I know several big name bowyers are putting carbon in the limbs, adcock, morrison to name a few. What are the advantages of having carbon in the limbs. I am looking at making my first longbow. What kind of limb core makes the best/fastest bow. I have heard maple does but bamboo is more consistant. I am only making 1 or 2 bows so i am looking at performance.
Ask on the Bowyers Bench forum,thats where the experts are.
Long time bowyers using carbon for the first time will often blow-up quite a few before getting one that holds together. I would recommend staying with glass until you have some valuable experience, unless you have quite a bit of money laying around in "R/D money", because in all likelihood, you will blow up a few. Most will only see a 2-3 FPS increase in speed when using carbon in an already proven design. It's more fragile, as well. The fastest cores are maple, elm, and hickory. Many are playing with foam now, but that doesn't appeal to me.
The carbon is 40% lighter than the glass but more "torsionally stiff" (stabilized left to right) so you can have a faster, lighter bow that is pretty forgiving. I'm not convinced that the foam core has any real advantage over wood. I believe smoothness is mostly about bow design, limb geometry etc. Dropping the glass entirely and going with just carbon and wood as with my Griffon GL will give you about a 5-8 FPS I believe. I don't build them though so I have no trouble believing that carbon may be more difficult to work with. Once their made though I have not heard of their blowing up more?
"they're" :)
I have a Centaur Double Carbon, Centaur Carbon Elite,had a Black Swan carbon hybrid,Morrision Carbon/foam core Dakota and have a one piece ACS on order and Morrision carbon/foam core Cheyenne limbs shipping next week to me. I know all of the above bows I owned so far have been faster than any wood core bow I have owned in the same draw/poundage using my indoor Chrony setup.I am looking forward to trying out the new Cheyenne carbon/foam core limbs its Bobs new design he didn't use carbon in his recurve limbs(just carbon in his longbow)in the past as he saw no gain in peformance but says he is gaing about 3-4 more fps more now with a change in the carbon plus 3-4 FPS with foam. One thing I have noticed is some of my carbon bows are dead quiet and others have alittle different noise to them vs a wood core bow not bad just different. Being a low poundage/short draw guy if I can sneak out another 5-10 FPS using foamcore/carbon it helps some in the field and while some may not see a benefit to 5-10 FPS at low poundage everything I can gain to help make a clean/fast harvest is a good thing for me. I seem to be buying alot of carbon bows lately but to be honest I didn't pick the above bows just for carbon I liked the total package of the bows and the carbon was just something extra in the mix.I have several bows non carbon and they are some of my favorites so carbon isn't everything in a bow nor does it make every bow a Superbow.
Took the words from my mouth Steel...I can't really add more than that. :thumbsup:
I love my Morrison carbon/foam limbs :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
I echo the statements by Cody and JC; however, having stood next to both of them, I can definitely say that my significantly greater height and draw length allow me to put more velocity into an arrow using the same bow. :D On the other hand, their shorter draw lengths allow greater stability, which is what I will claim to be the basis of their more accurate shooting. It obviously could not be the ability of the shooter! :smileystooges:
I haven't had any problems with either carbon fiber or foam cores, and I like both a lot. No doubt some limbs "blow up", even those from the best bowyers, but I understand that the problem is not significantly different when using foam and carbon versus only wood and fiberglass, at least when the limbs are built by those who are knowledgeable and skilled in the art of bow making.
Allan
Nothing wrong with carbon if done right.I think however for someone wanting to build there first bow they are better off not useing it.It adds a lot of cost to what most likely is not going to end up being exactly what they want when it comes out of the form.It would be best to stick with cheaper materials before adding hundreds of dollars cost for what might well just be an experiment.jmo
btw..been there,done that. :D
I think problems with carbon bows "blowing up" are more related to really highly stressed designs with carbon on the belly, and maybe a core that does not match up well. Carbon does not withstand compression as well as fiberglass. You rarely see posts about carbon bows blowing, so its probably an isolated issue with good "hobby" bowyers pushing the limits.
I have made quite a few bows now with carbon on the back, and have yet to even have much difficulty, let alone any failures.
Java Man
I love my carbon ACS's-3 piece and 1 piece. I think it is as much about design as it is about carbon. Schafer and Fedora make first class bows without carbon.
