Trad Gang

Just wondering what everyone thinks are some of the better penetrating broadheads, especially when you hit bone and such.  I am currently most interested in the grizzly and tusker broadheads because I would rather pay $20-30 for 6 than pay $90 for 3 of the ashby's or the silver flames.  So pretty much what are the best penetrating budget broadheads?

What do you intend to hunt? The two you mentioned are both good. I have shot through whitetails with both snuffers and woodsman broadheads. None of them work well if you hit the wrong spot. If you do, the two you mentioned might get the job done...or not.

If you are looking at a great single bevel take a hard look at the Abowyer Brown Bears.  They are $39.99 for three but I just put one through a doubled up license plate today repeatedly with no ill effects and great penetration!  Your arrow diameter and weight will also play a huge role in penetration.  Also, I have done months of research on various single bevel heads while trying to meet a low budget and the Abowyers fit my bill.  PM me if you want to talk more in depth about them.

Well I kind of want to avoid 3 blade broadheads, plus those are a lot more expensive than the 2-blades i have been looking at.  But I have been thinking about the woodsman, just not sure on that 3-blade.

Do you usually get pass-throughs with the woodsman out of your bows?  I just know that Dr. Ashby said the number of blades didn't really make a huge difference on the blood trails because if a 3 or 4 blade didn't leave a exit wound than you were going to get less blood anyway

So far I've had blood trails Ray Charles could have followed. Instead of a slit, I have a gaping hole in the off side...huge splashes of blood. It's like following the white lines on a highway.

Mind you, I am talking whitetails. I have no experience with larger critters, so you will have to wait for some of the elk and moose hunters to weigh in on that.

how do the snuffers and woodsman perform when you hit bone?

Sorry for all the questions, just want to greatly increase my odds of harvesting an animal once i release that arrow.

I have had the Woodsmans stop completely on the shoulder blade of a doe last season that resulted in me not finding her.  Thus my switch to the single bevel.  I also sent you a PM.

Got the pm, thats my biggest worry with those 3 blades, you need to break a bone in different directions to get through, whereas a 2-blade only has to break it in 1 spot and a single bevel will have the spinning motion besides.

Now I just need to figure out if I want to pitch out the money for some abowyers, or go the cheaper route with the grizzlys or tuskers, or maybe some other mid to low priced broadhead

Super Sharp whatever you choose.

Money helps buy sharper, but KME is sellin the single bevel in various heads that aren't requiring a king's ranson--and they'll be equally sharp! Call him. He's a sponsor.

A bad hit with a heavy head usually works out ok,
but a lightweight head does not carry enough momentum to do the job. 3 blades = better blood trials .
ASL

QuoteOriginally posted by Doc Nock:
Super Sharp whatever you choose.

Money helps buy sharper, but KME is sellin the single bevel in various heads that aren't requiring a king's ranson--and they'll be equally sharp! Call him. He's a sponsor.

This is the first I've heard that he makes his own broadhead...any more details?

In reading the Ashby reports he says that three blades does not neccesarily mean more blood on the ground.  The single bevel rotates through the target thus contacting and disrupting the same amount or more vessels than the three blade.  The entry and exit holes with the single bevel are also not just slits they are more like an L shape which facilitates blood on the ground.  Those reports are a great read...

I have read the same IronCreek.  That is why i want to know if everyone is very consistantly getting passthroughs with the 3 blades.  I would think that 2 holes that are slits are better for blood than 1 hole that is a little bigger from a 3-blade that couldn't make it all the way through.

Ron doesn't make his own heads, he sells Tuskers and Grizzlys I believe for $50 per 6 sharpened to your door.  
Ron is one class act guy, highly recommend you talk to him about sharpening sometime.  Another awesome guy on here is Buddy, he knows his sharpening stuff very well as well.

Best?

The largest, heaviest head on the heaviest tuned arrow that's being pushed by the most draw weight the archer can muster.

That's about the skinny on it.

Way too many variables to call one (even one style) the "best".

I'm not trying to be smart.  It's just physics.

Rotate a 2 blade head -1" dia still 1" cut.
3 blade 1,5" cut ? Use what you are confident with
keep them sharp.
ASL

I am going to buy one of Ron's knife sharpeners at the urging of Dan at Abowyer.  He says they get his heads "Scalpel Sharp" and I quote.  Dr. Ashby says to practice for the perfect shot but make your set-up able to handle the worst case scenario.  The worst case scenario in my opinion is the shoulder shot.  A 3-blade head out of my bow will never penetrate the shoulder of a deer thus my choice of the Abowyer.  On the same note no amount of blades will make a difference on a gut shot in my opinion.

This is my writing from a different thread:

Your thread prompted me to conduct my own very "unscientific" test on penetration of different heads today. Note I said heads not arrow weight. I doubled over a vehicle license plate and proceeded to shoot it with my set-up. I figured the aluminum plate would be harder to penetrate than bone on a whitetail seeing as though it is more malleable than "brittle" bone. My set up is a Black Widow PMA 62" recurve pulling 49 lbs at 28". My arrows are Easton Axis N-Fused 500's with a 100 grain brass inserts and 200 grain tip for a total arrow weight of 525 grains and 10.71 grains per pound. My arrows were also bare shaft tuned and shooting bullet holes through paper.

The first head I tried was the Abowyer Brown Bear. I stepped back to 20 yards and shot the arrow three times and averaged the results. The arrow penetrated the plate an into my Block target consistently 4.5". The next head I tried was an Eclipse double bevel 2-blade. This head never fully penetrated the plate and only managed 1/2" of penetration. The third head I tried was the Magnus II double bevel head. This head also failed to penetrate the plate fully and averaged 3/4" of penetration. The fourth and last head I tested was the Woodsman. This head failed to penetrate the plate fully as well and averaged 1.5" of penetration. The one thing with the Abowyers I noticed was the distinct rotating cut in the plate as it should.

Take it for what it is guys and I hope this helps in some way. This testing did tell me one thing for sure...Abowyers will be in my quiver this fall!

Best,
Dan

Let me ask a silly question (possibly).

Can a bow REALLY be tuned to shoot all of those different heads....even if they are the same weight?

Yes...it has taken me three months on and off shooting but I eventually got it figured out.  My dads bow is not as well tuned as mine and he did the same shooting as I did today with much less penetration of all four heads as a result.  Like Ashby says broadhead design is nothing without proper tuning first.

i doubt that bow can be that well tuned, but i do believe his test results to be somewhat valid.  Even if the bow isn't perfectly tuned you should still be able to get a decent idea since in his experiment he was only penetrating 4.5" past the plates

Only reason I asked, guys....is it's always been my impression that when you changed anything....you re-tuned.  I just don't think a bow can be "perfectly tuned" if you're switching things (even if the heads weigh the same).

Just my opinion.  I could be all wrong.

I'll exit....lol.

Doubt away my friend...  :rolleyes:

You shot the woodsman last fall correct?  So I am assuming that you were fairly well tuned for the woodsman to start with.

