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Main Boards => PowWow => Topic started by: allan f on June 13, 2009, 12:14:00 PM
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So I want to know the mechanics of a lung hit and a blood trail. I know that the lungs are controlled by the diaphragm contracting which causes the lungs to expand. They are in a vacuum within the chest cavity. When an arrow goes through the lungs there is bleeding from all the vessels that have been cut.
My questions is on those big spraying blood trails, is the diaphragm contracting and relaxing (trying to cause the lungs to inflate) what blows the blood out of the entrance and the exit wounds?
If so does a shot quartering away give a poorer blood trial due to the diaphragm being cut?
I would just like to know all the details of the shot and how we get the best blood.
Any thoughts or corrections would be great thanks,
Allan
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Allan, very interesting question.
I'll be watching this thread to see what developes.
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Just a guess, but i would think the spraying is on the exhale portion of the breath were the hole has taken place of the nostrils.
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I would guess to say that the hole int he lungs is a basic sucking chest would. Arteries and veins being cut dispell the blodd on the ground. Many different factors cause death this way though - ya gotta figure blood gets in the way of oxygen exchange, air escaping into the chest cavity causes collapsed lungs, the sheer fact that a lack of negative pressure due to the holes does not allow for good breath exchange.
So it is pretty complex though I am not a doctor I have been around some collapsed lungs and sucking chest wounds (not millitary but fire) I figure a doc on here can really get down to the nitty gritty.
J
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Figure when you breath your ribs expand creating negative pressure in your chest pulling air in through your mouth/nostrils. Now imagine there being 2 more holes for air to enter your chest cavity that WILL NOT be entering your lungs. This air is in your chest cavity leaving less room for your lungs to expand - not a good situation.
J
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Think of a compressor, the whole circulatory system is under pressure from the hart, if you cut the line or puncture the system, the hart/compressor kicks in and try's to regenerate pressure .
As the hart speeds up trying to regain pressure in the system it blows fluid out of the hole.
As the blood pressure continues to drop the animal go's unconscious, then bleeds to death.
A doctor could explain it more accurately.
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Pretty much like going to sleep one really. due to lack of O2 everything just kinda shuts down like a light switch.
J
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What Kingwouldbe said...if you cut arteries and veins, as long as the heart is pumping, blood will be leaking ...doesn't matter from what direction they are cut. :)
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I would just like to know all the details of the shot and how we get the best blood.
Two holes are better than one :bigsmyl:
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I wish I had stayed at a Holiday Inn last night :biglaugh:
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I`m no doc, but I think King has is explained pretty good.
The bigger the vessels cut the bigger the flow.
More forward in the lungs the better for blood on the ground, because the vessels are bigger. As luck would have it, forward in the lungs means you get some of the mains on the top of the heart.
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What king said and I will add, with a good double lung hit most of ths blood sprays out the mouth and nose.
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King got it. Heart is the pump - an amazing pump - in a 140lb human, resting cardiac output is 5liter/min - during intense exericse (i.e. running full speed after being shot) the cardiac output can reach 25-40Liters/min. Now, imagine, that, of that 25L/min, a big majority is being pumped forcefully, through a system that is usually closed but now (b/c of a well placed shot) is open. I teach Exercise Physiology at a university and use these examples in class - Friend of mine named Phil Bishop wrote an article that was published in Deer and Deer Hunting about deer blood a few issues back - its worth a read.
matt Green
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bleed out there nose an mouth.
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Got to ask a silly question?? If they bleed out their nose and mouth, and yes they do, why do so many argue about the slit of a 2 blade and the hole of a three blade??
Have we just made that arguement null and void??
J
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J-dog,
A fair amount comes out the holes too. The spray pattern stuff is from the mouth and nose. The ketchup bottle squirts are from the holes. There are lots of arteries in the chest cavity (lungs, heart, and liver all have large arteries). Two holes from a three blade makes tracking easy and short.
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the lower the holes in the chest the more blood and the quicker you get it as well...gravity pools the blood low.
with a high double lung you may not get much blood at first because the cavity has to fill some to generate enough pressure.
either way put the arrow in the boiler room and your good to go!
stone knife nailed it though!!