You have to control for all the variables when comparing bows-even or especially the shooter being just one of them. Even the same wood type veneer selection can vary and weigh more from one bow to the other. I know I didn't mean to imply that any carbon bow is necessarily better than a wood bow. I'd still bet string to bow geometry and core tapers etc. matter more than foam versus maple say, but I may be wrong. What I know about the type of "faom" they are using you could put in your eye! :) I did shoot Bob's foam core hybrid and it is truly a superb bow! I would have liked to have someone blindfold me and hand me his wood core, maybe several of them, and see if I achieved statistically valid differences on all that. Every time I demo a new pair of skis they always seem better than what I've been skiing on so I may be suggestible! :)
I went for wood veneers over black syn limbs even though I know it slowed my style bow down a few fps. I wasn't too concerned about speed.
Carbon applied by different bowyers can have different effects and carbon selection/manufacturing and placement (where, how glued on) can all vary. But as I said a properly made carbon lam bow (with ALL variables kept the same) will give you all the advantage of speed and smoothness and more stability and less/almost zero hand shock (which should be less with a lighter limb, no)?
Remember that all top TARGET limbs seem to be made principally of carbon for a reason as a bow to perform like that has to be consistent and very forgiving of technique variations. If wood did that as well, wouldn't the Olympic boys and girls be using it?
I don't know of many complaining of OL Adcock's bow's speed or durability and I believe he gets more that 2 to 3 fps benefit form carbon. (Maybe OL will weigh in here)?
Cheers!
Steve
I don't pretend to be a bowyer but if I was about to start a bow it would not be with carbon. I believe everyone here has a valid point.
Apex is right, for someone just dabbling in the art of bow design/crafting, carbon is another variable, and as many have experienced, a more difficult one to master. If you didn't waste money and/or tear it up, blow it up, mess it up, whatever, I'd be surprised.
I have had a several carbon backed bows and two with foam cores and both are superior materials. In skilled hands and with the right application they are wonderful. Bowyers are getting more speed out of these bows (but we're not talking HUGE increases).
I do not know, but trust those that do, that carbon in the core of a bow may add some stability but no proven performance benefit.
Risk vs. Benefit & Cost vs. Benefit just don't add up for a once or twice deal. Plenty of great bows have been, and still are made using regular "old" cores and glass. JMHO.
Carbon is a poor core choice, it isn't good in compression and tends to be noisier as a core material. It does well on the back of a limb, not very well on the belly in most designs(compression thing again). Carbon takes research to be done properly and you'll notice that most have moved to a carbon weave that use carbon for it's torsional stability among other benefits. For one or two bows a year, glass is much wiser choice for most.
I think youll have convinced me to stay away from carbon for now. Thanks for the replies is foam hard to use?
The smoothnes in the draw of carbon- foam limbs is
unbelivable , i love my shawnee dacota combo doesn,t get any better - my hat of to Mr.Bob.M
ASL
Looks like Bob has started making some wood veneer foam carbon limbs! Very nice!!!
(http://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u31/snag23/10092.jpg)
Hey Snag good job! When I saw those the wantmeter scored an instant high for the day!
You and me both! Turned black into something pretty and functional.
David,
I have had my foam core, carbon backed, maccasser ebony veneer Morrison Dakota longbow limbs for almost a year. Bob has been making these limbs with hardwood veneer for some time now, and they are fast, smooth and beautiful.
Allan
I forgot to mention that Gregg Coffey is making similar limbs on his Shrew longbows (as an option). I will have such limbs soon on a new Classic Hunter takedown. I can hardly wait -- but wait I must!
Allan
Allan, you need to send me the foam cored Shrew you have that I shot at Kalamzoo this year. Pretty darn SWEET to say the least. Flint
I have a carbon-backed Shrew Classic Hunter coming in a week or so. It will be a BumbleBee version with Osage veneers...I can't wait and I have complete faith in JavaMan and the design. My current Super Shrew is wonderful! :jumper:
Guess it's been awhile since I checked up on their progress.
Bill Dunn at Zipper puts veneers over his carbon also. True artist.
I love my morrison carbon foam limbs,fast stable and very easy to draw.