Reading the info on here, Dr. Ashby's reports, and the forum on light-weight bows has really made me think that going the single bevel 2-blade route is the best way to go.  Really tempted to just get some abowyers now, but kind of scared by what elknut said about them bending at the tip, but he wasn't overly concerned over that as well

A well made bow of any type is not as sensitive to minor changes as some make them out to be.  My dads bow on the other hand is very sensitive to the slightest changes in anything.  It's just my experience I am relating here...I am not trying to preach the gospel here, but between my dad and I we have 59 years combined experience with traditional bows and equipment.  I would like to think we have somethings figured out by now...  :knothead:

I would buy one Abowyer Brown Bear as they are the closest to the 3:1 ratio you are going to get, match the bevel to your fletching helical and shoot them.  I would put money on the fact that you will not be dissapointed.  It also depends on how much game you shoot at in a given season...do you get to shoot a lot?  If so then maybe the more economical heads would be a better choice if money is a concern.  Talk to David Petersen as well he is a wealth of knowledge and experience.  What is your current head weight?  Yes, my bow was tuned well last year and sadly I still lacked penetration.

The Grizzly 160 is actually closer to the 3-1 ratio than the Brown Bear. And since you are on a budget you can get a dozen Grizzly heads for the price of 3 of the others.

the tuskers are right on at the 3-1 ratio as well.  I will be using them on deer, but will probably only shoot 1-3 deer this fall.  I also plan to use them on turkeys this fall and a hog hunt in the next year or so.  

The thing is I trust that I will probably like the abowyers better because there is no spot-welding, but will i really lose much penetration due to the spot-welding on the tuskers in comparison to the abowyers?

I think the worst thing about the tuskers is that they are not presharpened, and like i said i have been talking to some guys about how to sharpen and they have been helpful on how to establish that bevel.  I wish there was more info on this head, but i think i will ask Ron at KME his opionon on these heads and get his thoughts.  Thanks everyone, I am sure any of these heads will be more than enough to do the job, but I like to plan for the worst case scenario so that I can have the best result when that occurs.

13000 folks, 13000 opinions

QuoteOriginally posted by chris K.:
13000 folks, 13000 opinions

:goldtooth:  

13000 folks could equal 26000 or more opinions if they were like me: 'cause often I have more than one opinion running simultaneously.

Best 2 blade for the money is the ace standard 160. Great steel. easy to sharpen, fly like field points, look really tradittionl.... It is a double bevel, but it will shoot through any whitetail with your setup.  As for three blades, I have shot file sharpened snuffers through the scapula many, many times on whitetails....using 650-750 grain arrows moving along at 180 fps.  The WW may have bent the tip, which does happen with that head, and when it does a rib will stop it cold (Happened to me last fall) They work fine if you snip the tip and sharpen at a blunt angle.

Mike

Tusker broadheads are quality heads. They are cheaper because they require more from you to get ready to hunt.

The Abowyer heads are top quality heads, and require only a fine touch to get ready to hunt.

If you have the skill to get a Tusker Concorde ready to hunt, and the time to do it, you won`t come out any less expensive than this.

Some of your choice is going to depend on your sharpening skills.

Personally, I use two edge heads. I have never had an issue with lack of blood on the ground.
I just cannot get a three blade as sharp as I can two.

To answer the original question without any other input about multi-blade heads or any other opinions, The Brown Bear would be an awesome choice. The Grizzly is the head I shot more than any other head out there. They are awesome heads as long as you are capable of getting them scalpal sharp. About 90% of the guys I see shooting Grizzly have them far from sharp. I MEAN REALLY SHARP. This is the number 1 factor you should consider when choosing a broadhead. If you can't shave your face when done sharpening then you haven't achieved a hunting edge. The sharpness of the head is also a major factor in blood trails. You never see anyone ask how sharp a broadhead was when comparing blood trails.

The Tusker broadheads aren't even a good comparison when in a sentence with Grizzly and Aboyer. They are much softer steel. The Tusker is an alright head that will kill all game when placed correctly. The problem with softer steel is that you simply cannot get the same level of sparpness. It's like sharpening a Buck knife and sharpening a 99 cent knife from the bowl on the counter of the hardware store. The hardware knife will get sharp but nothing like you can get with the Buck knife.

Blood trails should have a measurement criteria that included some measure of sharpness! If you cut yourself with a three blade butter knife and then cut yourself with a scalpal which will bleed better and bleed more. Which is easier to stop the bleeding. I guess we need to study blood trails a little more too! CK

You guys sound if your hunting cape buffalo.If you are so worried about pentration on WHITETAILS,then hunt them w/ a bow that will give the pentration you want or try to be more efficent w/ the set-up you are shooting now.
There is no magic broadhead that will kill more dead than another but NO ONE here is going to convience me that one needs a 2 blade head over a 3 blade for whitetails.I've killed quiet a few deer w/ 2,4.and 3 blades and have lost deer w/ them.If you hit them to far in front,you wish you had a 2 blade.If you hit them to far back,you wish you had a 3 blade but when you put a sharp 160gr SNUFFER thru the ribcage,well you have to do it the see it.

Oh yea, The other things to consider is how sharp the broadhead is when it comes out the "exit wound". Softer steels also roll edges when contacting bone, not to mention the fact that them immediately dull once contacting flesh and bone.

Bonebusters, brown bears, and Grizzlies are all very hard steel that won't dull easily.

BTW, I've killed three hogs with the Ashby head and it still shaves. Can't say that for many broadheads.

A hunter I had in camp said something the other day that made lots of sence. He said " I paid $900 for this bow, $150 for arrows, quiver, glove, camo, etc..... I'm not gonna skimp on price when it comes to ammo(broadheads). Made sence to me that we as Archers seem to skimp on the one thing that is the whole key to killing. Something to think about! CK

over, You are absolutely correct in your statement. I suppose the question is "what will work in every situation?

I've killed two hogs with shots through the hips. I can assure you that I had no intention to hit them there but luckily I was shooting single bevel heads that split the bones into pieces and bled profusely. Would a three blade head do that? I couldn't tell you because it would take thousands of shots to even come close to figuring out all the variables that go into each shot. Most guys simply kill two of three dozen "deer" and make absolute statments like " this head is best because I killed three dozen deer with it. Never does anything get measured, documented, etc. It's just simple statments that no one can ever go back and study to see why something worked. That's the neat thing about studies that actually document so that you can go back after thousands of shots(on flesh and bone) and calculate mathmatically why and how things worked. We as Achrers tend to hit areas that we don't intend to hit. This is what I design an arrow for. ANY broadhead will kill dead when you place it where it was intended to go. So, I guess the next thing we need to discuss is what is the acceptable loss on wounded game? Deer simply aren't even close to a good test animal. I do think deer could be killed with blunts. They are simply the softest big game animal North America has to offer. CK

Littlefeather,

I agree 100% on everything you have said.  ANY head will kill a deer when placed properly, its that dreaded shoulder shot that scares me, even more so than the paunch hit.  My father has harvested many more animals than I and we figured his wound loss ratio on shoulder hits at 75% and in the ballpark of 25% on paunch hits.  Thats a huge disparity.  I have designed my setup to help bring that shoulder loss percentage down as best I can.  Don't scrimp on the heads they are what our whole setup is designed to deliver...in my opinion its THE most important piece of gear one has.

