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Main Boards => PowWow => Topic started by: Arkansaslongbow on May 22, 2009, 11:31:00 PM
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Stepping up from my "wally-world" tent and wanting to buy a good canvas wall one for up coming hunting season;NEVER have had one so I am very new to this;
Any pictures of yours and any advice would be greatly appreciated; I don't want real big but big enough to handle small wood stove;
Thank you so much for your vauable time.. :campfire:
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I have spent months and months in wall tents; in all kinds of weather.
Canvas is great; but their are other materials that work also. I like canvas- but you have to treat it- and a plastic rain fly is the norm in wall tent camps.
If your hunting by yourself or with a buddy; an 8x10 is fine. You can still have enough room for a woodstove.
I think a big factor is wall height. An 8x10 with 2 foot walls will be a different tent - than an 8x10 with 3 or 4 foot walls.
2 foot or less on walls; and your going to be sleeping on the ground. 3 foot walls; and you can put a cot right next to the wall and not worry about touching the roof.
I like putting the stove pipe on the left; by the door as you go in. Most people open right doors if their is a double door; and the chances of someone opening the flap and walking into the stove decrease.
Make sure your woodstove has legs. You can have pipe caps welded to the stove; and carry the pipe legs inside the stove in transport. That helps too in leveling the woodstove.
First decide how the tent will be transported. 65 pounds is about the normal limit for one side of a horse. If on a horse; make sure the frame (if you have one) is not too long for the horses.
If your not going to put it on a horse or mule and take it back in - just lift it from the truck- then a 10x12 is a really good size. Again wall height is the key.
I sleep on a cot with a thin foam pad; and with a woodstove in the tent - you can count on a good nights sleep.
I have tried all kinds of waterproofers; and fire retardant waterproof combinations; and still; they will leak. I suggest just plan on putting a plastic tarp on it.
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Panther Primitives makes some of the best tents on the market.
http://www.pantherprimitives.com/
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I cant add much to what Brian said, 'Cept they are heavy and a pain to pack. But they are nice, especialy when the weather goes bad.
SL
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I use a 9x12 wall tent for end of the road camps, and use a small packable tent for spike camps. 9x12 has plenty of room for two folks and will handle three OK. Four foot walls will be standard on most 8x10 or 9x12 tents, but many makers will make the walls higher if you ask. For example, I had mine made with 5-foot walls. Provides a lot more room to move around without bending or hitting your head on the ceiling. I like the tent to open from both ends and run the stove pipe out of one of the end flaps. A sod cloth around the base of the tent and tarp floor aren't necessary, but nice. Helps to keep little critters out and provides a clean and cleanable floor. Lots of good makers out there. I got mine quite a few years ago from Beckel Canvas Products in Portland, Ore., and highly recommend that company. There's nothing quite like hunting out of a wall tent. Good luck
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Brian hit on the key elements and I posted pics over on the *********** for you of my wall tents. Two other items;I use a roll of black 4 mil plastic purchased in the garden center for a floor,just cut off what I need. And an automotive galvanized oil drip tray makes a wood stove heat shield for under your stove if you need one. A couple of throw rugs or astroturf at the entrance,at the cots are nice touches.
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(http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg218/doctari_album/markspixs08-090042.jpg)I really enjoy mine, 12x17 with cylinder wood stove. I used this last November in Michigan though rain, snow and cold weather and stayed very warm and dry. Would recommend the rain fly for the top side, canvas stayed dry and was never wet. Good luck on your search. Mark
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You need to check out Joe Lasch's company and the tents he carries.
Pyramid style tents in different sizes and the accessories that go with them.
I spent a week in in his personal tent last winter and it was very nice.
He's also a sponsor and a great guy.
Prairie Traditions.... tents, stoves, archery gear aand more. (http://www.prairietrad.com/)
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Originally posted by Brian Krebs:
Canvas is great; but their are other materials that work also. I like canvas- but you have to treat it- and a plastic rain fly is the norm in wall tent camps.
I have tried all kinds of waterproofers; and fire retardant waterproof combinations; and still; they will leak. I suggest just plan on putting a plastic tarp on it.
So much about the above is completely false... :banghead: ...
Arklongbow-please type Sunforger into your internet search engine, and look at manufacturers who offer that premium canvas. Absolutely none of them will tell you what is quoted above. PM me and I will give you a list of several top quality manufacturers...if you do end up searching online you will end up talking to me anyways :D But please do not take any of the myths you may hear about canvas as fact!
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Iwas a an Outfitter in the Selway Bitterroot Wilderness for 28 years. My tents and tipis were always out of a canvas called Vivatex or marine grade canvas.During spring bear in May I never put a plastic tarp over a wall tent but did for Fall hunts because of snow-it would slide off tent easier. I also used a tent called a cowboy tent-one pole that works great for warm weather. Reliable Tent and Awning in Billings Montana has a new small Tent that looks great for a small hunting tent. Cabelas Chineese nylon tents leak under real wet conditions. Ken Allaman
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Thanks for the plug Charlie! :scared: )
In my opinion two things make a good camp great, and either pyramid or wall tents can be set up with both:
1) Wood stove
2) Attached fly
As sndmn11 mentioned, Sunforger is a great material!
For long term camps and maximum comfort, nothing beats a canvas tent! Give me a call anytime and I'll try to answer any questions you might have.
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sndmn11 knows his stuff and the company he works for sells great tents. Dry as a bone :cool:
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I have a Canvas Cabin that's bout 25 years old and doing great. Be sure to buy a screen if you will be going early. Helps w/bugs. Ties over ridgepole and can be left home in colder weather.
I agree w/Ken. Mine has never leaked, but visqueen really helps take the snow off in cold weather.
We use the wall tent to live in and sleep in smaller tents if there are more than 3 of us.
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SNDMN11
I am offended. Look at the picture of Doctari's camp; and you will see plastic over the tent. I have lived in tents for as long as a month at a time; and started doing it 20 years before you were born.
Normal canvas will leak; what your advertising seems to be a marine canvas; or at least a canvas that is treated with something- is it not? Is it pure canvas your selling?
For pack trips; you need a good size tent; and a light tent; and the tents I have used I have treated with all kinds of waterproofers and fire retardants and combinations of those.
If you touch the inside of a true canvas tent when it is raining; that spot will drip water. If your material is not- I am happy for you; but sunforger is not `just` canvas.
Even modern material tents need a seam sealer put on them so they don't leak.
I am happy if your sunforger works; but I have a canvas tent that was made in the 60's' and if you can stand a week in the rain with it; then your dipped in bee wax.
I am not lying about canvas tents leaking; and no I have never used a sunforger tent; have you ever tried a regular canvas tent in a rain storm?
If you had - you might understand the origin of sunforger canvas.
geesh. I did not deserve that slap !
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I got your back on this one BK. Any canvas that I know about needs a rainfly over it. Best way is suspended at least a few inches above the canvas not just drapped over it. It should not actually touch the tent.
Before I bought my truck camper last year I slept in a standard nylon walltent since 1985. When setting camp I would tie a rope between two trees about 2 feet higher than the top of my tent. Then I would put a tarp that was bigger than my tent on the rope and make a secondary roof. Put my tent under that and I was good to go.
Use a tarp longer and wider that you actually need. That way you have a place to store firewood and have kind of a patio as well.
Even if I had a tent that was 100% waterproof I'd still have a fly on it. If for no other reason than having somewhere to sit besides in the tent.
AKA Whippersnapper
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Brian, and others, I don' want to contradict you all, but let me share my experience.
The first year I had my montana canvas wall tent I followed the instructions and set it up and wet it down. That spring, summer and fall were uneventfull, until the last two days of hunting season. I had to go home but my buddy stayed in camp. there was an inch plus of rain that fell in 3 or 4 hrs. it leaked at the seams, then 10'' of snow fell, my friend bailed out when it started to snow. I went back in the snow to check on my camp. All was OK but a little damp.
I was sure that I needed a cover for the tent. My other buddies with wall tents asked me about the preperation (wetting it down). Then suggested that I may not have treated it properly. I went out on a limb & set it up again just before a rain storm. ZERO LEAKS! my tent just needed to shrink a little.
Brian, ask Preacher or Burr (Craig) if his tent leaks while he is hunting.
I now use a fly in front of my tent to make a porch, and have considered a second layer of canvas above my tent for an additional layer of shade in the heat of the summer.
Oh yeah, the screen mounted to the frame at the door is an abosolute necessity. Last thing, I tack down my left door to keep my stove safe, and stack wood behind it.
Best of luck!
Rich
One last thing Joe is a great guy, you can't go wrong working with him!!
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That is not a plastic tarp on top of my montana wall tent, it is a lightweight nylon rain fly that I purchased with the tent as a optional item. It works really well during heavy snow. I have never had water leak's or wet canvas. I was amazed at how dry the tent stayed. Top quality and first rate in my book. I also made my own awning post with bow hangers out of cedar. I like the fly on top with the additional length. It provides a little outdoor shelter for dutch oven cooking when the weather is nasty. I have also used my wood stove to cook on too, made elk chilli during a heavy snow storm. Sure was nice and warm inside.
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I outfitted in the Cabinets for ten years. Usually put up six tents that stayed up from August to end of November. Like Brian, I would not dream of putting clients in a tent that didn't have a plastic fly over it. Several of these tents were made by Montana Canvas.
If there is a material out now that will not leak then that would be great and I would give it a serious look.
Like as been said above, stake down the left door and stack wood behind. Use a roof jack if a exit hole isn't provided by the maker.
The biggest tip I can suggest is make sure the tent is completely dry before putting it away for the year. This will extend the life of your tent greatly. Have a sewing awl with the tent. Life happens when you live out of a tent, besides which, bear like to cut ribbons out of the walls.
These thoughts are based on my experience and not meant to disparage anyone else's experience or products.
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Davis tents i`ve had mind for 12yrs has not leaked yet, never put anything on it
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I've got a couple wall tents that I've used for years, Both canvas. The 10 by 12 is treated with a treatment that has since been pulled from the market. It has never leaked in even the hardest rains.
The 8 by 10 is untreated and the lighter 10 oz canvas of a higher grade. Not sunforger though I wish it was. With a homemade internal frame it will not leak if I do one thing before the canvas gets really wet. That is loosen all the guy ropes. This lets the cotton swell and will seal it. Some drips will come in at the stove jack area but not enough to bother.
I'll tarp the top in the winter to let the snow slide off.
The 8 by 10 has been out all winter 4 years now as a winter hunting camp. Cozy and warm to 10 below. Total time set up and use over the years on the 10 by 12 is about 4 years now and I've never resealed it. Its a hair warmer in the cold as it's 12 oz canvas.
Big fan of canvas here, especialy wall tents. My next will be of sunforger canvas if I can wear these two out.
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I have a 14x14 officers tent made by Strinz tipi of NE in 2002. Mine is made of 13 oz Sunforager canvas, I added the 14x16 awning for cooking & getting out the rain.
I set it up every year for our deer camp and leave it up for 4 months. I've never had a leak in mine and I've never re-treated it.
My buddy has a 16x16 from the same maker that the center pole broke while leaving it up this winter and when we got up to tear it down it had a foot of water standing it with just a few leaks at the seams. He hasen't had any leaks since.
I like the officers model because it has a 11'9" center pole that allows the rain & snow to run off well.
I've had my tent in some nasty storms and heavy snows with no leaks and would highly reccommend a canvas tent to anyone.
Anyone who's shared my camp can attest to what I'm saying.
(http://i397.photobucket.com/albums/pp59/LonesomeWind/IMG_0525.jpg)
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This is my first tent, 12 oz 10 by 12. It's right at 20 years old. The internal frame, stove & porch are all home made from scraps scavaged. Frame is 2" irrigation pipe the horses busted.
The porch canvas is three peice so you can leave a side open or both sides and put the smaller tent door to door with this one and use it as a cook tent. The porch keeps gear dry and is great for cooking in the summer time. Also keeps the firewood dry in the bad fall & winter weather.
I set it up for company in the summer when needed.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v347/roughcountry/IMG_0489.jpg)
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Springbar works for me in NV
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While I don't have any strong recomendations for a canvas tent... except I was really impressed by Whip's pyramid. I will say that I've spent more than my fair share of time in white canvas tents of different configurations.
Nothing in the hunting world says "elk hunt" like that white canvas.
Something about topping the last hill after a long days hunt and seeing that white beacon of comfort nestled at the edge of the clearing.
It means warmth, comfort and a good nights sleep.
And most of us can be more at home in one than at home.
When the weather outside is frightful...
(http://www.tradgang.com/upload/charlie/orecampfire2.jpg)
Inside it's so delightful...
(http://www.tradgang.com/upload/charlie/oreoatmeal1.jpg)
I could have sat in that tent with Robin and Curtis telling stories and relaxing for a very long time.
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-Brian, my post was not intended as a slap at you. I quoted you to illustrate the misconceptions that some people have about canvas wall tents. I intended the post as a helpful tool for Arkansaslongbow because he wanted advice on wall tents...why would I, as a fellow outdoorsmen, traditional hunter, and hard-working American, withhold any information that can be useful to him? This in part means correcting incorrect information that others have given him, and pointing him in the direction of correct information. I would not want to make a decision with my hard earned money without complete and accurate information, and assume he would not want to do the same...you may choose to fualt me for that, but the man asked for advice. Yes, for the record, I am a part of the team that composes one of the previously mentioned wall tent manufacturers.
-Arkansaslongbow, Sunforger (formerly Vivatex, until Vivatex lost the patent many years ago) is a treatment that is reffered to as a "dry finish". What this means to you is that the treatment is within the canvas itself, as opposed to being layered on top of the canvas. This process allows the microscopic pores between the fibers to remain open so that moisture within the tent i.e. your persperation, steam from a pot of coffee, the vapor from your breath, etc. will escape. This means no condensation problems...it also means that if you were to have a Sunforger treated tent, you will never have to do anything with it other than store it bone dry. When you hear that people have treated their tent on thier own, typically they mean that they have used a paraffin based treatment such as Canvak. Using a product like that ends up filling in the pores and then condensation issues arise. If you were to talk to a manufacturer who uses the Sunforger canvas they will tell you just as I have.
There are different types of canvas typically used on tents; single fill and double fill. Canvas is basically a woven grid pattern (like a piece of graph paper) of cotton threads. Single fill canvas designates a canvas that is composed of a single twisted thread running one way, and then two threads twisted together running perpindicular. A double fill canvas, something that you will see refered to as "Army Duck", is two threads twisted together running both ways. This means that an army duck canvas has a higher thread count per square inch than a single fill canvas and a tighter weave pattern. Thus an army duck canvas offers extreme protection from wind, rain, snow, etc. The tight weave pattern itself of an army duck canvas is what protects the occupants from the elements, whereas a looser weave pattern of a single fill canvas needs the added help of a paraffin based treatment that must be re-applied by the tent owner in order to come close to the performance of an army duck canvas. A single fill also has less tear strength than an army duck canvas. As I mentioned before, this additional treatment is very likely to cause condensation problems.
So why would someone buy a single fill canvas tent in the first place? Beats me! I think it is likely due to false myths and misconceptions that have been passed on by those who are un-educated to the fact that they do not have to accept condensation or leaking. When people say that you cannot touch the inside of a canvas tent without it "leaking", they are mis-informed. This happens when condensation collects on the interior of the tent (due to the reasons I stated above) and their contact with the canvas gives the condensation a point in which to follow the direction taht gravity is pulling it. Typically this condensation issue is magnified when it is raining because of the higher humidity and lower due point ( I think? I am no weather expert) that occurs in a rain storm and then people assume the tent is leaking. The simplest solution? Use a tent that will not have condensation issues and one made using Sunforger canvas is exactly that. I have used both untreated army duck tents and Sunforger process treated tents and have never had any issues with "leaking" or condensation. An untreated tent will perform great, but is not preshrunk which can cause issues for setup fit.
A great idea would be to call any tent manufacturers you are looking at and have them send you a sample of their canvas. Take the samples and put them over the top of a glass and create a little "bowl" with them by securing them around the glass with a rubber band and then put some water on the top of the canvas. I will bet that a sample of Sunforger will keep any water from the bottom of the glass for over a week. This is with standing water. When you are talking about a tent, which is designed with a sloped roof to shed water, snow, etc. it makes sense that it not need to be an absolutely waterproof material (which would not breath) such as vinyl or polypropelene or sil-nylon.
There are a lot more things that go into a wall tent that I have not covered, but I would be more than happy to answer any questions that you may have. I hope all of this made sense, and please ask if something needs clarified. My intention here is to share with my knowledge and help to educate. Here are some reputable wall tent manufacturers that will make you a great camp from army duck Sunforger canvas:
Canvas Cabins
Cylinder Stoves
Bekel Canvas
Springbar/Kirkhams
Davis Tent
Bravo Tent
Rainier Tent
Kwik kamp
Dave Ellis Tents
Cactus Jack
Reliable Tent
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Wow sndmn, thats a ton of info on canvas.
Charlie, those pics made my day. Really got to laughing at my boots on Curtis. Great times.
I figure if we ever need snow the first week in September again I'm gonna get you and Curtis out here :D
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Great explaination Kyle. I have heard it before, but I think you explain it all in easier to understand terms.
Panther Primitives tents are another tent manufacturer that uses the army duck with Sunforger. There are two different weights of fabric - 10.38oz, and 13 oz., either with or without flame retardant treatment.
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Sndmn 11 : first off I am not mad at you - lets get past that element.
Now you said this:
"So why would someone buy a single fill canvas tent in the first place? Beats me!"
Well I can tell you ! When I go to a yard sale and see a wall tent for sale for 25 dollars I am buying it.
My contention was and is that wall tents are known to leak. I think Sunforger is a tent of a different subject.
Listen to your own words:
"A great idea would be to call any tent manufacturers you are looking at and have them send you a sample of their canvas. Take the samples and put them over the top of a glass.."
Now if there was no leaky wall tents; why would that test exist for any reason? It seems it proves sunforger works; but that others DON'T.
Don't - as in are not as good as Sunforger. Not that other tents do not leak.
I am 58 and I am calling you a young whippersnapper. I am as old as I can be thus far; and have spent months upon months in wall tents.
Yep Sunforger might be; and I totally believe you- waterproof.
But to argue that wall tents in general don't need a tarp or 'RAINfly' is wrong.
Now you are what 24 or 25 and your reality is half of my reality minus 8 years or so; and I was tent camping at that age.
You'll see - you will get older and things like 'church keys' and 'T.V. antennas' will make people look at you like : 'oh-OK then'.
You DO know what a 'church key' is right ? :D :campfire: :archer:
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-A church key would be a tool, or device, that has a can opener on one end and a bottle opener on the other...I actually have an antenna on my TV right now, I need to go get one of those digital converters soon, thanks for the reminder!
The test is meant to show that the tight weave of an army duck canvas is more than enough on its own to hold back water without slapping on pounds of canvak or paraffin that stiffens the tent, makes it weigh a ton, and most importantly takes away from the breathability. However, I will not tell you that Sunforger or army duck is waterproof, and I want to make that clear. In order to remain breathable it cannot be waterproof. Eventually, in our test the water would seap (seep?) through because the army duck is breathable. This is not an issue with a tent that is setup properly where the canvas is tight, because a tight tent leaves no area for water to sit on and recreate this experiment in real life.
I do not believe that a canvas tent will leak from external moisture, although I'm sure it happens in some cases. What is thought of as leaking is most likely condensation from internal moisture. The condensation collects mainly on the inside of the roof because vapor typically rises and gives the impression that the roof is leaking. This is due to the lack of breathability caused by covering up or filling in the pores with a wet treatment. If one were to stick their mouth and nose against such a treated piece of canvas and try to breath through it, they would have a very hard time doing so. If they cannot get air through the canvas it would make little sense that water vapor would be able to escape the inside of the tent.
As far as a poly tarp or rainfly is concerned, the same principal applies. The poly or vinyl used in the tarp is an absolute waterproof material with zero breathability. If one were to take a great, breathable, army duck tent and suck that rainfly down tight against the canvas, they would likely see condensation as well. They would essentially be defeating the purpose of investing in a quality tent. A rainfly serves a few purposes, and despite its name, protection from rain is not one of them. First, a poly/vinyl rainfly offers some protection to the canvas from sparks and embers, but that should not really be an issue if someone uses their stove correctly. Second, the slicker surface of the poly/vinyl compared to canvas helps to slide ice and heavy wet snow off the canvas easier and quicker...this is more important for those who set their tents up with an internal frame. Last but most importantly, poly and vinyl are extremely UV resistant, where canvas is not so much. For those who live in their tents year-round for several years, and those who have their tents set up for several months at a time for many years (outfitters/guides, etc.), it is important to protect their canvas investment with a less expensive poly or vinyl fly from the sun. However, they must take more care when setting up their camp in order to ensure that they have some sort of an air gap between the fly and the canvas so that the canvas still has the ability to breath. Other than these certain circumstances, a rainfly really is not needed and there are probably better things to spend money on such as libations that need a church key.
Yes, I turned 25 a few weeks ago. I do not think that my age has any relevance as to what I know about my profession. Would it be a wise thing for someone to tell a younger auto mechanic that they know more about vehicles than the mecahnic because they have been driving longer than they have been a mechanic? Maybe not...the mechanic gets paid to know his facts about vehicles, and I get paid to know my facts about my profession. Keep the questions coming, I'm actually on the clock right now!
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Geesh. So- tents exposed to sunlight are affected by the sunlight; and canvas tents can leak.
After 45 years of using canvas tents; and having them leak- and not being the only one to have suffered this fate- I rest my case.
Your 25. If age has no relevance; then in another 25 years: you will be no more knowledgeable ?
I challenge you to take my wall tent and make it not leak. Please.
In the meantime; I will use my 12x12 Cabela's Deluxe Alaknak™ II Tent. I can lay in it and look at the stars through a plastic window on the roof; and stay warm all night with my woodstove; it is a fantastic tent; never has leaked; and has stood up to a lot weather wise.
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young whippersnapper ! :bigsmyl:
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certainly! PM me and I will give you an address to ship your tent to.
where has Arkansaslongbow been?
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Thompson water seal used to be labeled for canvas. It has since changed it's formula and will not dry if sprayed on canvas. It's what I trated my first tent with years ago and it still won't leak.
I found a old gallon can of it at our fish & game shop and traded them a new formula for the old.
I can treat one single warp tent if I nead to in the future. You still have to shrink the canvas prior to treating it.
I don't know a thing about what works nowdays so my next canvas will be sunforger.
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The old Thompson water seal was combustable. A hot stove pipe touching the canvas treated with it would/could ignite. Lost a tent to the stuff. Thats one of the reasons it was taken off the market. Worked good however.
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Originally posted by sndmn11:
where has Arkansaslongbow been?
I think he went to get some popcorn :biglaugh:
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I'll put my canvas up against your Alaknak in a bad Nebraska thunderstorm. I've had both & the 13oz canvas wins, hands down.
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hey guys;
i am sorry that i haven't posted in a few days but found out that my mother-in-law was told that she has cancer; have been with my wife to get mom settle in little rock, ark at the cancer hospital{going to be a long summer} and just now found some time to do some reading and posting;
can't say enough on how much i appreciate the information that has been given on this subject; will be looking hard to find a good canvas tent and will take the knowledge that has been given and use it wisely;
keep mom in your prayers and as always thank you so much for all your response and your vast knowledge...arkansaslongbow;
p.s. sorry for all the small lettering,caps button is not working on this old machine.... :rolleyes:
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Barry, sorry to hear about your mother in law. I'll keep her in my thoughts and prayers.
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I have the old Cabala's Alanak 12x12. It was made by Montana Canvas. They have a model called the Spike III that very similar. There is plenty of room for 2 with a stove 3 with out. The Spike III looks to be a up grade from mine. It has 4' sides with a single pole in the middle. I made a round self that the pole slides through the middle and hangs from 3 chains connected to "S" hooks held in place with a hose clamp. Made a lantern hook that also fits under the hose clamp.