Fletched up 3 FMJ 300 dang. game shafts 32" with brass inserts and 175 up front-close to 700gr total.Used my 67# Tree's long bow.Flight was great at 17 yd.Shot 3 340 FMJ -565 gr. then the three 300 FMJ at 17 yd.The heavier 300's hit 3" lower but penetration was 1-2" less than my 340's in brand new straw bales.The 300's shot dead on but low,and was dissapointed in the penetration.I did this a half dozen times with same results.Go figure?
I would have to believe that other variables were in place for this result. Maybe the bales were more tightly packed where the 300's hit. Different shaped heads? Perhaps slight tuning differences, although you said the 300's flew well.
Took more time to shoot above arrows . The 300DG shafts flew great at 25YD .Shot at 20yd. and they dropped 6 in. more than my 340's and at 25yd. they dropped 11inches more than they did at 17yds. while my 340's hit the same spot as they did at 17 yd.After 17 yd. the 700gr. shafts dropped 1" every yard I shot and always penetrated 1-2" less- same pts.and bales I put up new today-no shot out spots.I can shoot dead on with 565gr.fmj to 25yds but with the 700gr. I would have to hold over 11" to hit the same spot with a less, not much, penetration.The heavy arrows are fun to watch though as they are slower and going down as my 340's are just a dot going to the target.Not very technical but trad. archery isn't supposed to be.
I have no doubt about the dropoff due the extra weight. It's just that, according to my rudimentary understanding of physics, the heavier arrows should outpenetrate the lighter arrows unless some other variable is coming into play. Maybe one of the physics guys will chime in.
Just guessing but perhaps the heavier arrows are so heavy they are causing the bow to be less efficient. There must be a point of diminished return.
What wharvey said.
Could be. But I was under the impression that there was more efficient energy transfer with increasing loads. i.e. heavier arrows. Assuming a 28" draw length, the heavier arrows are only a little over 10 grains per pound.
I shoot a 30 1/4" FMJ DG arrow 0.250 spined with a 75#@29 ACS, alu HIT insert and 200gr point...I get a perfect bare shaft flight as far as 60 yards...you, you shoot a 32" long arrow wich is 0.300 spined plus a brass insert (60 or 100?) and a 175 point with your 67# long bow...I don't know what is your draw legnth and how center shot is your bow but all of that sounds as if your arrow was too weak...poor arrow penetration very often results from a poor arrow tuning ...and poor arrow tuning occurs even with a flechted arrow which seems well flying at 17 yards...
I'de stick with the 340's. I used them on a moose two seasons ago with 225 grain Razorcaps and the moose only went 3 steps before going down and I get pass thru's on everything else I shoot.
I shot 300's when I was using 66# bows with great performance and with 225 + up front. The 340's I shoot now are shot from 60# @ 28". Arrows are 29" BOP and weigh in between 575 and 600 grains depending on the bh I am using. I think Fourdame is correct about your tuning. Sounds to me that the penetration differences are due to something other than simply arrow weight. I would bare shaft or paper tune them to determine just how straight they are flying.
I have noticed that there is a sweet spot, a combo. of bow weight,draw lenght,arrow spine and weight,that gives the best performance.You can prove mathamatically that one will get more penatration / speed and weight combo. but the same goes for an ant picking up 10 times its own wt./can't be done scientifically.Heavy arrows are easier on ones bow and do give better penetration up to a certain point.Just my observations from 50 yrs.of love with archery and bowhunting.
Hmmm, where have I seen these results before! (big grin) It's nice to see guys actually doing tests themselves & not just take for granted heavier will out penetrate no matter how heavy, that's pure BS
Once you cross the heavy line you compromise penetration & trajectory, period! 10grn per # is tough to beat!
ElkNut1
QuoteOriginally posted by elknut1:
Hmmm, where have I seen these results before! (big grin) It's nice to see guys actually doing tests themselves & not just take for granted heavier will out penetrate no matter how heavy, that's pure BS
Once you cross the heavy line you compromise penetration & trajectory, period! 10grn per # is tough to beat!
ElkNut1
I figured you'd weigh in here elknut! :bigsmyl:
Elknut- so you're saying 10.4 grains per lb(what he is shooting CLOSE TO 700 grains, 67 lbs) is pushing the envelope, but 10 grains per lb is the cat's meow?? I'm not certain about that being the issue.
There is a variable in the test medium,materials, or equipment setup you have missed likely making this test show abberant results regarding penetration.
My guess is tuning might be your culprit. You've certainly not PUSHED THE ENVELOPE with arrow weight in my opinion.
I'm not sure where the heavy line is exactly, but I'm relatively sure that it is above 10 grains per pound, which is what is roughly described above. It is great when people do tests themselves, I agree. Real world numbers. When you do tests yourself, though, you have to look for confounding variables. Differences in spine would be one of them.
52 bow: It sounds as if you are happy with the performance of the 340's, so that is probably what you should use.