ICA, I have to ask how many he's hit in the shoulder as compared to how many he's hit to far back(paunch).....

Curt,
      I've been lucky enough to have killed a few more deer than 2 or 3 dozen in my life. At the moment I don't recall ever hitting one in the shoulder bone that stopped the arrow. Curious, huh ??

In days of old everyone shy'd away from the shoulder. We've got to remember that the performance difference in the old wood bows and wood arrows wasn't near what todays glass bows, carbon arrows, FOC, and incredible broadheads.

As an outfitter I get to see all equipment performance on real flesh. I saw so many hogs lost over the years due to shooting behind the shoulder that I started telling guys to shoot to break the shoulder bone. Remember that a hogs heart lies behind the bone. Since I started shooting the shoulder bone I have had exactly zero shots fail to break the shoulder bone. I've only seen one clients arrow stopped by bone in the last 4 years. I blame a light arrow and a poorly tuned, wobbling arrow, for that failure. Every shoulder bone hit I've ever made on a hog(heavier bone than deer) has resulted in very short blood trails. I quit worrying about hitting bone several years ago. I've also killed two deer with intentional bone breaking shoulder shots shooting 160 grain, 3 blade snuffers  :scared:  . I shoot 48# bows and foc carbon arrows on all these shots. I also shoot from 580 to 630 gpp. I've only had bone stop broadheads on a couple of occasions. One while testing a new three blade last year. This may have had more to do with a bad release/wobbly flight too(I have a sloppy release). There is just way too many variables on most occasions to draw conclusions without thousands and thousands of shots measured and documanted. Without the documantation there is simply no way to accuarately determine any true and accurate result.  

Back to the point, I almost never have bone stop an arrow on any of the North American game I shoot. Capitalize on the energy, momentum, rotation that is already present and you'll never have a bone problem. CK

Curt, I see your point. Most guys miss too far back instead of too far forward. I believe this is because of guys teaching for years and years to NOT hit bone because it will stop an arrow. I believe this has unconsciously led to guys to fear the shoulder. Fear of the shoulder has guys gut shooting animals. If a guys equipment had no problem with bone then therotically he wouldn't be gut shooting for fear of bone. Think about it, why is too far back such an issue that it runs rampant to a fault among todays archers? If a guy is gonna miss he misses too far back more often than too far forward. I think we all need to work on the mental aspect of things instead of equipment. Quit fearing bone! If you fear it, shoot something that goes through it.

If I'm gonna gut shoot game I'd certainly shoot the biggest 6-10 blade broadhead I could get. The point is to hit heart/lungs. If you fear bone then it's hard to get yourself to shoot forward. I try and break the shoulder bone every time. No more worries because I always seem to make it through. Of course I shoot both 3 blade snuffers for some game and two blade bone breakers for others. When bone isn't an issue I go for big holes. When when bone is an issue I leave big holes at home. CK

Well said LF !!  

I too have killed a batch of pigs and my experiences mimic yours. Since I've started trying to break the shoulder, blood trails have been profuse and short!

Have you had any arrows stopped while contacting bone that didn't kill the animal?

:coffee:

No, I haven't -- that I recall... But I only hunt deer and pigs. Not an elk, moose, or other heavy game hunter, unfortunately!

Curt...He hit four in the shoulder and lost 3 of those...thats how I got the 75% loss of those hit in the shoulder.  He has taken around 40 whitetails and hit 10 in the paunch and lost thus the 25%.    

Pat...think the whitetails are a little more slightly built down there than up here?

I shot and hit a doe square in the shoulder last fall with a well tuned setup pushing Woodsmans with a 575 grain arrow and I lost that deer due to lack of penetration...I waited a while for the follow up and had tracking snow to boot.  I am curious as to how everyone is getting "great" penetration through shoulders with multiple bladed heads?  What is the poundage of your guys setups?  I am shooting around 50 lbs...could this be my issue with lack of penetration using multiple bladed heads on heavy bone hits?  I am assuming the lower poundage was a factor thus my switch to the single bevel heads in hopes it will help if I hit the shoulder again.

QuoteOriginally posted by Littlefeather:
Capitalize on the energy, momentum, rotation that is already present and you'll never have a bone problem. CK

Right on!  :thumbsup:   Thats what I am striving for...I hope all this is helping the thread starter not confusing him more...lol.

Curt...one more thing that I did not think of is the fact that he was shooting either wood arrows or aluminum in the shoulder hits with less than desirable broadhead design for those type of hits i.e. Thunderheads on the aluminum and Zwickey Deltas on the wood...don't tell Terry about the Deltas though... :eek:  

The bow poundage was in the mid-sixties as a side note.

Thanks Curtis and the rest of you guys...good stuff here.   :thumbsup:

"littlefeather" said this: "in days of old everyone shy'd away from the shoulder. We've got to remember that the performance difference in the old wood bows and wood arrows wasn't near what todays glass bows, carbon arrows, FOC, and incredible broadheads."

What are you classifying as old....son 8^).  I've had 1956 bows that will shoot with todays models. I have a 1966 that will shoot with any 2009 bow.  Todays bows have only one thing over the old models for performance.....fastflight strings.  

We shouldn't be shooting at shoulders, but I fear the use of some magic, single-bevel, will make shoulder aimers come out of the closet.  Single-bevels, no matter how much they cost, will not be a solution for bad shooting, whether it is accidental or on purpose.  A bad hit is a bad hit, and usually results in a bad outcome.  I wouldn't spend money on a broadhead that "may" help on a bad hit.

I'm quite sure the  single-bevel heads are great heads; however, they are not the only heads, and they are not the only heads that will plow through a shoulder and kill deer.  It would be best to use what you think will do the best job for your, and  let everyone else do the same.  Good accurate shooting, and knowing when to release an arrow, is a better bet than what the head is made of or how it's designed.

Well said Mr. Stout!  That's why i practice so much.

ICA, I'm sure that you're correct in saying that the deer I hunt are more slightly built, probably 2 to 1 !!!!!  However, some of the pigs get pretty large, well over 200 on occassion. You're comment about multiblade heads jogged my memory too.. I killed a fair number of pigs last season while I was deer hunting.. The only one I lost was hit in the shoulder with a big snuffer, I got no penetration. The rest were hit with either 2 bladed Zwickeys or 2 bladed Eclipses, mostly used the Eclipse and they performed very well.  
       George, the above cited incident of the lost pig supports your idea as well but the others gave me no problem. I'm positive than in most cases the actual shoulder bone was not hit. I try to go straight up the front leg, on broadside shots, not quite 1/2 way up the body, and place the arrow there. Niney percent of my shots have been very close, 15 yards and under, which permits pretty accurate arrow placement. The one thing I'm sure of is, I do NOT like to hit game too far back.. All to often paunch hits lead to undesirable results..

What I said and you also quoted me as saying was "days of old" and "wood bows".