I'd like to see someone take any limb of the same design/shape-one with foam core and one with wood. Perform a draw force curve on each. Would there be a difference? I would think that seeing no change in the DFC between the two would mean the same smooth feeling irrespective of material by definition or subjective impressions. Has anyone done this? Pete Ward? I mean, the difference may be promotional hype or may be genuine. I wasn't just joking when I said that someone can let me try the new "hyperflex core piezo action skiis" and I'm likely to go "wow!" then ski the same time in the race course! LOL! That is not saying that foam core bows are not fast and smooth but the reasons for the performance gains might just be in a new design. Where's Consumer Reports when you need them to test all this out OBJECTIVELY? :)
We have been using carbon in some of our Shrew bows for a couple years. Carbon is best utilized on the back of the bow. A thin veneer over the carbon doesn't seem to affect the benefits the carbon offers. We've been using foam cores for less than a year and to date the result of the carbon and foam combination has been very positive.
Here's a Shrew Classic Hunter with Carbon/foam and Curly Koa Veneers.
(http://www.shrewbows.com/rons_linkpics/Carbon-foam1.JPG)
(http://www.shrewbows.com/rons_linkpics/Carbon-foam2.JPG)
Another question that I had and don't know if anyone can answer: will the foam break down quicker over time? I'm just spitballin' here as the foam I am familiar with has these little air pockets. Again, I may be completely wrong here! I've only shot one foam core bow, a Morrison, and it WAS smooth but I couldn't honestly say it was smoothER as I didn't have the same bow with the smoothest wood core say. Anyway, all in fun-I'm sure the animals don't think these thoughts! :)
Beautiful limbs Ron!!!
Ron,
What kind of performance increase do you see with the carbon and with the carbon/foam limbs from the old glass/wood limbs.
I just shot a Fedora 560 recurve bow made of bamboo core and fiberglass. It shot as fast as a newly acquired carbon/foam bow. Design is pbobably as important as the materials.
QuoteRon,
What kind of performance increase do you see with the carbon and with the carbon/foam limbs from the old glass/wood limbs.
Bob Morrison has done more testing than we have with the carbon and foam and according to his findings the foam core adds 3-5'ps Carbon on the back also adds fps to performance. Another benefit of the foam core is a smoother draw and also a quieter bow. Some of this I'm sure can be attributed to the light weight of the foam.
Other than that the feedback we've been getting back from customers has been consistent with what has been said about the carbon foam limbs being smoother,faster, and quieter.
Having said that my old bamboo core hunting bows have never let me down.
Ron, I was holding out real easy until I saw that bow.
Now I have to go flog myself for a few days.
Killdeer :mad: :help:
Curveman..."their".
Killdeer~fixated. :o
QuoteNow I have to go flog myself for a few days.
Like in the movie
Black Robe ? :eek: .... :biglaugh:
Thanks Ron. I can't imagine a bow quieter than the Super Shrew I have now. Oh and by the way, I am patiently waiting for you to give me a call (I'm hoping in the next couple of weeks).
Mark
For the guy making his own bow, keep in mind that not all carbon sheeting is made the same or preforms the same. Guys like Jack Harrison have their's made for them. It's not an off the shelf item.
Killdeer, did I do it again?! Damn, and I went to finishing school! LOL!
Curveman,
Killie's right - you were right the first time with "their." That finishing school must have worked; you just lost faith in it. :biglaugh:
So it's their no "they are" or they're. Let me see: "the rain in spain falls softly on the plain..." I betcha (bet ya) no one will get THAT reference! :)
Flint -- My foam core Shrew (the first ever) that you shot at Kalamazoo is incredible in every way. The only things that could perhaps improve on it would be carbon backing and a Bow Bolt. It is quiet, smooth, fast and a very good shooter. When I was out hog hunting with it this fall, I started stump shooting at unknown distances on the way back to my vehicle after the morning hunt and while I was waiting for my hunting buddy. I was hitting very close to or right on almost all the natural targets I was shooting at. At one point I was a fairly long way from a little broken off stalk of bush that was 6" high and 1/2" in diameter. I thought to myself, "it would take someone like Byron Ferguson or Ron LaClair to be able to hit that stickup at this distance. Then I drew back, steadied, and released. The arrow flew straight at my target and hit it solidly in the center, both vertically and horizontally. It all felt so natural that I wasn't even too surprised. I stepped off the distance at 40 yards, which made me feel even better about the shot. It takes a good bow to be so light (about a pound) and yet be so accurate that I could make a shot like that. If I do my part, that little 56" foam core Classic Hunter will do what I ask of it.
