Trad Gang
Main Boards => PowWow => Topic started by: snag on July 09, 2009, 06:35:00 PM
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My state has the rifle draw before the deadline for OTC archery tags. So there is a segment of rifle hunters who if they don't draw they just pick up a bow and give it a go. What do you think about this? Does your state allow this?
This is my take on it:
1)There is a significant number of these guys who are not skilled with a bow because of lack of practice. This can result in a higher wounding rate and the loss of the animal...making us archers look bad, but more importantly it is unethical hunting! No matter what weapon you hunt with you need to be able to make a clean kill...I know, it is not a perfect world. But you should try, to the best of your ability, to be as skilled as you can. In Europe there are countries that actually have you go through a shooting test.
2)It artifically inflates our numbers which can effect our season length or the ability to expand our opportunities as archers. These opportunities could include more "traditional only hunts".
What are our thoughts?
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I agree with you POV and I think it is mostly because of wheelie bows. I'm not pointing at any individuals, but I do think that training wheels were the worst thing to ever happen to archery.
To hunt here in archery "zones" or "seasons" I had to pass the internationaly accepted test, it probly should be that way every where, wheels or not.
JMHO and $.02
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I agree with the points you make. Your wildlife agency is no doubt doing it to garner more revenue.
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Same here, in Quebec to hunt with the bow you have to succeed at a bow ability test.
The down side: more crossbows during the "archery" season, and too many deer wounded by a bolt shot wayyyyy too far
F-Manny
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Here in La. we dont have to draw for anything we buy all of ours OTC also our archery only season has been whittled down to almost nothing and we have to share it with crossbows. The wildlife depts. throughout the nation are trying to make it easier and easier to kill deer with less and less work and maybe they are doing the right thing but I dont think so. New hunters today dont know what a challenge is anymore its all about killing something. I enjoy my trad hunting and hunt with a recurve bow exclusively but it is my choice and I have to be willing to share the woods with gun hunters.
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I would like to see more responsible bow hunters in the field. On the other hand, I'd hate to see a test that eliminated one bow hunter who knew he could get every shot in the kill zone at 15 yards, so never shot at anything further than 15 yards and killed every animal he ever shot at, but passed another bow hunter who shoots pretty good out to 50 yards, but will take low-percentage shots at anything he thinks might be in range. I don't know of any test that would separate the two, other than maybe a lie detector test, because everybody is going to say the right thing and then do whatever it is that they want to do when they get out in the field. A test might eliminate those who don't have any business shooting at anything other than a target, but it won't eliminate those who can shoot well but will take low-percentage shots.
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La. bowhunter, the reason to make it easier to kill deer is so they will sell more tags. It's all about the money. I am sorry to hear that they have lumped crossbows in with your archery season! That is not right. A mechanical triggered weapon that shoots "bolts"...where's the arrow?
McDave, I hear ya. I'm not saying we should have shooting tests. But I was just illustrating the extremes. But I do think there should be a devotion to knowing your weapon's capabilities and your own. If I were to rifle hunt I would practice and know at what range I am capable of killing an animal at. It should be no different for bows.
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David,
I agree with McDave (Hi Dave) on this one. I have a hard time swallowing more tests and limits based on some bureaucrats standards and where that may lead to.
Over here in Idaho, at least ten years ago, our Fish & Game looked at the issues of people management and the complaint of many regarding unsuccessful rifle hunters going on to muzzleloaders or bowhunting during those seasons and not being proficient with them. They were receiving reports of a lot of wounding with both. One of the concepts was a "choose your weapon" tag to keep those who are proficient within their limits. It was never implemented.
It is a hard thing to legislate morality and I think that is where being proficient with any weapon to kill game lies. Too many people today want to kill and not hunt.
Ray
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Snag, I feel I need to comment on your use of the term "unethical hunting." I believe the better designation is "unethical hunter." They will exhibit behavior we deem unethical regardless of weapon. I have seen too many "hunters" who believe the end justifies the means--they hunt out of season, poach on other's land, and disregard any DNR regulation they feel limits their chances of a kill. I have no room for them in my camp.
