will taking to the shelf with a rasp in order to lower it closer to the grip hand alter the way it shoots? will it alter the tiller to much since i would be pulling the string back in a different place.
should i take the throat of the grip up and the shelf down the same amount in order to get the arrow closer to my hand?
at the moment the shelf is 5/8" higher than my bow hand index finger knuckle. i want to drop the shelf about 1/4"-3/8"
will having the arrow closer to my hand make instinctive shooting easier?
I think Fred Bear use to grind down his shelf to where he was shooting off his knuckle or dang close to it.
I once reshaped the grip on a Brackenbury bow using a drum sander so my hand was closer to the shelf. I thought that it would affect the tiller less if I reshaped the grip than if I altered the position of the shelf. However, whenever you change the position of the pressure point of your hand on the bow, you're affecting the tiller, so I'm sure I changed the tiller some anyway. After changing the Brackenbury, I never felt like doing that again. I buy bows that are set up to shoot off the shelf from bowyers who know what they're doing, so I concluded that it was probably stupid for me to think that I could engineer the bow better than they did. Sort of the same reason I don't make my own wine.
It reduces a variable when shooting instinctively if the arrow is closer to your hand, as it minimizes the swing of the front of the arrow back and forth as you change the cant of your bow. Bear in mind that you would probably move the pivot point of the bow closer to the arrow by switching from a low wrist grip to a high wrist grip than you would by reworking the grip and shelf. But if your high wrist grip wasn't as strong as your low wrist grip, your overall accuracy might suffer from the change. As long as you're shooting from your preferred cant, your brain will adjust and a small distance from the arrow to your hand shouldn't matter. It's just when you vary that cant that errors would be reduced if the arrow were closer to your hand.
G Fred Asbell in his book said that before making his own bow's, every time he bought a new bow he would buy a new file to reshape and lower the shelf.
As I understand the tiller issue it is based on the pressure point/trouth of the grip. Lowering the shelf would not change that. It would effect your nock height but thats differant between folks anyway. I know I shoot a high nock, so I would say if your not happy with the shelf change it. After all bow are made to shoot not hang on a wall and if you can make one shoot better do it.
My two cents !!
DJ
i've just been told by a reputable bowyer that lowering the shelf will have adverse effects on the tiller and that i should modify the grip, to place the bowhand closer to the shelf.
now i'm in doubt about what is the best way. :help:
I would talk to the Bowyer who made your bow to hear from him how changing the grip or shelf might affect that bows tiller. Having said that, I would side with lowering the shelf, rather than raising the throat of the grip. The overall balance of the bow is established at the throat of the grip. I do change the configuration of bow handles all the time, but not so I can get my hand closer to the shelf. My hands are large and are at the shelf regardless of that. I would always opt to have the arrow across the top of my hand though, as many others have stated.
Ozy I have taken files to my Blackwidows,Bighorns, Martins andHoward Hills and when I finished they shot the way I wanted them to.Never had a tiller problem. If it not shooting like you want what can you lose?
what do you use to refinish the bow with after making saw dust.
That small amount of movement isn't going to effect much of anything in IMO Ozy. It'll probably improve limb timing/lessen handshock (if any) by bringing the dynamic and static forces closer together. A sligthly straighter wrist/grip may help also. Just one man's opinion though. Good luck.
ART B
I would use minwax spray polyurathain, or gun stock finish Benchwood/casey. I usually lower my shelf and adjust the throat to fit my hand. In my opinion, if you went to the bow maker and told him what you wanted, he would do the same thing to fit the bow to your liking. I think that the archer has to fine tune his bow to his liking. But by all means shoot the bow long enough to know exactly what you want the bow to do and how to make it do that.
I don't know why a "reputable" bowyer would tell you that, unless he wanted to sell you a bow 8^).
The throat of the grip is the center of the bow...the pivot point. Lowering the shelf would have 0 effect on tiller, unless you were shooting off exact center of the bow...the pivot point. Then you would only need an even tiller at most.
I've done that on many old bows I've owned and it works great. This tiller thing is not as important as we think it is, as long as things are done within reason. The nocking point is more important under the discussed situations.
Make the bow work for you.
I love the way old Howatt's shoot but find the shelf and sight windows not to my liking. Here is a early 70's Hunter I crowned the shelf, radiused the sight window and added a paradox channel like a Widow. Worked fine and very easy to do.
(http://i525.photobucket.com/albums/cc333/jcj138265/Howatt2.jpg)
Oz, even if you did mess up the till a little that can be fixed also with a little sanding of the limb. It doesn't take much. As far as refinishing, I have always used a polyurethane in flat or satin. Good luck and remember take it slow and in small amounts at a time. Also if there is a fiberglass overlay on the riser make sure you file towards the inside or you will chip the edges.
Ozyclint, I know a lot of the guys on the history forum do this. in fact that Bowdoc does for those that dont want to do it themselves.
Mickey
Well said George. Go for it Ozy.
Chuck-
Bow Doc, has a great build along on cutting the shelf down. Here is the link in the History forum.
It gets real good on page two with pics and all.
http://tradgang.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=14;t=002562
Rob..
going to give it a go tomorrow.