The carbon fiber will be nice, but the Bow Bolt will be even nicer in my next Shrew. I do have several Shrews with the Bow Bolt and will not order another without the takedown feature. My Super Shrew cape buffalo bow has a Bow Bolt or I would be taking something else to Africa in two weeks. The "something else" would have been a Morrison or a Brackenbury 3 piece. Before I got the Shrew buffalo bow, I thought about buying a heavier set of Dakota foam/carbon limbs for my Morrison ILF to use on the buffalo, but the Shrew is much lighter and easier to take along while I am hauling my wife's rifles and other gear.
Ron -- that bow in your pictures is getting me excited for the one like it (other than woods) I have on order. I am tempted to change my choices based on the beauty of that one! :eek:
Allan
QuoteOriginally posted by Curveman:
I mean, the difference may be promotional hype or may be genuine. I wasn't just joking when I said that someone can let me try the new "hyperflex core piezo action skiis" and I'm likely to go "wow!" then ski the same time in the race course! LOL! That is not saying that foam core bows are not fast and smooth but the reasons for the performance gains might just be in a new design. Where's Consumer Reports when you need them to test all this out OBJECTIVELY? :)
It ain't hype brother. When I got my carbon/foam Dakota limbs it literally changed the bow. While I didn't do any quantitative analysis, the "wow" feeling is still as strong as the day I shot them. Without looking at the core, I can immediately tell you if a Shawnee/Dakota is foam or boo just by drawing it. There IS a difference even in just the "feel".
As far as performance, I did run 2 strings of 10 out of each limb set (same riser) and there was at least a 4fps difference on all shots (some were 5-6 but I gave it 1-2fps for my release errors). These were adjusted to fps/gr because arrow weight and #'s were slightly different.
By the way, these limbs were the same design, only materials were different.
I'm well aware of "new bow syndrome". But after a year and a half with them, I've sold all my other 5 bows (top of the lines each one) and am down to two...both carbon/foam dakota. So in that year and a half, I've shot quite a few other bows and not once did I say to myself "I want to buy this one!".
Disbelief does not make it untrue. :readit: Just my humble opinion, your mileage may vary, no purchase necessary, deposit refunded upon return...etc. etc.
And from my memberin, it's "the rain in spain falls mainly on the plain" Audrey Hepburn in My Fair Lady.
JC -- Hey brother, you almost got it right. Actually it is "The rain in Spain stays mainly in the plain." You were right as to the movie and actress, although the song is a duet with Henry Higgins (Rex Harrison) who uses the same words. It is part of him teaching her to speak like a lady, and this song is where it finally clicks with her. Hope all is well with you and the family. Give all of them my best.
JC's statements on the foam carbon limbs are spot on, although I do agree with many here that design is more important than materials. The Morrisons and Shrews with foam cores and carbon backing are fantastic. But I also have been testing a new Brackenbury static tip recurve called the Peerless that is the nicest shooting recurve hunting bow I have ever shot. It is phenomenally quiet and dead in the hand. It also is very smooth and fast. The "rest of the story" is that the Peerless has boo core limbs with exotic wood veneers and clear fiberglass -- no foam or carbon. As a result of shooting the bow I have changed my order (an order placed a year ago with a deposit of 50%) from a Non-Typical to a Peerless. I would not even mention the bow publicly at this time, except that Bill Howland has posted a reference to the Peerless on his website as being on order by one of his customers. My point is that design is still the most important factor, but sometimes the design lends itself to improvement with certain materials, just as JC and others have stated.
Allan
Someone said carbon isn't a good core material.The triple carbon bow I have has bamboo and carbon core w/ carbon back and belly and w/ wood veneers back and front.Very fast bow and handles very heavy arros exceptionally well.I'm very pleased w/ my carbon core bow.I asked the bowyer about foam and he said that bamboo is a lighter material than foam w/ his limb design,so he saw no benefit w/ foam.
amara911
Just for grins,
What's the specs on your buffalo shrew?
Jason
Foam is lighter than Bamboo of any kind, No matter what your design is............
Jason,
The buffalo Shrew is not as high in poundage as you might imagine. Fortunately, I have a 29 1/2" draw, so the arrow has more string time, and therefore more energy than the same poundage at a standard 28" draw. At 29 1/2" the Shrew is 68 pounds. It throws the 900+ grain arrows out there pretty fast. When my wife sits on the patio when I shoot, she always comments on how much more powerful the arrows sound zooming past her than the lighter arrows from my lower poundage bows. My neighbors from down the street comment on the smack the arrows make when they hit my target. The bow is quiet but those heavy arrows are not.