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What's ethical to one may not be to another. Then there are the bloodsport slobbers who make a mockery of any situation regardless of weapon. Hunting ethics start with respect for the animal. That just means doing whatever necessary to insure to the best of your ability, shot selection, setup, practice/confidence, woodskills, & tracking & recovery. It's a reverence each of us must carry in their own way.
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Crossbows have been around for some time. They have made them more atractive but they are still cumbersome to hunt with. I would not trade my long bow for one. I really think that the crossbow is a fad and will die off after awhile. I do not think there is much to worry about. I mean really think about draging one of those things around through the thickets or try to put a stalk on some game. Come on guys get real.Just my opinion.
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OTC?
Most guys now a days are two season hunters, they pic up there wheelie bow for the start of the season and pick up the gun for the next. you can be good with both.
If OTC is some kind of trad only tag then i kind of agree with you at heart but as a hunter we this needs to come from within not regulated by big brother.
Okalahoma has a trad only tag and 2 days before the season starts right after the draw the archery shops have a run on recurves and 3 arrows then the bows are taken back at a discounted price and sold next season along with another 3 arrows.
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In utah we have the same problem.May of the rifle units may take 2 to 3 years to draw.Archery tags left over will sell out in hours.And we have another problem,which utah has a program called the dedicated hunter.It allows a hunter to hunt archery black powder and rifle seasons.The program is intended for trophy hunters that are more respossible,they donate time of wildlife projects ect.Alot of people buy their way out of the work hours.Some are really good people and should have those rights but most only shoot their bow a day before the hunt and just scout and crowde up the archery hunt.The archery stores sell more bow in the two weeks prior to bow season then all year long.Many bow hunters and many U.B.A members are pushing for some kind of shooting test and ethics program.But utah is more interested in selling high dallor tags( 17,000 to 100,000 )tags so you can run down your spider bull with hellicopers and 20 to 30 guys.Sorry just rambling with anger.I do understand there is a nation bowhunter education program, maybe some day it will be in all states.
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All who have posted on this thread make valid points and are right to be disappointed in some of the people who tend to give the rest a bad name.I tend to agree with those that say we can't legislate morality.It shows not only in this case but in all wrinkles of society as well.I grew up in Northern California just 15 miles from the Oregon border on the coast in a small town and I have archery hunted since 1983 I think I only missed one season in the years since and I also rifle hunt every season since 1981 when I was 12 years old.All tags back then were good for bow and gun seasons now just the northwestern tags are and they are over the counter and you can get two.I guess my point is many of us are raising young hunters and that is all about opportunity the more you take them the harder those woods pull them back.I don't think there should be crossbows in archery seasons but if you create a new season for them then when do the deer get a break?Maybe put them in muzzleloader hunts I don't know.I apply me and my wife and my older kids to 2 or 3 states a year besides my own and again its all about opportunity if we are not successful as with this year we will buy archery in Oregon (sorry snag) and over the counter general in Idaho which we might bow hunt but will definitely rifle hunt.I teach my kids to respect the game we hunt and it seems to be sticking.Even though I have spent more of my hunting with a rifle I prepare for archery season far more with practice usually beginning as soon as it quits raining cats and dogs and don't stop when the season starts I think this rubs off on kids and that is how we effect change.Sorry for long post and hope I didn' put ya to sleep or lose ya.Bill
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Hi all,
Here's what we have in Washington, You must choose a hunting method before season and since we have several great draw hunt's, such as around MT St Helens. If you want to apply for one of these draw hunts, archery or any other means to try for one of these tags [ during their approiate seasons] you "Must Buy" your archery, muzzle loader or Modern rifle tags and application form for special hunt way before the season.... These have to be submitted very early as drawings are in June. If unsuccesfull in the draws you can not change your tags. :readit:
As a note for many who are lucky enough to get several deer tags each year, we as a rule only get 1 Deer and 1 elk tag and therefore, must choose our hunting method very carefully. Bear and Cougar are different as I think we can get 2 or 3 as we have a big bear and cougar population that is becomming a problem now that the Liberals in the Seattle area have got hound hunting and baiting stopped :knothead:
I was brought into hunting at the ripe old age of 8 way back in 1959 when it was possible to use anything during the appropriate season [ modern rife, muzzle loader, or archery ] and we did. However, I agree there were lots of guys who had no business shooting at any type of Big game with a bow [ including myself until after comming back from Viet Nam and becomming proficient with my archery gear]. At that time I pretty much put away my firearms and have been using my Trad stuff from then then until now, and will continue in the future for as long as I can keep shooting hunting weight bows and hitting where I'm looking].
