the guide is we are in the traditional game because we like the challenge and yes public land is public and I have no problem going back year after year in the same spot to figure the animals on my own or with a good hunting bud. I have some spots in Idaho that I have found over the course of a few years that a biologist turned me on to, do I consider the several thousand acres of public land mine, no. Would I show another responsible hunter the area, sure I would. I would wish the best of luck to all I would consider sharing a camp with and those whom I do not; well it is time to start your home work.
So let me get this straight. When I first had my sprinkling system installed, I had no idea how to start it up in the spring. The first year, I paid the installer 70.00 to come and turn it on and program the zones. I paid close attention to what he did and realized it was a piece of cake. Every year since then, I have done it myself, saving the 70.00.
That's how I learned to install a toilet, wire a room, replace a hot water heater, and install siding. (not to mention dozens of other things)
I guess I'm just an unethical slob.
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I agree with ya Lenny,you can pick up on a lot if you just pay attention.