I've also got older glass bows just like yourself. I most certainly don't have any that perform as well as my modern bows(carbon limbs, foam cores, etc). I stand corrected anyway. I do respect the view of those who've been around archery far longer than I've been alive. Thanks for your input. CK

Curtis, I agree with your first statement. While I'm not as "seasoned" as George I have been around for a spell, just as you have. The bows that I shot 35-40 years ago tended to be heavier to get the performance that I was comfortable with. Todays materials along with FF strings have allowed me to drop poundage and retain wonderful performance.  I also agree that the experience of our older shooters is invaluble and appreciate their input always.  Hell, I'm one of 'em !!

Curtis, have you shot Tuskers recently?  The hardness has been increased to over 50 rockwell, and they take and hold an incredible edge in my experience with them.

QuoteOriginally posted by Littlefeather:
Have you had any arrows stopped while contacting bone that didn't kill the animal?

Once. On a whitetail, of all animals. And I attribute it to too light of an arrow (unweighted MFX 500 Classic) and too much of an needle tip on my broadhead. I heard the crack of bone, got no bloodtrail and found my arrow 200 yards away with very little blood on it, and the broadhead tip rolled back halfway back to the ferrule.  

I didn't let this situation scare me away from "breaking the shoulder".  Instead, I weighted up my Beman MFX 500s to 570 grains (75gr adapter with a almost chisel tiped 160gr Ribtek) while shooting it out of a 48# recurve.

Gotta use the right tool for the job, I say.  I hunt hogs mostly, and having that in mind I wanted a heavy arrow that I could deliver accurate placement with.  So far, the hogs agree that I've achieved my goal.

No Tim, I have not shot Tuskers in about 6 years. They weren't bad heads then but I just couldn't get a face shaving edge that stayed. They seem to be generally shot in Oz where guys don't try and retrieve their broadheads from hogs. Did they bevel the edges or do you still have to break the edge? CK

With the utmost respect to everyone who has posted here, I have enjoyed the experience and knowledge shared. Also the respect showed to one and alls opinions. I have learned some things here and can now say that I can make an educated decision on my next broad head to use. Especially since I am currently trying to decide what to put on some shafts I am having made up.

Just want to say thank you gentleman, and hope others will share there insight as favorably.

Curtis, they've made a bunch of changes since then and they've all been good ones.

The double bevels still need quite a bit of work (John is working on that) but they have a start anyway.  The grind on the new single bevels has been greatly improved.  The newest heads now have a very durable protective coating, and as I mentioned earlier the rockwell hardness has been boosted to over 50.  Good stuff all.   :thumbsup:

We bend more Tusker 160s in pigs than STOS 160s (haven't bent one yet, despite sending one through a shoulder blade and embedding it in the offside rib). We've all used Tuskers, and they've done the trick, but the triple thickness of the STOS head makes it our "go to" (speaking for my mate Tony and I - other lads here prefer Zwickey or Magnus).

As for aiming at the shoulder versus behind the leg, we sometimes joke that we wish our pigs were whitetail, which, from the movies, seem to be all lung from tip of nose to tip of tail (with our exaggerated Aussie sense of humour - well, it's exaggerated sometimes; often it's under-exaggerated) - of course, whitetail don't have that much lung, but we are jealous that you can hit the animal so far back and still double lung it, whereas with our pigs, we have to aim straight up that leg line for best results (on the side-on view). When we hit them there, there is never need for a second arrow.

That's my two-bob worth. Here's a photo of the shot described above (STOS 160, double bevel of course):

(http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l164/b_kleinig/DSC00116.jpg)
He was close, and slightly quartering on. I wouldn't try this shot with lighter gear (80+# of Silvertip and 775 grains of Douglas fir and STOS).

(http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l164/b_kleinig/DSC00120.jpg)
Here's what we found as we dug-in. We really had to yank hard to get it out of the rib on the other side. The broadhead was perfect, and the busted arrow will look good mounted on a shield with the teeth.

By the way, and this is a whole other debate, but as there was only an entry wound, you can see how bad the blood trail was (non-existent).

Sometimes lack of penetration has more to do w/ the reaction of the animal at the shot,than bow and arro set-up.
An alert animal will more likely to be making a MAJOR evasive move at release and reduce pentration greatly on impact.

Good stuff ya'll, keep it up.  I wonder how many folks that THINK they are hitting deer in the shoulder blade are actually hitting the "rib extensions" above the backbone?  If a deer "squats on the shot" and the hunter is shooting from a treestand, this can easily "look like" you hit'em in the shoulder but if fact you are not.  There are some real good websites that shows deer anatomy.  See what you think.

I think it's admirable that folks are actively seeking more lethal arrow combinations in the quest for increased confidence. Some people choose bigger broadheads out of fear of hitting an animal too far back, while others go the opposite route to reduce anxiety about strikes to heavy bone. Both paths have firm foundations in logic.

But there is a tremendous difference between selecting arrows to hedge against accidentally hitting heavy bone or vital organs behind the diaphragm, and making equipment decisions with the intention of purposely shooting deer in those locations. I wear a safety harness in the hope it will protect me if I fall, not because I plan on purposely jumping out of my treestand.

With respect to the shooting at the heavy frontal bone structure of a deer—or any member of the deer family for that matter; be it whitetail, blacktail, mule deer, elk or moose—it baffles me as to why anyone would do such a thing. For the most part, unless you're intentionally selecting very poor shot angles, the upper leg bone and shoulder blade cover only the frontal outer periphery of the major vital organs. If my intention is to shoot my arrow through the mouth of a five-gallon bucket, I'm not going to aim for the rim. I'll pick a spot in the center that affords me the largest margin of error. That spot on a broadside or somewhat quartering away deer is nowhere near heavy bone.

Quote...I fear the use of some magic, single-bevel, will make shoulder aimers come out of the closet.

George, your fear is well founded. We went through this same thing a year ago, with more than a few folks posting that they planned to harvest deer in the upcoming season by intentionally shooting them through the shoulders. I was curious to see if there'd be a flurry of happy success stories that fall and winter as a result of such attempts.

If anyone posted positive results please accept my apologies, because I must have missed them. But what I did notice was that this talk of breaking down deer through the shoulder bones—as if we're hunting with 7mm's—mysteriously all but disappeared during and immediately following last year's hunting season. That pretty much told me all I needed to know.

If someone's still determined to send arrows into the heavy front skeletal structure of deer, they certainly don't need my consent. But recreational bowhunters have been humanely killing deer by shooting them with normal arrows and broadheads behind the front shoulders and through both lungs for well over a hundred years. Since I don't think the good Lord is putting deer together any differently now than he did back then, I figure I'll stick to that plan.   ;)

QuoteOriginally posted by Littlefeather:
Most guys miss too far back instead of too far forward. I believe this is because of guys teaching for years and years to NOT hit bone because it will stop an arrow. I believe this has unconsciously led to guys to fear the shoulder. Fear of the shoulder has guys gut shooting animals. If a guys equipment had no problem with bone then therotically he wouldn't be gut shooting for fear of bone. Think about it, why is too far back such an issue that it runs rampant to a fault among todays archers? If a guy is gonna miss he misses too far back more often than too far forward. I think we all need to work on the mental aspect of things instead of equipment. Quit fearing bone! If you fear it, shoot something that goes through it.