I must admit I was really up-set with the game dept. when they made us "Choose" :mad: . However, as the years have passed I have come to appreciate their regulations. I hunt as much as time and money will allow, and have never had to deal with much overcrowding during archery season on either side of the state.
I think I could even support a "Profiency Test" as long as it was done at reasonable hunting ranges. [In my opinion that being 20 yards or less, 8 out of 10 arrows in a 12" paper plate] I feel that would certainly cut down on some of the poor shots made on our Wonderful wildlife.
Just the opinion of an "Old Man" [ hope no one will jump all over me for having one ] :wavey:
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Draws? Don't understand them here in MD. Archery season goes from 15 Sept to 31 Jan for whitetail. Thats with a bow of your choice. I used a xbow for a couple yrs after I was broke up pretty bad. Hated that big cumbersome pos, but it got me in the woods. You need a hunter safety course and can not hunt with a bow during the first days of each season, i.e. gun and blackpowder. Kill as many does as you see fit in a couple counties. Although being in the woods during the first couple days of gun season can be scarey. Some gun hunters don't know the difference between orange and deer brown. There are also several bow only areas to hunt.
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I would like to see trad archery only areas here in Washington because I have see a large increase in compound bow hunters and most I talk with do not have a problem with shoot out to 60 yards on any type of game they see.with the increase in our states population we have also lost the number of days we can hunt and one of the best areas for Elk went to true spike only hunts no mater what type of weapon you use this is do to a large tribal kill in the area for large bulls with no set hunting season the number of archery kill in that area in 2007 was 19 and with rifle it was 149 at the time it was spike only.Really the bottom line I love archery so I tend to be byes.
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Boy, that's a toughie.....
My own personal experience comes strictly from whitetail country and I've never had to deal with either applying for a draw tag or choosing a weapon before a season. I'd rather not have to do either.
There a lot of good points above but maybe I'm just naturally optimistic because I don't completely understand all the negatives. I'd like to think that a certain percentage of guys who buy a bow just before the season so they can hunt more will experience a sort of epiphany like many of us have and realize that trad bows are just FUN, but that they also require a certain amount of dedication. Sure I hate to see guys show up at the range two or three days before the season starts with a bow still in the plastic carton to start "sighting it in" so they can hunt but how may of these guys simply don't know any better? How many of us started out in a similar way? Sort of a "Hey son, I bought you a bow so you can bowhunt if you want. Uhm, no I don't know much about them but just go shoot and you'll figure it out. Looks like they've got directions in the box." How many kids like this could WE as a group, coach or mentor into a better attitude? I see it as being no different than someone who has never hunted anything deciding to buy a gun and give it a try. The desire to hunt is there, they just need some guidance from some of us with a little more experience. Lord knows, they certainly can't find it on tv or in most of the magazines.
Of course, I'll readily admit that there are and always will be bad examples to be found but I like to think that most of the guys who appear to be hunting idiots are just decent guys lacking some proper guidance.
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Sad to say but the compound bow has a lot to do with this situation. I saw a show on the Outdoor channel the other day and there was a UFC fighter with a big buck he shot with a compound. He was interviewed and he said," I just shot a bow for the first time today. I took 12 shots and then went hunting and killed this buck."
And some wonder why the crossbow is so easily being placed in archery season in states where they were never legal before. :(
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Having started hunting in Ohio nearly 2 dozen years ago the crossbow was always legal during this time frame. Funny thing is, though, that the deer herd just keeps getting bigger. They estimate 600,000 plus for this coming season.