Clint just take your time and work it down slowly.You can actually lower the shelf with the bow strung and just shoot a few shots off the bare wood as you work your way down with the shelf.You'll find a sweet spot.keep us posted bd
thanks bow doc. i read your article in the link above. nice work.
would polyurethane resin varnish (marine clear varnish) be okay to finish with? it seemed to be alright when i used it on my wifes recurve after crowning the shelf.
I have done what you want several times.Still being honest it made no difference in the way I shot the bow.Having the arrow down close to your hand is overated as far as I am concerned.I shoot my best with a rest that is up higher than the shelf myself. jmo
james- that may be so but i can always build it back up to where it was with some leather if i find it makes things worse. nothing ventured nothing gained.
I recently modified the grip on a Bighorn t/d recurve that I custom ordered in 1994. I ordered it with a "small grip" and my request was obviously overlooked. The throat depth and width were too large for my small hands and the shelf was also about 1/2" above the highest part of my hand. I shot it this way for years until I finally worked up the nerve to modify it. Nothing ventured, nothing gained.
Instead of lowering the shelf, I chose to gradually raise the pivot point on the grip, thus bringing the shelf closer to my hand. In the process I also narrowed the grip and reduced the throat depth. I wish I would have done it years ago. The bow is much more comfortable to shoot and I find that I am putting less torque on the grip and the shelf is now right on top of my hand.
Place the riser in a vertical position in a vice using a thick piece of leather as a pad. Use a quality 1/2 round wood file (I used a Nicoholson #49 cabinet maker's rasp) and go SLOWLY constantly testing the grip with your hand until it is just right. Then sand with the grain using 100/120, 150/180, then 220 grit paper until all tool marks are removed. Then dust the worked area with a polyurathane spray can.
Ozy,
With lots of caution and confidence, get that wood off of there.
I absolutely love my 1965 Kodiak but couldnt stand how high the shelf was. It made me shoot high. Then I learned how Fred Bear took his shelves waaaay down on his own bows. I even saw pics of his personal bows. He took them freakishly low. So I went at it. Man, what a difference.
I'm no "reputable bowyer", but in my slefbow experience and study of glass bows, I dont see where your tiller would be effected much, if any. If it did it would essentially create the same effect as positive tiller, which is a good thing.
Fred Asbell and Fred Bear are fairly reputable bowyers, ;) and I know what they would do.
i took it down today. easily done.
with shelf material on (velcro) the bottom of the arrow is 1/4" above the top of my hand. it just seems more natural to me now.
i put a little paradox channel on too, like someone showed here somewhere. (outside of shelf is a little lower than where the arrow sits)
i'll get to sealing it tomorrow.
easy job, i wouldn't hesitate at doing it again.
i'll get some pics later.
yes Clint the poly is good and the marine is even better.Pic's later ??? bd
(http://i530.photobucket.com/albums/dd349/ozyclint/cruise2009006.jpg)
(http://i530.photobucket.com/albums/dd349/ozyclint/cruise2009007.jpg)
the two black marks are from test shooting some of my carbons. i'll sand them out tomorrow before i start to seal it.
Looks like your contact points are a bit forward for "optimum"...as in they should probably be above the deepest part of the grip......
I need to work on a bow I have here to radius the shelf and site window :scared:
i just read O.L's tuning guide. he mentions that. i'll change it.
should both contact points be above the deepest part of the grip?
or does the position of the strike plate contact point not matter so much. it would be hard to move it back when the site window is radiused with the middle part being the thickest.
QuoteOriginally posted by ozy clint:
should both contact points be above the deepest part of the grip?
or does the position of the strike plate contact point not matter so much. i would be hard to move it back when the site window is radiused with the middle part being the thickest.
I have always wondered the same thing. Fortunately for me, the bows that I modified had a flat strike plate, so the ol' toothpick behind the strike plate worked so that the contact points were lined up. It makes sense especially if you ever shoot canted.
i couldn't bring the shelf contact point back without lowering the back side of the shelf a heap. it would be too low then. i could place something under the shelf material in the right spot.
is it going to make a big difference? i haven't seen any bows where both contact points are directly above the deepest part of the grip.
Clint I always lower the shelf on all my personal shooters.Also I like to make the bow a bit closer to being center shot by removing extra stock from the sight window.bd
The rest should be as far forward as you can get it, and the contact point on the side plate should be directly above the deep point of the grip. That's where you find the best stability, according to Dan Quillian. He set his personal bows up that way, and I do too!
Here's a picture of a crude but effective alteration that I did on one of Dan's later bows, using his methods.
(http://i329.photobucket.com/albums/l376/don-stokes/005.jpg)
You can see from the wear on the side plate that the contact point is above the deep point of the grip, and there's a little leather square glued to the most forward point on the shelf.
While Dan could still shoot, he was working on a design that actually put the rest out in front of the back of the bow, by building it out with putty. It looked weird, and he knew it wasn't marketable, but he claimed that it shot better that way. He loved to tinker, and would take a bow to the belt sander in a heartbeat.
And yes, I cut the shelf away with my pocket knife, and never went back to smooth it out. Crude, like I said. The cutaway shelf gives you more latitude when you can't get perfect form in a hunting situation. Dan's last bows made while he still owned Archery Traditions were made with a cutaway shelf, but the new owners changed it back. Thought it looked too weird, I guess, but it really works.