If I'm gonna gut shoot game I'd certainly shoot the biggest 6-10 blade broadhead I could get. The point is to hit heart/lungs. If you fear bone then it's hard to get yourself to shoot forward.

Very good point CK. Kinda embarrased to say I never thought of it like that... Very good point indeed. I hunted hogs for the first time this year and found that I had more than a little trouble forcing myself to aim for the shoulder when preparing/practicing for the hunt because I've only hunted deer for the last 35 years. I guess I have been "taught" to excessively fear those shoulders myself. I won't intentionally aim for the shoulders but, I think I will crowd that shoulder a little more in the future than I used to.

Ron

Any hair popping two blade, put in the right spot will come out the other side.

Jason - thank you for an excellent post.
Very hard to dismiss the "bucket " anology.

Steve

I sure don't get to shoot at, let alone "kill" a lot of deer or critters like many on this site.

But after due diligence, I chose to do the Primos Team thing..aim for the heart, low tight behind the front leg at that crease..

If they don't "drop" it's a killing heart shot..if they do, it's a 12 ring area shot.

that gives me confidence.

Jason made a great point about tree stand harness...wearing one for that "chance of error".

Exactly why I'm going with the sharpest, single bevel I can find and afford (not necessarily both)because I like the science behind their design.

Margin of error. But again, Stoney's point about hair poppin sharp... wins every time.

Been lotsa threads on what is "really" sharp...not just sharp goin in, but an edge that maintains it's sharpness all the way through the deer, even if it busts a rib or whatever...

Sharp broadheads of many designs kills.

QuoteJust wondering what everyone thinks are some of the better penetrating broadheads, especially when you hit bone and such

I would think physics dictates the smaller the broadhead, the "better" the penetration meaning how far the arrow/head will travel before stopping.

That's not exactly all that has to be put into choosing your arrow/head combo though, is it?

Last year I killed a nice buck, and my arrow passed through and was laying on the ground where he'd been standing. I was using a 3 blade Thunderhead. Had I been using 2 blade Silver Flames maybe I'd have buried the arrow 5" into the dirt instead?

On the flip side, maybe that 2 blade wouldn't have cut as much as that 2 blade did on the way through, and I'd have had a long blood trail?


After all the trials and attempts and different broadheads and arrows and weights etc, I'm an absolute firm believer in using a 700+ grain combination, and a 3 blade broadhead. For me, thats a weighted carbon and Thunderhead 160's


I'd LOVE to see Thunderhead make a new solid steel 3 blade in the 175 gr range that has single bevel replaceable blades. THAT would be the bomb!

5 pages    :biglaugh:    :biglaugh:    

This argument is probably carved in a cave wall someplace and after seeing it once or twice ,more actually it almost seems ammusing...almost

Pick the head that YOU have the most confidence in and thats both accuracy and being able to get it sharp.If "YOU" beleive in your setup it'll go a long ways towards whats best for "you"

Big thanks for everyone's input. Just as there's no one way to skin a cat, opinions differ. Smart folks learn from other's mistakes. Mistakes generate strong opinions. In our hearts, we all mean well especially teaching those less experienced about equipment and technique. Much obliged! The most important priority; however, is total respect for the animal. That means commitment to insure a good clean quick kill & recovery. This includes all the variables; woods skills, shot selection, BH, bow, recovery expertise, & practice techniques & shooting confidence. Is any one point less important?

A world of practical information in Ben's setup specs & hog pic. *Can't follow a nonexistent blood trail. The massive KE makes short work of the hog even through bone. Great to see damage capabilities at this weight. See why penetration is crucial just as Dr. Ashby states.

Simply great info.  What I have gathered the most from this thread is that there are pluses and minuses to every broadhead out there.  If I know that I usually stay away from the shoulder i might want a 3-blade or a larger 2-blade to make up for some potential gut shots.  On the other-hand I may be the type that crowds the shoulder, so a good sharp 2-blade single bevel would be better suited for me.  Than I can add in cost of broadheads vs. hardness, difficulty to sharpen, and ability to hold an edge and a guys head could spin with all the possibilities.

Well when I aim at a deer I aim at a crease on the deer, the crease that is straight up from the leg and where the muscle group curves in.  This puts me just at the top of the heart.  I hunt Minnesota deer, which are far from small (shot a 200lb one first time with a wheel bow followed by a "small" 170lb buck.  This is pretty much a blessing when it comes to accuracy because most deer I have shot with various weapons have 15-16" from the top of the back to the belly, creating a much larger vital area in comparison to smaller deer found in some of the southern states.

But back to where I was going with my aiming spot.  Assuming the deer doesn't jump the string, my arrow is located closer to the shoulder in comparison to the gut based on my personal aiming location.  Because of this I believe my best option is a nice 2-blade because I have an increased liklihood of shooting that deer in the shoulder in comparison to shooting it in the gut.  No I will not be aiming for the shoulder, but instead will be aiming at the top of the heart.  If the arrow connects exactly where I am aiming I may not even need to track the deer (Every deer i have shot in the heart have made it less than 20 yards)

Not sure if all of my logic is just, but i think i will be trying out some grizzlys and some tuskers, figure out if i like them, if i don't this website has classifieds and i can always sell them and maybe give some abowyers a try or even some woodsman if i can get comfortable enough to shoot 3-blades.

Also I may be taking my longbow on an elk hunting trip this fall.  This creates a much larger demand for using a 2-blade.  I will be shooting a 48# @28" black swan hybrid bow with about 510 grain arrows.  This isn't an optimal elk hunting rig by most, but I believe the extra penetration capabilities of a 2-blade single bevel head would be much more important with elk in comparison to the much smaller counterpart of whitetail deer

There have been a lot of excellent hunters who have checked in on this thread, but in hopes of getting the thread to 6 pages  :saywhat:  , I thought I'd throw in my 2 cents' worth...

Over the past couple years, I came across several diagrams that got me thinking about my aiming spot on deer.  Here's an example:  http://www.rubsnscrapes.com/Articles/deer_shot_placement_anatomy.php

Except for quartering away situations, I decided I had been aiming too far back to provide any safety margin.  I DON'T intentionally try to hit the shoulder bone, but now shoot straight up from the back of the foreleg and about 1/4 of the way up the body.  My intended target is the set of arteries just above the heart, but if I miss a little in any direction, there is nothing but good stuff to hit!

My scarred brain won't recall the name I'm trying to get, but 15 years ago, I talked to the guy - was it Abel?- who took over manufacturing (or at least distributing) Grizzlies from Harry Elburg.  I don't shoot Griz's but something he said struck me that day, and made even more sense after I discovered the above diagrams.

He said, "People shy away from shooting at the shoulder of a deer, but that's exactly where they SHOULD be shooting!"  I doubt he meant we should intentionally try to split bone, although he was talking about the penetration of the Grizzly head.

What it all means to me now is that I shoot for the shoulder... the MEAT of the shoulder... instead of for the "crease" on a broadside shot.  Last season, four deer found that approach to be pretty effective!!