I was given a broken Barnett Demon 21 years ago and sold about 1000 blackpowder conicals I had cast to buy the parts to fix it. It got me into the field because I knew I wasn't good enough to hunt with a traditional bow. With one child on the way and 4 more to soon follow and the strong desire to hunt it would do just fine. During all the time spent hunting with it I've yet to stumble upon a deer left to rot with a crossbow bolt sticking out of it. Only stumbled upon those fresh deer I had shot with a bolt sticking out of it. Actually, most of the time the boldt had sliced clean through the animal. It is a tool and it works.
I can believe a man can shoot a compound bow a dozen times and be ready to hunt with it. With all the bells and whistles it is akin to shooting a 22 rifle. If you've practiced enough with a rifle you can easily be proficient with a compound, quickly. They are a tool and they work.
I've always wanted to be an archer, though, so the last 3 years have been spent without the guns and crossbow. The bows, either primative or traditional, are my sole pursue now. I believe I can be proficient with it at this point, too, though it has taken a lot of work. They are tools and they work. But they are the type of tools we want to use.
I hate to break this to you gentlemen but we live in an instant gratification society. Crossbows and compounds are here to stay. On top of that game laws don't revolve around sticks and strings. Our enjoyment does but those who need to keep the legislators and insurance companies from breathing down their necks are constantly looking for more ways to put boots in the field and tags on the growing deer, or whatever else, population.
And, when my son or daughter, who doesn't shoot a traditional bow well enough to hunt with, wants to hunt with me I will gladly hand them the old Barnett Demon whilst a slender piece of wood is held in mind and we will go to the woods to make a good time of it. Ethically, at that.
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Originally posted by ChristopherO:
Having started hunting in Ohio nearly 2 dozen years ago the crossbow was always legal during this time frame. Funny thing is, though, that the deer herd just keeps getting bigger. They estimate 600,000 plus for this coming season.
I was given a broken Barnett Demon 21 years ago and sold about 1000 blackpowder conicals I had cast to buy the parts to fix it. It got me into the field because I knew I wasn't good enough to hunt with a traditional bow. With one child on the way and 4 more to soon follow and the strong desire to hunt it would do just fine. During all the time spent hunting with it I've yet to stumble upon a deer left to rot with a crossbow bolt sticking out of it. Only stumbled upon those fresh deer I had shot with a bolt sticking out of it. Actually, most of the time the boldt had sliced clean through the animal. It is a tool and it works.
I can believe a man can shoot a compound bow a dozen times and be ready to hunt with it. With all the bells and whistles it is akin to shooting a 22 rifle. If you've practiced enough with a rifle you can easily be proficient with a compound, quickly. They are a tool and they work.
I've always wanted to be an archer, though, so the last 3 years have been spent without the guns and crossbow. The bows, either primative or traditional, are my sole pursue now. I believe I can be proficient with it at this point, too, though it has taken a lot of work. They are tools and they work. But they are the type of tools we want to use.
I hate to break this to you gentlemen but we live in an instant gratification society. Crossbows and compounds are here to stay. On top of that game laws don't revolve around sticks and strings. Our enjoyment does but those who need to keep the legislators and insurance companies from breathing down their necks are constantly looking for more ways to put boots in the field and tags on the growing deer, or whatever else, population.
And, when my son or daughter, who doesn't shoot a traditional bow well enough to hunt with, wants to hunt with me I will gladly hand them the old Barnett Demon whilst a slender piece of wood is held in mind and we will go to the woods to make a good time of it. Ethically, at that.
Good post.
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I would have to think that trad archers kill less animals because of our numbers and our need to get closer to our prey. Then why should we have to be lumped into a season that is fulled with compounds and in some states crossbows? If we have guys who are not devoted to archery hunting with a bow is that hindering our ability to get more "trad seasons"?
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When we get traditional only seasons, the wheelie folks are going to want theirs, thus shortening the hunting times. The x-bow folks will then want theirs, the primitive rifles, the high power guns and shot guns. Where will it end? How about the anti's seeing all this in house bickering going on and starts anew with their type of BS. You hunt with what you hunt with. Don't expect that guy next to you to agree with you, just be happy that you are allowed to enjoy what you do. Like it? Heck no, but put up with it, 'tis a lot better'n not being able to at all.
