Hello Trad Gang,
We've got a new jig that will let you point load and internally foot your wooden shafting. Here's a link to the sponsor's classifieds for more information.
Sponsor\\'s Classifieds - Internal Footing Jig (http://tradgang.com/noncgi/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=48;t=000849)
Available in two sizes, 11/32" and 23/64", and priced at $24.99 each.
These are only available at Braveheart Archery and we don't have a ton of them, so get 'em while we've got 'em. PM or e-mail if you'd like to purchase.
Thanks! Tim @ Braveheart
Cool. PM sent.
Here's a look at what this jig can do in a finished arrow. This is a Wolverine 160 that weighed in at 145 grains after sharpening. With only a 1 3/4" insert, point weight was pushed to 220 grains and FOC was 17%. Obviously with a heavier point or longer insert much higher weights are easily possible...and it makes the arrow stronger! Win - win! :thumbsup:
(http://images.imagelinky.com/1242265866.jpg) (http://images.imagelinky.com/1242265866.jpg)
No gaudy outside extras and this will last you a lifetime unless you lose it. :D
PM sent.
TTT...
used to do this all the time with woodies - this new jig system makes it SO MUCH EASIER and FASTER. gonna get me one, even though i don't use woodies much! :D
Fantastic!
Wow guys! About all I've done last night and today is pack and ship jigs. I think we hit a bullseye here...that's the good news.
The bad news is now they are gone... :eek: :eek:
We'll get some more ASAP and be sure to post when they're here.
Thanks for all your support, we appreciate it!
Tim @ Braveheart
I was to slow on this. Dang it was one more day till payday. If you start a list of customers to notify when they come in please add my name.
Jack, with the response we've had I'm sure we'll have to make a list so everyone who wants one can have the opportunity to get one.
Please shoot me an e-mail or PM and that'll be all I need to put you on the list. Look at the bright side, your almost at the top! :jumper:
Thanks all...
Just to let everyone know, these jigs are sized exactly at 11/32nds and 23/64ths, you may have to sand your point ends a little, especially if the arrow has absorbed some moisture.
I looked into making the hole oversize to accommodate swelling etc.. but then it gets sloppy and the drill may not center perfectly.
I just take some 100 grit sandpaper and wrap it around the point end and twist. It takes a few minutes but I think it is better than an off center hole.
Thanks guys!
Andy
I have made a jig to hold my shaft on my drillpress; however I havn't used a guide for the drill bit. I have tried slow to fast drill speeds to no avail. My bit keeps running out along the grain skewing the hole off center. Using a brad point bit didn't help. From the picture, this jig looks like it keeps the hole centered!
Ham, that's exactly what it does. It aligns both your shaft and the drill bit so you can get near perfect alignment.
Anyone wanting to be notified when the next batch comes in just e-mail or PM me along with the size you're interested in, and I'll put you on the notification list. These are available in 11/32" and 23/64".
Thanks! Tim @ Braveheart
neatest thing since Velcro !
Way Cool Idea!
I tried drilling by hand and hammering in a nail last year, but didn't work too good...8^)
This looks like the ticket.
Almost done!
Andy
11/32" = .34375" and the jig's hole digitally mic's at .347" and all my 11/32" shafts (poc, spruce, pine and ash) mic between .350 and .353 so they all needed a rubbing with 100 grit. i don't think there's an 11/32" shaft out there that measures much less than .350 due to both manufacturing criteria and moisture content. if ya finished the wood you can add at least a few thousandths more.
none of the above is a problem for me, and by taking the front end down i find that all points fit a bit better.
i drill down 2-1/8", taper the shaft for a point, cut off a 2" length of nail with a dremel carbide wheel (the nail foot weighed 59 grains), epoxy in the nail. one could use a larger diameter nail for more arrow weight, higher foc, and a friction fit; then wick in some thin cya to really strengthen the arrow's front end. rather than waiting for the epoxy to cure and use hot melt, i epoxied in the point, adding a small fillet of epoxy to smooth out where the point collar meets the shaft.
two thumbs up on the nail foot/foc jig - super quality and super easy to use. :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
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Glad to see your putting yours to good use Rob! :thumbsup:
We've decided to make subsequent jigs just a few thousands of an inch larger to accomodate more of the slight variances found in wood shafting.
Use this Metal Weight Calculator to determine the weight of different rod materials at different lengths. Your answer will be calculated in pounds. Take that number and multiply by 7000 to get the weight in GRAINS:
http://www.bostoncenterless.com/weightcalc.htm
You can go to a welding supply shop and get rods made of steel, brass, or tungsten to suit your needs in weight for your desired length. Steel will be the lightest, brass is a bit heavier, and tungten is heaviest. A 36" brass rod will do two dozen arrows at 1.5" footing lengths and is cheap. I went to my local welding shop who sells in bulk. The manager was an archer and gave me a handful of rods for free.
Best,
DB
Been doing this myself for the past few years. Being a machinist, I made my own jig that is identical to this one (I used square stock instead of round).
Brass rod is available at Lowes and Home Depot if you dont have a weld supply nearby.
BP
Sounds good Rob!
If people would be interested Braveheart may start stocking 1" and 2" lengths of 1/8" tungsten. One inch = 50 grains and two inch = 100 grains. This is the heaviest stuff I could find, it is also strong, you can't cut it with normal tools.
Andy
personally, i think going the tungsten route is a bit much. i'd rather just mic and match the drill bit with an iron or brass nail foot.
fwiw, reaming out the resulting jig hole with a slightly larger diameter bit, and going deeper, is pretty easy to do. i think getting upwards of 100 grains added front end weight is quite attainable.
OH Goodie, now I can ask!!
If the tungsten is 1/8", are there any thoughts or plans for a 5/16" guide?
Is 5/16 too small to work with?
Using the 9/64" bit supplied, you can insert anything about 1/8" and get a snug fit but still have room for glue to adhere. You can go deeper too, once you have used the jig, you set the jig aside and use the hole you just made with the jig to guide you deeper still, just be careful doing it.
Billy, no plans for a 5/16 just yet. We don't believe the demand would be strong enough to justify them, and I believe you'd need to go smaller with the insert as well, kind of defeating the purpose to some extent. Maybe we can look into 5/16" it further down the road.
Wrapping a 5/16 shaft with a layer or two of one-inch wide masking tape will give a tight fit in the jig. Can do the same thing to make a 11/32 shaft fit snugly into a 23/64 hole.
using the 11/32" jig with 5/16" shafts ...
my poc 5/16" test shaft measures an average of .319" at the business end. 1-1/2 wraps of 3m masking tape makes for a nice fit into the jig. drilled the nail hole, no problem - then reamed it out for a full 2-1/8" hole. the drill is .139" in diameter, the nail is .130" in diameter. tapered the shaft, epoxied in the nail and 100 grain field point. the raw shaft, cut for a perfect 29" length, digitially weighed in at 296 grains. after gluing in the footing, point and nock, the shaft (sans feathers and finish) weighs 465 grains.
this works very well, indeed - nothing tricky about using the 11/32" jig and a 5/16" shaft.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v82/rfdee/archery/DSC03744.jpg)
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We are going to up the size of the 11/32 jig to .358 up from .3437. From what we are seeing, it should be a good compromise, let me know what you guys think, feedback is always welcome!
Andy
makes sense to up the jig shaft diameter for 11/32" shafts. :thumbsup:
Rob,
If you like, send yours back to Tim and he will get you a new one sent out, this applies to anyone who is having trouble.
The only downside I see is if you do actually get a shaft that is a true 11/32, you may have to wrap it with tape or something, easier to do that than to sand I reckon!
I am also going to add a "step" at the very bottom of the hole (near where the drill bit comes through) so if you taper your arrow first, it should act as an alignment aid. You will still be able to use arrows without tapers, just as now, however, if you do get one that is a true 11/32 and you put your point taper on the arrow the step should hold it. The only draw back I have seen with tapering first is a little splitting right at the end where there is very little wood, if I go slow with a sharp bit it is minimized.
Thanks guys!
Lookin' forward to having a play!
Got mine tonight, tried it on about 50 shafts and only found two that didn't fit well. Maybe the drier climate here in Colorado? Drilled one that was already tapered and it worked great, get some time and I will find the right depth/weight/FOC for my setup.
Glad to hear it Vince! I think it is going to be a trade off as far as sizing goes, I think it will be easier for guys to wrap some tape or saran wrap on the arrow than to sand them down.....
Thank you!
Andy
Jigs are done! The tool supply store is supposed to have more bits in today, (bought them out) the jigs should ship later today or tomorrow morning.
Thanks everybody!
Andy
G'day fellows,
A thought occured to me as I pondered this front-loading business; it was while wondering if I could, even with the high spines available from www.surewoodshafts.com (http://www.surewoodshafts.com) , get an arrow stiff enough for my 80# @ 28", cut-past-centre Silvertip (the plate on which I have recently replaced with a much thicker piece of leather); so, my thought:
Could this jig also help load the rear of the shaft, like the GoldTip carbons allow for? Far less weight is required at the rear in order to stiffen the shaft than is required at the front in order to weaken it, according to the boys at Black Widow who've fiddled with this sort of thing a lot, and according to my mate Matt Wright who has rear-loaded his GoldTips in order to keep them stiff-enough and achieve a heavy arrow. So, has anyone tried this? Is there something inherently dangerous about the idea? If it is safe, it would be a big help to those of us silly-enough to shoot heavy bows and who want to shoot really heavy front-loaded arrows (my Douglas firs are doing really well with just 160 grains up-front, and I'm confident with them for anything in this country other than buffalo).
A penny for your collective thoughts, if you will.
Thanks,
Ben
By the way, I've never made my own wooden arrows, but am going to give it a go. So, if I have overlooked something glaringly-obvious, like nock-fit, please point out my error.
yes, years ago i rear loaded woodies with nails to stiffen up the spine. only took about 1.5" of 3/32" nail. this jig works great for loading either end.
That is a great idea Ben!
Andy
Ben that will absolutely work, and adding weight to the rear does stiffen an arrow up.
About the only down side is it would work against your FOC, but proper tuning and spine trumps FOC every time! :D
Tim, I think it might not work too much against the FOC, because, as I recall from watching the Black Widow tuning DVD, far less weight needs to be placed at the back in order to stiffen an arrow than needs to be placed at the front to weaken it.
So, for me and my heavy Silvertip, say if I got the heaviest-spined Douglas fir shaft, and put 150 grains up-front, and it was too weak, then 50 grains at the back may well strengthen it right-up, dynamically. So, I'd end-up with a total of 310 grains up-front including the broadie, and 50 grains plus the nock and feathers at the back.
Well, that's the theory as I understand it. It remains to test it, of course!
QuoteOriginally posted by Ben Kleinig:
Tim, I think it might not work too much against the FOC, because, as I recall from watching the Black Widow tuning DVD, far less weight needs to be placed at the back in order to stiffen an arrow than needs to be placed at the front to weaken it.
So, for me and my heavy Silvertip, say if I got the heaviest-spined Douglas fir shaft, and put 150 grains up-front, and it was too weak, then 50 grains at the back may well strengthen it right-up, dynamically. So, I'd end-up with a total of 310 grains up-front including the broadie, and 50 grains plus the nock and feathers at the back.
Well, that's the theory as I understand it. It remains to test it, of course!
you are correct, ben ,,, i'll repeat ...
only took about 1.5" of 3/32" nail.
Thanks, Rob! Boy, I'm looking forward to this!
Ok guys, I put one of these up one the St. Judes Auction #4, with tungsten.
I will be sending a few more out to Tim on Weds., by the end of the week I should have a stock of 100+ so order without fear!
Thanks for all of your support guys, especially you Tim, you have been a big help.
Andy
i gotta say, for a bowhunter that prefers the consistency of carbon, i've been footing (and even "tailing" - a "foot" for the nock end!) woodies like crazy ... completed near 2 dozen already. gets me back to my 1950's roots and the resulting nail footed arrows are *tough* enuf for roving.
if you love woodies, you've GOT to get one of these foot/foc jigs! :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
Love those Surewood shafts with a pc. of tungsten in them!
I haven't broke one stump shooting yet!
Thanks for your input Rob.
Andy
Rob,
Were you able to use the same spine arrow with the added 59gr. or did you have to up the spine wt.?
Denny
QuoteOriginally posted by longstiks:
Rob,
Were you able to use the same spine arrow with the added 59gr. or did you have to up the spine wt.?
Denny
29" arrow, holding 55# @ 29", no spine issue at all for me, with woodies, i typically use 11/32" 60/65# spine, and quite often i'll taper the last 9" down to 5/16" (which further reduces spine). on at least a few parallel 11/32" shafts i added "tail" weight at the nock end, about 35 grains, and as expected it stiffened up the arrow spine. however, i typically can shoot a very wide range of arrow spines from the same bow.
with this jig, you can really mess with ...
* increasing the front end "footed" shaft strength
* add foc
* increase the spine stiffness ("tailing" the shaft)
* and of course all of this increases the arrow's total weight
next up, i wanna try two footing tests - a 1/8" hardwood dowel, and a 1/8" rod of carbon fiber - to strengthen the front end without adding any negligible arrow weight.
it's just way too easy to use this jig and it seems i'm on a mission to drill out all of my dozens and dozens of woodies that have been asleep and neglected for years. :D
I was at Rob's yesterday and he showed me how it works...like he said "way too easy"....I'll own one very soon!
For those of you that have had time to try your jig already I am looking for some assistance.
I have picked up some 1/8 and I think 3/16 brass rod. I havent weight it out yet in inch sections but I will soon.
When I switched from a 160gr to a 190gr tip/broadhead I had to take one inch from my shaft that would equal a 3-5lb increase in spine.
My question is have you found that for a 30-50gr increase in weight up front have you had to increase 3-5lbs of spine to the shaft you are using. Knowing this and the weight of my brass of course will help me get into the ballbark when getting my new front loaded shafts ready for trial.
Hi Jack,
I've not found a mere 30 grains of weight equating to an inch of arrow unless I was weak to begin with. With most of my set ups, a jump from a 125 to a 160 gr head requires about a quarter inch, if I make any adjustments at all.
I am on the weak side I shoot a selfbow.
Forgot the Edit post isnt working. I must have been on the weak side with my shafts. I have been able to shoot a fairly wide spine range. I am planning on shortening up my shafts as well as front loading. If I wont need to change the spine in my shafts much for around 100gr of added front load weight that would be great. I think my problem will be that my ash shafts are already coming out in the total gr weight I like. I am hoping I wont have to change my shaft materal to keep the total weight down.
Thanks for the reply! I guess i'll just have to start playing with mine and see what happens :) .
Denny
longstiks, I like to say "The proof is in the shooting." Even though experience should give you an idea of what to expect, you don't really know how a particular set up is going to work till you actually try it.
UPDATE:
For those of you who really want to pack some weight up front, we'll have 6" 9/64" drill bits available soon for your convenience.
Will the longer bits be packaged with the jigs? I'm interested in picking one up when they are back in stock.
Keep in mind that you can't frontload woods indefinitely. There reaches a point where wood, cedar, for example, doesn't have enough spine to handle a really heavy front load. Folks in the moderate draw length (say 28 inches) and light and mid-range bow weights, say up to 55# or so, shouldn't have any problems. But when you get to longer draw lengths (29-30 ionches)and above that bow weight with a high performance bow, fast flite string, etc, cedar just doesn't occur in a high enough spine to handle a lot of front loading. I've been doing some experimenting with this. Don't know exactly where the limit is yet, but there definitely is a limit.
I got mine. very good jig. Marlon
Doug, the longer bits will be an option.
Orion, what if you were to add weight to the back of the arrow?
Jigs are being sent out in the morning (Sat.) I was going to send them today but it was my wifes birthday.....I also have plenty of stock for future orders.
Marlon, Thank you!
Andy
Martin Guy. I haven't tried adding weight to the back of the shaft as well as the front. Apparently, adding weight to the back stiffens the dynamic spine. So theoretically, one would get a little more spine out of a given arrow, but there may be some undesirable interactions/consequences with the front loading. Don't know.
Orion, point loading works great with the cedar and fir I've tried it with, but yes you'll need more spine if you get aggressive.
The fir is available in really high spines so it shouldn't be a problem.
UPDATE:
We have a good quantity of 11/32" jigs now in stock. We also have brought in 6" long 9/64 drill bits for those of you who wish to go deeper than the standard bit allows. :thumbsup:
They are at the link below:
Point Jigs at Braveheart Archery (http://www.braveheartarchery.us/new_page_26.htm)
the new 11/32" jigs work just great and will accommodate a fat 11/32" shaft down to a 5/16" shaft (if 2 or 3 layers of blue 3m tape are used).
i've drilled and loaded poc, fir, chundoo, ash and hex pine shafts - all were easy and the results are perfect. in my extensive field testing, this internal footing really beefs up the durability of any wood shaft.
imo, a 'must have' for any aficionado of wood arrows.
Rob, you may have stated it elsewhere ... did you poke your hog with these beefed up shafts?
Thanks,
Rich
QuoteOriginally posted by Firstarrow:
Rob, you may have stated it elsewhere ... did you poke your hog with these beefed up shafts?
Thanks,
Rich
for my hunt i used beman ics 500 carbons. it's been a long time since i've messed with woodies and my arrow confidence level for this hog adventure was much higher going with what i'm most familiar shooting.
i absolutely plan on assembling a dozen footed woodies (hex pines), testing and sorting, and using on a future hunt.
I have been building these for several years. Used to strenghthen shafts with bamboo skewers in this rocky terrain. We now use them to weight up the fronts and sometimes lighten up the tails to make them more dynamically stable.
I make them here on the airport in the machine shop out of scrap. they work so verry well and you can make an arrow blend with a bow. Gr8 idea whose time has come....