Thanks for a good discussion,

Daryl

QuoteOriginally posted by goblism:
... a guys head could spin with all the possibilities.

Yup, that about sums it up.

Ron

Best for me has been the Magnus 2 blade stinger .

Mike

Great post Jason, I too aim for the middle of the mouth of the bucket...for the obvious reasons.

That's where the vital are.  :readit:  

   (http://skinnymoose.com/tailsandtrails/wp-content/uploads/2007/06/deer-anatomy.jpg)

     (http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e322/rayhammond123/feralhog1.jpg)

Right on guys..now we are getting somewhere.  I had not thought that much about shot placement until I saw the picture that was posted by Daryl and Terry.  I used to aim tight behind the crease of the shoulder and now am thinking that my be a touch to far back.  I have killed a dozen deer or so shooting tight to the crease but would like to have a little larger margin for error.  Thank you guys for posting the anatomy pictures they have helped me visualize something I did not give much thought to beyond hunters safety class all those years ago.  Keep it going great thread guys and maybe my post will take it to 6 pages...    :D

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v77/Guru39/anatomy%20pix/heartlunghog.jpg)


(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v77/Guru39/anatomy%20pix/cavityhog.jpg)

Better pix to see how hog vitals really lie within the body of a hog.....to me, that man made diagram is a little off...

Spine comes thru the shoulder area lower which puts the heart and lungs lower also....the cut away of the real hog shows that...

Some folks think the shoulder BONE is much more in the way....but its mostly muscle that they are seeing live and meat off the leg bone.  No problem getting through the meat with most SHARP broadheads with hunting weight bows n arrows.  Deer aren't armor plated in the least bit, though big heavy shielded boar hogs need consideration on head choice depending on the weight of the bows n arrows.

Arrows aren't bullets, and never will be.  I've said it before, there is no guarantee of a shoulder bone/blade pass through, but you can pass through the lungs all day for free.

More shots are 'farther back' rather than 'too far forward' from all the stats I've seen.  No matter the reason, they just are....so I aim accordingly....and choose my broadhead accordingly.


   (http://www.tradgang.com/upload/terry/deer-anatomytg.jpg)

    (http://www.tradgang.com/upload/terry/feralhog1tg.JPG)

For what it's worth, here is my $0.02,
The best penetrating broadhead is on the end of the arrow that get's the best arrow flight.
Regards, Bert.

Great pics Curt...I would agree with your little off statement.  Do you know if any pics exist like the pig ones you posted but of a mature deer?

ICA, I don't know of any such pix...but this animated digram is very accurate...

Just give it a few seconds to run through.....

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v77/Guru39/anatomy%20pix/anatomyanimation.gif)

QuoteOriginally posted by Bert Frelink:
For what it's worth, here is my $0.02,
The best penetrating broadhead is on the end of the arrow that gets the best arrow flight.
Regards, Bert.

Yes Sir!....and if folks could get that out of their equipment....and work more on learning to shoot  ACCURATELY and WHERE than worrying about a magic head, arrow, or bow they would be much farther down the road.  Heads are like tools, some work better for different applications.  One that 'penetrates the most' aint always the most lethal on a given shot placement. Oh, and the heart of a deer or a hog is NOT behind the shouldler bone/blade.

If your equipment is tuned, your bhead sharp, and you can shoot.....that's all the magic you really need.  I for one would like to see more folks worried about becoming more accurate than chasing bandwagons.

Tarz,

You make the most valid of points in your most recent post above. Thank you for that perspective.

Only thing I'd add as possible encouragement is that all this chatter about single bevel, EFOC, smaller feathers for quieter arrows, etc. is that, we're finally realizing, slowly for some, that stick bows have a lot of potential for tuning.

All the older folks I knew who've been in the "biz" of trad archery just kinda assume and promote that "it is what it is" and refuse to even consider there might be ways to get more out of their equipment.

What I find interesting, and motivating, is that the more I learn about tuning, arrow flight, paradox, etc, etc, the MORE I have realized they are all integrated into how well I shoot a particular bow and set up....

...and that, Tarz, helps me want to "be the best I can be" and has translated into my becoming a much better shot, more accurate and consistent shot, because I'm chasin that "bandwagon" to learn all I can about how my bow-arrow-BH combo works.  

Some of that learning has helped me elevate my shooting because I was just "accepting" mediocre performance as "what it is".

Make any sense? Kinda early for an ole fart!  :)

QuoteI for one would like to see more folks worried about becoming more accurate than chasing bandwagons.
 

:thumbsup:  

Steve

Can't argue with ignorance I guess...

I have shot 2 deer in the shoulder in my life one with a 62 pound compound and I did not recover that deer and the second was opening day last season with my 45 pound longbow and I got same as no penetration and did not find that deer either.  I just asked a buddy and he has shot one in the shoulder in his life with a 60 pound compound and did not recover it either.  So I think you should fear the shoulder.

Those are some great anatomy diagrams.We do have to keep in mind that they are of a standing deer and the observer is on a level with the vitals.

When a deer has his head down,feeding or drinking,the elbow is often up higher and the upper leg bone can be horizontal.This puts the upper leg bone right across the center of the lungs and the elbow is almost at the rear of the lungs.

When a deer is walking or standing with that front leg to the rear,the scapula rotates into a vertical position.The wide,upper portion of it stays close to where it is in the standing position and the head of the scapula rotates 4-6 inches to the rear.This changes the dynamics quite a bit.

Now,when the front leg is stretched way forward,the scapula can go close to horizontal and the rear corner of it would be lower,covering more of the upper lung,especially if you are viewing from a steep,elevated position.

My only point is,that there is a wide range of positions for the elbow,humerus,shoulder joint and scapula and the way they cover or don't cover the heart lung area.

When I am getting ready to make a shot,I try to visualize those bones and their exact position.This is not too hard to do and the diagrams help a lot in that regard.

It is easy to see the elbow and shoulder joint and if you draw a line from one to the other,that will tell you the approximate position of the humerus.

It isn't too hard to visualize the scapula and it's position even though it is covered with muscle and hide.The shape is there and on short haired deer,you may even see a crease which is the spine of the scapula.

I wonder if anyone has done an animation of these parts in motion and or,from different angles?

The soft spots are pretty easy to shoot through with any sharp broadhead.When it comes to deer and hogs all the hard spots are not in places you need to be shooting anyway.Sorry but I will never understand setting up equipment for screw-ups.Just learn to shoot,when to shoot and where to shoot on the animal you are hunting and stick to the program.   :confused:    Just because you have some super-dooper setup does not mean a  low percentage shot is not still going to be low percentage. My 2cents worth.    :)

BTW. The reason bad shots are usually too far back instead of forward is because 99% of the time when the animal moves at the shot it is the way he is pointing.  :D

James    :notworthy:

I'm new to Archery but wanted to chime in my from my perspective.  I'm new and really enjoying myself and I love shooting, but there is only so much time I should spending shooting (I've been told 30 minutes a day is plenty and more can encourage bad habits to develop).   I also spend time reading about setups, tuning, and form, but there is only so much time I can devote to that stuff.  So what do I do with the rest of my time?  I read things like the Ashby reports (who clearly states that proper arrow flight is #1) in order to maximize my setup.  I'm really enjoying reading about all the aspects of archery and don't think there's anything wrong with trying to setup things up just in case things go wrong, especially since I'm new and will likely have more bad shots than many of you since i've never hunted with a bow before.