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We all have our own seasons now in Oregon. The muzzeloaders have theirs, the rifles theirs, and the archers theirs. So the rifle (modern rifles and muzzleloaders) already have divided seasons. You have modern rifles and primitive rifles seasons here in Oregon. We have modern bows in compounds and primitive in recurves, LBs and selfbows. We are not going to kill more animals by designating time and area for "trad only" hunts. Why not have designated trad only hunts?
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Actually, I think you do have a really good "trad only" hunt in SE Oregon ? I am not positive but I'm pretty sure I've "heard' of one down around Kalamath Falls? I may be wrong and if so please disregard.
I have not hunted Oregon for years back when I used to live in Scappoose and St. Helens........I do know that lots had changed since then.
Gene :wavey:
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I caution you to think of one thing when you ask to "divide your season". In some statesthere are a muzzle loader season and a modern rifle type season. In many cases this was something that the muzzle loader hunters wanted. What they did not realize was that they now only have as little as a week in some places to hunt. I would not be suprised if you did not see a similar thing happen. Believe it or not we are still out numbered as people who choose to shoot traditional equiptment by those who choose to shoot compunds. We would get the short end of that stick.
I understand the ethics or bad ethics that many have mentioned here. We see it in wyoming also. I personally have seeen it happen with a moose hunter a few years back. They get a once in a lifetime tag and want to TRY it with a bow. I even saw one person screwing broadheads out of the box onto arrows with walmart stickers still attatched and lobing them at a terrific bull moose nearly 90 yards away. There are a few elk areas here that are now a choose your weapon tag.
IMOP the answer does not lie in separate seasons but rather in education. It was mentioned here about the shooting test and McDave made what i think is a very valid point about ruling out an archer who followed the thought of good ethics. however if it was mandatory that each person took the bowhunter education class before being allowed to hunt with a bow a lot of those last minute tag and bow buyers would be out of luck.
Some states have this requirment already maybe a few from those areas could chime in here.
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Oregon does have an excellent trad only mule deer hunt and an area for deer and elk that the first part of the season is for trad and then the remainder is for the wheelies.I think FerretWYO nailed it there is only a limited amount of time in the year to hunt the animals we do without taking too much advantage of the rut ,the winter range and summertime in which the deer and elk are feeding constantly and their antlers are tender so they stay out of cover(I hunt only out west so your area of the world may have its own limitations).If everyone gets their own season then the seasons get shortened and the animals need some breaks.Then who gets the better times (rut,summertime etc.) and who gets the worse times I think we all know where trad archers fall in these groups.As for ethics you can't ram that down someones throat you have to lead by example and hope it catches on but many people just are not capable of accepting the idea.ChistopherO good post although crossbows are not legal here if they were there is probably some point in my life that I would have used one, although that time is not now for me.Bill
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I think that education and being good example to other hunters may be our best option.Hunting is a lifestyle that is getting harder to do.I guess it will be up to use to preserve that right.I am not one to preach to someone how and when to hunt but maybe we will just have to guide others along the way. :campfire:
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One other point, don't most states already allow the use of a lesser weapon in just about any season? Here in MO you can use a trad bow in bow season or gun season. You can use a bow, pistol or muzzle loader in gun season because they are "lesser weapons". Is it really so bad to hunt along with someone else using a different weapon? Heck, I grew up in Pennsylvania where there are over a million hunters in the woods on the first day of rifle season and I never felt like I was in an unsafe situation. My only complaint about bow hunting in their gun season (which I've done) is having to wear hunter orange and that is only because it feels goofy but I've many times had deer in bow range while wearing nearly head to toe orange so it can be done, even from the ground. I certainly wouldn't hunt during gun season without it!
The "lesser weapon" law to me is the real "choose your weapon" situation. What I would be against is having to choose it up front and stick to it. Lets face it, a BUNCH of us live were deer hunting (especially on public land) is a hit or miss proposition and some of us hunt where it can be tough to even see a deer. Also, a lot of guys hunt just as much for the meat as for the experience and are not out there just to listen to the birds chirp.