I'm a little curious about the weight that you calculated for the dangerous game arrows. I have regular 300 fmj arrows that are 30.5" with 100 grain brass inserts and 200 grain tips, feather fletching and an arrow wrap that weigh a couple of grains over 700 grains according to my scale. Your shafts are 1.5 inches longer and weigh 3.5 grains per inch more for a total of around 120-125 grains difference just in shaft weight. Assuming you used a 100 grain brass insert, I would think that your arrows should weigh in at over 800 grains.
In any case, congratulations on your 50 plus years of shooting. I wish you 50 more.
Now THAT makes more sense, PDK25, but that's still 11.9 grains per lb...not really a barrier-bursting weight though.
There is still a anomole in that he is getting less penetration with the heavier arrows. I'm still guessing tuning is the culprit.
I agree with Ray as a arrow that is tuned perfect will out penatrate a un tuned be it heaver arrow for me 10 to 12gr.lb. is perfect
You taking the 4th off, Ray? I guess those pigs deserve a break. Hope those fire ant bites are doing better.
yep...trying to build knives and cook steaks today...tonight we're going to see the fireworks and relax a little.
Heading to St Louis tomorrow for a big client meeting.
No rest for the weary much!
A lot of "girls" (like Connie Renfro) are shooting more than 12gpi and not haviing issues. Sounds like a tuning issue to me :saywhat:
If I hit 11" lower on my target, penetration suffers too. Mainly because the center of my targets get shot so much they are much easier to penetrate. Also I can shoot three exactly the same arrows into the target and get varying penetration results just because of where they hit. Did you use a brand new target?
guys,I used brand new bales and set one vertically so arrows would hit in center, not close to wires.At 25yds.I could see clearly that the heavy 300 shafts were flying perfect, slower so my old eyes could see.Before rain yesterday I tried same test but on a new broadhead target and got same results-lighter shafts penetrated 2" better than heavy ones at 20 yds.both seemed to fly perfect and as stated, I could see the slower heavy ones better.Glad you guys took an interest in my ramblings!By the way my 340 fmj have taken 18 deer and two coyoes and have only kept 4 shafts in the animals-two opposite side shoulder hits, one behind ribs and a head shot coyote!
My experience has been that longbows shoot heavier arrows better than recurves. I think the break point where performance suffers is around 12 g/# with recurves, closer to 15 with longbows.
So many variables...
you seem to listen alot to guys experiences on here and it is always great info but in the end you have to try a few different arrow set up out of your bows and see what works best. I have tried a bunch and know what works for me but I still try others for fun. Agree with elknut there has to be a breakign point of diminished returns when it comes to weight. 10-12gpi seems to work for me. as has been said.
J
I think the guys who say tuning or improper spine are correct.I am sure there is a point of diminishing returns but as stated above it is not going to be a wall where 10 grs. is perfect and 10.4 is lousy it will be a gradual effect that would not be reached without going to extremely heavy arrows.Poorly tuned arrows are not efficient! Bill
When I started bowhunting; you went to the store and bought arrows; and then you shot them to see where they hit. I remember marking arrows 1L meant it shot 'perfect' but to the left. 1R meant it shot 'perfect' but to the right. 2x meant it shot high but 'true'; and -2 meant it shot low.
And I would compensate.
Arrow weight? I still don't know what I am shooting.
I shoot best- either 'Orton specials' ( ask him) or the old reliable for me; 2216 aluminums with long broadhead adapters; 5 inch fletch or 5 1/2 inch - 31 inches long from the inner part of the nock to the end of the arrow shaft. I have shot Zwickey deltas at 135 grains. That is with a 60 pound at 28 inch bows drawn back almost to the broadhead. Both recurve and longbows - D and reflex.
With that I have had complete pass through shots on elk; both through the chest and the neck; pass through shots on bears; pass through shots on dozens of deer- yet... half sticking out on both sides on dozens of woodchucks.
How ever many grains per inch I shoot- the arrows shoot straight and zip through unless they hit bone.
So when I read this thread I have to wonder- you tell me...am I finding perfection with not enough arrow weight; or too much; or just the perfect amount?
IF the person shooting different weight arrows was videoed - would the form be the same with the different weight arrows? I used to compensate with wood arrows - are people mentally compensating with either their release; or their draw length or some other factor?
I truly believe that the best way to find the "perfect arrow" is to go to a trad shoot and try everyones arrows that will allow and see which shoot the best from your bow with your form; your anchor; your release.
? thoughts ?
Well regardless of the cause in your bow with you doing the shooting the lighter arrows are working better.Better stick with them.Calculators and oppionions often don't line up with what happens in the real world when one person is pulling the string instead of another.Numbers are fun but seeing is believing and you should have seen enough to make a good decision on what to use. jmo
Didn't Monty Browning shoot solid fiberglass fish arrows when deer hunting, using 80 or so pound longbows? Any idea what the grain per inch weight would be for them?
Well Howard Hill believed in light fast arrows to get the cast he wanted.His heavy bear arrows were 700gns shot from a 110lb bow.If you do the math he always shot arrows in the 6.5-7gn/lb range for most all his hunting.He did not seem to have any trouble killing stuff. ;)
When you get results that are exactly opposite those arrived at by many, many other testers, it's a good idea to go back and see if you missed something.
never heard such a solid piece of advice Jeff!