I love my foam core Morrison limbs -- all of them -- and I have a bunch. Bob's bows are as good as anyone's. I am a huge fan of my Shrews, Brackenburys and Blacktails, each of which I like for specific characteristics, but I wouldn't want to be without my various Morrisons, especially those with foam core limbs and carbon backing. I don't think it takes those materials to build some of the best bows out there, but longbow limbs in particular seem to benefit substantially from the advanced composite materials. Bob has been a forerunner in this area and his bows show the rewards of experience in the hands of a great craftsman.
Allan
Bob,
Is foam lighter than carbon and dose foam have the same functioning qualities as carbon as a core?Can you grind foam to desire thickness and taper?
amar911,
Not to discredit Bob Morrison but they have been using foam in bow limbs long before any of the bowyers today.
Foam is lighter than carbon. Foam has a lot of air in it(Glass air bubbles). Foam cores have been around for over 30 yrs. and has been used in recurves for that long. According to David Sosa(Das bows)We were one of the 1st to use it in a longbow. We have our own formula in the foam. Carbon is the same our own formula on the direction of the fibers, # of layers ,weaves and uni.and a few other things with the carbon. We have spent a lot of money getting the foam and carbon where we want it to be. And I'm sure there will still be changes as we go. Anyone can get our foam from Old Master Crafters. Our carbon to a few select bowyers that are in business.
QuoteOriginally posted by Bob Morrison:
Foam is lighter than carbon.Moisture, weather are not effected the way Bamboo or nay wood. It is sanded the same way wood cores are(very messy) is Foam has a lot of air in it(Glass air bubbles). Foam cores have been around for over 30 yrs. and has been used in recurves for that long. According to David Sosa(Das bows)We were one of the 1st to use it in a longbow. We have our own formula in the foam. Carbon is the same our own formula on the direction of the fibers, # of layers ,weaves and uni.and a few other things with the carbon. We have spent a lot of money getting the foam and carbon where we want it to be. And I'm sure there will still be changes as we go. Anyone can get our foam from Old Master Crafters. Our carbon to a few select bowyers that are in business.
QuoteOriginally posted by Bob Morrison:
Foam is lighter than carbon.Moisture, weather are not effected the way Bamboo or any wood. It is sanded the same way wood cores are(very messy) is Foam has a lot of air in it(Glass air bubbles). Foam cores have been around for over 30 yrs. and has been used in recurves for that long. According to David Sosa(Das bows)We were one of the 1st to use it in a longbow. We have our own formula in the foam. Carbon is the same our own formula on the direction of the fibers, # of layers ,weaves and uni.and a few other things with the carbon. We have spent a lot of money getting the foam and carbon where we want it to be. And I'm sure there will still be changes as we go. Anyone can get our foam from Old Master Crafters. Our carbon to a few select bowyers that are in business.
Sorry, its early.I hopem this is not how the whole week will go.
I was not a believer in the carbon and foam till I shot it. It is all I will by from now on. Bob M. has been a fore runner in the latest and greatest for a long time now. Maybe I should listen up more often. He is right on with the foam/carbon in a longbow.
I recieved my recurve foam/carbon limbs from Bob Morrison last week. Replaced a set of bamboo limbs of the same weight and lenght. Bamboo good, foam/carbon better.
I've been shooting a number of fine bows and my 2 morrisons with foam and carbon are dead in the hand, FAST and SILENT. AWESOME BOWS!!! Bob's great to deal with also
So Ron are you putting anything over the wood veneers that is covering the carbon? I would think that they would not hold up over time on top of the carbon unless maybe they are thin enough to be totally saturated with glue.
TTT
lol, bob you kill me!!!! :bigsmyl:
I just picked up a Morrison IlF with carbon foam dakota limbs last week. I'm still dialing it in but it looks to be a real shooter. I had no Idea you could get something like that. It's 38 @ 28 and I'm shooting 32" front loaded 400s off it at around 29 and a half inch draw. I had to turn it down a little as it was just a tad fast for those arrows. It doesn't seem to have much trouble with riser torque, must be the carbons side stability.
I have several pronghorns and widows but this is my first carbon bow. It is noticeably lighter in the hand. I was able to shoot some dinner plate groups at 45 yards with surprised wheel bow guys in lanes on both sides of me. I should be doing better than than after some small tweaks to the rest and the string. I think I'm going to like the carbon.
Crooked Stic. Sometimes we put veneer over the carbon, and it is sealed well with Thunderbird Endurance Epoxy.
Gregg