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I agree with dead bolt, location the hit in the lungs can play a big part.I have had two animals hit high in the lungs and blood trails were light, but the lungs were full and they didn't go far.The way I understand it a hole though both lungs will cause the lungs to collapse and 3/4 away just make a bigger hole.Great question!
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Two holes in the chest cavity will cause a deer to go down quicker due to the fact that it causes negative pressure on the outside of the lungs -especially if it is cold air( there is a technical term for this -something double thorax ). The diaphragm will try to work the lungs pumping blood out both holes. The nasal and throat cavities will spray blood out the nose and mouth. Because the lungs will not work the diaphragm the loss of oxygen/blood causes death very very quickly. Now that is my explanation in hillbilly , someone will get on here and blow my explanation out of the water.
Not a doctor
Just shot a lot of deer
Jack
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maybe a "pneumothorax"....yes i stayed at a Holiday Inn express! lol...the physiology of the "why" the deer dies isn't nearly as important as the anatomy of the "why" the deer dies. Lower and forward in the lungs leaves better blood than high and back in the lungs. Two holes are better than one. Most of the blood trail is left by the entrance and exit wounds...not out the mouth and nose of a lung shot deer. 3 slits are better than 2 slits, but I getter better penetration from 2 with my light weight draw...JMHO... ;)
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in advance, sorry for my poor language, I´m from Europe, therefore my english is far from perfect and i have to admit I have no experience in bowhunting - which is not allowed in my coutry. But I m a MD, and I will try to enlight this topic from that point of view:
For a lung or double lung hit the following mechanisms will most likely lead to death:
The lung is ventilated (expanded) due to negative intrathoracal pressure: lowering the diaphragm (a muscle) and to a lesser extent expanding an elevating the ribs (intercostal muscles between all neighbouring ribs).
The lung adheres to the inner wall of the thorax (chest) because there is a special fluid between lung and thorax that does not expand due to negative pressure (like gas does). this fluid also provides "gliding properties" for the two moving surfaces of lung and inner thorax wall. This mechanism is called Adhesion.
If you now pierce the thorax(chest) wall, the very narrow fluid filled gap between thorax- wall and lung tissue will fill with air, and this in cosequence will lead to a collaps of the lung,( because the lung itself has a elasticity on its own that enables the expiration as a overall passive action; if the body is in exertion (e.g. an anmal hit by an arrow)also expiration (breathing out) becomes an overall active action.
for making the lung collaps you wont even need to pierce the lung itself.
The collapsing of the lung is called a Pneumothorax (air fills the thoracal gap between lung and inner thorax wall)
If you hit just one lung and no major arteries.
The healthy organism can compensate well with the remaining second lung on the other side.
There are cases where young people suffer from spontaneous pneumothoraxes and walk into the ed with very minor complaints such as little dyspnea only on exertion (seen it myself).
There is one exception which is called a
valvular pneumothorax, a dangerous condition where the entrance wound in the chest forms a valvular mechanism(due to a tissue flap), which enables air to go in but not to flow out. The positive pressure in the hit side of the chest causes the heart to shift on the opposite (healthy) side and compresses the main vessels on the base of the heart which in the worst case leads to death due to a stop of circulation.
A one chest wall or one lung hit without nicking major vessels that causes the lung to completely collapse anyhow will lead to death after days due to the inability of the lung to expand again and the resulting infection(pneumonia)which will affect a non ventilated lung in all cases.
If you pierce the chest wall on both sides (double lung), no hit of major arteries is needed to cause death. if the hole is to big to close itself again in minutes, the organism will lose its ability to reoxygenate the blood, and will fall unconcious in two minutes (maybe faster in a state of exertion, where more o2 is needed)and die within five minutes from oxygen depletion.
Therefore from my point of view the double lunged animal, that dies quickly (minutes), dies in unconciousness because of oxygen depletion mostly.
If you only hit one lung you have to nick major vessels to cause the animal to die quckly (within minutes), if you don´t produce the rare case of a severe valve pneumothorax.
The reason for the Spraying blood through mouth or nose of the animal are the injured bronchi which are all accompanied through veins and arteries.