The only reason I'm writing this is because sometimes reading posts on here it seems like people are trying to disuade people like me from even trying this kind of stuff.  Believe me, I am working hard to improve my arrow flight and accuracy, but i'm going to hedge my bets as best as possible. Just my .02 cents.  Love this site.

Every one on here just wants to help.  Some have probably seen bad blood trails with 2 blades for whatever reason and some have probably not got the penetration they expected a few times.  It is very disheartening to loose an animal so people form strong opinions about their equiptment.  These are just opinions.  It seems like when you think well this is the way somebody comes along and says not so according to there tests.  Read it, test it, and go with what works for you.  Good luck

QuoteOriginally posted by bduran:
but i'm going to hedge my bets as best as possible. .

As do I....for the most percentage of the time the arrow will be off....which is rearward.  And most of the time it is because the animal takes a step at release or in flight.  The farther back the less chance of hitting heavy bone....and better chance of complete pass throughs.

Therefore, with the odds strongly in favor of a reward hit if not perfect...I wan't to run as much hardware through it as possible.  I want to lacerate the liver/diaphram with a substantial head, not nick it with a narrow one.  Since its easier to pass through in that area...I want a wide slice or hole from a wide head or multiblade head.

QuoteOriginally posted by Terry Green:
Therefore, with the odds strongly in favor of a reaward hit if not perfect...I wan't to run as much hardware through it as possible.

:thumbsup:    :thumbsup:

QuoteOriginally posted by Terry Green:

As do I....for the most percentage of the time the arrow will be off....which is rearward.  And most of the time it is because the animal takes a step at release or in flight.  The farther back the less chance of hitting heavy bone....and better chance of complete pass throughs.

Therefore, with the odds strongly in favor of a reward hit if not perfect...I wan't to run as much hardware through it as possible.  I want to lacerate the liver/diaphram with a substantial head, not nick it with a narrow one.  Since its easier to pass through in that area...I want a wide slice or hole from a wide head or multiblade head. [/QB][/QUOTE]

Me too!    :thumbsup:

Terry,

Great post, thanks!  :)

"The only reason I'm writing this is because sometimes reading posts on here it seems like people are trying to disuade people like me from even trying this kind of stuff."

Not sure anybody is actually trying to disuade anybody,some just find the latest trend of single bevel 2 blade heads being all that to be a bit over the top for most.Nothing against them or the work the doc has done at all just that for most of us most of the time it's a matter of personal preferance.

Quite frankly the aiming methods we sometimes use or lack there of is more of a problem than the BH's we shoot but thats a whole nother discission all together LOL Lets not go there

to answer the ?? asked in the beginning not that it really matters I'd hafta agree with the Doc since he's done the most testing but for me I don't worry about which head so much as how sharp and where it goes...shoulder knuckles with most of our setups single bevel included will have poor and most likely insuficient (IMO) penatration.I've seen it stop an 80# compound on a whitetail deer and I,m betting most don't have that much KE or momentum from our sticks

Guess I need to make my statements clear.  If I were to hunt big game....like Doc tested, I'd use a different head that what I choose for whitetails and hogs.  Not sure how many whitetails Doc tested on the hoof live, but I've tested my fair share and I gotta dance with the one that brung me.

I think some folks don't give their equipment the credit that it deserves....and the lethality of it.  Any decent hunting weight bow and arrow will blow slap through a whitetail with a SHARP multiblade head.  

I'm not trying to be a smart butt...but if we are that worried about getting through the chest of a whitetail with regular hunting equipment, maybe we should be using guns instead.

Are we really that borderline????  Nope.  I sure don't think so.  Seen way to many arrows sailing 20-30 yards after passing through, and 3 and 4 inches in the dirt.  It took the earth to stop most of my multiblade kill shots.     ;)

On the other hand, when you hunt where I do most of my hunting, it's not possible to know what the next critter is going to be- a 90 lb whitetail or a 450 lb hog.

Having one broadhead in your quiver for this and another for something else just doesn't seem practical to me. Successful bowhunting is the elimination of mistakes. Having different broadheads in your quiver? Somethign else to go wrong.

I've seen plenty of passthroughs on deer....not many on hogs over 200 lbs. And what with having to aim FORWARD on a hog, the likelihood of hitting bone is very real.

A "back" hit on a deer, or a pig, whether two blade or more blades can only kill quickly when it gets through the liver. I've seen a doe opened up like a suitcase by a car, everything hanging out of her except heart and lungs, reportedly sitting on a golf course fairway for two days waiting to die.

I don't think three blades going through intestines will kill any quicker than two.

I've seen some hogs shot through the guts take between three and five days to die...I left on Sunday not finding them, and come back Friday and they were laying there, still warm, but dead.

We're hunting stuff that has a very strong will to live, often.

So use what gives YOU confidence, bottom line. If you make a great shot, it's gonna be fine. If you don't, well...those are the ones that live in your dreams...your bad dreams.

To each there own I guess Ray....

When I'm hunting deer and hogs(TX)I have two different bh's in my quiver and have been very successful with that system. Use my big Snuffers for deer and have actually switched arrows to a WW twice when hogs showed up...two shots, two hogs...one big thick shielded boar and one young boar.

And maybe it's just me...but if I'm gonna mess up and hit something too far back thru the paunch....I'm gonna be real glad it's a Snuffer or WW(or other multi blade head or big wide 2 blade also)....and not a narrow 2 blade....there's some vessels back there that if cut will give you a much better chance of quicker death and recovery....for that reason it's always best to cut as much as possible with that type of hit......

Terry...not that we are borderline I think people are re-evaluating their broadhead choices based on the most recent information available and trying to make their set-ups better in their eyes.  Like most I have killed deer with all sorts of heads...multibladed...2 blade etc, but for me personally I feel that the single bevel heads would be a better choice in most situations of a bad hit either forward or aft.  I think the rotation factor of the head causes it to create hemorrage similar to that of a multiblade and penetrates like a good two blade.  I have yet to harvest anything with a single bevel yet but I will for sure post some results this fall (hopefully) for everyone to read.  Not trying to change any minds here just adding more to the pot...   :thumbsup:

Arrows are lethal, even field points.  However, some people enjoy the exercise of figuring out what is the absolutely most lethal setup in the most situations, even if any standard setup will work the majority of the time.  And sure, rifle and hand guns have better penetration, but i've never had as much fun in years of shooting them as I've had the last few months learning traditional archery.  It's a blast and I can do it in my back yard.  I want to start hunting traditional.  I'm just one of those guys who likes to read about everything and talk things to death and beat dead horses etc.  Also, in lieu of actually hunting, thinking about it and worrying about my setup is as close as I'm getting right now  :)

"On the other hand, when you hunt where I do most of my hunting, it's not possible to know what the next critter is going to be- a 90 lb whitetail or a 450 lb hog."