Ever been in a situation where deer meat in the freezer makes a real difference in your grocery budget??? I currently don't have a job at the moment but I've got some tests and interviews coming up that I'm confident will come through with a solid offer long before the season starts but what about someone who happens to be hurting financially while season is open? I can't begrudge a guy trying to bow hunt or gun hunt to feed his family even if he has had little time to learn how. I would just hope that he has sense enough to know his limitations. I certainly understand the need that sometimes arises to put down the bow and get serious about getting meat in the freezer with a rifle. Way off topic? Maybe but my whole point is the right to make the choice personally within the bounds of the law. If the law says all you have to do to bowhunt is buy a license then that's the law. I don't think there is a state in the country that does not require a general hunter education certification for people under a certain age and some states have darned good programs. Sadly, many states have no mandatory bow hunter education and I think that maybe that would be a good idea since often the general course does not cover archery very well. What about taking your kids hunting with you? Ever tried to bow hunt for real with a 5 year old tagging along? Ain't gonna happen unless you get awfully lucky and have an exceptionally well behaved kid. Most times it just turns into a fun walk in the woods. But take your kid gun hunting and you can watch a deer from a distance, let your KID watch too and actually make a good shot while your kid is along. I don't want to have to choose the bow in advance because I like to bow hunt then not be able to pick up the rifle and hunt with one of my kids later in the year.
However, it's like I said above, I also feel it's our responsibility as bow hunters to sort of police our own ranks and if you find someone who seems headed down the path towards poor ethics, talk to them. I have, and often found that they simply didn't know much better and were more than willing to listen to someone who was able to help. Especially if the "help" was not begun in the form of a criticism or smart a$$ comment.
I certainly understand the need that sometimes arises to put down the bow and get serious about getting meat in the freezer. If anyone wants a law that forces you to choose your weapon in advance, all I can say is be careful what you wish for. Just because you only hunt for fun today doesn't mean you won't be hunting because you are hungry in the future.
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Every year, near my rural home, one can spend days in the woods and not encounter another bowhunter. And this is in Pennsylvania, with the 2nd most hunters in North America...only Texas has more. Frankly, I don't even see the crossbows as an intrusion that will make an impact, and our hunter numbers have gone down over the years.
Fact is boys and girls, over 90% of the ones using crossbows here in this coming season will be those who already shoot compound bows...that is been ascertained through surveys around the state. The hunter numbers will not jump as much as you think in that respect.
As far as separating seasons, that's probably a really bad idea considering hunter numbers nationwide are declining. I would not spend my time lobbying for a separation of equipment.
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Good post ChristopherO. I agree whole heartedly.
"take your kids hunting and you won't have to hunt your kids".
On the other hand I would like to see a traditional archery only season. I do not belieive that crossbows or compounds for that matter should be considered archery equipment.
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Originally posted by Scott S.:
Snag, I feel I need to comment on your use of the term "unethical hunting." I believe the better designation is "unethical hunter." They will exhibit behavior we deem unethical regardless of weapon. I have seen too many "hunters" who believe the end justifies the means--they hunt out of season, poach on other's land, and disregard any DNR regulation they feel limits their chances of a kill. I have no room for them in my camp.
Agree...ethical hunting/hunter is not a product of the weapon. I could/still can shoot bullet holes with my compound out to 50 yards. As a new trad hunter, my wounding rates will most likely be higher...does that make me unethical??? :confused:
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I live in Arkansas, we have had crossbows for 35+ years, and we have a 5 month archery season.
In our state and every other state I've ever studied, crossbows and compounds never resulted in fewer days of season or fewer deer tags available.
Because of the compound, millions are in the archery ranks/numbers. There is power in numbers. Because of compounds many good things have happened.
Now that said, I do think something has been lost with compounds where they are technology wise and crossbows. I think restrictions on crossbows to iron sights would improve the challenge, maybe even a FPS rule or poundage or both.
Same with compounds. No trigger releases, I like the 65% letoff rule that once was.
Technology has turned compounds and crossbows into very accurate 75-100 yard weapons that any of us traditional shooters could be grouping 4-6" arrows in 20 minutes
I would support in some way a choose your weapon season too. However, I like having venison for my family, and its nice to be able to take the rifle out after 6-8 weeks of traditional hunting for the simple purpose of shooting meat does/deer, I'll not lie about that. There is a bridge sometimes between sport of hunting and practicality too.
