Okay, I'm ignorant to aluminum footing installed onto carbon arrows. I have been researching the topic the world over and I still don't understand the procedure.
#1-Do you install the aluminum piece of shaft to where it's flush with the end of the carbon shaft? And then screw your point into the HIT insert, and the back of the point fits up against the footing?
#2-I see where some people leave the insert in the aluminum footing, I think, and then put it onto the carbon shaft?
#3-Can someone please post some detailed pics of their carbon arrows with the footing installed?
#4-Do people hunt with footed carbon arrows? And do I need to taper the back end of the aluminum footing?
I'll be using Beman MFX Classic 500 arrows cut to 29.25" w/100 gr. brass HIT inserts installed and 125-145 gr. points. Can I still use my broadheads without footing and without modification to the ends of my arrows?
Thanks to everyone for their patience and help!
Doug
Interesting questions...been wondering the same myself.
I have footed my Beman MFX Classic 500 with a 1" piece of 2020.I put it flush with the point,so 5/16" points fit flush.And I did taper the back end with a deburring tool or you can use a file,the taper helps for target removal.So you don't have a 90 degree lip on the aluminum piece.I just used my insert epoxy,24 hr. epoxy for installing the foot.Can't do pic's.I have only footed Axis/MFX if I plan on using long heavy points.They can put alot of leverage on the open end of the shaft on a glancing blow off a hard object.
#1 is the correct way.
Here is a pic. Footing the HIT type shaft strengthens up the unsupported 1/2" or so before you get to the insert.
(http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b351/osminski/DSC00729.jpg)
Okay, I understand that the MFX shafts are all 9/32" diameter. If this is true, then why do I see where people are using 2016, 2018, and 2020 arrows for footing MFX 340s, 400s, and 500s, respectively?
I'll be hunting with my arrows and also stumping and target shooting/3D shooting with the same dozen arrows. Do I need to foot my arrows?
They all have different outside diameters thus the different shafts.
All MFXs have the same internal diameter; allowing them all to use the same HIT insert. The OD gets larger as the staff gets stiffer. That is why each shaft needs a different ID of footing.
I try to use an aluminum footing that fits fairly snug but not tightly over the carbon shaft. Just a few thousanths for glue or epoxy is all that is needed. I foot all carbons since I also stump shoot and hunt with them. They have saved several arrows for me and give me a little more confidence for a hit on bone or more likely the leg in a 3d target or a tree. Good luck.
Thanks everyone for the input. Now, I guess I'll be looking for a 2020 aluminum shaft. :D ;) :rolleyes:
Beman MFX Classics-
shaft/footing
500 - 2020
400 - 2018
340 - 2016
What size for heritage 150's and 250's??
http://tradgang.com/noncgi/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=074690#000000
Does this help?
Maxwell, I have heard people use 2117, but the fit is very tight. I think 2216's will be perfect for ya. I know there is a thread somewhere on what aluminum to use on any specific carbon shaft...
Ok found the thread, I will paste the info...
QuoteOriginally posted by dino:
This would be cool to have a compete list of footing sizes. Here was what I have compiled with the blanks someone might file in for us.
Beman MFX Classics
500 - 2020
400 - 2018
340 - 2016
Beman ICS Bowhunters
500 - ?
400 - ?
340 - ?
300 - ?
ST Epic
600 - 2016
ST Excell
500 - 2016
Axis ST
500 - 1916
400 - 1916
340 - 2020/2018
300 - 2016
Carbon Express Heritage
90 - ?
150 - 2117/2216
250 - 2117/2216
350 - 2215
Carbon Express Terminators
4560 - 2216
5060 - 2216
6075 - 2216
Arrow Dynamic
Lite - 2413
Reg - 2413
Gold Tip Traditional
3555 - 2117
5575 - 2216
7595 - ?
Old Beman Classics
500 - ?
400 - ?
340 - 2219
Old Carbon Excell
400 - 2117
More shafts that need to be added?
Fill in the blanks and I'll update the list. dino
Axis 500s fit best in a 1918
#1 Yes to both #1 & #2 I use both techniques
#2 yes these have the aluminum inserts and double footing over carbon and I do taper the back ends.
(http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w27/kingwouldbe/Arrows/P1010075-2.jpg)
I have used single and double footing, I like double footing.
(http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w27/kingwouldbe/DSCN3367-2.jpg)
#4 yes people hunt with footed carbons
(http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w27/kingwouldbe/DSCN0277.jpg)
(http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w27/kingwouldbe/Arrows/DSCN3559-1-1.jpg)
O.l & Doc Ashbey have done a lot of testing on the internal footing and I think it might be superior to external footing, just not made any yet.
Wow, David, that's some great info there. Much appreciated!
I guess I'm gonna try some 2020s on my MFX Classic 500 arrows.
Thanks everyone!
Doug
Can you show with pics how you put the insert and where the aluminum start on the carbon?
QuoteOriginally posted by cacciatore:
Can you show with pics how you put the insert and where the aluminum start on the carbon?
Check out this video from Pac:
http://tradgang.com/noncgi/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=074690
Thanks guys for the info.
I'm gonna give it a try, as I understand it I cut 1 " piece of 2216 whip up some epoxy and put it inside the foot and slide it up over the shaft.
Is that about it?
Bill
This is a 2018 over the out-sert on my set up, with the shaft all put together, this was my 1st attempt
(http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w27/kingwouldbe/DSCN3364-3.jpg)
I then tried two aluminum shafts with an insert in a 1716 and a 2018 over that, which I like, but I made it to long 3", I am going to shorten it to 1 3/4
(http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w27/kingwouldbe/Arrows/P1010075-2.jpg)
This is how I taper the shaft, you can use a stone or a file, the file is faster.
(http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w27/kingwouldbe/DSCN3362-1.jpg)
This was my first try, they have 2018 shaft over an aluminum out-sert with a 125 grain steal adapter, a Grizzly 160& 190's with high EFOC, 3"4 fletch, shaft diameter is extremely small at .230 it fits inside an Easton excel.
The reason I cooked these up, is I want to give my arrow every advantage I can.
In Doctor Ashbeys report he states: Structural Integrity of the entire arrow system is the most important factor
(http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w27/kingwouldbe/P1010079-1.jpg)
(http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w27/kingwouldbe/DSCN3017.jpg)
(http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w27/kingwouldbe/DSCN3015.jpg)
I would like to try the internal footing with an external footing next.
This is a must read.
http://www.tradgang.com/ashby/2007update8.pdf
To sum up Doc's study( which is hard to do):
#1 supper strong shaft and components ( indestructible)
#2 Must fly like a lazerbeam
#3 20% EFOC or more
#4 A high Mechanical advantage, deep penetrating broadhead ( the worst 2 blade, beats the best 3&4 blade's)
#5 Skinny, skinny, skinny shaft that can handle the EFOC and fly like a lazerbeam
#6 Heavy arrows ( which is a big variable depending on what and where your hunting)let's say as heavy as you can with responsible trajectory) if I'm hunting out of a tree and I know I wont shoot over 15 yards, I would loud that puppy up 700-800+ grains, why? I don't have to worry about trajectory, my bow is quieter, I have more mass in motions, it's win win.
However if I have to shoot out to 30 yards ( we do it all the time out west on the ground)I might want better trajectory, so I might have to stay around 550-600 grains.
#7 I just coped the Doc. here: (A smooth, beard-shaving
sharp, honed and stropped edge works best. Its advantage is
most pronounced in fibrous tissues. In these it shows a 26%
advantage over a smoothly-filed sharp edge and a 60%-plus
advantage over 'Hill type' serrated edges. It's an advantage
available for all broadhead designs, for all arrows.
This has and will be argued tell Jesus comes back.)
Me I like stropped and polished for profuse hemorrhaging, it's science :p
If your a light tackle guy everything is even more important.
I know some of the rockheads will say the cave man didn't have any of this and he killed with a light bow and arrow etc.... hey go knock your self out if that's what you want, the information's there for the taking.
Thank you guys you are very helpful like everybody here in this great site.Felix
Wouldn't a 100 grain brass insert be about the same as internal footing?
30coupe,
Your right about the weight, but not the integrity of the arrow.
As the arrow is moving forward, then comes to resistance's or stopping abruptly some thing has to give, usually it's the arrow coming over the insert or splitting at the insert, impeding penetration.
With external footing the integrity of the arrow stays together, thus, something else has to give, that would be bone or anything else in the way of the arrow, until it has used all of it's energy.
Does it really matter how sharp your broadhead is if the arrow snaps as it comes in contact with a big boar shield, shoulder blade, etc... and never gets to the vital organs.
From a tree stand I could see this happening a lot more often.
This is a scapula from a small boar I shot early'er this year in his bed at 9 yards, the arrow came through the top of his back through the scapula and cut his lung in two,
(http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w27/kingwouldbe/DSCN0493.jpg)
as you can see it cut off the ridge and still had enough energy to make it through the second bone and down into the lung.
(http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w27/kingwouldbe/DSCN0490.jpg)
The red arrow shows the path the real arrow took except he was on his other side.
(http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w27/kingwouldbe/DSCN0291-1.jpg)
CVD was the place I was hunting.
(http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w27/kingwouldbe/DSCN0488.jpg)
I thought I would show the arrow also, I got 17" of penetration and he snapped it off as he ran by me under a oak branch, broke the knock and striped off 2 of the feathers.
Oh! I also pilfered the broadhead which I don't like to do, but it was a 3 hog day and I needed it
LOL
(http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w27/kingwouldbe/DSCN0494.jpg)
Anyone worked out a good solution to footing MFX arrows with the HIT insert already installed? On new arrows without the HIT insert installed, should I foot first and then install the insert?
Red Boar, I'm not sure about the MFX, but I'm sure someone here can give you the recipe.
I do a pre-fit before I glue every thing up, by the way I love Gorilla grip glue, I dip both parts in water and it expands to make a super tight fit.
Red Boar,
Doesn't matter if you put the HIT inserts in before or after. Make sure the front of the shaft and front of the foot are even and flat; I use a G5 ASD for that. I run the back of the footing in my RCBS chamfer tool to put the taper on the backside of the foot.
Gorilla glue is good, but I got a tip from Joe Coots about JB Weld...it is the BOMB!
So you are screwing the BHd into the carbon still the footing just glued to the carbon arrow itself?
J
That's the only way I've done it. Looks like David has a couple other twists.
I was just curious as to how an internal footing would help. Unless it is quite long and lightweight, it seems to me it wouldn't help any more than the brass insert.
Since I often use the inserts, I would have to foot externally. I still haven't found a good fit for my ICS Bowhunter 500s, but I think I will probably try to foot them eventually.
QuoteOriginally posted by Red Boar:
Anyone worked out a good solution to footing MFX arrows with the HIT insert already installed? On new arrows without the HIT insert installed, should I foot first and then install the insert?
Are you like me and concerned about getting glue inside the end of the arrow and then not being able to get all the glue out? Not sure if everyone knows what a "HIT" insert is. It's totally internal, as it goes in about an inch inside the end of the shaft. If I get glue inside my shaft with HIT insert already installed, and I don't get every bit of the glue out, I'm liable to not be able to get my screw-in point out either! That's why I am wondering if you gotta put glue on both surfaces, the inside of the footing and outside of the shaft, or can you get away with just putting glue on the outside of the carbon shaft?
IS4T,
To install the external foot, I put a dab of JB Weld on the shaft and spin the foot on to get a nice even coat. A little goes a long way! Have a couple Q-tips ready if you are worried, but you will get the hang of it. You don't need much epoxy/glue; you are only trying to fill in .001" of space.
30COUPE,
Though I have not done internal footing yet ( but I did stay at a Holiday inn last night :eek: ) LOL, it is about 6-7" and is tapered to dissipates the energy as it has room to give after about 2".
The long internal taper spreads out the energy like a flyrod does, it you footed a fly rod half was up the rod, it would snap right there, but if you taper it, it spreads out the same amount of energy over several inches.
So with external footing we have only moved this "hinge" down the shaft, it not a true fix.
If your worried about glue going into the threads get a tap and you can clean your threads any time, also I put a field point into the insert before I assemble it together, you don't have to put your insert in first, you can put it in after you have footed the carbon shaft.
ttt
Hmmm, I wonder if a guy could talk to a local compounder archery shop and ask them to save all their cuttings from when they build up aluminum arrows for store customers? Might be a good cheap way to get a bunch of different sized pieces just right for these type footings.
I know this is a little off from the original post but I thought some of you might be interested.
I am new to traditional and have 4 to 5 dozen 55/75 gold tip pros from my compound. I tried to make them work with heavy 200 to 300 grain heads and found that they broke up very easy. I found your various posts on footing carbons and found some 11/32 x .014 round brass tubing and guess what? I cut pieces little over 3/4" and the came in at 50 grains. I used a plumbers tubing cutter and the deburing tool from my reloading stuff. Here is the result. Using the Dynamic spine calculator (set up for Trads not Pros) 545gr arrow with 302 grains up front for 24.1 % f.o.c. The weight was off because pros weigh less than trads but they shoot perfect from my bow.
Like I said I know this is a little off the subject but those of us from the dark side have a chance to bring some wheel bow stuff into the light :) )
Heres a picture of the done deal.
(http://i604.photobucket.com/albums/tt121/coaster500photos/Picture001.jpg)
http://i604.photobucket.com/albums/tt121/coaster500photos/Picture004.jpg
ttt
I've got Easton Traditional Only 400's. They take 5/16 inserts. Anybody know what size aluminum I would use for a footing on these?
Hey King you've got to try an internal footing I can't believe what a difference it makes.I had some precut easton FMJ's I needed to stiffen a bitJB welded a 7" piece of oak dowel and got the dynamic spine right (bullet holes thru paper)It worked well but moved the break point further back.The I tried tapering them and there almost bomb proof.I just started putting a 2" external foot over that and haven't broken one since.I'll try to get some pics up this sounds to confusing.
ttt
I always have a hard time tossing out the scrap pieces of 2117 and 2018 aluminum arrow shafting after cutting them down to size. I end up keeping them in a cup on my workbench for whatever I might use them for. I now have a really good use! This is a cool idea.
They work really well. I shot a 3/4" sheet of steel with one of my arrows. It was 820 grains, 32% FOC with the aluminum footings flying at 170 fps.
The field point and insert collar broke off with no damage to the arrow.
Works great.
If you decide to toss your 2117 cutoffs just toss them in the mail to me.. :pray:
This is a GT Ultralight Entrada with 2117 footing fitting right under the lip of the insert collar then 2317 footing fitting over everything. Really seems to hold things together well and add to FOC as necessary.
(http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x39/Sapcut/101_3602-Copy2.jpg)
101 ways to skin a cat hey.
here's how i do some of mine, for the little extra effort it takes to put footings on it really gets extra life out of your arrows, i foot back and front, different lengths of footing depending on what i will use the arrows for.
i dont need any extra length out of my arrows so i foot to the front of the arrow so that the back of the BH is against the footing and the arrow shaft on HIT insert arrows or lever with the front of the insert when using a regular insert.
i have a few different idea's for next time but these are some i have ready to go for this year.
Get yourself a great deal on the Goldtips from Big Jim and whack some footings on and you have Tuff cheap set of carbons.
(http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h101/tradtusker/IMG_1592.jpg)
(http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h101/tradtusker/IMG_1593.jpg)
(http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h101/tradtusker/IMG_1599.jpg)
Here's My Big game Arrows
(http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h101/tradtusker/IMG_1587.jpg)
(http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h101/tradtusker/IMG_1589.jpg)
(http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h101/tradtusker/IMG_1588.jpg)
(http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h101/tradtusker/IMG_1604.jpg)
here is a look at the footing i put on the back of the arrows, i also hotmelt the nocks in to stop them popping out on direct impacts.
(http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h101/tradtusker/IMG_1591.jpg)
(http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h101/tradtusker/IMG_1590.jpg)
here's a great How to Video my buddy Yononindo did a while back
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M_Gm5Zf9G9g
well worth a play with if for those that have never tried footing arrows before
happy hunting :thumbsup:
just for your info i have found-
gold tips-
55/75 - 2117
75/95 - 2219
big game 100+ - 2216
Looks great Tradtusker.
Love to see arrows with a quiet confidence while in the quiver but once they are nocked they are "9 feet tall" and a little cocky.
Thanks Richie, and iv got a bunch of the new Grizzly 200's to go on the front end to replace the 190s
those 200s really are nice.
shaft/footing matches (http://tradgang.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=2;t=000098)
Always check the How To's
Tradtusker,
Did you get the 200 Grizz for 3Rivers? It looks like they are back ordered now.
The 200 Grizz on the business end of your arrows can't be beat in my book.
Ya Richie, i got them from 3river i while back.
i have them all sharpened up taped up ready to go.
Is that a 250gr fieldtip you have modified/ tapered to go directly into the grizzly i cant tell from your pics? and what spine Gt Ultralite you using for you set-up? 300?
Trad,
Yes that is actually a 225 field point tapered making it a 210 gr. adapter. They work really well. I can make them from 160 gr. to 225 grains.
It gives me 9/16" more in draw clearance which allows for cutting arrow shorter than normal. That, of course, stiffens to allow for Ultra FOC.
That arrow is a 846 gr. GT Ultralight entrada 300 with 34.0% FOC.