Ray....I'd like to order up one of the 450lb. variety.    :readit:   ;)   I'll be shooting 175 gr. Grizzly Stik single bevels with 75 gr. brass inserts.  Thus far, they have been flying very well.  I'll see ya in July for the Hog Sweat!

(http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa102/Redriderxx/Sam.jpg)


Tim

Iron,
I've killed 3 deer w/ 160gr Grizzly's and they  no way compare to a Snuffer of the same gr weight w/ liver and paunch shots.Spent to many hours looking for blood w/ narrow 2 blade heads on shots to far back.
If you shoot the center of a whitetail w/ a SHARP 145/160gr Snuffer.Your chance and time of recovery are far better than w/ any 2 blade.
I also believe,deer size game shot in the scapula have a better survival rate when  hit w/ 3 blade heads.
 Myself and bother-inlaw have hit whitetail and a blackbear to far in front w/ Snuffer and WW and have caught them later on trailcams or they where killed later in the season.Because of this my bro-inlaw has gone back to grizzly's and has shot whitetails to far in front a few times and have found 2 of deer days later by buzzards.There wasn't enough sign to track the fatally hit deer.
As you can see.My bro-inlaw is ia shoulder crowdwer and shoots 2 blades and I'm a center shooter and like big Snuffers.Each to their own

"Having one broadhead in your quiver for this and another for something else just doesn't seem practical to me."

I had made my own BH's that have a couple problems first they are NOT cost effective in the way I made them which leads to the 2nd problem...I'm afraid to shoot them from ground level LOL since I don't wanna loose them.Perhaps some of the silver flame guys or ashby guys feel the same about their costly heads

So far I've not seen any differance in impact from my own heads (1.25 dia 3 blade),the big 160gr snuffers,big 2blade magnus1, and the WW they ALL hit the same.I guess maybe switching arrows a crunch time isn't practical but they all fly the same so it's really not a big deal sometimes there is a practical reason to have more than 1 BH in your quiver you really don't wanna know how much my own heads would hafta cost LOL they would make silver flames look cheap

On a really BIG buck, I tend to shoot at the antlers. A single-bevel two-blade splits antler better than anything.

QuoteOriginally posted by IronCreekArcher:
.  I think the rotation factor of the head causes it to create hemorrage similar to that of a multiblade  

And I don't think so.

Have fun guys!    :wavey:      :campfire:

QuoteAnd I don't think so.
 

Me too.  :D  

Narrow is still narrow no matter which way you turn it and it still will not cut any more that it's width.  :bigsmyl:

Make it three...   :wavey:

Terry, James & Curt----I don't "think" so but have you tried them? Sorry guys but I had to ask. Since I shoot low poundage bows I'm very interested in broadhead penetration and performance.

"On a really BIG buck, I tend to shoot at the antlers. A single-bevel two-blade splits antler better than anything."

Ya mean if I'd have had a single bevel griz instead on a double bevel magnus 2 blade I mite have half the rack of the buck I shot at last yr    :banghead:    :banghead:    

as for the rotation causeing more hemorrage    :confused:    :confused:    not sure bout that but my double bevel and my 3 blade heads both tend to turn as they go thru things,I thought it was because of the original rotation

Technechally the original ?? had nothing to do with preferance or even which do we prefer. Doc A answered the ? with extensive testing not personal preferance.

I personally don't use a single bevel 2 blade but I'm not going after cape buff either

No I have not used one.For the animals I hunt I have no need for shooting smaller broadheads than what I am useing.I find it hard to believe a 1" wide broadhead no matter the bevel is going to cut as much as my 2" wide treesharks of a 160 snuffer however.The toughest thing I hunt is hogs.I have no trouble with them with my tresharks.Even when I have screwed up and hit the leg bone on a big one the treeshark broke the leg just like it does on deer.I don't care what anyone shoots for any reason they want to but little broadheads will just not cut as much or as big of a hole as one twice it's size.  ;)

If rotation caused the head to cut the same amount of tissue as a multi blade, there would be the same drag and therefore the same penetration of a multi blade.

You never get something for nothing.

I don't think that's strictly true, if the rotation is giving the same length of cut, then the heads would seem to have the same drag.  I believe Ashby's explanation for the better penetration is the splitting of tissue caused by the rotation, causing less drag on the rest of the shaft.  e.g. the single bevel rotates, cracking the bone, causing a big gap for the rest of the arrow.  
That being said, i don't think cut length is the only factor in increasing the chance of  damaging arteries, liver, etc.  At any given spot, the two blade is flat, and could be passing right by an artery.  Hard to imagine a multi blade head doing that.  I have no basis for this other than what I'm picturing in my head.  :)

If you cut the same amount of tissue, the broadhead is going to experience the same amount of drag.  There is no way aroung that.

I doubt Dr. Asby would suggest that any two blade configuration causes less shaft pinch than a multi blade head, but I haven't read the report.

Cut length is only part of the damage game, although IMHO it's the most important part until you are passign through regularly.

QuoteOriginally posted by goblism:
[QB] Well I kind of want to avoid 3 blade broadheads, plus those are a lot more expensive than the 2-blades i have been looking at.  But I have been thinking about the woodsman, just not sure on that 3-blade.

Seems like you are onto some decent heads. I have yet to put any head through any game animal, but I have read great things about the ones you have mentioned.

I know it has been stated before, but your draw length, bow weight, and arrow set up(diameter, FOC) will all play into the penetration issue, as will whatever animal you are hunting. A properly tuned arrow will out penetrate a poorly tuned arrow by tenfold.

Good luck, and shoot straight.

I wasn't disputing the drag caused by the head, i only put "seems" in my post because i'd never though about it until you said it  :)

However, if broadhead drag is the sole determining factor, all else being equal, then a double bevel broadhead should penetrate further because it won't rotate like the single bevel and therefore will cut less and have less drag.  So there must be something else at work.  I'm pretty sure Dr. Ashby did mention less drag on the shaft as an explanation, but I need to go back and look.

Now that I think about it he also mentioned that having a shaft diameter smaller than that of the ferrule as another factor that increases penetration.

QuoteOriginally posted by Terry Green:
 

QuoteOriginally posted by IronCreekArcher:
.  I think the rotation factor of the head causes it to create hemorrage similar to that of a multiblade  

And I don't think so.
[/b]

 

I'm with Terry on this one!

QuoteOriginally posted by bduran:
I wasn't disputing the drag caused by the head, i only put "seems" in my post because i'd never though about it until you said it   :)  

However, if broadhead drag is the sole determining factor, all else being equal, then a double bevel broadhead should penetrate further because it won't rotate like the single bevel and therefore will cut less and have less drag.  So there must be something else at work.  I'm pretty sure Dr. Ashby did mention less drag on the shaft as an explanation, but I need to go back and look.

Shaft drag has a huge effect, but single or double bevel isn't going to reduce that much.  The shaft still has to follow a single cut through the body cavity.