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Well- I spend a lot of time on this issue.
First off the first anti-hunters were rifle hunters.
The very first anti-bow hunters were rifle hunters.
Rifle hunters have put us down unfairly; and have paid for that when studies like McCalister come along. (Rifle hunters complained about the wounding rate of deer there; and were quick to chastise bowhunters. A study was done by the government as McCalister is government owned. Turned out rifle hunters were wounding more game; and they were no longer allowed to hunt there. Then compound bow hunters complained about traditional bowhunters wounding more animals; and another study was done; and it did not work out well for the compounders).
I must comment on the entry about the crossbows and how no dead animals were found with bolts sticking out of them unless the person just shot them.... then the person goes on to note that most of his shots are pass throughs... think about that.
( And that was not intended in anyway as a slam on that person - at all.)
It would be foolish to say that crossbows are not efficient at casting a broadhead. But its not bowhunting.
There are a couple factors in finding an animal after it is hit. One is knowing where you hit it; and the other is knowing where it was when you shot...which is where the blood trail begins.
Rifle hunters aim for the shoulder; they want the animal to drop in its tracks. I once spent a day tracking down 6 different deer- that rifle hunters said they missed: because the animal did not drop. All 6 deer died within 500 yards of being hit.
The point is that rifle hunters expect an animal to drop in its tracks. And they have a different aiming point. When you are hunting with a bow; the chances of a spine shot and having the animal drop where it is hit: are slim.
So - to take the average rifle hunter and give him a bow in which he can become a proficient shot in ten minutes of practice ...lends nothing to the ability of finding and following blood trails; and when to follow; and when not to.
Then I read here the idea of testing your accuracy with a bow; the concept of 'proficiency testing' being a tool for improving bowhunting.
It is NOT.
Yes we want to be accurate with our bows; but making that the determining factor for who gets to hunt with a bow and who does not is a huge leap in logic. Such a huge leap; it falls into the chasm of illogic.
We do have bowhunter ed classes; the best tests would be concerning shot angles; getting close; and knowing when to shoot. That can mean that on a given day- the correct decision is not to shoot at all. Some days in shooting a bow are 'diamond' and some days are 'stone'. If your having a day where you don't feel confident in your shooting; you should not shoot at an animal. If that day is the day of a proficiency test: it requires the person to shoot when they feel no confidence- and that is the wrong lesson.
Rifle hunters wanted nothing to do with bow hunters- when bows started appearing in the woods. The bowhunters 'woke the deer up and made them harder to kill' etc.
I know people that were furious with me for killing a deer with my bow at 20 yards- when they went the rifle season without getting a deer with their rifle. It was an ego thing. I was hunting for the connection with nature; and some of them were too; but they felt they failed with a long range accurate weapon; where I succeeded with a short range weapon in the same area they were hunting.
In reality:
They did not fail. I did not 'out do' them.
The danger we are seeing is that the rifle hunter that picks up the compound ( or cam bow or single cam bow or whatever they are calling them now) is shooting quickly more accurately than is really necessary to make a killing shot. Shooting a 2 inch group at 40 yards is good; but not necessary for killing a deer ethically with a bow.
Funny thing is; I truly believe that most rifle hunters shoot 'off hand' bigger groups: than they would with a modern compound bow in short order. Oh give them a rest or shooting sticks and they do pretty good; but... I have seen hundreds of gun hunters sighting in their rifles before rifle season; and its pretty obvious most rifle hunters are good enough shots; but not shooting groups we see from the average compound bow shooter.
I am a traditional bow- bowhunter. I need more time to get close; more time to make up for the opportunity to get close... and more time to let myself become part of nature - not just someone there for a kill; and then get back to civilization; or pull out another tag to start stacking the kills up.
Ishis last words were that 'we will meet again in the flight of the arrow' ( and I see it as us as bowhunters ). Ishi had an incredible relationship with nature; and that is what the best of bowhunters follow; the relationship.