For the case of a hit of major vessels (heart itself or mainly base of the heart. An adrenaline rush which normally enables the enormous power for the flight reaction will
rise the heart frequency and the blood pressure to the double, which will in case of a nicked artery exponantiate the exsanguination
Ben
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in layman's terms..dead..due to precise placement of a sharp object! :thumbsup:
Thank you sambasamba!
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thanks Ben.. Your english is fine.
JDS III
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Thanks Ben! New a doc could explain it! Your English is fine.
J
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He writes better english than I speak :)
Thanks for the technical insight !
Jack
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That was awesome Ben...thanx
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Thank you very much guys. Ben that explanation was great, and your English is much better then most people in North America. ;)
So after all that, I guess the best place to shoot an animal is low just behind the shoulder to get both lungs low enough for a lot of gushing blood, and hopefully hit the heart dropping them in seconds. Nothing new here, but for some reason knowing what is happening on a detailed level seems to give me confidence.
Thanks for all the help.
Allan
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The comments that the blood is coming out of the the nose and mouth isn't the whole story. Yes, some blood can and does come out of those openings at times, many times, but those good spraying blood trails can be from the wound holes just as easily.
Ever trailed an animal and were looking for spoor on the plants on the sides of the trail to see how well and high the blood was flowing from the entry/exit holes? Or following the bright red trail in the snow that on the sides of the animal's footprints? That is because the entry/exit holes can and do allow the blood out, either dripping or spraying.
Example: I shot a large 12 pointer broadside, double lung, just a tad above the midpoint of chest which fully exited. Within 3 steps he was out of sight but I could hear him run straight and then by the sound in the leaves turn a bit to my right, like a J. At that point I heard him, "HUFF, HUFF", and then all was quiet. The only blood on the trail was 30 yard from where he was shot and it appeared to be 5 drops from his nose. No more blood trail from that point on. When found it looked as if someone exploded a frothy red paint ball grenade about 4 feet above the ground. Everything in a 10 food radius was covered with blood. The HUFF, HUFF was his last effort and it blew the blood in his chest out both holes everywhere. The holes were covered in the frothy blood, too.
Many other examples of personal experience come to mind, too. Holes in the right place do make a difference is my point.
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I shot a buck in pristine white snow in MT a few years back. It was hit about midway up through both lungs. It swung around and died within sight, but I still went to check what the trail looked like.
At first I thought there wasn't any blood for the first 50 yards or so until I went back. It was then I noticed a fine red mist one the snow about 3-5 feet from the actual track. It was obvious that every breath was blowing this mist out the wound holes.
There is no way you would have seen it on anything but snow.
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Don't forget on top of the collapsing of lungs, and/ or the major vessels around the heart, the lungs have the highest concentration of blood vessels in the body. This leads to more blood loss per inch of slice than anywhere else in the body. The faster the blood loss, the quicker the brain cells start to shut down due to lack of Oxygen.
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Last season's deer (pic in my profile) ran 75 or so yards (with a really good blood trail to follow), then the trail stopped, I mean absolutely stopped. Turns out, thru my improper hole management :eek: , as he turned UPHILL (~40 yards), he completely stopped leaking, then picked back up again once he decided to go level again. Never seen one do that before (go up that steep a hill after dropping so much blood)
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Great explanation by Ben, we strive for a double hemopneumothorax, that is fill both lung cavities with blood and collapse them. I think the perfect shot for this would be to center punch the lungs just above the heart that way you cut the LARGE main arteries but still have the pump emptying the vascular system. Wish I could shoot that good,lol.
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exactly what I was thinking katman. Good thread here.
Hitting above the heart, though still low on the body and in the major arteries allows the heart to actually go to work bringing humane death even quicker. Take the pump out of the equation and it'll take a wee bit longer with less blood being 'thrown' out.
Low and forward...like it. again, thanks for the read, all.
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I have never seen "big spraying blood trails" from a lung only hit.
The only time I have ever seen "big spray" is on a direct heart shot. In fact, I have seen clouds of red mist upon a heart shot both fill the air immediately and contrail as deer runs off.
Lung shots, though very deadly, are relatively unimpressive from what I have seen.
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"exponantiate the exsanguination..."
We all wish we could say that one three times fast!
Very eloquent,sambasamba. Thanks for the insight!