I see that as being bastardized by modern shortcuts to the tagging of an animal.
I watch bowhunting shows with incredibly wonderful people - that see a deer etc. approaching- and pull out the range finder; and then draw back their bow and wait and wait until the animal comes to a clear place to shoot. That is in stark contrast to those of us that see the animal approach and have to wait until the animal is stepping into the spot where we can shoot; and risk the animal seeing us draw at that moment.
There are lots of other things; like high fences; shooting animals just because they are 'cull' animals for eventual 'trophy hunting'; and not grasping the value of the animals life; or that the ability of an animal to live wild- is important.
Do I want a separate season ? ... well I want a separate classification. I want traditional bowhunters not to lose time in the field because of the effect of numbers of bowhunters in the field; or the higher take. I know that seems not to be issue in some places; but it is in others.
Aldo Leopold - the father of modern conservation saw this coming; and said that bowhunters should never be used as game management tools. I do think he would take exception to some situations- like 'city deer overpopulation' situations; where guns as weapons: are a hard sell for safety reasons.
But the main theme; that we should never become such a force of nature that we need to be controlled - well that makes sense to me.
And if we have to stand together as traditional bowhunters to achieve that; then so be it.
This is such a hot topic- it makes so many people really mad- mad that they as rifle hunters; or as compound bowhunters might not be able to hunt when traditional bowhunters do... that the very topic seems to be self destructive to us.
But remember- it was rifle hunters that were the first anti- bowhunters. It is rifle / part time bowhunters with compound bows that are our biggest threat now.
These people openly threaten to destroy traditional bowhunting; through lies and innuendos- and 'proficiency testing' - so strong is their anger.
I do not believe we can win these people over - with logic or ethics or anything.
I would be happy to buy a tag for bowhunting a species only. I do think there should be a halfway point. That is an opening for our youth to come into bowhunting - and that path has been the use of a compound bow season that augments the rifle season.
It has worked- but with sacrifice. The sacrifice being the path to bowhunting becoming a superhighway; and the vehicle to get there: being so advanced that its users think we no longer belong on the path at all.
I think making a classification of traditional bowhunting is in order. Its like putting in a stake in the ground and tying yourself to it; and saying 'this is where I will stay- even if it means death'.
I hope the modern bow road takes the masses past us walking instead of riding; and they find another route to take- leaving us safely behind.
Sounds radical; but there are those that would roll in eliminating traditional bowhunting like a dog on a stinky dead animal.
I do strongly believe in rifle hunting; it is the backbone of the second amendment; a place for our youth to learn the rules and responsibilities of handling weapons and taking orders and being regulated.
But hunting with a bow has its roots deep in our instincts; deep - over 9,000 years old in our history - and it needs to be protected as a tradition.
Its up to us how to do this- and it is good I believe to think about it and discuss it.
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Brian, EXCELLENT post!
You brought up a lot of great points. I especially liked the last part:
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"I do strongly believe in rifle hunting; it is the backbone of the second amendment; a place for our youth to learn the rules and responsibilities of handling weapons and taking orders and being regulated.
But hunting with a bow has its roots deep in our instincts; deep - over 9,000 years old in our history - and it needs to be protected as a tradition.
Its up to us how to do this- and it is good I believe to think about it and discuss it."
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In Nova Scotia we are allowed one deer per year in whatever season you get one.
You must have passed a hunter safety course for gun and one for bow if you wish to hunt any game with gun , bow or both.
Crossbow use (so far) is limited to the deer gun season only no other use of the crossbow is permitted. you must have taken the archery course to use the xbow.
here is the outline for the archery course;
Duration: 10 to 12 hours.
Fee: $40.00
The Bowhunter Instructors Association of Nova Scotia conduct the Bowhunter Education Course.
The course includes instruction on ethical responsibilities of bowhunters; laws and regulations; equipment; basic survival skills, first aid, and safety; when to shoot; and hunting.
Pass mark for the written test is 88%. In a practical test, students must successfully shoot three out of five arrows into a 30 cm (12 inch) circle from a distance of 4.5 to 6.0 m (15 to 20 yards).
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Great post Brian!!! :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: